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PREDITOR OPS
02-11-2013, 12:05 AM
I personally think a grenade launcher that can kill or knock people down is to powerful for a tactical game. Now maybe to use to blow holes in walls to change to open buildings yeah but not to kill. claymore and stun mines are self explanatory any thing that takes the postion someone else could be watching does not need to be in a tactical shooter call of duty maybe but not a tactical shooter. but what do you guys think

PublicVermin
02-11-2013, 02:31 AM
Noob tubes are ****ing stupid and have no place in any game. However, Claymores i have no beef with and i'll explain; EMP's take them out and can be spotted while playing carefully. Tubes are just a P.O.S. way of dealing with an *** beating they don't know how to get around.

PREDITOR OPS
02-11-2013, 03:42 AM
Noob tubes are ****ing stupid and have no place in any game. However, Claymores i have no beef with and i'll explain; EMP's take them out and can be spotted while playing carefully. Tubes are just a P.O.S. way of dealing with an *** beating they don't know how to get around.

I felt the same way before I played on gamebattles against good teams. Going out the way to check every corner for claymores wastes alot of time( we only have 2mins and 30 sec per objective) and claymores are just unearned kills but I can deal with claymores in pubs. but stun mines need to go

PublicVermin
02-11-2013, 04:25 AM
I felt the same way before I played on gamebattles against good teams. Going out the way to check every corner for claymores wastes alot of time( we only have 2mins and 30 sec per objective) and claymores are just unearned kills but I can deal with claymores in pubs. but stun mines need to go

i wouldn't mind if the "Set and forget" stuff was taken out, but not before tubes.

shobhit7777777
02-11-2013, 08:48 AM
In a game which explicitly embraces the concept of "fighting dirty".....HEDPs, Clays and Stuns are perfectly welcome.

I'm tired of this MLG fair gameplay BS...."unfair" "cheap"....well that is the point.

Point is to emulate spec ops squads.....they don't fight clean or fair.

Whats smart about placing a Clay?
Well, for one to net kills you need to smart about placement...you can't just chuck it in the middle of the street...and if you DO get a kill by a haphazardly placed clay...then the ****er who died deserved for being a complete moron.

Honestly, if you're dying by clays SO often then its time to check your playstyle. Clays and mines enforce a considered and careful approach....try it out..its rather fun.

Got a team full of Scouts chucking Clays? Engineer up and chuck magic balls. Stun mines? time for EMP rain. HEDP? hard luck...stay mobile and don't be obvious....or eff it and grab your own launcher.

@P-Vermin

lol you softy! ;)

PublicVermin
02-11-2013, 03:23 PM
In a game which explicitly embraces the concept of "fighting dirty".....HEDPs, Clays and Stuns are perfectly welcome.

I'm tired of this MLG fair gameplay BS...."unfair" "cheap"....well that is the point.

Point is to emulate spec ops squads.....they don't fight clean or fair.

Whats smart about placing a Clay?
Well, for one to net kills you need to smart about placement...you can't just chuck it in the middle of the street...and if you DO get a kill by a haphazardly placed clay...then the ****er who died deserved for being a complete moron.

Honestly, if you're dying by clays SO often then its time to check your playstyle. Clays and mines enforce a considered and careful approach....try it out..its rather fun.

Got a team full of Scouts chucking Clays? Engineer up and chuck magic balls. Stun mines? time for EMP rain. HEDP? hard luck...stay mobile and don't be obvious....or eff it and grab your own launcher.

@P-Vermin

lol you softy! ;)

I agree with you to a point Shobit, however, i still can't come to terms with HEDP's.... The are simply terrible. And honestly, at this point, i tihnk all of use on here who have been playing long enough KNOW where the clays will be placed. The only time I REALLY get killed by them are when i am trying to push the OBJ and have no EMP's left and just want to clear the way for my team (sacrifice), or if a clay is placed in a bad spot that i really don't expect it (middle of the street...epic observation skills on my part). However, as i said, they can be taken out with EMP's, arm yourselve with a buddy who plays rifleman and an ammo box, unlimited EMP's for every corner. But HEDP's..... No..... Never...... ******y weapon for ****** bags up to ****** baggery.

meathead_79
02-11-2013, 04:10 PM
My only issue is with the HEPD launcher. It can be fired from 100 meters away and take out a fires squad. They need to get rid of the HEDP side arm, and the penalty for using the underbarrel HEDP should be alot less control. Right now, the loss in control is not that bad.

irunbk0826
02-11-2013, 05:19 PM
I don't have any problem with them. They're in the game for everyone to use, so there is no unfair advantage there. If you don't like using them, that's your personal choice.

