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View Full Version : Just started playing Legend of Grimrock



forgottenl
04-29-2013, 08:38 PM
I had actually bought this game a couple of months ago in a GOG sale. Since it has been mentioned alot on this forum, I decided to give it a try. I played, but never finished Eye of Beholder or Dungeon Master, because I found the real time spell casting annoying. Though I've only tried out Grimrock for about 2 hours, I find the UI much much more pleasent than those old games. I also found the tile based movement fine. Granted, you are in a dungeon and not open space. I also read somehwhere that a reviewer compared the graphics of the MM10 demo unfavourably to those of LOGR. LOGR does have very good graphics. However, the graphics (At least so far) are very limited, because the enviornment has little variation. Just my 2 cents. Anyone else try it out and have an opinion?

cragthehacker
04-29-2013, 09:40 PM
I had actually bought this game a couple of months ago in a GOG sale. Since it has been mentioned alot on this forum, I decided to give it a try. I played, but never finished Eye of Beholder or Dungeon Master, because I found the real time spell casting annoying. Though I've only tried out Grimrock for about 2 hours, I find the UI much much more pleasent than those old games. I also found the tile based movement fine. Granted, you are in a dungeon and not open space. I also read somehwhere that a reviewer compared the graphics of the MM10 demo unfavourably to those of LOGR. LOGR does have very good graphics. However, the graphics (At least so far) are very limited, because the enviornment has little variation. Just my 2 cents. Anyone else try it out and have an opinion?

Yes, it is OK for what it is - a more modern rendition of the Dungeon Master/EOB style of gameplay.

What it ISN'T however, is something that evokes the Might and Magic series, and thus makes a POOR model to serve as inspiration for any CREDIBLE attempt at designing a Might and Magic game.

narupley
04-29-2013, 09:42 PM
Yes, it is OK for what it is - a more modern rendition of the Dungeon Master/EOB style of gameplay.

What it ISN'T however, is something that evokes the Might and Magic series, and thus makes a POOR model to serve as inspiration for any CREDIBLE attempt at designing a Might and Magic game.

Agreed. Comparing Grimrock and Might & Magic is like comparing apples and oranges.

iprigg
04-29-2013, 11:24 PM
Agreed. Comparing Grimrock and Might & Magic is like comparing apples and oranges.

Though, you should note that there are people who like oranges more than apples and other who do the opposite!

narupley
04-29-2013, 11:28 PM
Though, you should note that there are people who like oranges more than apples and other who do the opposite!

Umm, exactly, that's the whole point of the expression.

Quietus87
04-30-2013, 08:21 AM
Grimrock is brilliant, although I like turn based combat better in case of tile based crpgs.

GrakorTheOrc
04-30-2013, 08:25 AM
I didn't like Grimrock too much. Something about the character creation and development was way too simplistic for me, since it all boiled down to "I am tougher" or "I hit harder." Combat also felt really...exploitive, seeing as most of the time I was just dancing around enemies, taking advantage of the fact that it takes some time for enemies to turn around.

Wasn't my style, to say the least. I prefer more depth to my RPGs that Grimrock was simply lacking.

forgottenl
05-01-2013, 08:05 PM
I'm still enjoying it, though I find about an hour or so of gameplay for me is enough at one time. The exploration of the dungeon is great, but I'll agree that combat isn't THAT tactical and the simple character development doesn't give me that feeling that I can't bear exiting the program that Might and Magic games do.

iprigg
05-02-2013, 11:23 AM
I'm still enjoying it, though I find about an hour or so of gameplay for me is enough at one time. The exploration of the dungeon is great, but I'll agree that combat isn't THAT tactical and the simple character development doesn't give me that feeling that I can't bear exiting the program that Might and Magic games do.

