View Full Version : The Foistie way of Killing Opponents, Dealing With Lag and Being Called a Cheater

04-25-2013, 12:57 AM
The Foistie way of Killing Opponents, Dealing With Lag and Being Called a Cheater

Background Regarding Personal Observations: While I have played the game since it came out (first the missions and then coop), I have spent the past four months playing PVP. Sometime during month two to three, it all began to click. Playing every day didn’t hurt either. As background, I haven’t done FPS PVP since the old BF 1942 game (roughly 10 years ago) so I had to re-learn how to play in a number of areas, most notably ‘shooting from the hip’ and no longer being able to ‘go prone’ on the ground to reduce your target area. Every old habit had to go.

By way of example, during the first two months of my FarCry PVP experience, my kill to death ratio was a dismal 0.70x. Once I figured out what I was doing, my average (including those dismal months) is much higher though modest at 1.53x while this number includes those bad months and very high number of ‘learning curve’ deaths. Today my average per game is much higher than that when you just look at each current game. So in essence I’ve gone from a noob player to a good or better than average player, whichever you prefer.

That all began to change when ‘a.’ I Stopped playing Coop and Missions, ‘b.’ I focused on and leveled up one or two guns, and ‘c.’ I finally understood shooting from the hip was superior to aiming down the barrel. Pretty basic stuff, but hey it’s been a long time since BF 1942. For anyone interested, the following are my thoughts and conclusions regarding PVP in its current state. Note also that these comments apply only to the ‘Ubi’ generated PVP maps and not to ‘Player’ generated maps:

Shoot from the hip and toss the scope: In PVP, the scope is not your friend. Get rid of it, choose better loadouts (discussed further below) shoot from the hip. When necessary for long shots, learn to shoot from the basic barrel sights. Otherwise close on your opponent and shoot from the hip. I will admit early on that as I started playing PVP, it took me a month to even notice or ‘see’ the red ‘target reticule’ that appears with hip shooting. One final note, I continue to be surprised when I run out of ammo, pick up a dead enemy’s gun and find a scope attached.

Never stop running: …or you will die and die often. The stationary target is also the dead target. These are small maps after all, designed for close in tactical fighting.

Your Primary Weapon: Understand that for the ‘Ubi’ PVP maps, the small/close in map design favors SMG’s and to a lesser extent Assault Rifles. LMG’s, shotguns, and long guns are generally ineffective and are limited to certain areas of the ‘Ubi’ designed PVP maps. The person using a bazooka will typically get a kill only as often as his “Survival Instincts” is up (because he died a lot already) and he can see you coming. After your Primary weapon/rifle, in my opinion, your secondary weapon should be your hand gun and under limited circumstances the bow. The hand gun is underrated but highly effective when your primary weapon is out of bullets or you are reloading but need to quickly take out a nearby opponent first. It also has a surprisingly long (and unrealistic) range, possibly so that it can be used effectively on zip lines.

Don’t get caught standing/moving ‘in line with’ or ‘near’ your teammates: It’s always fun to catch three or more players standing or moving almost in a direct line as my strafing bullet discharge will take them down as one. Grenades thrown properly generate equally massive kills when dealing with the grouped up enemy. My favorite grenade moment was a six kill grenade thrown into a tunnel. As a side note, I also killed myself as I continued into the tunnel while shooting…Simply put, don’t bunch up or stand/move in line with each other. Right or wrong, the better players are loners and/or create a certain amount of distance from their teammates.

Know when and when NOT to revive your teammates: Contrary to popular belief, no one is obligated to revive a mate, although it makes sense to know when to revive and when not to do so. Firstly, it makes no sense to charge into a ‘potential’ killing zone and die, or die as you revive your mate (who also usually just dies again). How many times must that scenario occur before you learn the lesson? In fairness, it took me at least two months as I wanted to save everybody ;-).

Instead, when you have a downed mate, go in expecting opponents to be waiting for you. You will usually not be disappointed. Locate and kill all of those localized opponents and then (and only then if it makes sense) revive your team mate. Most of the time it is a very poor strategy to revive someone unless you know what is going on around you. To date, I have revived 2,362 people (this includes coop, can’t separate the two) while I estimate that about half of that number have been in PVP. I would say that I have regretted it as a poor decision at least 60-70% of the time.

