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Matrix.disc
02-18-2013, 09:16 PM
Welcome everybody, after a long waiting time, I have some good news to you about the Matrix.disc 2013 Pro Invitational!

Here are the tournament rules (still subject to clarification, but that's pretty much the shape of them):

Format:

Invitational,
Best 16 players invited,
First round Round-Robin 4 groups x 4 players each with match and rematch,
One point for winning each match (so up to two points to win for each opponent in group),
Top 2 from each group advances,
Three-way and Four-way ties resolved by additional matches,
Play-off stage with bo3 matches,
Final and bronze match bo5 matches,
Player made pre-constructed decks,
Players construct the decks from their card pool,
One deck for the whole tournament,
Registered decklists (including size of the deck),
Registered sideboard 15 cards (increased from the initial 8),
Sideboarding allowed from 2nd game on,
Sideboarding 1-for-1 fashion,
Planned start date: Second week of March!

Summary of the tournament prizes:

1st 1x Taipan + 1x Scarab + Shirt + card of his choice+ 150 000 Gold + Void Rising Premium Pack
2nd Death Adder 3500 + Shirt + 150 000 Gold + Void Rising Premium Pack
3rd Goliathus Std Speed + Shirt + 75 000 Gold + Void Rising Premium Pack
4th 50 000 Gold + Void Rising Premium Pack
16x Razer loot packs (per participant)+ 25 000 Gold

hydramarine
02-18-2013, 10:15 PM
So the decklists are revealed after the tournament is finished I take it?

Also, can you sideboard event cards?

Uraxor
02-18-2013, 10:27 PM
Are we going to see others' decks before games? (Since the games'll be commented online it'd be fair - otherwise people playing later on would get an advantage through watching the replays. Unless you ask for simultaneous rounds.) Sideboards could stay surprise though ...

on sideboards: what can be sideboarded? Cards? Events? Heroes?

are we binded by the name of the group; and if, is it only to faction, or are we expected to include the named Epic? does it have to be -playable- part of the deck? (e.g. running Fate Sealers and only having Atropos in for the rules' sake without actually playing it) (what if some don't have their named Epic?)
also, no changing of factions/initial placement in a faction group?

psychobabble.
02-18-2013, 11:20 PM
Just to make it clear that I don't have any skin in the game - I wouldn't expect to be anywhere near in consideration for being selected for this, nor would I accept an invitation because it's a huge pain for me to try to organise tournament games with my time zone and rl schedule. Having said that:


•Best 16 players invited,
Don't try to pretend that there is an objective standard for your selection, with no open qualifier event or any objective standard (unless you're actually taking the top 16 ELOs, which would be a bad standard, or have averaged out tounament performance over the past month or something) this'll just be the 16 players that you feel are the best. Even better, the rules should just state that you're picking 16 people fullstop then no one can complain about anything. There might still be drama then, but at least you haven't set yourself up for an argument that "oh, I'm actually better than X".

Also, any reason for selecting 8 as the sideboard size? I would have thought the MTG size of 15 would be better, as it'd allow you to run a playset of a different event and still have room for a different creature and other spell/fortune mix. with 8 cards, if you run a different event package you're almost left with no slots.

Matrix.disc
02-18-2013, 11:21 PM
No, group names don't mean anything - they have no influence on the tournament rules.

Decklists won't be public until the end of the tournament. The question about revealing the decks through replays is a really good one, but for now I am assuming we will play out all the matches in a group and then publish replays. Thank you for pointing out this problem, I will continue the search for an optimal solution.

You have to play one, the same deck for the whole tournament.

Sideboard can contain event cards and deck cards, but not heroes.

@psychobabble - you are 100% right. This is my personal, skewed, opinionated and indisputable choice of players.
The size of the sideboard can be readjusted soon, if it will turn out to be way too small. I do appreciate your comment and, again, it is a good and valuable one :)

r3tsa
02-18-2013, 11:52 PM
Any bans for cards considered?

