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View Full Version : Done for now, mostly due to two absurdly broken spells



robezdbobez
05-12-2013, 03:53 AM
I bet you can guess what they are :)

Puppet master

Time Jump

Pretty much impossible to lose as a good player after casting either of these. I'm not being bitter, just objective, having played CCGs since MTG since 1994.

Will probably start up again once they're tweaked. Would still be overpowered costing 8

robezdbobez
05-12-2013, 04:22 AM
I hover around 700 ELO, started as haven, still w/ it because of lack of good rares in the other factions in my pool.

DragoAskani
05-12-2013, 06:17 AM
They require 6 magic and 6 action points to cast. While they are pretty strong I would hardly call them broken. Puppet master is only strong if the opponent has strong creatures. Steal one of Kierans Wienies and he probably will hardly care. Time jump on the other hand is only good if you are in a winning position to begin with. (usually) I will admit to my own share of cheese wins by moving a couple creatures to an empty lane and then jumping. But really if they left the lane open alot of the times they probably would die to a blessed Pao in the lane as well. So shrug. We will see how/if they tweak the cards on may 28th.

Also Time Walk says Hi! http://www.bloglander.com/magic/wp-images/card_time_walk.jpg

Elementalist.
05-12-2013, 12:24 PM
Powerful but imbalanced not so much. Depends how you are playing and whether you have any counters. For instance if you have broken bridge or town portal or a pack of critters on the field puppet is not all that threatening. Path of ancestors might also help but I have mixed feelings about it.. :) Timejump is an impressive finisher and really depends on the flow of the game. If you can manage to keep your side of the field populated and take into account what units might be summoned or moved to another spot you will have better odds against it.

trupiciel
05-12-2013, 05:55 PM
I bet you can guess what they are :)

Puppet master

Time Jump

Pretty much impossible to lose as a good player after casting either of these. I'm not being bitter, just objective, having played CCGs since MTG since 1994.

Will probably start up again once they're tweaked. Would still be overpowered costing 8

Hi I just came here to say that I don't know you and I don't care.

NorsemanXXI
05-12-2013, 06:22 PM
None of those spells are overpowered right now.

If you keep playing and getting a deeper knowledge in the game, you will agree with me.

robezdbobez
05-12-2013, 07:26 PM
Hi I just came here to say that I don't know you and I don't care.

And yet you took the time to read the post and respond....

robezdbobez
05-12-2013, 07:28 PM
None of those spells are overpowered right now.

If you keep playing and getting a deeper knowledge in the game, you will agree with me.

I guess we'll see. But I think the bigger problem with the game is the 'yu gi oh' syndrome, whereby the epics (and some rares) are often so souped up in power level that it really requires the faction-specific version of them to be competitive. I get why this is the case, since they want to make money, but it's typically not a sustainable business model since it makes the barrier to entry higher and higher as more of these types of cards get made.

robezdbobez
05-12-2013, 07:29 PM
They require 6 magic and 6 action points to cast. While they are pretty strong I would hardly call them broken. Puppet master is only strong if the opponent has strong creatures. Steal one of Kierans Wienies and he probably will hardly care. Time jump on the other hand is only good if you are in a winning position to begin with. (usually) I will admit to my own share of cheese wins by moving a couple creatures to an empty lane and then jumping. But really if they left the lane open alot of the times they probably would die to a blessed Pao in the lane as well. So shrug. We will see how/if they tweak the cards on may 28th.

Also Time Walk says Hi! http://www.bloglander.com/magic/wp-images/card_time_walk.jpg

Thank god time walk was banned ;)

NorsemanXXI
05-12-2013, 09:44 PM
I guess we'll see. But I think the bigger problem with the game is the 'yu gi oh' syndrome, whereby the epics (and some rares) are often so souped up in power level that it really requires the faction-specific version of them to be competitive. I get why this is the case, since they want to make money, but it's typically not a sustainable business model since it makes the barrier to entry higher and higher as more of these types of cards get made.

