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shobhit7777777
03-17-2013, 08:19 PM
Nah...but brainfart ? xD Alright...

heh

another avoidance

SMH

Anyway back OT:

Say M......what say you about philosophy and AC?

Bastiaen
03-17-2013, 08:19 PM
Didn't read this huge thread. Just responding to OP
Both philosophies have a degree of validity, and both are flawed. It's important to remember that this franchise was never about right and wrong, but instead about a confused morality in philosophies that innately avoid a solution.
The Templars don't just want order. They want control. The two are different at a very basic level. Order is everything in its place, but does not require control to be achieved. Control is when free will is removed (ie, via a piece of eden or other means of control).
The Assassins are not anarchists. It's important to recall Ezio's explanation of the Creed to Sofia at the end of ACR. The Assassins don't seek a lawless society, or even an unordered one. On the contrary, they encourage an ordered society in which men are free to make their choices, without fear of tyranny or control. They believe that men should be free to make their own choices, but that they must face the consequences of those choices, good or bad.
It's important to see the distinction between free will and anarchy, and between order and control in order to understand why the Assassins fight the Templars and vice versa.

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 08:24 PM
The Templars don't just want order. They want control.
They want control FOR order and purpose...they don't want control for the sake of control..

Eternal Reward
03-17-2013, 09:07 PM
For those that are saying that Assassins aren't anarchists, in the most recent Gameinformer issue Ubisoft said that Templars philosophy is one of dictatorship, while the Assassins is anarchy.

Hence the pirate theme working so well for the Assassins....which shows a lot about them.

SolidSage
03-17-2013, 09:11 PM
I think it's more about Free Will vs Total Control.

While I agree that the Templars might be onto something as far as making the World a better place, complete loss of free will is the part I can't get over. They wanted the Apple so they could control everyone's mind. That's not good mmm'kay.

As far as Democracy in the U.S. Well we do have free will on the individual level but I have a hard time believing even for a moment that the choices we are offered aren't part of an overarching control mechanism or system that is in fact an illusion that presents itself as the public controlling the direction when in fact, the public are just getting to vote on minor differences in the grand scheme. Like WHO is going to be the President that authorizes the use of drones on citizens. Not IF the President will authorize it.

Know what I mean?

Would the Taiban classify as Assassins in regard to their disagreement with the U.S (Templar) Government's agenda?

shobhit7777777
03-17-2013, 09:11 PM
For those that are saying that Assassins aren't anarchists, in the most recent Gameinformer issue Ubisoft said that Templars philosophy is one of dictatorship, while the Assassins is anarchy.

Hence the pirate theme working so well for the Assassins....which shows a lot about them.


The beauty of fictional narrative is that it is open to interpretation. Once an author (devs here) shares it with the people..its not reall "theirs" anymore.

That said

The gameplay and narrative - in the franchise - doesn't really support that statement. (Didn't Ezio actually assist the soon-to-be Sultan in ACR? thus proving beyond doubt that the Assassins DGAF regarding the form of governance as long as people are given liberty, treated equally, allowed access to knowledge and not be made slaves of?)

I'll take the statement as a quick way to align the Pirates and Assassins together and as a sound byte.

shobhit7777777
03-17-2013, 09:12 PM
I think it's more about Free Will vs Total Control.

While I agree that the Templars might be onto something as far as making the World a better place, complete loss of free will is the part I can't get over. They wanted the Apple so they could control everyone's mind. That's not good mmm'kay.

As far as Democracy in the U.S. Well we do have free will on the individual level but I have a hard time believing even for a moment that the choices we are offered aren't part of an overarching control mechanism or system that is in fact an illusion that presents itself as the public controlling the direction when in fact, the public are just getting to vote on minor differences in the grand scheme. Like WHO is going to be the President that authorizes the use of drones on citizens. Not IF the President will authorize it.

Know what I mean?

Would the Taiban count as Assassin's in regard to their disagreement with the U.S (Templar) Government's agenda?


Yeah

Like asking someone..."On the left cheek or the right cheek?"...you gonna get slapped eitherway...CHOICE!!!

Eternal Reward
03-17-2013, 09:12 PM
Ahh, so we're roleplaying, then. Thanks for clearing that up. I was beginning to worry you actually believed all this stuff about democracy being a flawed system.

Democracy is an incredibly flawed system. I believe it works sometimes, but the idea that democracy = flawless is completely ignorant.

shobhit7777777
03-17-2013, 09:14 PM
Isn't ANY system involving HUMANS in any capacity inherently flawed?

Lesser evil

SolidSage
03-17-2013, 09:18 PM
And let's not forget that Ezio didn't know it all, none of them did really. Altair had his rebellious issues, Ezio was more concerned with the ladies until closer to the end, and Connor is a young man trying to stop his people from being erased.

We can't act like the actions of these men are the defining examples of the Creed. When in fact hey are soldiers employed in it's cause but are 'free' to make their own errors in conduct.
The games have always tried to show how a man's aging brings him new information that leads quite often, to a contradiction of his earlier morals.


I like this Edward guy so far, thieving, drinking and womanizing. Those are some old world tenants I can get behind :)
Forget the creed, it's just an excuse for a fight anyway ;)

Eternal Reward
03-17-2013, 09:20 PM
The beauty of fictional narrative is that it is open to interpretation. Once an author (devs here) shares it with the people..its not reall "theirs" anymore.

That said

The gameplay and narrative - in the franchise - doesn't really support that statement. (Didn't Ezio actually assist the soon-to-be Sultan in ACR? thus proving beyond doubt that the Assassins DGAF regarding the form of governance as long as people are given liberty, treated equally, allowed access to knowledge and not be made slaves of?)

I'll take the statement as a quick way to align the Pirates and Assassins together and as a sound byte.

Maybe, but if you look at their base philosophy, their ultimate society would be an anarchist one. I mean, they are for complete freedom. They work with governments, but if they COULD get rid of them, I doubt they would hesitate to do so.

And thats the crux of it. I don't know if the Assassins would do that, if they would be smart enough to realize that people are naturally jerks, but that's their ideal society. Just as the Templars is a benevolent dictatorship, but once again I'm not sure if they would go for one unless they knew it would work.

joey-4321_web
03-17-2013, 09:22 PM
The beauty of fictional narrative is that it is open to interpretation. Once an author (devs here) shares it with the people..its not reall "theirs" anymore.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*coughs*
*takes deep breath*
*drinks glass of water*
*takes deep breath again*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Eternal Reward
03-17-2013, 09:23 PM
Isn't ANY system involving HUMANS in any capacity inherently flawed?

Lesser evil

True, but there are plenty of example of systems that we put on as always being bad, like say dictatorships, that have worked far better than a lot of democracies do and have.