Matrix.disc
02-19-2013, 12:00 AM
Yes, I am considering banning Tower of Oblivion. Nothing decided yet.

psychobabble.
02-19-2013, 12:09 AM
You don't need to ban tower with a sideboard tourney, especially if you allow 10 or preferably 15 sideboard slots. Decks might be weak to it game 1, but by swapping in 4x week of taxes (if they didn't start it) and 4 counter cards, then basically every deck has a very good chance of beating the current iterations. Yes, some decks that otherwise play zero fortune would be swapping in cosmic, but it's impactful enough against the tower deck atm that it'll still give you a good win % against it. With only 8 sideboard slots though, people might be forced to use up slots to shore up other weaknesses, so won't have the luxury of being able to hard-counter the tower deck. Allowing more slots would also allow people to side in more versatile soft counters, like additional stone shields or 2-drops (dropping higher cost creatures to lower your curve can be a good sideboard strategy, but one which takes up a lot of sideboard space), in addition to the hard counters.

I really recommend consideration of a bigger sideboard. One thing to think about with sideboarding is that you basically want to remove all of the dead cards in a particular matchup for something which is better, even if only by a little bit. Think about how many creature control cards many decks play which they will want to side out for any OTK matchup - that's easily more than 8 slots in a lot of decks.

Matrix.disc
02-19-2013, 01:55 AM
Again, psychobabble, you use compelling arguments for the 15 cards sideboard. I will surely consider it and inform you all about possible changes.

Uraxor
02-19-2013, 10:57 AM
I agree with psycho - you will most likely want to pack alternative set of events (in default Mana Storm/Taxes - but if you meet deck similar to yours they are useless and you might want to swap it for something else) - that cuts down to 4 right away. Which is Cosmic, because hey... otks! There goes your sideboard variety =S

Similar question: can I register deck of (e.g.) 65 cards and put the 6 cards over min limit into sideboard then? -^.^-

Pjovejas
02-19-2013, 07:33 PM
I would suggest for organizer to think about such thing: if the sidebords should be used only on swap principle ( I mean: 1 card in and one card out in such a way that the total deck card number is fixed), or if it would be allowed "to add some cards". I know, that most of best players do not tend to use >59 cards, but in some cases there may be a choise...

WalkingHawking
02-19-2013, 08:47 PM
Since it's a "pro" tournament, no one will be willing to play more than 59 cards, trust me :P

psychobabble.
02-19-2013, 11:51 PM
Btw, just to throw this as a thought out here, if you wanted a more objective entry criteria for any future events like this, you could consider having a self-reported daily tournament results system. Specify a qualifying timeframe (eg. 2 weeks) and set a threshold, say top 15 which roughly equates to tier 1. Have everyone interested in entering the tournamnet record all of their top 15 finishes in that period, verified by a screenshot of their notifications page, and award points on a reverse sliding scale (1 point for 15th place, 15 points for first place). Top X points-getters qualify for the tournament at the end of it. This would add an interesting meta-tournament on top of the regular daily tournament. Self-reporting is unfortunately the only way to do this; even if you could have someone watch the leaderboard right up until close, there's still the possibility of games after closing time affect the final result.

Matrix.disc
02-20-2013, 09:12 PM
Deck and Sideboard size and mechanics update:
- registered decklists (every single card)
- registered sideboards (every single card) - size: 15 cards
- exchanging cards with sideboard in 1-for-1 fashion i.e. your deck size must stay the same

Future invitations and seeds:
- seeding for top places is heavily considered
- subjective invite system will persist too
- possible open bracket

I updated the initial post too.

Le.Rancord
02-22-2013, 04:18 PM
Sounds nice, Cant wiat for the final version.

Ipwnfour
02-24-2013, 04:47 PM
Just wondering how do you play Swiss in a group of 4 players? :confused:

Matrix.disc
02-24-2013, 07:58 PM
Just wondering how do you play Swiss in a group of 4 players? :confused:

Durp. Brainfart!
I have corrected it already :) Of course I mean round-robin - one where everyone plays everyone. In this case twice, a match an a rematch with possible sideboard.
Thank you for pointing it out!