Having said that, it usually makes sense to revive someone when you are holding or taking a flag (For example in Domination) and you need extra defenders. When you revive someone in this situation, it allows one of you to hold the spot and the other to move out a bit and search for incoming opponents. This also provides an early warning signal that someone is coming your way when either you or your mate attracts gunfire.

LoadOuts: In my opinion, your load out choices should be designed around speed, speed and more speed. Increase your running speed (via Speed Burst and Haste); increase your shooting from the hip speed (via Snap Shooting); increase your aiming speed (via Ranger’s Mod) and increase your ability to quickly dodge those who have you in their sights by jumping, weaving and bobbing in any order you deem fit.
Your very best weapon loadout friends are a ‘larger magazine’ and the ‘muzzle’. The larger magazine should be self evident (less loading, more killing). Regarding the muzzle, you become a semi-silent killer, able to take out multiple targets before they even know what is hitting them. Newer players don’t react to muzzle shots like they do when they hear a regular gun go off. Better players expect to hear muzzled shots and react differently, knowing that death is near at hand.

A note on jumping: This upsets some people and I do not understand why. Note that the ‘jump’ key is a key and a setting in the game; therefore enough said. Use it often, use it well, and use it to your advantage. If it upsets people, so be it. Remember it’s their problem not yours. And the problem is usually that they want you to stand still so they can kill you. Better players adapt by simply aiming higher and aiming faster (remember they have also pre-chosen the right loadouts to aim faster) and pick the jumping player right out of the air. I have heard some complain that it creates lag. So far as I can see, lag seems no better or worse than the lag you get with people using their knives or shooting their guns through lag. Having said that, if lag is an issue solely related to jumping (doubtful), then it is Ubi’s problem to solve either by fixing the lag issues or by eliminating the ‘jump’ button as part of the core game.

Closing on an opponent in open areas: In this scenario, somebody usually has the jump on you, they are behind or flanking and you have no cover. In this case, turn/twist to face you opponent and always (stress on ‘always’) move or jump to YOUR ‘right’ (which is their left) while closing on your enemy. Most opponents will strafe shoot to THEIR ‘right’ (which is your ‘left) as most players move in that manner when they are hit. Average opponents will also stand still and try to hit you rather than stay on the move. This is to your advantage as you close on them. Hold your fire completely as you close to maintain your closing speed; but once you close to the maximum range of your gun limits, fire away. Much of the time, the opponent will literally stop firing (to conserve ammunition), stop moving (to try to line up a perfect shot), and wait too long to open up again.

Dealing with Lag: I am no expert here but I do know that if my ping is ‘red’ I’m going to try to find a better lag free game. Otherwise, you end up shooting an enemy at point blank and missing him. Or you see people who appear to go through walls, or jump and knife from a great distance. Or you see opponents who appear to not even aim at you or in your direction. In reality, it’s not them, it’s you. You are lagging. ‘Yellow’ is fine and ‘green’ is a rarity but fabulous when you can get it. Note when you are ‘green’ how clean (and fast) knifing is and how accurate your gun shots become. It makes you realize how great this game could be lag free…

Comments on ‘Cheating’: One of the biggest problems here is the inability by Ubi to deal effectively with cheaters. My previous comment is not meant to ‘rail’ against Ubi, just to state the case. Because of this conundrum, average players constantly accuse good and great players of cheating which is equally inexcusable. This occurs mainly because they do not understand ‘a.’ How loadouts affect performance (i.e. speed boosts, loadout for aiming from the hip, etc.) and ‘b.’ How lag can make opponents on the move look like they are doing things that are impossible. Consider:

1. During my first month of PVP, I noticed players who would seemingly jump across the room/area and knife me. Over time I understood that this was ‘lag’ while the player (with a better ping) was much closer, jumped at me and then knifed me while I was trying to play through terrible lag.

2. I would notice that certain players did not appear to even aim and shoot in my direction but still killed me or ‘one shot’ me. They didn’t even seem to be faced in my direction. It felt like a cheat but it was just lag. Get out of those ‘red ping’ games!!!