So, sometimes different systems work for different peoples. The idea that one system is inherently better than the rest is just dumb.

joey-4321_web
03-17-2013, 09:28 PM
The beauty of fictional narrative is that it is open to interpretation. Once an author (devs here) shares it with the people..its not reall "theirs" anymore.


Two responses

1. You sound like a butt hurt fan fiction writer

2. Writers (or devs) are the GODS of the universes they create, whatever they say goes, they own it. The word of god is always true.

TheHumanTowel
03-17-2013, 09:38 PM
Two responses

1. You sound like a butt hurt fan fiction writer

2. Writers (or devs) are the GODS of the universes they create, whatever they say goes, they own it. The word of god is always true.
There's someone here who sounds butthurt. And it isn't him.

Bastiaen
03-17-2013, 09:48 PM
There is a huge misunderstanding about anarchy in the modern world. Anarchy =/= Chaos. Just like order =/= control. Anarchy would ultimately be the right choice if people would choose to be good.

Eternal Reward
03-17-2013, 09:50 PM
There is a huge misunderstanding about anarchy in the modern world. Anarchy =/= Chaos. Just like order =/= control. Anarchy would ultimately be the right choice if people would choose to be good.

Except people are not naturally good.....which is why true Anarchy will never work.

joey-4321_web
03-17-2013, 10:00 PM
There's someone here who sounds butthurt. And it isn't him.

No I just find his logic laughable. He sounds like one of those people to tell the authors that a characeter that author created, who also knows exactly how that character think, wouldn't do something the author had the character do.

For better explanation look here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod

SixKeys
03-17-2013, 11:04 PM
The gameplay and narrative - in the franchise - doesn't really support that statement. (Didn't Ezio actually assist the soon-to-be Sultan in ACR? thus proving beyond doubt that the Assassins DGAF regarding the form of governance as long as people are given liberty, treated equally, allowed access to knowledge and not be made slaves of?)

I'll take the statement as a quick way to align the Pirates and Assassins together and as a sound byte.

Agreed. I took issue with the way they phrased that as it contradicts what we've seen in the games. It seemed more like an easy way to explain the two factions to newbies, but in the games it's very clear the assassins aren't anarchists.(Nor Templars "benevolent" dictators - I wouldn't call mind control benevolent.)


Democracy is an incredibly flawed system. I believe it works sometimes, but the idea that democracy = flawless is completely ignorant.

I'll admit I was being slightly provocative on purpose because I wanted a clear answer out of M on whether he was being serious or roleplaying in his answers to me. :nonchalance: I don't believe the kind of democracy that is currently being practiced in many countries in the real world is flawless. Just like Communism, it's something that sounds perfect on paper, but is much harder to implement into practice without getting corrupted.

I do still believe democracy is the best possible system out of the options we currently have (as opposed to dictatorship or anarchy), because it's the one that gives people the most amount of freedom and protection without sliding into lawlessness and chaos. The fact that many countries aren't using the system the way it was designed to be doesn't invalidate the ideology itself. I feel the same way about Communism. The idea remains good despite the fact that it's almost impossible to implement in practice because people are so easily corrupted. Democracy has at least been proven to work on a somewhat workable level as far as idealism and practice are concerned.

inferno33222
03-17-2013, 11:24 PM
Except people are not naturally good.....which is why true Anarchy will never work.

The Assassins understand this, which is why, as someone said, Ezio aided the soon-to-be Sultan, and why Connor aided Washington. He said "The people have made their choice, and it was Washington". He does not care about government so long as it is fair.

BigTrevor94
03-17-2013, 11:24 PM
"To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic." makes sense to me, GRANTED they are a bit hypocritical with some of these rules and actions, id rather be free of my own will then have a overlord mind controlling us all making us "free"

SixKeys
03-17-2013, 11:30 PM
Alta´r already summarized the assassins' philosophy well in AC1:

Al Mualim: "What is the world then?"

Alta´r: "An illusion. One which we can either submit to, as most do, or transcend."

Al Mualim: "What is it to transcend?"

Alta´r: "To recognize nothing is true and everything is permitted. That laws rise not from divinity, but reason. I understand now that our creed does not command us to be free - it commands us to be wise."

Farlander1991
03-17-2013, 11:40 PM
No I just find his logic laughable. He sounds like one of those people to tell the authors that a characeter that author created, who also knows exactly how that character think, wouldn't do something the author had the character do.

For better explanation look here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod

1. So, basically, you're saying the whole literary theory section of reader-response criticism is ********.
2. The TVTropes' article doesn't say that your rebuttal is the correct one, it looks at things from different sides, including mentioning the 'open for interpretation' philosophy and the fact that a work with multiple creators may have contradicting 'words of god', and the examples are just of creators saying something about their work outside of their work. So I fail to see how that proves your point.

Sushiglutton
03-17-2013, 11:48 PM
Alta´r already summarized the assassins' philosophy well in AC1:

Al Mualim: "What is the world then?"

Alta´r: "An illusion. One which we can either submit to, as most do, or transcend."

Al Mualim: "What is it to transcend?"

Alta´r: "To recognize nothing is true and everything is permitted. That laws rise not from divinity, but reason. I understand now that our creed does not command us to be free - it commands us to be wise."

So the Assassins do want laws, but oppose religious dogmatism?

Farlander1991
03-17-2013, 11:59 PM
So the Assassins do want laws, but oppose religious dogmatism?

In a sense. After all, the assassin tenets are basically laws: stay your blade from the innocent, hide in plain sight, don't compromise the brotherhood. But it makes sense that these tenets are derived from reason. If you kill the innocent, then people won't believe in sincerity of your goal. If you don't hide in plain sight, then the supernatural element of coming out of nowhere will not be instilled in people's minds (they remember stuff like that). If you compromise the brotherhood, then, well, you can **** up the life of everybody you know, pretty much.

Although, it has to be noted that Altair himself wrote about the three ironies of the assassins: that they promote peace, but commit murder; that they want to open minds of people, but seek obedience to the tenets; that they want to reveal the danger of blind faith, yet practice it themselves.

Spider_Sith9
03-18-2013, 01:09 AM
No I mean the Reapers never rebelled against the Catalyst. Probably they weren't even aware of his/its existence O.o

I was talking about the Reapers rebelling against the Leviathans. O.o

Also, I'm absolutely lost in this thread now. ;_;

joey-4321_web
03-18-2013, 01:59 AM
1. So, basically, you're saying the whole literary theory section of reader-response criticism is ********.
2. The TVTropes' article doesn't say that your rebuttal is the correct one, it looks at things from different sides, including mentioning the 'open for interpretation' philosophy and the fact that a work with multiple creators may have contradicting 'words of god', and the examples are just of creators saying something about their work outside of their work. So I fail to see how that proves your point.

