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Bashilir
05-19-2013, 02:18 PM
So, I was watching the Boston demo that we were shown awhile back for AC3 just to see how much was different. Well, I found something veey interesting. At 2:15 in the video, Connor walks near a patrol of Redcoats aaaand HE TILTS HIS HEAD. Like he's trying to cover his face from the patrol. I feel like this type of thing should've been in the final game. I also think that the button that you hold down for stealth(AC1 Monk mode) should return. Make it to where, when you get near people you can blend with, you can press the button(A for xbox and X for PS3) to automatically blend with them. I came up with this because, we all know in AC3 when you were in a chase, and you went to try to blend, Connor like.. it just is too slow. Lastly, I think if you were to hold this button down while just walking, the main protagonist would do little things while around guards. Like shown in the video. Thoughts and Diiiiiisssssssssscuss!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92SSQBIQ07k

SixKeys
05-19-2013, 02:27 PM
I remember how excited I was about that little detail. Makes no sense why they would take it out. Also, is it just me or does Connor's blending with the crowd last a lot longer than it does in the actual game? In the game as soon as you stop touching a nearby NPC you stop blending. Here he stays blended as long as he remains close enough to the crowd.

The part where Connor shoots the guy with the bow, in the final game all the guards around him wouldn't be lured towards the dead body but magically detect you as soon as the arrow hit.

Bashilir
05-19-2013, 02:30 PM
I remember how excited I was about that little detail. Makes no sense why they would take it out. Also, is it just me or does Connor's blending with the crowd last a lot longer than it does in the actual game? In the game as soon as you stop touching a nearby NPC you stop blending. Here he stays blended as long as he remains close enough to the crowd.

The part where Connor shoots the guy with the bow, in the final game all the guards around him wouldn't be lured towards the dead body but magically detect you as soon as the arrow hit.


Yeah! I noticed those things too. Alot of the mechanics in the game for stealth seemed very.. choppy? Like, how does shooting one guard with arrow on the ground while you're on a rooftop equal INSTANT detection? Anyway, I liked the new social stealth things they added in AC3 but... it needs some improvements.

AssassinHMS
05-19-2013, 04:56 PM
Yeah! I noticed those things too. Alot of the mechanics in the game for stealth seemed very.. choppy? Like, how does shooting one guard with arrow on the ground while you're on a rooftop equal INSTANT detection? Anyway, I liked the new social stealth things they added in AC3 but... it needs some improvements.

Some improvements? It needs to be scrapped, rethought and redone from zero. Social stealth was never perfect (get in a group of four people = instantly vanish?) but it was obsolete in AC3. First of all it was unreliable as you could be left exposed anytime without warning. Secondly, it was even more unrealistic since a huge bulky assassin carrying a bow could blend just by placing himself between two civilians. In the end, I never used social stealth in AC3 as it was impossible to do it without getting detected.
In order to successfully implement social stealth while keeping it realistic:
- The protagonist must act and look like everyone else around him, which means, no walking like a predator and no carrying noticeable weapons such as bows or even swords (unless concealed);
- The assassin can blend with groups of, no less than 8 people;
- Only "special" civilians (that require some kind of payment) can help the assassin blend without needing a huge crowd;
- It's easier to blend during nighttime or in dark places.

I'm curious to see what improvements AC4 will bring even though, right now, the game seems to be more focused on naval battles and action...

rob.davies2014
05-19-2013, 05:16 PM
Some improvements? It needs to be scrapped, rethought and redone from zero. Social stealth was never perfect (get in a group of four people = instantly vanish?) but it was obsolete in AC3. First of all it was unreliable as you could be left exposed anytime without warning. Secondly, it was even more unrealistic since a huge bulky assassin carrying a bow could blend just by placing himself between two civilians. In the end, I never used social stealth in AC3 as it was impossible to do it without getting detected.
In order to successfully implement social stealth while keeping it realistic:
- The protagonist must act and look like everyone else around him, which means, no walking like a predator and no carrying noticeable weapons such as bows or even swords (unless concealed);
- The assassin can blend with groups of, no less than 8 people;
- Only "special" civilians (that require some kind of payment) can help the assassin blend without needing a huge crowd;
- It's easier to blend during nighttime or in dark places.

I say, less naval battles and more stealth!