3. I would notice how certain players seemed to move at the ‘speed of light.’ It occurred to me to look closer at the load outs, especially speed boost. I chose that setting and the next time I saw that particular opponent begin to move ‘fast’, I had a teammate close enough to me to use/trigger my own ‘Haste’ speed boost. Lo and behold the aforementioned opponent was slow again (in reality I was faster) and I was able to stay behind him and eventually take a shot (missed and he still killed me on the rebound). But the next time I didn’t miss, or the time after that.

4. Over time I began to notice that all (or most) of those good players I suspected of cheating kept on the move, knew the maps and made fabulous intuitive AND educated choices as they went. This is when I moved from viewing them as potential cheaters to just simply ‘good’ players and at times, ‘great’ players.

5. It is such a temptation to call people ‘cheaters’ in the game when you are getting owned over and over again by the same player. During my first two months of play, I was sorely tempted to make accusations. The closest I got to accusing someone of cheating was by saying: “Man (players name), you don’t ever miss do you?” His immediate response was along the lines of “That’s because I use the ‘never miss the noob’ cheat”. His irony was not lost on me and he certainly made me think differently; which was his point. That’s when I began to watch how he moved, how he kept on the move, how he never stopped moving.

6. Good players must have a thick skin. If you are good, you will be called a cheater; constantly it seems. Or until the next game when you might suck due to normal game dynamics (different map, a few different better players, different team players, a poor ping, etc.). Now I will admit that I don’t have a thick skin here and I tend to defend myself by pointing out the obvious to the player making the comment. But really, this just upsets them even more. It does stink that we have to play in this type of environment; an environment where the non-cheaters take more abuse than actual cheaters who don’t care anyway and seem to love all of the negative attention. To me, reputation matters, always.

7. I also noticed that when I would round a corner there was a guy waiting for me, already shooting, dead. If they had a bad or average score, I accepted that they probably had ‘Survival Instincts’ up at that point in the game. But then I began to see the ‘better player’ aspect here.

More importantly, I began to realize that the good players ‘Expected’ somebody to come around or be on the other side of that corner. Why? Because they know the map and the map dynamics. They weren’t just thinking that ‘maybe someone was there’. Instead, they expected someone to be there. Not only that, since they also ‘know the tendencies of each player’, they also expect YOU to be rounding that corner. Why? Well, because they know…YOU!

Know both your Opponents and Teammates: Before the game begins and while the game loads, good players study all of the players in that game room. Once the load begins, and the teams are determined, study both opponents and your teammates. Much of the time, you can tell which team will win simply based on the make-up of the team as the game loads. Over time, you will recognize and remember the better players; just like they know, study, and remember you and your tendencies.

In-game, follow your better teammates and watch how they use the map and play. As you get to know ‘names’, you will also get to know ‘tendencies’ associated with those named players both enemy and teammate alike. You will begin to remember that certain players will always move the left or right, jump, or spin in a certain manner when under fire. You will remember that ‘so and so’ tends to stay out on the edges or is always ‘close in’ to the fighting.

Equally important, you will begin to realize that these players are also studying you. Once you realize that a given player is ‘owning you’, change your tendencies, move in a different manner, approach from an unexpected angle of the map, etc. My wife says I am “predictably unpredictable”. I choose to take that as a compliment…though I’m not so sure…

Learning the Maps: I’m not going into the nuances of each map but will instead provide some general statements:

1. The map ‘edge’ is your friend: Use it as it means to limit both the ingress and egress of your enemies by taking away one (sometimes two) of the four quadrants (north, south, east and west).

2. Expect someone around each corner: This is especially true of busy areas where you expect to go into battle. On those potential busy spots, round the corner tapping your trigger (limit your taps) and if necessary, waste a few bullets. Or go in while moving left and right and/or jumping.

3. I haven’t commented on the ‘mini-map’ as most understand its importance, especially when your scouts or decoy scouts are ‘up’. But consider the opposite, i.e. when the enemies’ scouts are ‘up.’ When their scouts are ‘up’ and you are closing on a busy area or rounding a busy corner, the good players already have you lined up, so come in guns hot. If you are ‘stationary’ somewhere on the map, you should expect to die very shortly.

4. At the beginning of the game, do the unexpected rather than the expected: Most just rush into the kill zone and well, get killed. Learn the secondary approach’s to the battle lines.

5. Learn, learn, learn, learn the maps: There are cool alleys and by-ways, many more than I thought early in my first few months of playing.