*facepalm* alright second try
1. YOU have no control over the canon, the creator does, how did criticism come into your mind?
2. That page tells you whatever the creator says is canon. I was pointing to a definition and it was on that page
And there you go
Now for nap

Farlander1991
03-18-2013, 02:38 AM
*facepalm* alright second try
1. YOU have no control over the canon, the creator does, how did criticism come into your mind?
2. That page tells you whatever the creator says is canon. I was pointing to a definition and it was on that page
And there you go
Now for nap

*double facepalm*
You clearly don't know what points you're trying to argue with, so let me explain. Reader-response criticism (also known as reader-response theory) is a literary school of thought that focuses on the reader (or audience, or viewer, or when applied to games - player), and is based on the principle that the meaning is created not by the author, but by the reader based on author's text. The school of thought argues that the reader's personal experience with the work creates meaning through his own interpretation. This means that author's intent takes a backstage, especially in cases when his intent is not represented in any shape or form in the text itself. THAT'S what shohbit meant by 'open to interpretation' and 'it's not really theirs'. And you know the funny thing is? The TVTropes page MENTIONS this. And it also mentions the danger of multiple authors, which, surprise-surprise, Assassin's Creed is an EXAMPLE of. Corey May said in one of the interviews that Templars want to get rid of free will, some people here argue that it's not their goal. That they want just peace through order and that doesn't necessarily mean getting rid of free will. And that's based on their interpretation of the things seen and experienced from in the game. Derby said that Assassins are anarchists. Some people don't agree, based on their interpretation of what happened in the game. And there's nothing wrong with that. So, if you don't agree with that school of thought - by all means, don't. It's your right, but don't go on calling people who base what they think off the work directly (and not through external sources) 'butthurt fan fiction writers'.

pirate1802
03-18-2013, 03:24 AM
I was talking about the Reapers rebelling against the Leviathans. O.o

Also, I'm absolutely lost in this thread now. ;_;

How would the Reapers rebel against the Leviathans? There weren't any when the Levis were around. The first one was created after harvesting them, did you forget? xD

SixKeys
03-18-2013, 03:25 AM
So the Assassins do want laws, but oppose religious dogmatism?

The phrase "nothing is true" refers to the fact that no person or god has the ultimate truth because there is no such thing. Truth is subjective and man-made. "Everything is permitted" refers to the idea that because there is no ultimate authority (God etc.), we are free to do whatever the hell we want. The realization Alta´r comes to in the course of AC1 is that this absolute freedom should be handled responsibly. That's why he says the creed doesn't command the assassins to be free but wise. They already have freedom, they just have to be wise about how they use it. If there is no ultimate authority or universal law holding you back, what will you do with your freedom? Will you use it to oppress others, to make them subservient? Or will you use it for the benefit of others and hold yourself responsible for your actions?

rebelguy007
03-18-2013, 03:31 AM
A bit side-tracking. If any sides achieve their na´ve goal of peace through whatever the hell they believe in, what will happen next? Will humanity just magically ditch all ideals of war and combat? Can humans completely forget its sometimes violent nature? Would we really change that much if we have total peace? What does peace even mean ? Is it no two countries having a conflict? Is it no two kids having a conflict? Why even fight for something that is so vague and so unrealistic?

Be careful there or we'll run out of story points for the series XD No more motivation.

monster_rambo
03-18-2013, 03:34 AM
Assassin's philosophy:

"Before you go, I have a question for you.
Of course
What is the truth?
We place faith in ourselves We see the world the way it really is and hope one day all mankind will see the same
What is the world then?
An illusion. One which we can either submit to, as most do, or transcend.
What is it to transcend?
To recognize nothing is true and everything is permitted That laws rise not from divinity, but reason I understand now that our creed does not command us to be free it commands us to be wise"

-Al Mualim to Altair

^oops, already being posted, nevermind that.

pirate1802
03-18-2013, 03:37 AM
So, sometimes different systems work for different peoples. The idea that one system is inherently better than the rest is just dumb.

Exactly. Viewing a system in vacuum without considering the society its being applied to is lets say.. not very clever. Sometimes democracy seems to be like the holocaust. Criticize it and people question whether you are sane or serious.


Yeah

Like asking someone..."On the left cheek or the right cheek?"...you gonna get slapped eitherway...CHOICE!!!

Isn't that what's happening here? DEMOCRACY!


He said "The people have made their choice, and it was Washington". He does not care about government so long as it is fair.

The election of Washington, as depicted in the game, was hardly "fair." As Haytham said, the people in reality chose nothing. I wonder how much the Assassins care for whom the "people" chose. Suleiman wasn't popularly elected either, nor was Lorenzo or the new Doge of Venice whose name I'm forgetting (unless I'm missing out on a crucial bit.)

SixKeys
03-18-2013, 03:52 AM
Exactly. Viewing a system in vacuum without considering the society its being applied to is lets say.. not very clever. Sometimes democracy seems to be like the holocaust. Criticize it and people question whether you are sane or serious.

Only because no-one who criticizes democracy ever brings up a viable alternative. I guess people felt the same back when we didn't know the Earth revolves around the Sun. If you were going to question something that seemed like a no-brainer at the time, you had better offer a sound alternative.
What is especially baffling to me is that most people commenting here probably live in a democracy themselves. They are allowed to freely post their opinions online and even to question their government without fear of repercussions, yet they are wondering if living under a dictatorship would be better. I can guarantee it would not.

Even if true democracy is more or less an illusion, there are aspects of it that work. There are real-life examples of the people rising up against their government and making a difference. People have fought for their rights and won. For every news corporation that takes bribes or is controlled by the government, we have WikiLeaks which is allowed to exist only because banning it would be a violation of democracy.

If you have a better alternative in mind for democracy, I'm all ears. But until you come up with something that doesn't sound highly impractical, you're going to have a hard time convincing people. That's just how things work.

Assassin_M
03-18-2013, 03:55 AM
we have WikiLeaks which is allowed to exist only because banning it would be a violation of democracy.
Yeah, I mean it`s not like Julian Assange is being chased by the US government or anything...

joey-4321_web
03-18-2013, 03:56 AM
*double facepalm*
You clearly don't know what points you're trying to argue with, so let me explain. Reader-response criticism (also known as reader-response theory) is a literary school of thought that focuses on the reader (or audience, or viewer, or when applied to games - player), and is based on the principle that the meaning is created not by the author, but by the reader based on author's text. The school of thought argues that the reader's personal experience with the work creates meaning through his own interpretation. This means that author's intent takes a backstage, especially in cases when his intent is not represented in any shape or form in the text itself. THAT'S what shohbit meant by 'open to interpretation' and 'it's not really theirs'. And you know the funny thing is? The TVTropes page MENTIONS this. And it also mentions the danger of multiple authors, which, surprise-surprise, Assassin's Creed is an EXAMPLE of. Corey May said in one of the interviews that Templars want to get rid of free will, some people here argue that it's not their goal. That they want just peace through order and that doesn't necessarily mean getting rid of free will. And that's based on their interpretation of the things seen and experienced from in the game. Derby said that Assassins are anarchists. Some people don't agree, based on their interpretation of what happened in the game. And there's nothing wrong with that. So, if you don't agree with that school of thought - by all means, don't. It's your right, but don't go on calling people who base what they think off the work directly (and not through external sources) 'butthurt fan fiction writers'.