It's true that there are some epic cards that are staples in most high end decks like Dark Assassin, Wolf Captain, Throne of Renewal, etc. Getting 4x of each it's just too random. People have been crying out for a trade system so hopefully that will happen in the future. Until then, I assure you that you there are many decks without epics that can get you up to 1300 ELO. You just need to be patient and keep increasing your collection and game knowledge slowly.

Check this site: http://www.mmdoc.net/decks/

The 2nd most rated deck is only commons and uncommons and can gets you easily into 1k+ ELO. However, there is really no point in wanting to get to that kind of ELO that fast because this game is really just about keep playing and increasing the collection, that should be the joyful part. If you like competition like myself, well, you'll have to be extra patient because right now is impossible to build the deck you want, you can only try build the best deck you can with the cards you got.

Frozen-Drake
05-12-2013, 10:32 PM
my 2 cents:
puppet master - thx to easy mass clears and cheap bounces, fat cratures are a no-go (except nergal and some sanctuary) so they can only steal a 4 resource creatures at max...
time jump - nice finisher effective only if you have the board full of creatures (kieran)

trust me, there are things more gamebraking than these 2 cards

robezdbobez
05-13-2013, 03:26 AM
It's true that there are some epic cards that are staples in most high end decks like Dark Assassin, Wolf Captain, Throne of Renewal, etc. Getting 4x of each it's just too random. People have been crying out for a trade system so hopefully that will happen in the future. Until then, I assure you that you there are many decks without epics that can get you up to 1300 ELO. You just need to be patient and keep increasing your collection and game knowledge slowly.

Check this site: http://www.mmdoc.net/decks/

The 2nd most rated deck is only commons and uncommons and can gets you easily into 1k+ ELO. However, there is really no point in wanting to get to that kind of ELO that fast because this game is really just about keep playing and increasing the collection, that should be the joyful part. If you like competition like myself, well, you'll have to be extra patient because right now is impossible to build the deck you want, you can only try build the best deck you can with the cards you got.


I appreciate the feedback, much appreciated. I think the other problem I have with cards like puppet master and time jump is that they're too swingy for a game like this, where there is zero countermagic. Seems like without hard or soft counters, more cards should stay in play, so that bounce can hit them. For example, no reason why puppet master couldn't enchant the target, and be bounced by the other player.

robezdbobez
05-13-2013, 03:27 AM
my 2 cents:
puppet master - thx to easy mass clears and cheap bounces, fat cratures are a no-go (except nergal and some sanctuary) so they can only steal a 4 resource creatures at max...
time jump - nice finisher effective only if you have the board full of creatures (kieran)

trust me, there are things more gamebraking than these 2 cards

Kieran certainly seems overpowered. What else?

It's too bad that fat creatures are essentially weeded out by the card pool. That seems like poor design to me.

macfloam
05-13-2013, 04:51 AM
Powerful but imbalanced not so much. Depends how you are playing and whether you have any counters. For instance if you have broken bridge or town portal or a pack of critters on the field puppet is not all that threatening. Path of ancestors might also help but I have mixed feelings about it.. :) Timejump is an impressive finisher and really depends on the flow of the game. If you can manage to keep your side of the field populated and take into account what units might be summoned or moved to another spot you will have better odds against it.

Why do people keep using this argument? Counters are supposed to be resource efficient (since they're conditional). I spend 4 resources to play the creature. You steal him for 6 resources (that's a +2 resource play for you since I lose a 4-resource creature and you gain one). The only way to get my creature back is with Town Portal or Broken Bridge. It's unlikely that I'll have both in my deck (one is a 3 Magic spell, the other a 3 Luck fortune). So on the offchance that I have one of 4 copies in my deck EXACTLY the turn you Puppet Master my creature, I've still spent more resources (which is bullsh*t since my counter requires perfect timing).

Make Puppet Master cost 5/5, but make it Ongoing. Increase the cost of all dispels by 1 and the problem is solved. Now, if you steal a 4-cost creature, it's a +3 resource play. If I dispel it, it's a +3 resource play for me. We've both spent 1 card each to arrive back at the situation we started with (the creature being under my control).