GR90
02-11-2013, 07:02 PM
I would want lethal launchers taken out as i find them overpowered and you always get people running round with them as there primary weapon. I would also take claymores and stuns out and just leave C4 at least then you have to detonate it.

PREDITOR OPS
02-11-2013, 08:42 PM
I would want lethal launchers taken out as i find them overpowered and you always get people running round with them as there primary weapon. I would also take claymores and stuns out and just leave C4 at least then you have to detonate it.

THAT IS A AWESOME IDEA C4 will force them to at least be aware that they are coming. C4 would be perfect

theonlytime
02-11-2013, 09:27 PM
My only issue is with the HEPD launcher. It can be fired from 100 meters away and take out a fires squad. They need to get rid of the HEDP side arm, and the penalty for using the underbarrel HEDP should be alot less control. Right now, the loss in control is not that bad.

I remember someone managed to kill me in Siege lobby with an HEDP and the shot was quite distant, that it resembled that of a football player tossing a football across the field to a touchdown.

Explosives play as counter-measures, esp. when you want to take out multiple targets in one precise location. The use of grenades were useful to take out 2-3 targets. It depends on how they're used. What Ubisoft devs can do for the sequel is perhaps drop the Sensor count to 1, if they're planning on keeping the same future technology. In Crysis 3 MP beta for Hunter Mode I have access to one Sensor. Seeking cloaked Nanosuited soldiers is difficult even with a sensor, it depends how it's used though. Sound is the only key to find them. On-topic, an Engineer and a Scout should not have a Launcher as a Secondary in my opinion when the Launcher itself affects speed and mobility of Scout and makes Engineer quite slow too. It did help me as a decoy/counter for the adversary but it seems fair to exclude it.

PREDITOR OPS
02-12-2013, 02:58 AM
I have to disagree with you on this one. We shouldn't get distracted by the choice of language - "unfair", "cheap" etc - as what some equipment choices lead to are unenjoyable matches where both teams are forced to adopt the same overpowered gear. Providing a gameplay that attracts competitive players and clans is essential for a thriving community to help the game survive on multiplayer.

If the presence of specific equipment reduces the game to a narrow set of options around placing/countering that equipment or dodging/firing that equipment then it becomes harmful to the game itself no matter how realistic it may be. Competitive matches require a set time limit to work, and if that time is spent with the mundane task of clearing traps then it isn't spent doing things that are more fun - finding people to shoot for instance. Add them to poorly laid out maps with predictable routes then you get a paint-by-numbers predictable game.

Emulating spec-ops? Yes up to a point. No spec-ops team in the world would accept the odds you need to get a good, tactical video game in adversarial multiplayer so compromises need to be made on total realism vs gameplay. You made a really good point they tried dumbing down the game down and giving us all the equipment you could imagine and now looked what happened to their fan base.

shobhit7777777
02-13-2013, 11:16 AM
I have to disagree with you on this one. We shouldn't get distracted by the choice of language - "unfair", "cheap" etc - as what some equipment choices lead to are unenjoyable matches where both teams are forced to adopt the same overpowered gear. Providing a gameplay that attracts competitive players and clans is essential for a thriving community to help the game survive on multiplayer.


True. Which is definitely a valid complaint. But overall, wouldn't you agree that so called "Unfair" tactics are actually legit and should be included in a game like GR? Customizable lobbies....a must for GRFSN



If the presence of specific equipment reduces the game to a narrow set of options around placing/countering that equipment or dodging/firing that equipment then it becomes harmful to the game itself no matter how realistic it may be. Competitive matches require a set time limit to work, and if that time is spent with the mundane task of clearing traps then it isn't spent doing things that are more fun - finding people to shoot for instance. Add them to poorly laid out maps with predictable routes then you get a paint-by-numbers predictable game.