With all the respect, what do you mean "isn't THAT tactical". Playing at hard level, I remember, that you cannot stand a single second in face to face combat. You have to move contineously, hide behind walls, avoid corners (though there is a particular encounter, with several enemies in later levels where you struggle to reach a corner, in order to avoid enemies coming from all side), backstab if you are quick enough. How much more tactical could it be? Not only is tactical, in my opinion, but it is too tactical and in real-time, which makes tactics much more difficult to be enforced!

MagixJonsn
05-02-2013, 11:57 AM
With all the respect, what do you mean "isn't THAT tactical". Playing at hard level, I remember, that you cannot stand a single second in face to face combat. You have to move contineously, hide behind walls, avoid corners (though there is a particular encounter, with several enemies in later levels where you struggle to reach a corner, in order to avoid enemies coming from all side), backstab if you are quick enough. How much more tactical could it be? Not only is tactical, in my opinion, but it is too tactical and in real-time, which makes tactics much more difficult to be enforced!

It isn't tactical in an RPG way because your survival solely depends on how quick you push buttons and move around. That's like playing a shooter, Skyrim, Unreal Tournament or Counterstrike. In Wizardry 8 for example: your success in combat never depends on how quick you act, but which actions you choose.

iprigg
05-02-2013, 03:52 PM
It isn't tactical in an RPG way because your survival solely depends on how quick you push buttons and move around. That's like playing a shooter, Skyrim, Unreal Tournament or Counterstrike. In Wizardry 8 for example: your success in combat never depends on how quick you act, but which actions you choose.

Well, I do not think it is not a matter of reflexes, it is a matter of combat strategy. You do not need to be fast in Grimrock. enemies are not such fast and after all there is a certain delay both in movement and "reloading" of weapons. But to know where you should encounter an enemy, for example to avoid corners when you fight crabs or to select them when there are too much enemies surrounding you, or even know which spell to cast before the combat to prepare for a large battle, or during the combat, before your mana empties. Grimrock is unique in tacticality, exactly because the constraints I mentioned before (in movement and availability for hitting) are there, also because you do not have hot keys to cast spells or throw fireball potions, at will. You have to live with the constraints imposed by the interface, which is much more relasitic, since in real life you would have to go in your backpack in order to find the postion and use it. Combat in Grimrock does not need reflexes, it needs strategy. No matter how fast you are, if you are not prepared for a battle you will be dead in a few seconds!

HEF2011
05-02-2013, 03:56 PM
It isn't tactical in an RPG way because your survival solely depends on how quick you push buttons and move around. That's like playing a shooter, Skyrim, Unreal Tournament or Counterstrike. In Wizardry 8 for example: your success in combat never depends on how quick you act, but which actions you choose. No. Tactical as in where your character is positioned on the grid with regards to your next respective turn. Tactics is all about positioning. When you're talking about a shooter, yes indeed there are tactics involved but it's more about 'action' when you are talking about how quick you move around and push buttons.

forgottenl
05-02-2013, 07:50 PM
In turn based strategy you need to make decisions like "do I concentrate fire on the mage, or try to take down the fighter in front of him first, so I can beat the stuffing out of him with all of my characters?" In games like Grimrock, it is like do I continually move backwards or try to circle around an opponent. Both can be fun, but the former appeals more to my sense of realism and consious desicion making. For that reason I "feel" that the former is "more tactical," even though I do understand the argument that LOGR combat needs to be well thought out to be successful.

iprigg
05-02-2013, 11:17 PM
No. Tactical as in where your character is positioned on the grid with regards to your next respective turn. Tactics is all about positioning. When you're talking about a shooter, yes indeed there are tactics involved but it's more about 'action' when you are talking about how quick you move around and push buttons.