Time Jump is also ridiculous. People keep using the ludicrous argument that you need 6 magic and 6 resources to cast it, and that it can be blocked if the opponent has every single lane blocked. I'm sorry, but wtf do you think the player was doing up to that point with all that magic? They were using ridiculously OP AoE spells to wipe the board. It's not possible to play 4 creatures a turn every single round, but it is possible to wipe out that many (or more).

AoE spells, and control spells & fortunes are ridiculously OP, and this game will be terrible until they're balanced.

trupiciel
05-13-2013, 12:02 PM
Why do people keep using this argument? Counters are supposed to be resource efficient (since they're conditional). I spend 4 resources to play the creature. You steal him for 6 resources (that's a +2 resource play for you since I lose a 4-resource creature and you gain one). The only way to get my creature back is with Town Portal or Broken Bridge. It's unlikely that I'll have both in my deck (one is a 3 Magic spell, the other a 3 Luck fortune). So on the offchance that I have one of 4 copies in my deck EXACTLY the turn you Puppet Master my creature, I've still spent more resources (which is bullsh*t since my counter requires perfect timing).

Make Puppet Master cost 5/5, but make it Ongoing. Increase the cost of all dispels by 1 and the problem is solved. Now, if you steal a 4-cost creature, it's a +3 resource play. If I dispel it, it's a +3 resource play for me. We've both spent 1 card each to arrive back at the situation we started with (the creature being under my control).

Time Jump is also ridiculous. People keep using the ludicrous argument that you need 6 magic and 6 resources to cast it, and that it can be blocked if the opponent has every single lane blocked. I'm sorry, but wtf do you think the player was doing up to that point with all that magic? They were using ridiculously OP AoE spells to wipe the board. It's not possible to play 4 creatures a turn every single round, but it is possible to wipe out that many (or more).

AoE spells, and control spells & fortunes are ridiculously OP, and this game will be terrible until they're balanced.

But this game isn't terrible! It's fun!

Aegon82
05-13-2013, 12:58 PM
Why do people keep using this argument? Counters are supposed to be resource efficient (since they're conditional). I spend 4 resources to play the creature. You steal him for 6 resources (that's a +2 resource play for you since I lose a 4-resource creature and you gain one). The only way to get my creature back is with Town Portal or Broken Bridge. It's unlikely that I'll have both in my deck (one is a 3 Magic spell, the other a 3 Luck fortune). So on the offchance that I have one of 4 copies in my deck EXACTLY the turn you Puppet Master my creature, I've still spent more resources (which is bullsh*t since my counter requires perfect timing).

Make Puppet Master cost 5/5, but make it Ongoing. Increase the cost of all dispels by 1 and the problem is solved. Now, if you steal a 4-cost creature, it's a +3 resource play. If I dispel it, it's a +3 resource play for me. We've both spent 1 card each to arrive back at the situation we started with (the creature being under my control).

Time Jump is also ridiculous. People keep using the ludicrous argument that you need 6 magic and 6 resources to cast it, and that it can be blocked if the opponent has every single lane blocked. I'm sorry, but wtf do you think the player was doing up to that point with all that magic? They were using ridiculously OP AoE spells to wipe the board. It's not possible to play 4 creatures a turn every single round, but it is possible to wipe out that many (or more).

AoE spells, and control spells & fortunes are ridiculously OP, and this game will be terrible until they're balanced.

Those counters are really resource efficient. They cost 3 resources and 3 fortune/magic against a 6/6. And most important, they're not comditional because they are pretty good against an opp without puppet master.
It's a game changing spell for sure, but not so op until big creatures show up in the game. Until then, you're stealing a 3-4 resources creature, not a big deal.

About time jump, it's a great card, but it's a finisher. It's only useful the turn you are going to win. Until that turn it's almost a dead card in your hand. I play 2 in my Ariana deck and many times I would rather have another card in hand.

robezdbobez
05-13-2013, 07:14 PM
Why do people keep using this argument? Counters are supposed to be resource efficient (since they're conditional). I spend 4 resources to play the creature. You steal him for 6 resources (that's a +2 resource play for you since I lose a 4-resource creature and you gain one). The only way to get my creature back is with Town Portal or Broken Bridge. It's unlikely that I'll have both in my deck (one is a 3 Magic spell, the other a 3 Luck fortune). So on the offchance that I have one of 4 copies in my deck EXACTLY the turn you Puppet Master my creature, I've still spent more resources (which is bullsh*t since my counter requires perfect timing).