If the absence of specific equipment in the game reduces it to a narrow set of options around running around shooting people then the lack of such equipment becomes harmful to the game.

The way I see it GRFS is tech and team centric game. The intel loop, the focus on "hacks" as legit mechanics (Cloaks, X-ray, Sensors) are all part of enforcing the design philosophy of playing as an extremely advanced member of a special operations unit.

I can see WHY people wouldn't like it.

Like I've stated before...competitive play doesn't excite me at all...the idea of it seems like playing every game the same way....move and shoot.

GRFS at least has an identity in MP. It has a very focused gameplay design. Turning it into another TPS would be sad IMO


What I am open to discuss is how this tech can be tweaked and changed to provide more balance. And as it stands Clays and HEDPs...IMO...are fair. Sensor Balls, I accept.....they are not even remotely plausible and even the act of spamming them isn't fun.

That said

I don't believe that GRFS is a perfect MP game. It has a LOT of room for improvement. But it is trying to bring in a different gameplay style..one which shouldn't be diluted with competitive play tropes.

Oh and clearing traps isn't nearly as mundane as you point it out to be. It requires awareness, cautious movement and well placed EMPs...maybe even communication with other teammates...and if you're asking for the removal of said traps which encourage a more measured approach, then I have to disagree with you.

meathead_79
02-13-2013, 10:46 PM
I remember someone managed to kill me in Siege lobby with an HEDP and the shot was quite distant, that it resembled that of a football player tossing a football across the field to a touchdown.

Explosives play as counter-measures, esp. when you want to take out multiple targets in one precise location. The use of grenades were useful to take out 2-3 targets. It depends on how they're used. What Ubisoft devs can do for the sequel is perhaps drop the Sensor count to 1, if they're planning on keeping the same future technology. In Crysis 3 MP beta for Hunter Mode I have access to one Sensor. Seeking cloaked Nanosuited soldiers is difficult even with a sensor, it depends how it's used though. Sound is the only key to find them. On-topic, an Engineer and a Scout should not have a Launcher as a Secondary in my opinion when the Launcher itself affects speed and mobility of Scout and makes Engineer quite slow too. It did help me as a decoy/counter for the adversary but it seems fair to exclude it.

I was playing a match on Mill and a teammate was standing on the ghost side between the stone bridge & wooden bridge, about 20 meters back from the bridges and killed a bodark trying to carpture the objective an objective in the graveyard. That is just crazy, we all just laughed because it actually worked.

tommy022483
02-14-2013, 10:10 AM
I think claymores and stun mines should be removed from squad matches and any competitive squad vs squad game. Think about how much team work is required to hold an objective with out claymores and stun mines watching your back. I also think a field computer should be required to data hack but anyone can stun. wow almost forgot the UCAV -_-
oh and you should get some reward for playing squad matches. Something extra that people would want.

shobhit7777777
02-14-2013, 12:30 PM
Gets us back to the less is more argument; add too much equipment and you start to reduce the feeling of being a skilled reconnaissance Ghost. Anyone can be invisible with invisible camo and anyone can spot an enemy with an OTR scanner. Using terrain and timing for the former and a sharp eye for the latter is more rewarding than having equipment do it for you.


New features bring with them new skill sets. A cloak brings with it the need to conceal yourself smartly. You're viewing GRFS from a legacy GR perspective....framing it within the skill requirements and challenges of a completely different game. That would be unfair IMO

The need to find good vegetation is replaced by the need to have a good background and be mindful of your surrounding colour. Is one more challenging than the other? I don't think so. In a game, I feel that both tasks are equally difficult and skill based. A cloak, in my experience, is as useful as the guy using it is smart.