Great ideas! Weapons should be removable with implications for stealth. I think 8 might be a bit much, I think it could still seem realistic with 6.

AssassinHMS
05-19-2013, 05:34 PM
Great ideas! Weapons should be removable with implications for stealth. I think 8 might be a bit much, I think it could still seem realistic with 6.

Yeah, I typed 6 but decided to replace it by 8 just to make it even more realistic but I guess 6 would be enough...

I was also thinking about purchasable clothes and accessories that would help blending, such as:
- a cape that would cover pistols or throwing knives;
- long sleeves to conceal the hidden blade (like prowler's from ACB);
- special boots where you can place a knife in a hidden compartment.
The hidden blade bracer could also be modified along with the balde itself allowing for different types of assassinations and effects (allthough this has more to do with killing rather than blending with the crowd)

I wonder if the devs actually consider stealth as a core mecanic...

Rugterwyper32
05-19-2013, 05:59 PM
Yeah! I noticed those things too. Alot of the mechanics in the game for stealth seemed very.. choppy? Like, how does shooting one guard with arrow on the ground while you're on a rooftop equal INSTANT detection? Anyway, I liked the new social stealth things they added in AC3 but... it needs some improvements.

And the thing is, we can see a lot of mechanics were there, they just... cut them out because they ran out of space, I suppose? Even then, there's other things that could have been cut. I can see there were small elements that were there that would have really helped, and in the final version, they weren't and we got a choppier version of social stealth.
Again, I feel the devs have all the pieces when it comes to pretty much every element, but they don't put them in place. Rather than working on one big jigsaw puzzle, they're working on various smaller ones and not having enough time to finish them all which leaves them with various holes. That's the best way I can describe it.

SixKeys
05-19-2013, 06:25 PM
Yeah, I typed 6 but decided to replace it by 8 just to make it even more realistic but I guess 6 would be enough...

I was also thinking about purchasable clothes and accessories that would help blending, such as:
- a cape that would cover pistols or throwing knives;
- long sleeves to conceal the hidden blade (like prowler's from ACB);
- special boots where you can place a knife in a hidden compartment.
The hidden blade bracer could also be modified along with the balde itself allowing for different types of assassinations and effects (allthough this has more to do with killing rather than blending with the crowd)

I wonder if the devs actually consider stealth as a core mecanic...


I would bring it down to 5 people. The assassin would be the 6th, which is reasonable IMO. You also have to consider that there would always need to be at least a few of these blend groups around and having 6 or 8 people congregating on every street corner would be unrealistic. (It was already a bit odd in the Ezio games.)

In principle the idea of being able to blend with only a couple of people is good but like you said, it's not very reliable. I can't tell you how many times I've been in a chase and tried to blend with two NPCs standing next to each other, but for some reason the game doesn't count them as a blend group. The system shown in the demo looked much better: just keep close to any nearby NPCs and stay low profile and Connor would blend until he reached an area with no people.

I like your ideas about the clothing items. The problem is that notoriety is apparently gone now, so I don't know how a system like that could be implemented. My second concern is that if you simply bought all available accessories to conceal your identity, it seems like it would become almost impossible for anyone to detect you.

AssassinHMS
05-19-2013, 08:36 PM
I would bring it down to 5 people. The assassin would be the 6th, which is reasonable IMO. You also have to consider that there would always need to be at least a few of these blend groups around and having 6 or 8 people congregating on every street corner would be unrealistic. (It was already a bit odd in the Ezio games.)

The amount of people wouldn't be a problem since these big groups wouldn't be around every corner. Imagine you're being chased and, while trying to escape some guards, you hear the sound of music and people laughing. If you follow the sound, you'll discover people gathered around dancing, drinking and talking amusingly in some sort of festival. Even if you didn't break the line of sight, you can still blend with the crowd. The guards follow you but the noise and the large amount of people make it easy for you to break the line of sight and, while the guards lose themselves in the crowd, you simply walk away into an alley and disappear. Another variation could be a party being held in some mansion or even an opera (depending on the time period). These events wouldn't occur everywhere but there would be enough so that it would be likelly to find one of them when necessary. So you see, I'm not talking about small crowds in every corner like in previous AC games, I'm talking about huge crowds in a few locations (that would appear when a chase was triggered). The "special" citizens (that require payment) could also be used, although their primary function would be to traverse areas unoticed instead of hiding after a chase.