6. Use the small hills or low structures to your advantage and climb on top of them. There is something satisfying when you know an opponent is on the other side of that large rock (trying to kill or sneak up on you) while you jump onto said rock, move up, over and down said rock while leading with your knife. The point is, use all map items to your advantage, not just to hide behind.

My Current Loadout: If you are interested, you will find it embedded throughout this thread.

04-25-2013, 07:38 AM
Thank you for your insights.
I still think it is unfair that any player has any advantage over another player. If any player were to have an advantage it should come from knowing the map (which is a huge advantage) and being able to pick a superior load out. That said however if one has a "speed boost" by definition that is an unfair advantage, so how can a guy claim to be a superior player with high kill to death ratios when they are just privy to using skills that give them advantages? Like i have said before the game favors one style based on code writing that in reality would not be true. Jumping around would get you dead in the real world and just go to a shooting range and TRY jumping and hip firing a gun and see if you can hit a beach ball at 25 feet. Aimed fire is what works, so the code writing fails to follow reality.
I get that a game draws a player to play a certain way to be successful. Sure you can choose any style you want, but.... everyone will learn to adapt to the same style IF they want higher numbers. In coop its all about team work, you don't work as a team the mission will NOT be succussful, no matter how skilled rambo is ( at least on insane). As I have said, I find it crazy that I can have my red dot directly on a "Great players" chest and fire 2 LMG rounds at him and have him turn as he is running and hip fire his SMG at me and kill me. That is not possible in real life.
It also sucks that you can't climb rock outcropping to sniper from or jump on passing enemies. As you state it appears it is all geared towards very close range encounters which a light SMG would excel at, but for the reality of body armor. I've seen a guy running , jumping, hip firing, in the open take out guy on a 50 cal machine gum who is behind cover . I'm sorry that would never happen, so my disbelief comes into play regarding the code writing that would allow such silliness. You start to suspect the hip firing guy has aim bot opperating, but apparently the code writing favors his "aim" ability over the actual aiming of the guy on the 50? Mabye the lag makes it appear that my red dot fired bullets hit the opponent and they actually didn't. I've had times on COOP when I actually layed 8 rounds into an enemy who just shook it off and started shooting at me, WTF? He seemed impossible to kill until I finally nailed him with a headshot (and I am using an LMG with hot rounds, so?). My general ratio in multiplayer and I haven't played but a couple weeks is currently about 1.5/1 kills to deaths. And that is with a LMG and bow. I find it takes to long to bring up the second weapon if I need it, unless I have time and happen to be out of bullets on the primary.

04-25-2013, 10:39 PM
Andy thanks for your response. I agree with your underlying themes/comments and have a few observations:

Your comments about not being able to climb up onto rock outcroppings is 'spot on' (although there are a few rocks here and there that you can climb on and jump from or over). It makes no sense to me either and would provide a better ‘sniper’ element to the game. But then, the maps would also need to be bigger as today (after a successful snipe) the sniper gets tracked down in no time and has no real ability to move quickly to a safer spot.

Your example of the guy running, jumping and hip firing and then being able to take out a long target who is behind ‘cover’ is suspicious indeed and also does make me wonder about the exact same things. I know I can’t do it (not even close), but I have seen it occur in the game as well. I harbor the same suspicions when odd things happen, but then I start watching that player for the rest of the game (and future games) to see how good they really are. If it happens again, I keep watching because sometimes that very same player later in the game (or in subsequent games with different lag issues) begins to miss and isn’t ‘oneshotting’ everyone. In those cases, I dismiss my suspicions. In most cases…

Regarding your thoughts about lag making your red dot 'appear to be on target’ (when it isn’t) is unfortunately exactly what is happening, i.e. lag at its worst. How many times have all of us unloaded a stream of bullets directly into a target and watch as nothing happens? Lag is the 2nd most unfortunate aspect of this game, while we all know what comes in 1st.

Regarding ‘Speed Boost’, (you may actually mean ‘Haste’, see further below): ‘Speed Boost’ is a choice which if not chosen allows the player to choose another ‘loadout’ option that they may prefer over ‘Speed Boost.’ Since any player can pick any of these options to fit their game style, I don’t view it by any means as unfair. For example, another player can choose ‘bloodlust’ instead in order to increase health regeneration after a kill. The only way to keep this part of the gaming options equal would be to remove them all, which then eliminates versatility within the game itself.