And an OTR scanner is most effective when you have a commanding view of enemy egress routes....so isn't it right that using an OTR scanner effectively is also skill based and requires some forethought? Yes you can swipe it around the screen but how many will you actually tag? Doesn't it require that the player using an OTR actually get to a place which has good sightlines and stay there for a good period?

With all the new tech you have different tactics...wouldn't you agree? The only thing we can argue here is whether they suit your personal preference or not.

Less is More is not a universally applicable sound byte IMO. It works of course..but not everywhere. Consider that GRFS is pretty lean on the number of tech available to each class...the game at its core is quite simple.

Eitherway, GRFS is a tech and intel based shooter heavily focused on coordinated teamwork....barring MGS Online (I haven't played it myself but I'll take Phoenix's word for it) I don't think many shooters provide such an experience

Very few games encourage stalking and mugging an enemy on his own
very few games encourage stealthy gameplay as does GRFS with the intel loop
very few games have classes dependant on each other to such a degree

And very few games are TPV shooters.

You and I both know that OGR is not coming back....and we also know that GRFS had a huge identity crisis. MP is one area where they managed to get a cohesive design work together and get something fresh (IMO). Lets try and improve that. Sneaky, dirty gameplay is not very common...I'm just saying...let this game have it at least...and not turn into another vanilla move-shoot-skillz shooter


Which is why options are a must. My personal preference is that map design and harsh penalties for being hit (osk and no regen) encourage the measured approach not crawling across a minefield probing with a bayonet as it were.

Just those two options won't enforce that pace

Mines, data hack threats, traps etc. are all essential in GRFS to make sure you don't become reckless. To your list I would like to add a cover system which gets rid of god view and proper peeking and leaning mechanics.

I think with the additions you and I suggested...coupled with customizable lobbies the next game can be really good.

PublicVermin
02-14-2013, 06:48 PM
I have to agree with both AI and Shobit, by which i mean "Less is more" whilst not losing the identity of GRFS. I like the idea of the intel, simply because i like how i need to be more careful and how i can bait and trap the enemy with it. All in all, i think GR:Next would need more of a "tummy tuck", and not a complete "Rhinoplasty" of a make over, if you catch what i'm throwing..... You dig what i'm burrying? lol

shobhit7777777
02-15-2013, 08:56 AM
I have to agree with both AI and Shobit, by which i mean "Less is more" whilst not losing the identity of GRFS. I like the idea of the intel, simply because i like how i need to be more careful and how i can bait and trap the enemy with it. All in all, i think GR:Next would need more of a "tummy tuck", and not a complete "Rhinoplasty" of a make over, if you catch what i'm throwing..... You dig what i'm burrying? lol

I get you PV.

I understand that there are major flaws with some of the tech....but I want them tweaked not removed. The overall gameplay is pretty good IMO

PublicVermin
02-15-2013, 02:51 PM
I get you PV.

I understand that there are major flaws with some of the tech....but I want them tweaked not removed. The overall gameplay is pretty good IMO

exactly, hence the "tummy tuck".... Horrible analogy, i know lol

Kaiskune
02-15-2013, 05:41 PM
exactly, hence the "tummy tuck".... Horrible analogy, i know lol

I'd say liposuction is a more appropriate analogy for Future Solder. a lot of s**t needs shifting and altering to make the game shine. you might be better off just dumping it in a tub on industrial de-greaser

to the Op's points
Like i said in the thread you did a while ago, the Greb Punters of Future Soldier are hardly the finger of god that they were on the GRAWs.

the Stun system I dont think needs altering at all, the tasers have a good range but (not seeing the point of codifying the game anymore than the french did I cant believe i'm saying this) perhaps a non-lethal take down could be devised in the next game using the taser, if memory serves they have 2 functions. range shot (firing the **** thing) and direct charge (touching the barrel contacts to the target.

for clay mores i think most importantly the devs need to get the CoD misconception that claymores are motion sensor standard out of their skulls. claymores are not fire and forget technology, I cannot understand why Paris took the CoD approach when they had a perfectly functional system set up in GRAW.

shobhit7777777
02-16-2013, 11:01 AM
The point of technology is to make the task it replaces easier; it enhances performance. It introduces different skills, yes, the skill to use the technology, but its very purpose is to overcome the difficulty you face when performing the same task without it. By doing so it reduces the skill needed and therefore erodes the potential difference between players. Using the terrain and timing to move across a map unseen, superior map craft and nerve have been made easier with optical camo. Spotting someone has been simplified to the extent of being ridiculous with the OTR scanner. Getting to a good reconnaissance spot is easier and the job is easier, because you can scan a map with much reduced risk.