I like your ideas about the clothing items. The problem is that notoriety is apparently gone now, so I don't know how a system like that could be implemented. My second concern is that if you simply bought all available accessories to conceal your identity, it seems like it would become almost impossible for anyone to detect you.

If you don't buy any clothes and carry swords, crossbows,... , depending on your notoriety, guards would immediately detect you and try to corner you, however, if you have your weapons concealed, the guards will simply analyse you and will only detect you after some time (say 15 seconds). But, like you said notoriety would be required.
Also, if you're incognito guards won't detect you but, if you carry noticeable weapons, they will be more attentive and they will act if you bump a civilian or cause some sort of trouble.

Bashilir
05-19-2013, 09:32 PM
If you don't buy any clothes and carry swords, crossbows,... , depending on your notoriety, guards would immediately detect you and try to corner you, however, if you have your weapons concealed, the guards will simply analyse you and will only detect you after some time (say 15 seconds). But, like you said notoriety would be required.
Also, if you're incognito guards won't detect you but, if you carry noticeable weapons, they will be more attentive and they will act if you bump a civilian or cause some sort of trouble.

To add something, guards seriously need to react if you just start climbing a building. Like, the guards will just stand there and just look up at you like: "Guard 1: Huh, you don't think he's that one Assassin guy who kills important in our city, do you? Since, I heard that assassin can climb buildings." Guard 2: "Nah, he's just the only civilian in the entire city that climbs buildings."

pacmanate
05-19-2013, 09:50 PM
Yet another thing that didn't make the game. Why take this out?!

AssassinHMS
05-19-2013, 10:15 PM
To add something, guards seriously need to react if you just start climbing a building. Like, the guards will just stand there and just look up at you like: "Guard 1: Huh, you don't think he's that one Assassin guy who kills important in our city, do you? Since, I heard that assassin can climb buildings." Guard 2: "Nah, he's just the only civilian in the entire city that climbs buildings."

Exactly. I think challenges like these, not only make the world more believeble, but also make freeroaming more interesting and force the player to plan and think like an assassin.

Off topic: In order to improve the vertical travel and avoid guards spotting you while climbing, I was also thinking about some sort of grapple gun that the player could aim at the top of a building and fire a hook attached to a rope that would cling to a beam or to the roof, automaticaly lifting the player (could work as a replacement to the lift/lever introduced in ACB). It could be used during infiltrations as well. Imagine if the player wanted to infiltrate a well garded edifice through a window. The player decides to climb to the top of a building next to it. However, it was impossible to jump since the distance between the edge of the roof and the window was too big. With the help of a fellow assassin who would fire his grapple gun aiming at the window, the player could use it as a zip line and slide using a hook reaching the window unnoticed.



Yet another thing that didn't make the game. Why take this out?!

Because the devs cared more about naval battles and creating a huge world than about details or stealth. They had time and money to make an excellent AC game but they decided to make naval battles and create a huge world, among other things, in order to attract consumers, until they eventually ran out of time and delivered an unfinished game full of glitches. In other words they cared more about money than about the franchise.

Bashilir
05-20-2013, 12:31 AM
Exactly. I think challenges like these, not only make the world more believeble, but also make freeroaming more interesting and force the player to plan and think like an assassin.

Off topic: In order to improve the vertical travel and avoid guards spotting you while climbing, I was also thinking about some sort of grapple gun that the player could aim at the top of a building and fire a hook attached to a rope that would cling to a beam or to the roof, automaticaly lifting the player (could work as a replacement to the lift/lever introduced in ACB). It could be used during infiltrations as well. Imagine if the player wanted to infiltrate a well garded edifice through a window. The player decides to climb to the top of a building next to it. However, it was impossible to jump since the distance between the edge of the roof and the window was too big. With the help of a fellow assassin who would fire his grapple gun aiming at the window, the player could use it as a zip line and slide using a hook reaching the window unnoticed.

It's Batman! No, but I like this idea. Could make for some very fun role-playing while just running around once you've beat the game.



Because the devs cared more about naval battles and creating a huge world than about details or stealth. They had time and money to make an excellent AC game but they decided to make naval battles and create a huge world, among other things, in order to attract consumers, until they eventually ran out of time and delivered an unfinished game full of glitches. In other words they cared more about money than about the franchise.