But you can't have positioning in first person rpgs, only with isometric rpgs you can do this!!!
I repeat in Grimrock combat mechanics are not influenced by how fast you move around or push buttons. You cannot move faster than the mechanics allows you (thanks to tile-based movement), no matter how fast you press the buttons.
Moreover, you cannot hit an opponent faster than what combat mechanics allow you. Due to its real-time nature, the only thing you should do, is decide fast where to go, which weapons to use , which spells to cast, and which items to use. You have to be fast in thought, not in hands.
if you have managed to unlock Toorum's mode, then you will understand what I mean. Toorum moves and hits twice as fast as regular characters. There you will see how combat tactics are completely different.

Shooters on the other hand, need reflexes and quickness in hand. This is greatly accounted to their free movement style!
But Grimrock is another story! Completely different.

HEF2011
05-03-2013, 05:57 AM
But you can't have positioning in first person rpgs, only with isometric rpgs you can do this!!!
I repeat in Grimrock combat mechanics are not influenced by how fast you move around or push buttons. You cannot move faster than the mechanics allows you (thanks to tile-based movement), no matter how fast you press the buttons.
Moreover, you cannot hit an opponent faster than what combat mechanics allow you. Due to its real-time nature, the only thing you should do, is decide fast where to go, which weapons to use , which spells to cast, and which items to use. You have to be fast in thought, not in hands.
if you have managed to unlock Toorum's mode, then you will understand what I mean. Toorum moves and hits twice as fast as regular characters. There you will see how combat tactics are completely different.

Shooters on the other hand, need reflexes and quickness in hand. This is greatly accounted to their free movement style!
But Grimrock is another story! Completely different. Agreed. You'll get no argument from me regarding gameplay mechanics.;)

MagixJonsn
05-03-2013, 08:18 AM
But you can't have positioning in first person rpgs, only with isometric rpgs you can do this!!!

Yes you can. Wiz8 had a radar, in which you could change positions of party members. This way you could arrange tanks in away they protected the archers/wizards and you could also directly assign "protect"-commands. Your combat success also depends on which enemy you choose to attack and with which weapon or spell you go next. However I think that Wiz8 was very mature compared to most (if not all) other first person party based roleplaying games anyways (except combat speed).

But everything was without stress and without push-button-fast skills (yes the combat in Grimrock is like that... a stressful, annoying step-dance).

forgottenl
06-05-2013, 08:04 PM
I've now advanced to level 10 of the dungeon and think I've played a good portion of this game. I've got mixed feelings about the game still. The UI is much improved over the Eye of the Beholder and the original Dungeon Master, and so are the graphics. I'm getting very tired of everything looking the same though. Yes, the tiles are beautiful, but there is very little variety. Also is far as monsters go, not all that much variety. Equipment and the RPG system are very basic. The puzzles do have a lot of variety, though a few of them really are about button mashing more than thinking. I've got to say, as much as I am thankful that this game's success lead to the development of Might and Magic X, I'll be glad if MM10 turns out to be very different from Grimrock.

Gribbish
06-05-2013, 09:01 PM
Well, I do not think it is not a matter of reflexes, it is a matter of combat strategy. You do not need to be fast in Grimrock. enemies are not such fast and after all there is a certain delay both in movement and "reloading" of weapons. But to know where you should encounter an enemy, for example to avoid corners when you fight crabs or to select them when there are too much enemies surrounding you, or even know which spell to cast before the combat to prepare for a large battle, or during the combat, before your mana empties. Grimrock is unique in tacticality, exactly because the constraints I mentioned before (in movement and availability for hitting) are there, also because you do not have hot keys to cast spells or throw fireball potions, at will. You have to live with the constraints imposed by the interface, which is much more relasitic, since in real life you would have to go in your backpack in order to find the postion and use it. Combat in Grimrock does not need reflexes, it needs strategy. No matter how fast you are, if you are not prepared for a battle you will be dead in a few seconds!

Actually Grimrock DOES need reflexes... get a moderate case of arthritis, and see how well you handle some of those mid-to-late-game fights in grimrock. Turn-based is pretty much a Necessity for me, these days. I was able to only get so far in grimrock as a result... not through any deficiency in my tactics, but purely from an "I can't hit those buttons fast enough" point of view.