I disagree. While the tech does make certain tasks easier..it brings with it a whole new set of tactics and challenges. The tech is not OP since it does its specific task very well it too has several drawbacks and requires experience and learning to make the most out of it.

Cloaking makes hiding easier...but then it opens up an alternate set of problems that come with the tech. Backgrounding is more important than ever, lighting plays a huge role. I don't think I need to elaborate how easy it can be to find poorly cloaked fellas. Bottom line is that it opens up new avenues but at the same time has its own set of issues that need to be mastered, new set of tactics that need to be explored.
You still need to be smart about it.

And getting to a recon spot is easier and scanning is easier....fair enough...but lets not forget the options that this opens up for us (Forgetting for a moment that the other team also has "tripwires" and various ways to counter such a tactic) it encourages coordination because recon (in the true sense of the word) is accessible to all encouraged. The presence of an OTR and cloak coupled with the intel loop and the points awarded all encourage players to drop the whole run-shoot gameplay playstyle and actually fulfill team oriented roles.

Now to address the point of the whole "Skill" thing. I can, from personal experience, confidently say that the majority of the people OTR'ing are not doing it very well. It takes a lot of Scout hours, a specific playstyle and really really smart placement to get OTR'ing right. I can say this confidence bordering arrogance because I myself have spent a lot of time getting it down to T.
Random scanning is a way to get cheap intel...but then again...I guess that too is one tactic in a tool kit of many. But for maximum potential you need to have a smart, patient scout who sneaks into a prime post and is patient enough to not kill everything in his/her way.

This brings us back to my original point - While the tech (OTR) certainly makes a task easier (Spotting people) it does bring with it a new set of tactics and issues that require the player to be smart and thoughtful (OTR lets the enemy know he/she has been spotted and requires direct LOS and a really good spot to be of any use)




Teams with sharp eyed spotters are now equalled by teams with an OTR equipped. Competition eroded, challenge reduced, interest evaporated and community deserted. The camo and the OTR are a good example of the fundamental flaw in the concept of FS. Tech and counter tech, the existence of one being overpowered, the existence of both destroying the essence of the game.

Can't it be said that you still require eagle eyes to spot the smarter scouts? Tech and Counter-tech also lead to new tactics and counter to those. Can I not also say that the lack of tech can be considered as limited options...thereby decreasing the multitude of approaches one can use to a certain situation? That in a simple COD like Move-Shoot shooter the complexities may be lost?

Can I not say that the challenge presents itself in a different form as the team being OTR'd has to now coordinate smoke and movement?

I look at it this way - the more ways you are attacked and harassed...the more options you will have in terms of countering them and learning new tactical options. A multitude of actions may lead to deeper gameplay because since there is so much to do and use you can have more permutations and combinations - which simply put, can equate to more tactical choice



Whilst I understand the desire behind Tommy's big idea, it has failed. The intel has had the opposite effect of encouraging stealth. The multiplayer I am experiencing is one where stealth gets you killed, you have to keep moving and moving fast or the intel renders you a sitting duck. The play is more aggressive and fast paced and even the hack is an aggressive tactic not a stealth tactic the way it is deployed by most teams. There aren't many scouts cleverly setting stun traps, and stalking. Hacking is a full frontal assault tactic and teams have found that aggressively exploiting it ensures dominance.

I think the fundamental difference between our POVs is largely affected by our personal experiences

I have experienced the type of gameplay you mention....indulged in it even. But 70% of my experience..as a Scout...fast or slow...has largely been about stealth. Flanking, sniping, mining, OTR'ing....GRFS is the first Shooter where I've gone full stealth....I'm talking about Splinter Cell stuff.