Honestly, I think it would've been a better a idea to NOT give us Naval in AC3 and then SURPRISE ATTACK us with AC4's pirate setting.

Rugterwyper32
05-20-2013, 12:47 AM
Honestly, I think it would've been a better a idea to NOT give us Naval in AC3 and then SURPRISE ATTACK us with AC4's pirate setting.

I think they were too focused on the idea of make the revolution a central part of the game rather than a backdrop. The naval battles were a big part of the revolution, yes, but they shouldn't have been central to the game considering you spent most of the time on land. But they ended up trying to add more and more and that was part of it.
While some people may disagree with the naval focus in AC4, it makes perfect sense and an assassin game can still work perfectly with it around, the way I see it. On one hand, we've seen assassins past the Crusades do something else besides being just assassins, and on the other the setting wouldn't work without it. By all means, the Caribbean is a really good setting for the series, and the sea is pretty much central to it. I just hope that the devs have really looked back to AC1 to see what works and scaled back compared to the madness of AC3 trying to do as much as possible and biting more than it could chew.

Bashilir
05-20-2013, 12:53 AM
I think they were too focused on the idea of make the revolution a central part of the game rather than a backdrop. The naval battles were a big part of the revolution, yes, but they shouldn't have been central to the game considering you spent most of the time on land. But they ended up trying to add more and more and that was part of it.
While some people may disagree with the naval focus in AC4, it makes perfect sense and an assassin game can still work perfectly with it around, the way I see it. On one hand, we've seen assassins past the Crusades do something else besides being just assassins, and on the other the setting wouldn't work without it. By all means, the Caribbean is a really good setting for the series, and the sea is pretty much central to it. I just hope that the devs have really looked back to AC1 to see what works and scaled back compared to the madness of AC3 trying to do as much as possible and biting more than it could chew.

I agree with this ENTIRELY. It reeeeeeeally needs to go back to Assassins vs Templars. Not, Setting vs Assassins vs some templars that don't really do anything except sit in a bar and let Haytham do everything.

GreySkellig
05-20-2013, 02:57 AM
Off topic: In order to improve the vertical travel and avoid guards spotting you while climbing, I was also thinking about some sort of grapple gun that the player could aim at the top of a building and fire a hook attached to a rope that would cling to a beam or to the roof, automaticaly lifting the player (could work as a replacement to the lift/lever introduced in ACB). It could be used during infiltrations as well. Imagine if the player wanted to infiltrate a well garded edifice through a window. The player decides to climb to the top of a building next to it. However, it was impossible to jump since the distance between the edge of the roof and the window was too big. With the help of a fellow assassin who would fire his grapple gun aiming at the window, the player could use it as a zip line and slide using a hook reaching the window unnoticed.

Good grief, I sincerely hope this never gets implemented. I mean, the gadgets are all pretty historically implausible, and it's just good fun, but a grapple gun? Totally immersion breaking for me, especially considering we haven't invented an effective (high speed+small scale) grapple gun even with modern technology.


Because the devs cared more about naval battles and creating a huge world than about details or stealth. They had time and money to make an excellent AC game but they decided to make naval battles and create a huge world, among other things, in order to attract consumers, until they eventually ran out of time and delivered an unfinished game full of glitches. In other words they cared more about money than about the franchise.

Obviously the stealth needs work. Especially the social stealth. In all honesty, sometimes I forget about it entirely. It's that underdeveloped. I feel like we either need more hardcore cover-based stealth--and it seems we might be going that direction--or more thorough social stealth. But right now we have like a 50/50 split, which sounds great at first but ultimately means both are underdeveloped. That said, I don't think the answer was to cut out development time for locations or naval gameplay. I personally come to the franchise for the huge world, and I love the naval combat (as did many others). The stealth/story is obviously a big factor, and I recognize that it's the main draw for a lot of fans. But there are also plenty of fans who dig the franchise for the locations and the variety. I thought AC3 had the best world (imo) of any AC game so far.