Hate these unorganized walls of text, so hard to read.
Anyway just cause you interpret something doesn't mean that's what actually was. What actually was is chosen by the creator. The word of god is always true
It's also why I don't read fan fiction
Don't know why you don't get what I'm Trying to say so ill stop trying
Last but not least, desmond was awesome.
Bye!

SixKeys
03-18-2013, 04:02 AM
Yeah, I mean it`s not like Julian Assange is being chased by the US government or anything...

But the site still exists. Assange is just one of many. Even if Assange were to be handed over to the US, that alone wouldn't bring down WikiLeaks.

Assassin_M
03-18-2013, 04:08 AM
But the site still exists. Assange is just one of many. Even if Assange were to be handed over to the US, that alone wouldn't bring down WikiLeaks.
Is that how you look at it ? Or is that how you delude yourself ? If a "Democracy" is hunting down someone who spreads information about a Government`s inner workings, doesn't that mean that they`re violating democracy ? I mean, there`s this one guy leaking stuff about this big democratic nation and that nation that stands for democracy is hunting him down... doesn't that violate democracy ? No one cares if there`s more people...I certainly do not care if there`s more people...They can`t just go in and close the site, that`s left for the Middle East to do and their plan seems to work, since you hold on so tight to the thought "Hey, sight is still open, democracy for the win"

I mean, don't you fear for yourself ? That you might say the wrong things and be hunted down like a dog ? They can hunt all of us like dogs and people certainly wouldn't care what happens to you, because you know...."Your site is still open and there`s more humans like you" Think about this a little more broadly, please, like "Is there more freedom I can have ? Can I have more control ? Is it possible ?" don't hold democracy so high up that it`d make you forget how much freedom you actually have...If you look at it deeper, you`d find out that you and I are no different in terms of freedom and I live in a pretty effed up place regarding freedom..

This "Democracy" sure as hell sounds like some well known little nation in the middle east that is given a free pass to kill a certain people simply because said country is a democracy..

You`re as free as much as THEY want you to be. They`v concocted this little ploy called "democracy" and pasted it right next to freedom and said "We`ll let them insult the power, make fun of the power, criticize the power, have pre-marital sex, demonstrate against the government in government specified areas after getting a government permit, watch anything they want, draw anything they want, write anything they want, hell we`ll even let them choose the leaders, but...that`s all we`ll give them, because the choices they have are most likely the bad and the better bad"

Did you see the choice between Obama and Romney ? how many people did not cast a vote ? MORE THAN HALF. more than half wanted neither, more than half were unsatisfied with neither, more than half did not vote for the better bad and yet the majority still had to endure a president they did not vote for...so much for Democracy right ?

monster_rambo
03-18-2013, 04:24 AM
*facepalm* The notion of US promotes democracy is a ridiculous idea. The US have been known for supporting tyrannical governments, coup d'etats in middle east, killing thousands of Afgani's through aerial bombings and ground fires, and more just so they can consolidate their power geopolitically and for big oil. And yes, Wikileaks is still up but the US government is doing everything in its power to destroy such as colluding with companies like visa and mastercard to prevent funds being transfer by enforcing a financial blockade.

Assassin_M
03-18-2013, 04:29 AM
*facepalm* The notion of US promotes democracy is a ridiculous idea. The US have been known for supporting tyrannical governments, coup d'etats in middle east, killing thousands of Afgani's through aerial bombings and ground fires, and more just so they can consolidate their power geopolitically and for big oil. And yes, Wikileaks is still up but the US government is doing everything in its power to destroy such as colluding with companies like visa and mastercard to prevent funds being transfer by enforcing a financial blockade.
hey aint my fault...I mean.. I'm using the self proclaimed "Beacon of freedom, light and hope" as an example of how effed a democracy can be and it`s a pretty good example too since it is indeed effed up..

I also am against this weird notion that no dictatorship is successful or prosperous. not now certainly, but before ? Hell yes...The Renaissance came during a dictatorship, the golden age of philosophy was during a pretty prosperous dictatorship...It`s not as broad as "Democracy good, dictatorship bad" It`s way more complex..

Democracy, like Religion, science, economics and every other system, can be used for terrible acts against humanity..

monster_rambo
03-18-2013, 04:40 AM
hey aint my fault...I mean.. I'm using the self proclaimed "Beacon of freedom, light and hope" as an example of how effed a democracy can be and it`s a pretty good example too since it is indeed effed up..

I also am against this weird notion that no dictatorship is successful or prosperous. not now certainly, but before ? Hell yes...The Renaissance came during a dictatorship, the golden age of philosophy was during a pretty prosperous dictatorship...It`s not as broad as "Democracy good, dictatorship bad" It`s way more complex..

Democracy, like Religion, science, economics and every other system, can be used for terrible acts against humanity..

I am not against democracy. Understand this, democracy is just a system of making decision by majority (not always). However, what I do criticize is US being the number one hypocrite because they say they love democracy but then they are inciting violence in some poor ME, African, etc. country for their own gain. I hate their foreign policy. And their country is filled with sheeple to god ****ed brainwashed by the mainstream media about countries like Iran nuking themselves up without ever mentioning the real history behind it like operation ajax and reasons why these countries want to protect themselves. They also never mention how the us drives the creation of terrorism by bombing the **** out of them in the past, thus this notion of that they are "attacking US because is free is false". they just want you guys to get out of saudi arabia and stop getting into ME politics. I don't even consider US an exactly a free country, every year the amount of rights get shorter and shorter. But make no mistake, I do not support fascism or any dictatorship, I just hate hypocrites.

^I think is best to get back to assassin's creed. next thing you know, this turns into religious or political debate.

Assassin_M
03-18-2013, 04:47 AM
^I think is best to get back to assassin's creed. next thing you know, this turns into religious or political debate.
Probably for the best...I agree with everything you said anyway xD

I`m pretty certain my views are raising a few eye brows here, since I participated in the Egyptian revolution and still don't view dictatorship in as much bad as I should according to them..

jenyto
03-18-2013, 05:49 AM
I`m pretty certain my views are raising a few eye brows here, since I participated in the Egyptian revolution and still don't view dictatorship in as much bad as I should according to them..