Make Puppet Master cost 5/5, but make it Ongoing. Increase the cost of all dispels by 1 and the problem is solved. Now, if you steal a 4-cost creature, it's a +3 resource play. If I dispel it, it's a +3 resource play for me. We've both spent 1 card each to arrive back at the situation we started with (the creature being under my control).

Time Jump is also ridiculous. People keep using the ludicrous argument that you need 6 magic and 6 resources to cast it, and that it can be blocked if the opponent has every single lane blocked. I'm sorry, but wtf do you think the player was doing up to that point with all that magic? They were using ridiculously OP AoE spells to wipe the board. It's not possible to play 4 creatures a turn every single round, but it is possible to wipe out that many (or more).

AoE spells, and control spells & fortunes are ridiculously OP, and this game will be terrible until they're balanced.

This is what I was getting at, but much more thorough/clear/illustrative. Puppet and time jump are both so tempo-generating by the casting player, for different reasons.

Dalakor
05-13-2013, 07:24 PM
Those counters are really resource efficient. They cost 3 resources and 3 fortune/magic against a 6/6
I'd just like to point it out that they're not all that efficient at all because for a 3 mana creature you're still paying 6 mana to reset the board to the condition before PM: 3 for the spell, 3 for the creature. You're breaking even for anything other than a DA at best (at worst you're down turns and AP).

r3tsa
05-13-2013, 07:48 PM
If you consider tempo generators then TP is even more powerful.

Aegon82
05-13-2013, 08:01 PM
I'd just like to point it out that they're not all that efficient at all because for a 3 mana creature you're still paying 6 mana to reset the board to the condition before PM: 3 for the spell, 3 for the creature. You're breaking even for anything other than a DA at best (at worst you're down turns and AP).

Your opp used 6 resources, most of the time his only play on the turn.
You on next turn use tp or bb for 3, and still can replay the creature or play another card instead.
AND if your opp don't steal your creature, you can also bounce his creatures, making it not only a "counter", but a good card by itself. Besides, for 3 resources you can bounce even a shi no shi...

I don't understand so many ppl complaining about puppetmaster, time jump, pao, da, wc... So you just don't want powerful cards? Just want them to be all same power level? That would make a really boring game. (maybe wc and kieran could be a bit worse than they are, the rest I think are fine..).

Dalakor
05-13-2013, 08:28 PM
If you really want to go there, the problems with puppet master are much larger than cost alone, but let's stick to costt: you used 6ap, i used 3 and i'm down a creature on the board. The question that matters is "can i use the creature?y/n" and the answer is no, if i want to, i have to pay more AP and endure summoning sickness again so basically all i do that turn is play my creature card; oh look exactly what he did except that usually if i'm the one deploying the creature i'm the one on the offensive and being delayed is a disadvantage. Back to resource costs, again unless you're PM->TPing a DA you're at equal resources spent (usually it's more).


TP is[...] a good card by itself
Yes it is, i never disputed it and i've made my opinions known on this matter already, no point in reiterating it here.


So you just don't want powerful cards?
Ideally? No. I want different cards, i want synergy, i want variation. I want less "play this card to always gain an advantage" and more "if you use this and this under this condition you gain an advantage" . Power should have an ingame cost not (only) an out of game one.

robezdbobez
05-13-2013, 08:57 PM
Your opp used 6 resources, most of the time his only play on the turn.
You on next turn use tp or bb for 3, and still can replay the creature or play another card instead.
AND if your opp don't steal your creature, you can also bounce his creatures, making it not only a "counter", but a good card by itself. Besides, for 3 resources you can bounce even a shi no shi...