That said, the devs definitely got too ambitious and released a game that had like an extra 10% left to go before completion. But I'm not sure it's disloyal to the franchise to focus on world development. In an ideal scenario there would be time to focus on both. And I don't even think it's a problem with the development cycle. I mean holy crap, look at AC3's economy system. Complicated, hard to use and few people like it. If the team had scrapped that idea to begin with, there would have been more time for the franchise pillars in need of some maintenance. In my eyes, the series needs to shed some flab, and that flab is not location development, but side activities. I love extra content and loads of detail, but at some point you have to say "Does it make more sense to add another series of in-game collectibles, or to try to fix the stealth?" There was a glut of side missions in AC3, and I am never going to play some of them because they're not fun. Give us a few good sidequests/activities and then get back to the core concepts. That's where I see the problem being.

twenty_glyphs
05-20-2013, 06:54 AM
AC3's stealth is in a sad state. They introduced a few more traditional stealth elements like hiding in tall grass and behind corners, but they don't work as well as traditional stealth-based games. Then they basically broke social stealth by removing obvious groups to blend with and replacing it with an unreliable system based on being close to 2 NPCs, who might happen to wander apart at any moment and leave you exposed. Then there's the awful, magical AI that can detect you no matter what. Stealth felt broken for me in AC3.

As for the social stealth, I wouldn't mind seeing a mix of the AC2 system with groups of 4 people that always stay together and the AC3 system of staying close to 2 or more civilians. The problem is, that system needs time to develop, playtest and refine so it works well and feels tight. They can't just throw hundreds of people at the game and solve major problems like this with more people. It takes time to refine a system like this, but the series desperately needs it.

Assassin_M
05-20-2013, 07:25 AM
People throwing around the idea of going back to the stupid mechanic of AC II`s blending, while completely ignoring how disastrous that can be for the realistic civilian AI AC III created....

I found a few great ideas I agree with, though...the blending button from AC I and how it could be re implemented and make total sense and even though shooting an arrow from a high place would automatically mean that you WILL be spotted in real life, it`s ultimately not fun and fun should ALWAYS trump realism..there`ll be this whiny, *****y group about stupid AI, but eh...we have whiny *****y groups anyway...

AC III`s social stealth should be kept as it is imo, (and I think those of you who say that it`s bad and crap and it should be scrapped, are terribly over reacting) but with tweaks...2 NPC blending makes sense in a market, or a crowded alley, but it shouldn't make sense in vast, open back buildings or empty areas..for those places, things like Haystacks, lifts and chase breakers would be great and make total sense

so it goes like this...in crowded areas. Benches and 2 NPC blending (w/o animation) would be possible...in empty places, there`ll be haystacks, chase breakers, lifts and corners...

with this tweak, the AI should be fixed...I`m unable to believe that they can`t find a middle ground. in AC II on wards, the AI is stupid...AC III the AI is psychic albeit realistic to an extent...I say combine the 2..as in..they shouldn't spot you when you`re quietly approaching from behind, but they should be able to spot you from logical points of view, for example...if you`re on a roof and the street below is wide and pretty much empty and you decide to shoot someone from there, the guards should spot you, but to keep it fun...there should be an interval of about 3.5 seconds of you getting out of the sight of guards on the street. Also, this should not prompt the entire city to be after you...just those who saw you..

I really REALLY hope we do not go back to the groups of crowds in AC II...it looked like the artificial tree branches in the frontier that so many people complained about....FAKE and it drives the AI away from innovation to civilian archetypes..

also, no...no batman hook crap...that`s a terrible idea..what the hell??

pacmanate
05-20-2013, 01:10 PM
I think AC2's blending is too unrealistic too, but in a crowd you should have the guards in search mode and have to come really close to you. Thats where the hand infront of the face animation would have worked really well. Why in a crowd would you still have to go between 2 people?

AssassinHMS
05-20-2013, 07:02 PM
Good grief, I sincerely hope this never gets implemented. I mean, the gadgets are all pretty historically implausible, and it's just good fun, but a grapple gun? Totally immersion breaking for me, especially considering we haven't invented an effective (high speed+small scale) grapple gun even with modern technology.


also, no...no batman hook crap...that`s a terrible idea..what the hell??

I saw it as a replacement to the lever (introduced in ACB) if used vertically and as a substitute to the zip line (in ACR) if used horizontally (with the help of another assassin), with the difference it could be used anywhere.
Anyway, it was just something that occured to me and I decided to share...