Harmbringer
02-26-2013, 12:45 PM
Anything banned or restricted by now?

C4r-n4ge
02-27-2013, 07:20 AM
Anything banned or restricted by now?

Why? When you have posibility to sideborad your cards then what is the reason for banning or restricting anything?

Harmbringer
02-27-2013, 09:59 AM
To be honest: I donīt care if anything is banned, I just want to know it, as it is important for the deck creation as you know :o
Also Martix.disc was thinking about to ban the Tower. Thatīs why I asked for it.

C4r-n4ge
02-27-2013, 10:44 AM
I don't think that banning Tower or any other card is needed right now. After nerf Prison/Tower deck i much less effective and not many people are using it with good results. And even if someone thinks that this deck is a problem for him then possibility of sidebording 15 cards will be very helpfull. In fact even despite the fact that I like playing this deck - probably I won't play it in the Tourney just because with the sideboard possibilte it is VERY easy to counter.
In my opinion the greatest problem of this game right now is not spells, fortunes or creatures but... Hero. Kieran which is the Hero with most OP passive ability in the whole game. Around 70% of daily Tier1 is playing Kieran right now - just because it is the easiest deck to achieve easy wins at the moment.

Harmbringer
02-27-2013, 10:58 AM
I feel the same, but as you can use your sideboard only in the 2nd game it can mean a lost game. Thatīs just tactic and has nothing to do with the gameplay.
But Iīm fine with both, Tower banned or not, I just need to know.
There are many easy counters for it, with Kirean even more cheap ones. So I donīt think that anyone will play OTK.

But I donīt think that Kirean is OP, this will change with more cards that restore HP. But curenntly there are many ways to get him done.

Ipwnfour
02-27-2013, 11:06 AM
Actually... Kieran is kinda OP.

Can you think of any creature/control deck that is able to beat Kieran consistently? I can't...
Only OTK can win consistently from Kieran, but suffers from the Side Board Format.

A creature/control deck that beats everything else and has no consistent counters is called OP in my book.

C4r-n4ge
02-27-2013, 11:07 AM
But I donīt think that Kirean is OP, this will change with more cards that restore HP. But curenntly there are many ways to get him done.

If he would not be then the most Tier1 players would not choose him... Reults of this Hero speaks for themselves. Of course - he would probably be less OP after the next expansion but as for now in my opinion he is OP...

Harmbringer
02-27-2013, 11:26 AM
The more Wolf Captains are available the better he gets. But the capatin is better with Siegfried I think.
The passive Ability is hard for some factions. And with WotL you can get riw of legions. But what do you think makes this passive OP?

The setup is great 2 Might, 1 Magic and this Ability. He is a great Hero.

Matrix.disc
02-27-2013, 01:49 PM
To clear up the situation and get rid of any doubts:
The final decision is no cards are banned from the tournament.

There are two main reasons for that decision.
1. I do not want to create a separate, awkward meta just for the tournament. I would prefer the decks appearing here to inspire the general population players and maybe even sprout new deck types.
2. With the 15 card sideboard there is no way any deck can outright kill another if you are prepared.

You can already start creating the decks as it is highly unlikely any rules regarding the playlists will change any more.

Harmbringer
02-27-2013, 02:54 PM
Thanks for clarification!

I just curious who will go Kieran if he is so OP ... hehe
Iīm going OTK :p

WalkingHawking
02-27-2013, 04:22 PM
I won't get into the Kieran OPness debate, since there's no possible discussion about it :P
But i have another question, is the event sidedecking a final decision?
I'm asking because, Imo, allowing events to be switched depending on who you play against would benefit a lot some decks that only play events for defensive reasons, while some other decks would still be stuck with most of their events, not having any/much room to switch them... and to be honest, sidedecking 1 event card has a huge impact on the game, compared to sidedecking any other kind of card.
As an example, the almighty 6/1/1 or 6/2/1 Nergal deck... it usually plays both Mana Storm and Week of Taxes, which is a big part of its success. Let's say he plays against Kieran, for example... then he can remove 4 Week of Taxes and add 4 Week of the Mercenaries...
See where am i going? That would give him a huge advantage in 90% of their games.
On the other hand, a Shaar OTK, a Spell Ishuma, a Fortunes Ishuma and a lot more would be pretty much stuck with their events.
Just want a clarification, since i'm still trying to decide which deck i'll use and i'm trying to find a deck that can provide fun to the spectators, while being highly adaptable to every matchup.