I don't understand so many ppl complaining about puppetmaster, time jump, pao, da, wc... So you just don't want powerful cards? Just want them to be all same power level? That would make a really boring game. (maybe wc and kieran could be a bit worse than they are, the rest I think are fine..).

No I don't want boring cards, I'm saying the power jump from common/uncommon to rare/epic is not sustainable or a good business model, for reasons already mentioned. Second, CCGs require a relatively balanced metagame to be healthy. The two times when MTG didn't accomplish this historically, (urza's block and mirrodin block) people left the game in droves.

Aegon82
05-13-2013, 10:46 PM
PM is a great card. But no THAT overpowered. When playing rush deck vs a necro deck, it always hurts more an insect swarm or a curse or even an earthquake than this. The problem? PM always come after those spells... Think of a land with no IS, this would only steal a demented or liilm while you have 3 more creatures on board.
But I hope you agree with me, no need to leave the game because of this card, or ask for a worse version of PM.



No I don't want boring cards, I'm saying the power jump from common/uncommon to rare/epic is not sustainable or a good business model, for reasons already mentioned. Second, CCGs require a relatively balanced metagame to be healthy. The two times when MTG didn't accomplish this historically, (urza's block and mirrodin block) people left the game in droves.

Actually it's the perfect business model, every game uses it. If the best cards are the hardest to get, you will have to buy more packs to make a good deck...
Agree with the balanced metagame, maybe the solution is to remove the best neutral cards and make them faction aligned. Yup, talking about Pao for Stronghold and DA for Inferno. And maybe Trhone for Sanctuary? And Tower for .... need help here.. haven?
But definetely every game needs cards that are better than others, can't see the problem. Removing the best neutral cards, or even all neutral cards except maybe goldpile and such, would give this game more variation and would make the decks from different factions more unique.

P.S: actually the Mirrodin deck was really cheap to get, only had ravager as rare...

robezdbobez
05-14-2013, 01:40 AM
PM is a great card. But no THAT overpowered. When playing rush deck vs a necro deck, it always hurts more an insect swarm or a curse or even an earthquake than this. The problem? PM always come after those spells... Think of a land with no IS, this would only steal a demented or liilm while you have 3 more creatures on board.
But I hope you agree with me, no need to leave the game because of this card, or ask for a worse version of PM.




Actually it's the perfect business model, every game uses it. If the best cards are the hardest to get, you will have to buy more packs to make a good deck...
Agree with the balanced metagame, maybe the solution is to remove the best neutral cards and make them faction aligned. Yup, talking about Pao for Stronghold and DA for Inferno. And maybe Trhone for Sanctuary? And Tower for .... need help here.. haven?
But definetely every game needs cards that are better than others, can't see the problem. Removing the best neutral cards, or even all neutral cards except maybe goldpile and such, would give this game more variation and would make the decks from different factions more unique.

P.S: actually the Mirrodin deck was really cheap to get, only had ravager as rare...

Couple things
1-You're mixing my 2 points. On the one hand, the 2 periods of MTG that turned the people off from the game had nothing to do with rarity or cost. I was just showing the danger of having a degenerate cardpool.
2-It isn't a solid business model. In MTG and other successful games, rarity does not equate to inherently more powerful in almost all contexts. They're usually powerful but narrow, read Mark Rosewater's articles.
3-On the other hand, this game has the problem of having rare cards often acting as a power jump up over less rare counterparts. This is a terrible business model because as each new set comes out, the barrier to entry becomes greater for new players. Eventually new players have literally zero chance of winning over players with the uber powerful cards.

Dalakor
05-14-2013, 06:08 AM
Please remember that PM is a huge part of why you don't play big creatures, exactly because it's stupidly advantageous if you use it to steal a 5+ AP creature. Couple that with the fact that you literally need to steal utter garbage to not break even and the fact that it's not an ongoing you can dispel you've got a card that's not nearly as situational as it should be.

macfloam
05-18-2013, 07:34 AM
Aegon82, you're not doing the math right. Town Portal or Broken Bridge aren't countering Puppet Master. Countering it would put the creature back in play under my control. Since I have to replay him to negate the effect of Puppet Master, you need to add that to the cost, plus I've lost a turn since I can't use him right away. So even if you PM a 3-cost creature, my Town Portal + replay costs me 6, which is break-even. So my BEST CASE scenario is a break even. If you steal a 4-cost or better creature, or I don't have a TP or BB in hand, then PM gains a HUGE advantage. I've said it before: reduce PM to 5/5, but make it ongoing. Increase Dispel Magic to 2/2, and mass dispels to 3/3. Now if you play PM and I can't dispel it, you gain +3 resources. If I dispel it, you lose 3 resources, but still gained a 1-turn stall.