I had my kid get me through some of the fights, before hanging up the game as a lost cause, since I was unable to enjoy it further due to the real-time combat system.

--Gribbish

iprigg
06-05-2013, 11:56 PM
Actually Grimrock DOES need reflexes... get a moderate case of arthritis, and see how well you handle some of those mid-to-late-game fights in grimrock. Turn-based is pretty much a Necessity for me, these days. I was able to only get so far in grimrock as a result... not through any deficiency in my tactics, but purely from an "I can't hit those buttons fast enough" point of view.

I had my kid get me through some of the fights, before hanging up the game as a lost cause, since I was unable to enjoy it further due to the real-time combat system.

--Gribbish

Sorry pal! But reflexes means to be quick. Despite the arthritis you say you got, this is not because you exercised your reflexes but merely because you have to move continuously in order to survive. Endurance is what you lacked not reflexes!!!

forgottenl
06-06-2013, 05:07 PM
Sorry pal! But reflexes means to be quick. Despite the arthritis you say you got, this is not because you exercised your reflexes but merely because you have to move continuously in order to survive. Endurance is what you lacked not reflexes!!!

I've got to disagree with you iprigg. Some of the puzzles especially require reflexes. The one at the end of the 7th level where you need to block the three heads shooting spectral balls to get through the iron door is a perfect example for me. I tried that one twenty-thirty minutes before giving up on it. I knew where I had to be when, but simply did not have the hand to eye coordination or speed to hit all of the keys at exactly the correct moment.

iprigg
06-06-2013, 08:50 PM
I've got to disagree with you iprigg. Some of the puzzles especially require reflexes. The one at the end of the 7th level where you need to block the three heads shooting spectral balls to get through the iron door is a perfect example for me. I tried that one twenty-thirty minutes before giving up on it. I knew where I had to be when, but simply did not have the hand to eye coordination or speed to hit all of the keys at exactly the correct moment.

It's the only puzzle, that it does require good reflexes. Note, though, that it is not a matter of reflexes only, it is impossible to pass this puzzle if your game frame rate is not adequate. Especially if you do not have a state of the art machines, it is impossible to do it. Personally, I had to reduce all graphics details and set the resolution to the lowest in order to get it.
However, what I was referring in my previous post was combat. I insist that reflexes play no role when fighting monsters. All you need is to be prepared, especially in large battles not stand still, and have a good tempo when hitting, so that you get to hit again when your party members become available again. Note that I played Grimrock on the hard difficulty level, I suppose that in others levels you do not need so much movement.

Mirae11
06-07-2013, 05:23 PM
Comparison of MMX to Legend of Grimrock will be there until they send out closed beta and there will be some kind of REAL gameplay footage. I really hope that MMX will not be that much comparable with Grimrock, because it will be something totally different. That is my wish. If those two games will be comparable, MMX will not be able to find on the market hole big enough to make profit and therefore another sequel or remake.

For the Grimrock - I grew tired of the repetitiveness when I was on the 6th or 7th floor. Combat was almost always the same and imbalanced characters (having two spears attack two times each from behind and daggers in the front) made game too easy even on hard difficulty (mainly due to ability to dodge enemies all the times). Some puzzles were tricky, but I do not think that puzzle based on "finding two right bricks" are not good. Being stuck for 5 minutes just because you missed slightly different rock is not entertaining. If there will be puzzle in MMX (should be, it is MM), they should be done in a more sophisticated way.

forgottenl
06-16-2013, 03:41 PM
I just finished. At least the graphics on the bottom floors were different. I was amazed though to see the game was made by a team of 7 (from the final credits.) The game had no voice acting, few portraits et. Basically all the development money went into gameplay, and still the game turned out succesfully. While it will never be one of my favourites I'm still impressed with how much game they were able to put together with a small team and shoestring budget.