Instead, I think you may be more referring to ‘Haste’ (a ‘battlecry’ loadout) which lasts maybe 5 +/- seconds and does feel over-powered to me as well. I’m guessing that the game designers equate it to something like the ‘adrenalin rush’ that one obtains during the ‘fight or flight’ mode in real life. If that is what they were thinking, it somewhat makes sense to me, but still could be scaled back a bit. With the level of game lag, it makes the opponent look like they are ‘blurring’ (ala ‘The Flash’ comic book hero) across the game field while disappearing into the distance.

Regarding designing the game like the ‘real world’: If the designers virtually designed the game to ‘mirror life’, it would end up being just another ‘I saw you first’ therefore ‘bang you are dead’ kind of game. Not very fun for very long. There simply must be ways to evade, survive, flank and retaliate or the game would be too one dimensional. Plus, should the game designers take out too many game elements, they would then probably have to ‘weaken’ the accuracy of the guns (Assault, LMG, etc.) all which in real life would not be as effective as we think with a person running, bobbing and weaving at distance. Now that would be real life ‘haste’ at its finest I suppose.

Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that they weaken gun accuracy, I just believe that if they eliminate all options for folks to fight back, then they would be forced to weaken the guns, something which I do not advocate. They would also need to provide a better map terrain with hills and valleys that a person could jump into or behind when attacked. This would also bring back basic ‘flanking maneuvers into the game (i.e. circling the hillside and coming up behind the attacker, etc.) which are very limited today; limited to running around the side of a wall, a building or a rock.

As an example, I remember one time playing the ‘Fishing Village’ PVP map. In this case I had an opponent right behind me in that semi-fenced in area (the mid-map flat area with no hills and very near the water) with stairs and a small guard house at the very top of those stairs. This allowed my opponent and I to run around the walls, run up the stairs, jump over to the other side of the wall and come around again; but from different sides/areas of the walled areas. Lots of ‘flanking potential’ for both parties. We both knew each was close and both fought for position, constantly flanking, using the walls, the stairs, etc. After about 10 +/- seconds of this, the duel ended (knife blow) with one of us jumping from the stairs, over the fence and directly onto the other involved party. Very intense, very fun, very rewarding and very very satisfying. Plus, instead of angry in-game comments, it ended up with ‘great fight/nice move’ comments to each other. I love those types of back and forth in-game appreciative comments that can (but rarely do) come to and from an adversary. We both enjoyed it, knowing it individually took focus, skill, concentration and an element of luck. Flanking at its most fun but rare on these maps.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts and comments. I enjoyed reading and thinking about them.

05-02-2013, 12:13 AM
I think the thing bothering most in this game is that it has the potential to be really interesting, but fails for many in that it becomes really frustrating. To be killed over and over is unnerving. Of course anyone who wishes to play will adapt the best they can, so your expose, does a great job of explaining the advantageous load out, skills strategies, etc.

But back to my gripes, First uneven playing field. There will always be advantages if an experienced player learns the map well because that is the way it is. The easiest kill is always the one where the opposition DOESN"T see you and you shoot at him at relatively close range and kill him OR, sneak up and knife him. I am mostly killed by being back shot/stabbed and not face on.

LAG: this is the one of the biggest gripes I have. To witness the opposition magically move 10 feet towards me (teleporting?:) and knife me is impossible and leaves me knowing that his: computer is much better (More ram, faster CPU, handles data faster, etc.) or that his internet connection is much faster (I have DSL at 5mbs dn and .6 up with 100ms+ latency-ping) as perhaps he processes the info much faster and SEE'SS me before I am even aware he is in the picture. I've checked the area and rush forward at full run only to have guy shoot me in the back from 10 feet away - and unless he spawned on the ships deck that would be impossible unless I just didn't SEE HIM there to begin with - as I can not catch someone running usually.
Go on youtube and watch Lag Busters video and google online video game lag.

The solution: If UBI had servers and adjusted EVERYONES latency to match the slowest participant, then they would ALL see everything at the same time. A sort of time delay would work but in the end probable would slow things down even more. Having someone HOST the game is not going to get a good playing experience if for Host migration purposes alone.