Scouts not playing smart - their loss. I chalk it up as another tactic and given how different my personal scout experience has been...admire the game's versatility.

I guess it all comes down to the players.....



It's not OGR I want back it is the feel of Ghost Recon. This one is better than BF3 and CoD in my opinion and I enjoy it (11 days now). However it is missing the essential tension and suspense that made its predecessors greats.

A tummy-tuck won't cure this one, guys. It is a Frankenstein with 8 legs to make it run faster, 12 arms and a dozen eyes to make it see better. It needs major amputations to strip it back to the beauty it once was.

This...I think I can agree with.

While I do feel that tech and intel stuff does add a new dimension......I do feel there the game can be leaner and meaner. Changes to the XP reward system, the cover system, the health system, map design, weapons handling and shooting mechanics - M110s being used as PDWs, changes to the hacking mechanics, sensor balls etc.


@Kaiskune

for clay mores i think most importantly the devs need to get the CoD misconception that claymores are motion sensor standard out of their skulls. claymores are not fire and forget technology, I cannot understand why Paris took the CoD approach when they had a perfectly functional system set up in GRAW.

+100

I would give anything for the ability to set tripwires or switch between command detonate mode and trip wires. It would actually make the act of mining more challenging and not just a simple arc placement and plop goes the mine.
It would require careful placement and even more flexibility as to how and where the mine is tripped...

Jazz117Volkov
02-16-2013, 12:18 PM
n00b tubes are ridiculously cheap.
I mean, its fair, we can all use them, but I'm pretty sure their exclusion wouldn't upset anyone (who can aim with a rifle).

Mines are great fun. Yeah, they're kinda free-kills, but unless you're with a friend, there's no other way to watch your back while sniping.
They also work as a warning devices -- when Bravo team's playing fcuk fcuk in the other team's spawn, a claymore on your flank will save an objective, for sure. Elevates the tactical aspects of the game IMO.

Data hacks however, should really be localized to fire-teams.
I'm a bit tired of getting compromised because of idiotic lone wolves.

BS PALADIN
02-16-2013, 12:46 PM
That's a long post lol. But very thoughtful. Unlike people in here I didn't buy or play the full retail game. The demo was enough to me running for the hills. I think people should remember that OGR used a lot of future tech in it as well. It had PDAs, enemy spotting, sensors, threat designators and advanced future weaponry. I think the two main differences with GRFS were that the tech was semi believable and that it could be tweaked in multiplayer. This took a step further in GR2 which I believe ( especially if played in FPS ) was the best Ghost Recon experience to date. GR2 could easily be shaped from old tech and new tech gameplay in the host options. Wouldn't GRFS have benefited from the option to turn off cloaks, sensors etc and increased weapon damage. There would have been a lot more people from the previous games playing the game. Lastly claymores in GR2 were only detonated by the guy with the switch. And they didn't have red lasers coming out of them ( ALA COD4 ) so people could spot them. Then again GR2 maps were ( mostly ) large and open meaning it took skill to plant a meaningful claymore. I truly believe that GRFS's downfall ( and GRFS wasn't a hit by any stretch of the imagination ) was a certain degree of ignorance by the publishers and developers.

JustHatched
02-16-2013, 04:55 PM
I guess I am one of the few whom has little issue with the tech. I have been tubed on many occasions and have used it to get out of situations when under other conditions I would certainly have gotten killed. I only get ticked off at the tech when I die, but not because of the tech itself but my own stupidity for not looking around the corner for a mine or something.

My stand is that anybody has access to the same tech (given where they are in level progress) so if you don't like something used on you, then use it back.

Phoenixmgs
02-17-2013, 05:17 AM
Wow, all of this talk and the most broken thing in the whole game hasn't even been mentioned: THE BACKSCATTER

The backscatter is a sensor that lasts all game, you don't know you're detected, and has no counter. You can EMP the player, but that only takes the backscatter out for like 10 seconds. The game is just littered with scrubs using the backscatter + noobtube + frag combo, then refilling with their ammo box. Anybody that still plays regularly will definitely agree with this (there was player run tourney not too long ago and the only thing that was restricted was the backscatter). I made a post months ago predicting this backscatter garbage would become commonplace.