C4r-n4ge
02-27-2013, 04:31 PM
As an example, the almighty 6/1/1 or 6/2/1 Nergal deck... it usually plays both Mana Storm and Week of Taxes, which is a big part of its success. Let's say he plays against Kieran, for example... then he can remove 4 Week of Taxes and add 4 Week of the Mercenaries...


What advantage exactly?. Because Kieran often also uses 4 Weeks of Mercernaries so adding 4 Weeks of Merceraries and removing 4 Weeks of Taxes in Nergal deck against Kieran will help Kieran the same as Nergal.....

WalkingHawking
02-27-2013, 04:42 PM
You probably don't understand what an example is, even if it wasn't the best example.

Edit: Btw, Kieran plays 4x week of the mercenaries because he can't play Mana Storm, Tamed Spirits(glories are key), Path of the Ancestors(denying your own TP isn't good),etc. so he runs Week of the Mercenaries and it fits him well because he is the one controlling the board since the start in 90% of the games, but, you should be able to see who benefits more, since there are about 15 creatures more in one of the decks.

psychobabble.
02-27-2013, 09:40 PM
I'm surprised at the amount of QQing in this thread about Kieran. You know what beats Kieran? Creatures of cost 4 or greater. It's not rocket science. Nergal creatures, 6/4 ariana in particular just own him. He's good at dealing with weenies, but loses to a dedicated creature deck.

Also, don't be surprised if some otk players figure out a transformational sideboard plan for game 2 where they side out their combo and play a weaker creature-based version of their deck. Definitely try to test that out to see if it's viable if you're worried about it.

r3tsa
02-27-2013, 09:46 PM
Moar great advices plz.

hydramarine
02-27-2013, 10:48 PM
Kieran is not weak to mid creatures build. Even if you use Path of Ancestors and cover 2 lanes with superior muscle power, he can TP your creatures away or he can Time Jump and sneak damage through.

WalkingHawking
02-28-2013, 02:26 AM
I'm surprised at the amount of QQing in this thread about Kieran. You know what beats Kieran? Creatures of cost 4 or greater. It's not rocket science. Nergal creatures, 6/4 ariana in particular just own him. He's good at dealing with weenies, but loses to a dedicated creature deck.

It seems like you didn't play much against Kieran or maybe you just wanted to show how good you are, with your awesome anti-Kieran tactics.
In two words: TP>T4+ Creatures
Cheap big hp blockers and mass removal tools for early game, that's the only viable counter to Kieran, and even having them you can lose to good Kieran hands.


Also, don't be surprised if some otk players figure out a transformational sideboard plan for game 2 where they side out their combo and play a weaker creature-based version of their deck. Definitely try to test that out to see if it's viable if you're worried about it.

I can't see how that would work against any deck still playing counters.

integritytiger
02-28-2013, 03:19 AM
Actually, I find Kieran matches up unfavourably with necro. Necro has a lot of flying creatures that negate his guards, necro has incorporeal creatures that only radiant glory can deal with, necro has a lot of life drain creatures that negate his hero ability somewhat, necro has a lot of anti-retaliation creatures and Kieran generally has real trouble killing off some of the mid-tier necro creatures, particularly archlich.

If necro can get to mid-late game, it's almost impossible for Kieran to wrestle control back. Of course, the problem is getting there. With early tithe collectors, sun bursts and word of lights, Kieran is almost always being the aggressor. I use Seria and a few good geysers (Haven is always forced to stack in cross formation) always turns the match around. If you don't have reliable means of turning the game in your favour with support spells or fortunes, Kieran is a nightmare. Otherwise I find him pretty manageable. I actually like seeing a Kieran on the other side. :)

Against other factions he is stronger though, necro is his weakness.