Well you lived it, so of course you know how it is then most of us. I can't really participate in this debate since I only know 1 side of it.
Which is why I play neutral :cool:

pirate1802
03-18-2013, 06:03 AM
Which is why I play neutral :cool:

If say, somewhere down the line in the future, in the ACverse, a group is formed out of disgruntled members of both sides, that would be awesome, and have my full support. I was certainly hinted in AC3, that they are not as apart as we'd think.

perhaps such a group already exists and we know them as Erudito?

jenyto
03-18-2013, 06:40 AM
If say, somewhere down the line in the future, in the ACverse, a group is formed out of disgruntled members of both sides, that would be awesome, and have my full support. I was certainly hinted in AC3, that they are not as apart as we'd think.

perhaps such a group already exists and we know them as Erudito?
Erudito doesn't seem neutral though, since they keep attacking Abstergo and I've yet to see them do anything towards the Assassins.

pirate1802
03-18-2013, 06:50 AM
Erudito doesn't seem neutral though, since they keep attacking Abstergo and I've yet to see them do anything towards the Assassins.

His tone in the MP files seemed more distant. Like: "So old Bill is flying solo again. Will his comrade save him in time? Has to be seen!" or something like that. Like he is watching the fun from a distance. :p

What I'm saying is, he maybe attacking Abstergo, but maybe for his own reasons and not aligned with the Assassins? For all we know he may even be a dissident Templar.

Spider_Sith9
03-18-2013, 07:04 AM
How would the Reapers rebel against the Leviathans? There weren't any when the Levis were around. The first one was created after harvesting them, did you forget? xD

I should've checked my sources more. A better word was...betrayal. And then the Geth. Regardless, Perfect Order is as flawed as Perfect Chaos. Just one is more realistic to achieve.

And yes, Erudito is Neutral. He's/It's more along the lines of Anonymous. His/It's morals being questionable yet helps no causes. His/It's enemy is Abstergo. More of a fight for Truth than Peace via Freedom/Order.

It's easier to be Neutral in this sort of situation because of the variables. Guys plotting world domination yet believe they are doing good/for the better good or Guys who liberate the world into chaos for peace. I'd rather play the role of The Chessmaster. Ultimate power by no power at all. Just skill. When will you guys realize this is going nowhere? I can see it in the posts this is getting beyond AC too far. If you agree with the Templar's philosophy, fine (but I'd rather not live in a world of Perfect Order). If you agree with the Assassin's, that's good too. But don't discourage the other because you think it's wrong. And please keep it somewhat in to the game like someone said.

pirate1802
03-18-2013, 07:10 AM
Perfect Order is as flawed as Perfect Chaos. Just one is more realistic to achieve.

Indeed. And also, I'd say its more difficult to attain too, since perfect chaos is easier to achieve because second law of thermodynamics. xD

About Erudito, I think he'd have no issues hacking through the Assassin database either if he deems them to be hiding the truth.

SixKeys
03-18-2013, 07:42 AM
And yes, Erudito is Neutral. He's/It's more along the lines of Anonymous.

He pizza-bombs Abstergo? :p

ArabianFrost
03-18-2013, 08:58 AM
Probably for the best...I agree with everything you said anyway xD

I`m pretty certain my views are raising a few eye brows here, since I participated in the Egyptian revolution and still don't view dictatorship in as much bad as I should according to them..

As my now dead friend once very "wisely" said "Zey will get za democrucy, But Howhen? Za Beoble are not redy for Za Democrucy"

Assassin_M
03-18-2013, 09:01 AM
As my now dead friend once very "wisely" said "Zey will get za democrucy, But Howhen? Za Beoble are not redy for Za Democrucy"
You have dead friends too ?

I`d say that`s pretty spot on..everything happened too fast and we were not ready. I was once angry at a politician for saying that the Egyptian people are not ready for Democracy (or deserve democracy) turns out he was right...we needed a lot of things worked out first before that step, but alas, apparently we have to start over..

shobhit7777777
03-18-2013, 09:10 AM
Well yeah, both ideologies have their flaws. But if I had too choose one I'd go with the Templars in a heartbeat. Maybe I just have a very pessimistic worldview :(

I'm seeing a trend here: People from failed/ failing or generally unsuccessful democracies tend to Templarists, and those from successful or atleast nonfailing democracies tend to be Assassinists. Makes sense.

And the smart ones walk the middle line

Take what works.

ArabianFrost
03-18-2013, 09:10 AM
You have dead friends too ?

I`d say that`s pretty spot on..everything happened too fast and we were not ready. I was once angry at a politician for saying that the Egyptian people are not ready for Democracy (or deserve democracy) turns out he was right...we needed a lot of things worked out first before that step, but alas, apparently we have to start over..

Omar Suleiman may have been right when he said that, but the man was a ****ed Tyrant and seemed very condescending of Egyptians. Certainly not the dictator we seek. Oh if only a man with the balls of Muhammed Ali would rule us again. It seems we have been hoping for too long, with no proper result. It seems that our generation will never witness the next Golden Age of Egypt :( Until then, I'll be working my way to Switzerland.

ArabianFrost
03-18-2013, 09:13 AM
And the smart ones walk the middle line

Take what works.

The middle line? There is no middle line. It's either you have freedom or not. What you view as democracy in the Western World is nothing but an illusion created by the Templars, to make you believe that you are free. This world (Templar-infested world) is yet to see a true democracy.

Assassin_M
03-18-2013, 09:15 AM
Omar Suleiman may have been right when he said that, but the man was a ****ed Tyrant and seemed very condescending of Egyptians. Certainly not the dictator we seek. Oh if only a man with the balls of Muhammed Ali would rule us again. It seems we have been hoping for too long, with no proper result. It seems that our generation will never witness the next Golden Age of Egypt :( Until then, I'll be working my way to Switzerland.
No question about it. The man was cruel and held the country hostage for decades...I`d even call it rape..

Another good example of a prosperous dictator. Muhammed Ali was the last leader of his kind to run this country and we may not witness a golden age, but like Connor said "We may struggle another thousand years, but we will never give up" At least that`s how I see it...Maybe we`re just destined to keep on fighting for our freedom and golden age till there`s nothing left..

pirate1802
03-18-2013, 09:19 AM
Take what works.

Agreed. I'm willing to go by whatever works. be it democracy or dictatorship *gasp*

ArabianFrost
03-18-2013, 09:23 AM
No question about it. The man was cruel and held the country hostage for decades...I`d even call it rape..

Another good example of a prosperous dictator. Muhammed Ali was the last leader of his kind to run this country and we may not witness a golden age, but like Connor said "We may struggle another thousand years, but we will never give up" At least that`s how I see it...Maybe we`re just destined to keep on fighting for our freedom and golden age till there`s nothing left..

Well, in our haste to save this country, let's make sure we don't destroy it and if we do keep fighting forever let us hope that this suffering will be worth something whether it be in this mortal universe, or the one after it.

Assassin_M
03-18-2013, 09:25 AM
Well, in our haste to save this country, let's make sure we don't destroy it and if we do keep fighting forever let us hope that this suffering will be worth something whether it be in this mortal universe, or the one after it.
Indeed...I never noticed how well some quotes from the games go in this situation:p

I should`v guessed...Revolution here, Revolution there and VERY Naive protagonists...