I also noticed that, in AC's multiplayer, stealth, in some ways, is much better implemented and much more relevant. When tailing someone it doesn't matter if you're out in the open or blending with other citizens as long as you keep some distance and walk/act casually and, while blending, the character responds and acts like other NPCs instead of freezing like in SP. AC's multiplayer seems to be better in so many ways than singleplayer, the lighting, the stealth, the weapons and characters designs, the details, the animations...

twenty_glyphs
05-20-2013, 07:34 PM
I also noticed that, in AC's multiplayer, stealth, in some ways, is much better implemented and much more relevant. When tailing someone it doesn't matter if you're out in the open or blending with other citizens as long as you keep some distance and walk/act casually and, while blending, the character responds and acts like other NPCs instead of freezing like in SP. AC's multiplayer seems to be better in so many ways than singleplayer, the lighting, the stealth, the weapons and characters designs, the details, the animations...

I haven't played multiplayer since Revelations, but I remember having a lot of fun with the social stealth in the multiplayer in Brotherhood and Revelations. The excitement and tension of hiding in a crowd, hunting for your target within that crowd and knowing someone else was hunting for you was a very fun and unique experience. When matches were played the way the game was intended, it was a blast. It was so rewarding to get spotted by your pursuer, then run around a corner, up a building, jump down the other side and blend back into the crowd. When it happened to lead to you spotting your target and taking them by surprise, all the better.

I wish they could bring that core social stealth feeling over into the singleplayer game somehow. I would have more fun if there were methods for stunning/eliminating guards who spot you like multiplayer instead of it always leading to large-scale combat. Perhaps the ability to simply stun a guard who spots you or is suspicious instead of killing them to prevent them from alerting other guards and triggering combat would be fun. I like the diversions from multiplayer as well, so it would be cool if you could hide next to someone who is dressed similarly (maybe other Assassin recruits already in the crowd?) and then prompt them to start running away from the crowd, drawing guards away from your location. There are a lot of cool social stealth elements from the multiplayer that would probably enhance the singleplayer experience if they were incorporated.

AssassinHMS
05-20-2013, 07:53 PM
I haven't played multiplayer since Revelations, but I remember having a lot of fun with the social stealth in the multiplayer in Brotherhood and Revelations. The excitement and tension of hiding in a crowd, hunting for your target within that crowd and knowing someone else was hunting for you was a very fun and unique experience. When matches were played the way the game was intended, it was a blast. It was so rewarding to get spotted by your pursuer, then run around a corner, up a building, jump down the other side and blend back into the crowd. When it happened to lead to you spotting your target and taking them by surprise, all the better.

I wish they could bring that core social stealth feeling over into the singleplayer game somehow. I would have more fun if there were methods for stunning/eliminating guards who spot you like multiplayer instead of it always leading to large-scale combat. Perhaps the ability to simply stun a guard who spots you or is suspicious instead of killing them to prevent them from alerting other guards and triggering combat would be fun. I like the diversions from multiplayer as well, so it would be cool if you could hide next to someone who is dressed similarly (maybe other Assassin recruits already in the crowd?) and then prompt them to start running away from the crowd, drawing guards away from your location. There are a lot of cool social stealth elements from the multiplayer that would probably enhance the singleplayer experience if they were incorporated.

Exactly! There are so many cool ideas in MP that would be a blast in SP. It would be fun if, while free roaming, there were enemies hunting us (maybe mercenaries hired by the families of targets we killed in assassination missions) and whenever they were close enough we would hear whispers like in MP. Also, if we sighted one of the family members while exploring the city, we could tail him/her by walking casually and avoiding unwanted attention like in MP and ambush the target while incognito or else a chase would be triggered.

Bashilir
05-20-2013, 09:38 PM
Exactly! There are so many cool ideas in MP that would be a blast in SP. It would be fun if, while free roaming, there were enemies hunting us (maybe mercenaries hired by the families of targets we killed in assassination missions) and whenever they were close enough we would hear whispers like in MP. Also, if we sighted one of the family members while exploring the city, we could tail him/her by walking casually and avoiding unwanted attention like in MP and ambush the target while incognito or else a chase would be triggered.


I don't know about the whispers... That seems kind've, that's one of those things that should only be in MP. It just doesn't make sense to hear whispers.