WalkingHawking
02-28-2013, 01:31 PM
Actually, I find Kieran matches up unfavourably with necro. Necro has a lot of flying creatures that negate his guards, necro has incorporeal creatures that only radiant glory can deal with, necro has a lot of life drain creatures that negate his hero ability somewhat, necro has a lot of anti-retaliation creatures and Kieran generally has real trouble killing off some of the mid-tier necro creatures, particularly archlich.

If necro can get to mid-late game, it's almost impossible for Kieran to wrestle control back. Of course, the problem is getting there. With early tithe collectors, sun bursts and word of lights, Kieran is almost always being the aggressor. I use Seria and a few good geysers (Haven is always forced to stack in cross formation) always turns the match around. If you don't have reliable means of turning the game in your favour with support spells or fortunes, Kieran is a nightmare. Otherwise I find him pretty manageable. I actually like seeing a Kieran on the other side. :)

Against other factions he is stronger though, necro is his weakness.

Kieran using guards = bad Kieran
Btw, this isn't a Kieran thread, we should stop this.
I'm still waiting for clarification on my answer.

Uraxor
03-04-2013, 04:08 PM
Matrix:
*Sideboarding allowed from 2nd game on

Does that mean 2nd game per opponent, or 2nd game in general?
Also, when are the replays going to go public? Not all people will be able to play on one given day, even first (set of) game(s) might take few days.

We could be getting some final instructions, since the announced starting date is approaching fast!

psychobabble.
03-04-2013, 11:12 PM
The concept of sideboarding is pretty simple. In a best of 3 or best of 5 match, after the first game is played you get to sideboard. You always start the first game in a match with your initially registered deck, sideboarding happens after that game.

r3tsa
03-05-2013, 12:06 AM
I hardly suggest rule to even out going 1st/2nd in 1st stage.

WalkingHawking
03-05-2013, 12:29 AM
I hardly suggest rule to even out going 1st/2nd in 1st stage.

Yeah, it would be nice.

psychobabble.
03-05-2013, 12:39 AM
that's a good point, about methods to reduce first turn advantage. In MTG, the first game in a best of X match is random (except for some top 8s in big events, where the player that's seeded higher from the swiss rounds chooses). In subsequent games, the loser of the previous game gets to decide who goes first. This means that it's not possible to win a best of X match without playing at least one game in your non-favoured starting position. Might be worth doing that here, although it'd be hard to implement because you'd need to make sure both players have real time out of game communication so that the loser can say whether they want to go first or second BEFORE seeing their hand in the second game :). With the post-game chat bug, it's too unreliable to be able to just use the in-game communication.

r3tsa
03-05-2013, 12:54 AM
The best scenario is new mechanic implemented by devs in game lobby, so actually before the game starts. Seriously that shouldn't take too much effort.

Matrix.disc
03-06-2013, 10:09 AM
Hello guys! Sorry for a good couple of days of radio silence, but I have been quite busy with other stuff :) I am going to post more info about the tournament today afternoon.

On the topic of going first/second - what do you suggest, I'd like to hear a couple of arguments on this issue before creating a rule.

Ipwnfour
03-06-2013, 12:08 PM
Hello guys! Sorry for a good couple of days of radio silence, but I have been quite busy with other stuff :) I am going to post more info about the tournament today afternoon.

On the topic of going first/second - what do you suggest, I'd like to hear a couple of arguments on this issue before creating a rule.

As some decks clearly benefit more from going 2nd than others, it would be less random when both players will go 1st/2nd equally as much. I prefere taking turns of going 1st/2nd: so first game will be random, 2nd game the oposite, 3rd game same as game 1, 4th game oposite, 5th game random.


A different issue: the first match you will not know your opponent's hero. All matches thereafter you will know who is playing which hero. Therefore I would like to suggest to announce all heroes before any games have been played.