ArabianFrost
03-18-2013, 09:31 AM
Indeed...I never noticed how well some quotes from the games go in this situation:p

I should`v guessed...Revolution here, Revolution there and VERY Naive protagonists...

Where is Ahmed Ezz? GIVE ME AHMED EZZ. If history does repeat itself, the I'm really waiting for Morsy to gift the actual governing to some people who will properly do it, like Georgie.

Assassin_M
03-18-2013, 09:33 AM
Where is Ahmed Ezz? GIVE ME AHMED EZZ. If history does repeat itself, the I'm really waiting for Morsy to gift the actual governing to some people who will properly do it, like Georgie.
ana ba7sedhom wallahi 3ala georgie :/

told him to be king he said no, told him to run for another term he said no...I understand why the Americans hold him in such high regard. He basically saved them from a tragic fate to their revolution..

bs l2 msh a7med ezz xD howwa 3omar seleman aw 7d mn el da5leyya...homma dool elli beyr2a3o el 3l2a :P

7abeeb el 3dli :D

ArabianFrost
03-18-2013, 09:39 AM
ana ba7sedhom wallahi 3ala georgie :/

told him to be king he said no, told him to run for another term he said no...I understand why the Americans hold him in such high regard. He basically saved them from a tragic fate to their revolution..

bs l2 msh a7med ezz xD howwa 3omar seleman aw 7d mn el da5leyya...homma dool elli beyr2a3o el 3l2a :P

7abeeb el 3dli :D

This just comes to show that the quest for political power is more important for nearly all political parties, than the quest for rebuilding this so-called Democratic Republic of Egypt.

Atare Omar Suleiman kan ma2tol fe 2odto ba3d ma akhad 3al2a nohtarama, zay el akh Charles.

Assassin_M
03-18-2013, 09:43 AM
This just comes to show that the quest for political power is more important for nearly all political parties, than the quest for rebuilding this so-called Democratic Republic of Egypt.

Atare Omar Suleiman kan ma2tol fe 2odto ba3d ma akhad 3al2a nohtarama, zay el akh Charles.
Not nearly; all of them really..Some are just more bold and straightforward than others. Once you`v played the politics game it`s sealed..

Hahahaha xD msh bey2olak da howwa kan fi mabna asln fi soria lamma etfar23 ?

ArabianFrost
03-18-2013, 09:49 AM
Not nearly; all of them really..Some are just more bold and straightforward than others. Once you`v played the politics game it`s sealed..

Hahahaha xD msh bey2olak da howwa kan fi mabna asln fi soria lamma etfar23 ?

Fak

Howa el ragel da ghaleban et3amal feh kol dane2a lama mat. Yala kemeyet el esha3at 3an tareeket mawto

Assassin_M
03-18-2013, 09:53 AM
Fak

Howa el ragel da ghaleban et3amal feh kol dane2a lama mat. Yala kemeyet el esha3at 3an tareeket mawto
kteer b ghaba2 ya gada3....elli y2olak da mat ma7roo2, welli y2olak da mat mefr23...w elly y2olak el CIA ataleto...tb el CIA hate2telo leh ?? da aktr wa7ed beynam m3 el CIA...a7e haye2telo da w yseebo morsi ???

ArabianFrost
03-18-2013, 09:59 AM
kteer b ghaba2 ya gada3....elli y2olak da mat ma7roo2, welli y2olak da mat mefr23...w elly y2olak el CIA ataleto...tb el CIA hate2telo leh ?? da aktr wa7ed beynam m3 el CIA...a7e haye2telo da w yseebo morsi ???

Da hata morsy kan sedro maftoh we makansh labes Wake (ded el rosas tab3an, howa mesh mehtag wake zakare 3ashan howa khasana ma3ah). Homa alo yesebo Morsy shwaya yesalehom we yedahakhom.

Assassin_M
03-18-2013, 10:04 AM
Da hata morsy kan sedro maftoh we makansh labes Wake (ded el rosas tab3an, howa mesh mehtag wake zakare 3ashan howa khasana ma3ah). Homa alo yesebo Morsy shwaya yesalehom we yedahakhom.
w ytala3 mayteen aboona e7na D:

ArabianFrost
03-18-2013, 10:06 AM
w ytala3 mayteen aboona e7na D:

It's all worth the lulz (sort of)

Assassin_M
03-18-2013, 10:07 AM
It's all worth the lulz (sort of)
Bassem Youssef xD

I guess it is indeed worth it:p

ArabianFrost
03-18-2013, 10:17 AM
Bassem Youssef xD

I guess it is indeed worth it:p

We'll revolt again when the season ends and we realise that he utters crap and not jokes. Let's hope the season ends before Morsy's presidency does.

shobhit7777777
03-18-2013, 12:29 PM
The middle line? There is no middle line. It's either you have freedom or not. What you view as democracy in the Western World is nothing but an illusion created by the Templars, to make you believe that you are free. This world (Templar-infested world) is yet to see a true democracy.

IDK what you're talking about


Agreed. I'm willing to go by whatever works. be it democracy or dictatorship *gasp*

How about a democratic dictatorship?

pirate1802
03-18-2013, 12:36 PM
How about a democratic dictatorship?

How would that work?

shobhit7777777
03-18-2013, 01:08 PM
How would that work?

Elect a dictator

roostersrule2
03-18-2013, 01:17 PM
Elect a dictatorThey contradict each other? You're saying that you want a government run by the people, with a leader who does what ever he wants?

pirate1802
03-18-2013, 01:46 PM
Elect a dictator

And say, five years later we elect a new dictator? What stops the former dictator from fudging the process up?

Spider_Sith9
03-18-2013, 05:12 PM
He pizza-bombs Abstergo? :p

*shifty eyes* Probably? :p

shobhit7777777
03-18-2013, 05:17 PM
They contradict each other? You're saying that you want a government run by the people, with a leader who does what ever he wants?

Yup.



And say, five years later we elect a new dictator? What stops the former dictator from fudging the process up?

Revolt b1tches!


Its a joke you guys...don't be challenged.

RinoTheBouncer
03-18-2013, 05:43 PM
I think humans will never be able to lead themselves by themselves without a higher power controlling them. Killers will kill even if it's not for money or revenge, they might kill for fun. A lot of criminals wanted to kill because they enjoyed it not only because they wanted some benefit out of it. Rapists will rape, many of those rape can have someone to willingly have sex with them but they go a different way or pedophiles who go for children while many men and women want to be with them but they choose the wrong way.

So I guess if it's not for control and power, such people will keep doing what they want.

On the other hand, when people have power and control over the masses, they will eventually be corrupted into applying what their sick minds tell them on people, which is where oppression and rejection comes. People like Cesare or Rodrigo or many others we encountered had no concern for the good of mankind. All they wanted was them to be on top. Being the ruler became the goal not the method for them which is where I oppose the Templars. I understand that people like Haytham had a point and could've made a good progress despite his flaws.