- Noobtubes. They are cheap, but the biggest issue with them is the ammo box, you shouldn't be able to get explosives back and you definitely shouldn't be able to have a noobtube and an ammo box when it refills explosives. Scouts and Engineers shouldn't get noobtubes as secondaries.

- Claymores and Stun Mines. Scouts should only get 1, not 2.

- OTR scanner. It should have a 2-3 second lock-on or you have to hit the player with a bullet for it to detect an enemy. Or even leave it the same and have the OTR scanner greatly affect the gun's performance, like very noticeably increasing recoil.

- Data Hacking. Only an engineer with a field computer should be able to hack.

The problem with this game is that every class is too powerful and can do too much. Scouts with stun mines/clays and noobtubes, and they can hack. Engineers with sixth sense, sensors, noobtubes, fast data hacking and objective capturing. Rifleman seeing through walls with noobtubes, frags, ammo boxes, and can stun and hack. Heck, a sniper scout is just basically a rifleman with claymores because sniper rifles in this game are just semi-auto assault rifles. A game like this should make a player specialize much more. If you want to data hack, that's fine, but you suck at everything else. If you want a noobtube, fine, you can't refill it and your gun performs noticeably worse. Stuff like that needs to be done. The equipment isn't overpowered in itself, it's the spamming of it that is the problem. Even the backscatter could be OK if an EMP permanently disabled it plus it would scan every 2-3 seconds so you aren't literally seeing the enemies moving around in real time. I never got why an EMP only lasts like 10 seconds.

theonlytime
02-17-2013, 09:00 PM
I agree with Phoenix. It reminded me also of something that I should've mentioned during the Crysis 3 MP beta, the ability to use nanovision and see cloaked enemies. On-topic, I never reached level 44 but I would've reached it and use the Backscatter. It is basically a magnetics scope, giving the Rifleman the ability to see through walls and from a limited range Engineers, enemy Riflemen, and even cloaked Scouts. I think such attachment should have limitations I'll let the community continue from there.

shobhit7777777
02-18-2013, 01:20 PM
That is precisely the issue though, Shob. The new set of tactics has replaced the old set not added to them. How well individuals and teams are using the Tech isn't really central to the argument. It is what is not happening anymore that we need to discuss. My theme isn't about the merits of Future Soldier and the tech it uses; it is what no longer happens.


Fair point AI....can't argue with that.

But I do hope that you also understand my POV. Taking away intel from GRFS will turn it into a bog standard TPS....an experience replicated by many. I say this because for it to rise higher...it needs a solid redesign in terms of the major systems - shooting,health, cover, intel. Which is not going to happen. The most our feedback will achieve is the role of tech and its impact. Removal of it will lead to a game which is a solid TPS ...but still very bland.

Intel, tech and coordination bring the spice to the recipe........I do not disagree that it needs tweaking...but removing that completely...I don't think that it would make for a very different/fresh experience....UNLESS you add a lot of OGR to it.

I'd like to choose the lesser of two "evils".

I'm open to changes as long as they provide a smart, engaging and fresh experience.

A few suggestions of mine..which I feel would improve the overall tactical experience

- Red diamonds in favour of red silhouettes
- Leaning and peaking
- No god view
- OTR works momentarily....intel lasts as long as you have the enemy in your sights...red diamonds only
- Cam only gives level 1 intel ( no real time position marker - just a diamond on your map)
- No sensor balls - have a seismic sensor which gives level 1 intel in a large radius...prone to giving ghost/false readings
- Mines - clay or stun can either be command detonated or have a tripwire attached - no effing laser beams...at most have an upgrade which gives it thermal sensing activator....allow friendly fire
- No health regeneration...not without severe penalties like reduced running speed, inability to sprint, poor accuracy
- Actual camo options...who the **** wears white on blue cargos ?
and most importantly:

- Maps designed around natural terrain features and topography with abundant vegetation.....justifying the camo choices.