We all agree that some cards should be better than others, with rares being better than commons. However, that's not the problem. Which card is more desired: PM (rare) or Vampire Assassin (useless epic)? Is PM equally desirable as Vampire Lord (another rare)? How often have you heard someone say, "YES! Just got myself another Father Sky's Wrath!"? When getting a 4th Radiant Glory (common) is what excites you about the pack, rather than the Heroic Guard (epic), there's clearly something wrong with the card balancing!

Aegon82
05-18-2013, 05:06 PM
Aegon82, you're not doing the math right. Town Portal or Broken Bridge aren't countering Puppet Master. Countering it would put the creature back in play under my control. Since I have to replay him to negate the effect of Puppet Master, you need to add that to the cost, plus I've lost a turn since I can't use him right away. So even if you PM a 3-cost creature, my Town Portal + replay costs me 6, which is break-even. So my BEST CASE scenario is a break even. If you steal a 4-cost or better creature, or I don't have a TP or BB in hand, then PM gains a HUGE advantage. I've said it before: reduce PM to 5/5, but make it ongoing. Increase Dispel Magic to 2/2, and mass dispels to 3/3. Now if you play PM and I can't dispel it, you gain +3 resources. If I dispel it, you lose 3 resources, but still gained a 1-turn stall.

We all agree that some cards should be better than others, with rares being better than commons. However, that's not the problem. Which card is more desired: PM (rare) or Vampire Assassin (useless epic)? Is PM equally desirable as Vampire Lord (another rare)? How often have you heard someone say, "YES! Just got myself another Father Sky's Wrath!"? When getting a 4th Radiant Glory (common) is what excites you about the pack, rather than the Heroic Guard (epic), there's clearly something wrong with the card balancing!

What I'm trying to say it's that BB and TP are NOT puppetmaster counter cards. They are good cards by themselves, that ALSO happen to be good against PM.
So they shouldn't give you a better position or even equal position after you use them against PM because it's a plus on those cards, not their main utility.

Dispell on the other hand is a true "counter card", so it always puts you in a better position after playing it than opp. But it doesn't have any other use.
Cosmic and purge are also not just OTK counter cards.

About card balancing... That's the problem with every ccg. Rares should be more powerful than commons, but epics I think they should be "special", not an autoinclude for all decks, but a great card for some.

stevenyy
05-22-2013, 12:16 AM
What I'm trying to say it's that BB and TP are NOT puppetmaster counter cards. They are good cards by themselves, that ALSO happen to be good against PM.
So they shouldn't give you a better position or even equal position after you use them against PM because it's a plus on those cards, not their main utility.

Dispell on the other hand is a true "counter card", so it always puts you in a better position after playing it than opp. But it doesn't have any other use.
Cosmic and purge are also not just OTK counter cards.

About card balancing... That's the problem with every ccg. Rares should be more powerful than commons, but epics I think they should be "special", not an autoinclude for all decks, but a great card for some.

PM is broken because one card itself removes large portion of the visibility of playing high cost create cards.
TJ is a bit too strong because by game design u can not react to opponent's attacks and making one extra turn is just too much. You don't even need to have an empty lane, sometimes you can just use one turn the kill the blocker and TJ to win.

@macfloam making PM ongoing is definitely the right direction unless they want to rename it to deep copy or sth lol. Not sure how to handle TJ though, making it apply on only 1 creature might be too much nerf.

@Aegon82 card balancing is a problem for ccg, but yet needs to be done. epics definitely should be special, but can't be game breaking. Throne is an example.