The Assassin's however, are more acceptable when it comes to their aims. Maybe their aims sound like fairytales. Maybe it's not possible to make what they want come true but trying hard enough to reach a state of freedom that is somewhat close to what the Assassins want is a positive thing. They do kill people, but look at the people they killed, do you really want any of them to remain and rule you? I'm sure nobody would like someone who destroys their shops, takes their women or sisters, tortures their sons and fathers to live and remain in power.

I think every country should have basic rules that maintain human rights and safety but the rest should be up to the people. No one should decide what religion you follow, what sexuality you feel like belonging to, what type of partner you'd prefer dating, what gender or what nationality you come from. Nobody's allowed to bully you just because they're from a certain group of people who decides to feel superior and give themselves the right to judge and hurt you.

People should be given freedom and also be taught how to handle freedom. To insult someone who never hurt you is not freedom, it's being rude. To have sex with someone against their will is not freedom, it's rape. To kill people just because they want to follow a different religion or seek a same-gender partner is not freedom, it's a crime.

Maybe we do not always reach a goal when we plan one, maybe the height we reach while climbing a mountain is not exactly the one we're planning to reach but that doesn't mean that it's still good. Same thing for assassins, to aim for total freedom and people who'd respect that may not be possible for the time being but to be close to that state is good enough.

rupok2
03-18-2013, 07:35 PM
No you are wrong actually. Assassins try to spread the belief that people don't have to follow others, they can lead their own paths. Their worldview "Nothing is true everything is permitted" relates to this. Assassins don't actually want total freedom to do whatever but rather they want people to turn to education, logic, and be more independent and that is true freedom and true peace. They want people to be able to adapt to a world that constantly changes, and where nothing is set in stone and they want people to do that on their own by not being ignorant and being wise. Problem is this is extremely hard to do thats why people see it is an unattainable goal.

Templars think that total control is the solution for humankind, who they believe can never attain true peace on their own. People rape, murder and do horrendous things and templars think that by controlling humankind to make them more orderly and create a world with purpose/direction is the solution. However while its true they will attain peace it will just be an illusion not true peace.


Its basically comes down to whether one has faith in humanity or not. Most people don't so they think the templars are right.

stingray10
03-18-2013, 07:38 PM
No you are wrong actually. Assassins try to spread the belief that people don't have to follow others, they can lead their own paths. Their worldview "Nothing is true everything is permitted" relates to this. Assassins don't actually want total freedom to do whatever but rather they want people to turn to education, logic, and be more independent and that is true freedom and true peace. They want people to be able to adapt to a world that constantly changes, and where nothing is set in stone and they want people to do that on their own by not being ignorant and being wise. Problem is this is extremely hard to do thats why people see it is an unattainable goal.

Templars think that total control is the solution for humankind, who they believe can never attain true peace on their own. People rape, murder and do horrendous things and templars think that by controlling humankind to make them more orderly and create a world with purpose/direction is the solution. However while its true they will attain peace it will just be an illusion not true peace.


Its basically comes down to whether one has faith in humanity or not. Most people don't so they think the templars are right.

I like this perspective.

Spider_Sith9
03-18-2013, 08:07 PM
No you are wrong actually. Assassins try to spread the belief that people don't have to follow others, they can lead their own paths. Their worldview "Nothing is true everything is permitted" relates to this. Assassins don't actually want total freedom to do whatever but rather they want people to turn to education, logic, and be more independent and that is true freedom and true peace. They want people to be able to adapt to a world that constantly changes, and where nothing is set in stone and they want people to do that on their own by not being ignorant and being wise. Problem is this is extremely hard to do thats why people see it is an unattainable goal.

Templars think that total control is the solution for humankind, who they believe can never attain true peace on their own. People rape, murder and do horrendous things and templars think that by controlling humankind to make them more orderly and create a world with purpose/direction is the solution. However while its true they will attain peace it will just be an illusion not true peace.


Its basically comes down to whether one has faith in humanity or not. Most people don't so they think the templars are right.


I like this perspective.

Agreed. Never knew how weak willed people were here. What I always seen was that what the Assassins strive for could, for all we know, happen billions of years down the line or not at all.

P.S Why am I posting in this topic anyway?

monster_rambo
03-18-2013, 10:32 PM
I think humans will never be able to lead themselves by themselves without a higher power controlling them. Killers will kill even if it's not for money or revenge, they might kill for fun. A lot of criminals wanted to kill because they enjoyed it not only because they wanted some benefit out of it. Rapists will rape, many of those rape can have someone to willingly have sex with them but they go a different way or pedophiles who go for children while many men and women want to be with them but they choose the wrong way.

So I guess if it's not for control and power, such people will keep doing what they want.

On the other hand, when people have power and control over the masses, they will eventually be corrupted into applying what their sick minds tell them on people, which is where oppression and rejection comes. People like Cesare or Rodrigo or many others we encountered had no concern for the good of mankind. All they wanted was them to be on top. Being the ruler became the goal not the method for them which is where I oppose the Templars. I understand that people like Haytham had a point and could've made a good progress despite his flaws.

The Assassin's however, are more acceptable when it comes to their aims. Maybe their aims sound like fairytales. Maybe it's not possible to make what they want come true but trying hard enough to reach a state of freedom that is somewhat close to what the Assassins want is a positive thing. They do kill people, but look at the people they killed, do you really want any of them to remain and rule you? I'm sure nobody would like someone who destroys their shops, takes their women or sisters, tortures their sons and fathers to live and remain in power.

I think every country should have basic rules that maintain human rights and safety but the rest should be up to the people. No one should decide what religion you follow, what sexuality you feel like belonging to, what type of partner you'd prefer dating, what gender or what nationality you come from. Nobody's allowed to bully you just because they're from a certain group of people who decides to feel superior and give themselves the right to judge and hurt you.

People should be given freedom and also be taught how to handle freedom. To insult someone who never hurt you is not freedom, it's being rude. To have sex with someone against their will is not freedom, it's rape. To kill people just because they want to follow a different religion or seek a same-gender partner is not freedom, it's a crime.

Maybe we do not always reach a goal when we plan one, maybe the height we reach while climbing a mountain is not exactly the one we're planning to reach but that doesn't mean that it's still good. Same thing for assassins, to aim for total freedom and people who'd respect that may not be possible for the time being but to be close to that state is good enough.