I guess I could get an XBOX as at least EVERYONE would have the same processing ability and the ONLY difference would be the ping.
I saw a guy come over an knife me while I was shooting him and then proceeded to knife another guy who came up to the same spot in the instant replay. WTF? The second guy ALWAYS shoots the knifer when he witness's it because the knifer takes time to complete the melee kill and can't shoot (and you can't do friendly fire kills so just shoot both parties and the knifer will die.

Maybe UBI could let you pick your difficulty as in Adventurer (beginner) multiplayer games, where only those with lower stats could enter, Warrior multiplayer where anyone could enter (but you knew you would get annililated if you were inexperienced).
How about having the server do a ping on each player and those with better reaction times for packets sent would be denied use of "speed boost" and SMGs, that would even things up a bit for those with super fast connections and computers, against those with slower computers and more lag due to inferior internet connections.

Some tips from my studies. Grab a BZ19 and use it until you level up to get extended mag and red dot or if you can use iron sights , hot rounds. Reason: only an LMG will carry as much ammo -130 rounds and as large a mag - 60? you can shoot almost endlessly which comes in handy when you face 3 guys at once. While your assault rifle carries much less ammo and runs out with mag dumps sooner. The SMGs can be brought up for hip fire or aimed fire quicker AND SPEED is EVERYTHING in close quarters combat. If they have much larger maps (like some of the beta test maps) with less cover then snipers are idleal. Your skills should be hip fire and speed boost (so you can run faster). you'll notice that if you hit the shoot button for an INSTANT only the cross hairs show up and light green for friendlys and red for opponents. I recomend you shoot everything you see that moves until you learn to ID the players. Always notice when starting if you are a pirate or rakyat. I always run as Foistie says and any corner i show up at I hit the cross hairs to get my hip fire aim ready.. Of course this slows you down to a walk instead of a run, But...since I lag so bad I need all the help I can get. How anyone can bring up a big heavy LMG when we meet at a corner and kill me is beyond me, but they do, and I know they are running and not sneaking around. Watch for campers who park themselves behind cover to shoot at popular access points where many people will run by. Next time you spawn run over and flank them and kill them, they are never ready for it and often times don't move. They usually are not skilled at run and gun. If you can kill 2 guys every time you get killed you will score well and never be near the bottom of the list, points wise. You probably want a heavy bullet proof vest as opposed to grenades or proximity mines as every encounter means death for you and surviving 1 encounter because of a vest is worth it. The best players that jump around and knife you even tho you are shooting them first, I believe have very good internet connections and computers as you will find once in a while you become near invincible and can shoot eveyone and knife everyone and although they are shooting you first you kill them, that IS what they have ALL THE TIME. Anyone getting over 30 kills in a game has to be good AND have no lag.
I hope this helps those that believe everyone is cheating and has some kind of hack going giving them god powers, I have killed every single great player i have ever met, but.....they kill me 10 times for every time i kill them. Its a GAME and supposed to be fun. We only compete with our selves, At least that is true for me. I am saddened to see racism and cruel remakes made to other players as we are better than that, we are warriors.

05-13-2013, 04:39 AM

05-17-2013, 01:30 PM
Have to totally concur. Having achieved some vintage and slung (and still doing so) more bullets in anger/hunting practice and target shooting in meat-world then I've eaten grains of rice ( I love rice as well) I know the very real difference in stopping power of a variety of weapons and the virtue of not just a scoped shot but an excellent scope and an excellent weapon and lots and lots of practice and correct technique. You never take an uncertain shot (kill target/prey/food/vermin not friends/fellow hunters) and meticulous use of topography, site experience and quantification and determination of wind and ground effects in particular make comparative "hip shooting" farcical. It is the scoped shot that should clean kill every time with absolute certainty, and yes you can and do shoot moving targets with certainty at realistic close ranges and many years of practice and experience and very precious familiar tools. I am amused every time I get the assumed label of being a "noob" by some schoolboy who has probably merely used a cheat console. Iron sights at close range are in real world hugely more accurate than hip shots but that and the actual characteristics of the munitions are totally unrealistic in the game play. A fairer game play would preclude spawning out of the blue and be restricted to opposite map edges. I think the on line game play suffers lack of complexity in absence of vehicles and AI because it has to take into account latency issues which create many of the unfair advantages some players seem to be able to take advantage of at times.