Furthermore I would like the opportunity to use your side deck before game 1. Otherwise randomness could lose you the first game: who starts 2nd in the first game against unteched/unchanged deck has clear advantage. Allowing to use your side board may allow you to anticipate randomness.

r3tsa
03-06-2013, 03:20 PM
Unless devs push some update, I don't see a better soolution than suggested by Ipwnfour.

WalkingHawking
03-06-2013, 03:36 PM
Same here.

Matrix.disc
03-08-2013, 01:16 PM
I have updated the main post with the prizes for the tournament.

Uraxor
03-08-2013, 01:21 PM
Any chance the names could hyperlink to the actual items? :)
Otherwise that looks... astonishing <3


and @MnM's suggestion: the one issue I have with it: I don't like the idea of being forced to discard a good draw and risk a poor one just for going from the wrong position =S (as I assume it'd have to be done on the trial & error base, till the game assigns contestants the 'demanded' position)

r3tsa
03-08-2013, 02:04 PM
Let's push devs then! xD

Keabard
03-08-2013, 02:34 PM
Great job dealing with Razer for these prizes. Any idea of what the razer loots are composed of ?

r3tsa
03-08-2013, 02:41 PM
Don't spoil, surprise is always nice. :X

Harmbringer
03-08-2013, 03:10 PM
anyway, I didnīt expect to get anything just for taking part of....
Iīm flashed.

Any news on how to record all games?

Werolt
03-08-2013, 03:11 PM
Any news when we`re going do play?;)

Uraxor
03-08-2013, 03:28 PM
@replays; my laptop can't handle anything more than sending the in-game replays ... =S

also, can the winner ask for Phrias as the card of choice? :D

Harmbringer
03-08-2013, 03:31 PM
@replays; my laptop can't handle anything more than sending the in-game replays ... =S

also, can the winner ask for Phrias as the card of choice? :D

Youīre not going to win :p

r3tsa
03-08-2013, 03:31 PM
I think that would be actually a waste. xD

Yup, only my Jezziel can win!

Uraxor
03-08-2013, 03:46 PM
Youīre not going to win :p

and where did that come from? :o

+ if you read what I wrote and think about it, you'll realize 2 things:
1) I wrote the winner, not I
2) I was alluding towards potential gap in the rule, where winner might want to ask for an achivement hero, be it Phrias, Akane, Ariana, Kieran or Crag Hack (for completeness of the list)

WalkingHawking
03-08-2013, 03:48 PM
Hm... i'm wondering what's better... foil Kieran or Takana Osore, Lord of the Broken Chats.
Jokes aside, awesome job Matrix & Co., really awesome.

zenithale
03-08-2013, 06:48 PM
Any news when we`re going do play?;)
From the trounament rules (google doc sent to us, and updated the 24/03 (yeah I don't know how that's possible :p, or that's the planned date):

For now, we are assuming the second weekend of March

Ipwnfour
03-09-2013, 01:43 AM
Just wondering when we should (ultimately) submit our decks + sideboard.

Werolt
03-09-2013, 09:24 AM
From the trounament rules (google doc sent to us, and updated the 24/03 (yeah I don't know how that's possible :p, or that's the planned date):

Ok, ok i`vent noticed;) But to be honest - second weekend of march starts today;)

Btw, great work Matrix.

Matrix.disc
03-11-2013, 06:09 PM
Hey guys.
First of all I'd like to apologize for the lacking communication on my side. It turns out that running a tournament isn't as easy as it looks like and especially when it is something that bites heavily into your free time :)

Now, to give you some clear view on what's going to happen:

- the start date has obviously not met the first-most-favourable-date. You can expect about a week of delay.
- as for now there is no plan to release the decks/champions/factions to the competitors in your groups, so the deck registration can happen up till the moment of tournament start. Let's say just for now, that you have time until Sunday 17th of March
- there is an actual, full, official announcement of the tournament coming in a couple of days
- we are still working out the way how to record the games

That's about it for now.

Harmbringer
03-13-2013, 01:36 PM
hope it will start within the next weeks... ;-)