The idea that psychopaths have an innate desire to inflect pain on another human being because they are programmed by instinct is clearly an uninformed statement. People have genetic predisposition for behaviors, not determinisms. The reason why these killers are bred in the first place is mostly because they are subjected to an environment of abuse, negligence, and violence plus having genetic predisposition can make them into psychopaths. People are not born into becoming anything. Both genetic and environmental factors affect our behaviour and phenotype. And besides, what makes you think anyone has rights? Basic human rights, infact? We have no rights. We have a set of temporary privillages in society and our rights can be taken away from us at any time. Just look at the War Measures Act in Canada during the October Crisis and Japanese Americans in WWII and you will understand all about your precious rights. It does not matter whom you elect or what type of political system it is, all political systems have elements of flaw and corruption. Our culture too is corrupt. The idea that this infinite material consumerism and this assumption of exponential economic growth without depleting resources can benefit society as a whole, all society I tell you will fail. If we truly want to change the future for the better, we need to reevaluate ourselves, reshaped our culture so that it promotes non-violence and freedom of choice, and educate people on what matters so that they are informed iand make correct decisions instead of been brainwashed by the mainstream media. Unless we change individuals and society as a whole, democratic, socialist, capitalist, fascist, and any form of governments will be doom to failure.

monster_rambo
03-18-2013, 10:46 PM
How about a democratic dictatorship?

Are you kidding me? Democratic dictatorship? Democracy is a system of making decision based on the choices of everyone in the society while dictatorship is a central authoritarian individual that makes most if not all the decisions of the society. You can't elect dictators because not only do the ideas cannot coexist, it is also logically flawed that you elect someone that makes all the decision because the idea of democracy is to account for the say of everyone (at least in theory) in the society. The assumption that dictatorship or any form of fascism that some individual can make the best interest for society is a flawed idea and has been proven time after time that it only oppresses people and leads to corruption.

shobhit7777777
03-18-2013, 11:07 PM
Are you kidding me? Democratic dictatorship? Democracy is a system of making decision based on the choices of everyone in the society while dictatorship is a central authoritarian individual that makes most if not all the decisions of the society. You can't elect dictators because not only do the ideas cannot coexist, it is also logically flawed that you elect someone that makes all the decision because the idea of democracy is to account for the say of everyone (at least in theory) in the society. The assumption that dictatorship or any form of fascism that some individual can make the best interest for society is a flawed idea and has been proven time after time that it only oppresses people and leads to corruption.

Elect me and be proven wrong

I'm Batman

monster_rambo
03-18-2013, 11:10 PM
Elect me and be proven wrong

I'm Batman

I'll make an exception

rupok2
03-18-2013, 11:48 PM
Elect me and be proven wrong

I'm Batman

Didn't you ever see the justice league episode where future batman creates a supposed utopian society through control? Look how that turned out to be.

monster_rambo
03-19-2013, 12:23 AM
I believe it goes with the saying: "Those who trade their freedoms for security deserve neither". Social stability and order does not have to be achieved through the means of authoritarian rule by a hand picked number of elites. People need to be educated and understand the society and people need to grow up in environment that teaches how to think critically, examine things with scrutiny, and epistemology. Only then, once we have a population of dynamic educated thinkers that can co-operate together instead of this idea of competition, can we achieve true social freedom. We don't need tyrants or central authority that makes poor decisions for society. This idea that freedom is equivalent of chaos is insane. First of all, if people are informed and learned to care for one another, then having the freedom to choose is not a bad idea because after all, people are educated and smart enough to make better decisions. Second, freedom is not equivalent of social disorder, in other words, people doing whatever they want and start killing each other. It is rather, there is a constraint of freedom or degrees of freedom so to speak, set by the constraints of environment and the society that allows people to make decisions to do what they want. Basically, they have freedom to do what they want as long as it does not violate another person's autonomy.

This is why I can seem to understand templar's ideology. They believe humans are weak and pity and requires control. Yes, this is true only if a person is subjected to an impoverish environment where they are inclined to make bad decisions. They also have to understand people have an amazing amount of potential to make scientific discoveries or do great things when they grow up or expose to a rich environment. If we make a friendly and educational environment that promotes these values, control over humans are not needed because they control themselves by making the best decisions they can.

Bloodfist84
03-19-2013, 02:12 PM
the only thing Assassins have going for them is they can jump into hay bales in a nifty way, and look cool with white hoods

white hoods that resemble eagles

RinoTheBouncer
03-20-2013, 04:35 PM
The idea that psychopaths have an innate desire to inflect pain on another human being because they are programmed by instinct is clearly an uninformed statement. People have genetic predisposition for behaviors, not determinisms. The reason why these killers are bred in the first place is mostly because they are subjected to an environment of abuse, negligence, and violence plus having genetic predisposition can make them into psychopaths. People are not born into becoming anything. Both genetic and environmental factors affect our behaviour and phenotype. And besides, what makes you think anyone has rights? Basic human rights, infact? We have no rights. We have a set of temporary privillages in society and our rights can be taken away from us at any time. Just look at the War Measures Act in Canada during the October Crisis and Japanese Americans in WWII and you will understand all about your precious rights. It does not matter whom you elect or what type of political system it is, all political systems have elements of flaw and corruption. Our culture too is corrupt. The idea that this infinite material consumerism and this assumption of exponential economic growth without depleting resources can benefit society as a whole, all society I tell you will fail. If we truly want to change the future for the better, we need to reevaluate ourselves, reshaped our culture so that it promotes non-violence and freedom of choice, and educate people on what matters so that they are informed iand make correct decisions instead of been brainwashed by the mainstream media. Unless we change individuals and society as a whole, democratic, socialist, capitalist, fascist, and any form of governments will be doom to failure.

I didn't mean that we already do have rights. I'm talking about the rights that people DESERVE to have such as sleeping at night without fearing waking up the next day and being beheaded because you wished you can travel out of your country (Saddam Hussein's reign) they'll tell you "Why do you want to get out of this country? do mean it's bad? DIE THEN" simple as that, with no bit of exaggeration or get executed for having a satellite dish that views all channels (also Saddam Hussein's reign). Same thing for other countries such as Korea when people are arrested for watching the film 2012 because it's a sign of "bad luck" since the year 2012 will mark the 100th anniversary of some political occasion in their country or something.

Those are the rights I'm talking about earning. I guess with Templars with minds like Cesare won't really care how you sleep or whether you live or die. In fact, their own family members will die if they stand in their way.

It's true that if people's minds are flawed then no system will work but to attempt to fix every person or to assume that any person alive will be a good person if they were born within a good society are more like fantasy than reality. How many families are nice and kind to their children while they grow up and abandon them? how many teens say "Dad, that's gay" just because he's being nice to his son? how many rich people turned out to kill people for joy? I don't assume that all those were brought up in a poisoned atmosphere or inherited it from somebody. Also, to assume that you can make the whole society good is also something unrealistic because there will always be conflict of interest, disagreements, competition and dislike which might turn to hate and lead to bad things happening that will influence other people's behaviors.

We do need to teach the masses to abandon most of their disgusting ways of thinking and behaviors such as bullying, racism, hate, sexism and the likes yet on the other hand, when discussing what type of government should we have, it definitely shouldn't be a Templar organization.