PREDITOR OPS
02-19-2013, 03:33 AM
I just got to vent right now. Why do i constantly here that avoiding claymores and stun mines takes skill. Its kind of like a parent defending their unruly child. It takes no skill to set a claymore or stun mine lol. Just because you find a good corner to set a claymore doesn't mean you have skill. I think its pretty obvious how to set claymores/stun mines since every sniper knows how to set them. I ran into snipers with bad shots, I ran into people who can't shoot a lmg or assault rifle and I have seen people who can't shoot at alll. But I never saw anybody who did not know how to set a claymore or stun mine. Oh it takes skill to avoid them lol is the worst argument I ever heard. The only thing they effectively do is slow the enemy down. Lets think what else slows enemies down um actually shooting and killing them when they are running to the objective, but no Instead of doing your job and shooting them while they charge at the objective you let a device do it for you and then say that it takes skill to avoid a mine when you should have been doing the job yourself. But hey if you give a man a gun in a fist fight the gunner is going to say it takes skill to aim and shoot at point blank range and it takes skill on his part to dodge the bullet right lol.

ln_l3loolvl
02-19-2013, 03:59 AM
I just got to vent right now. Why do i constantly here that avoiding claymores and stun mines takes skill. Its kind of like a parent defending their unruly child. It takes no skill to set a claymore or stun mine lol. Just because you find a good corner to set a claymore doesn't mean you have skill. I think its pretty obvious how to set claymores/stun mines since every sniper knows how to set them. I ran into snipers with bad shots, I ran into people who can't shoot a lmg or assault rifle and I have seen people who can't shoot at alll. But I never saw anybody who did not know how to set a claymore or stun mine. Oh it takes skill to avoid them lol is the worst argument I ever heard. The only thing they effectively do is slow the enemy down. Lets think what else slows enemies down um actually shooting and killing them when they are running to the objective, but no Instead of doing your job and shooting them while they charge at the objective you let a device do it for you and then say that it takes skill to avoid a mine when you should have been doing the job yourself. But hey if you give a man a gun in a fist fight the gunner is going to say it takes skill to aim and shoot at point blank range and it takes skill on his part to dodge the bullet right lol.

Setting and avoiding are two different things. It's not my fault people run around without checking their corners. In all of my play time I rarely get hit by Claymore or Stun Mines when checking corners properly but I can see how it would anger people who like to charge around like they're actually going to do something. It takes intelligence to know most common places where mines are placed then taking proper measures to destroy, avoid or call out. It does sound like someone has been mined too many times in their time on GRFS.

And to add to the argument, I wouldn't mind if any of these things were taken out, the only thing that would do is cause all the Scouts to switch to Rifleman.

PREDITOR OPS
02-19-2013, 05:01 AM
Setting and avoiding are two different things. It's not my fault people run around without checking their corners. In all of my play time I rarely get hit by Claymore or Stun Mines when checking corners properly but I can see how it would anger people who like to charge around like they're actually going to do something. It takes intelligence to know most common places where mines are placed then taking proper measures to destroy, avoid or call out. It does sound like someone has been mined too many times in their time on GRFS.

And to add to the argument, I wouldn't mind if any of these things were taken out, the only thing that would do is cause all the Scouts to switch to Rifleman.
I'm a light machine gunner and i'm rarely in a rush so i rarely get hit by them. I spend most of my time reviving randoms that get hit by them. Then moving in on the kill I have to stop because a scout ran behind his claymore/stun mine smh. Or they use it to cover their flanks instead of someone watching the flank like a pro. scouts lay down mines all over the place lol. Then Instead of admitting to using a cheap equipment the people using them say '' it takes skill and team work to avoid and destroy them'' what about the skill and team work it takes to properly cover your flank. To get the kill that saved the team from a devastating flank when your team needed it. No use a piece of equipment that does the job for you by either killing them, stunning them, or making a loud noise that reveals to the other team that you are there so basically doing it's job even though it was destroyed. I can deal with the backscatterter i don't like the backscatter but i can deal with it because in this game you have to learn how to kill while being detected anyways. At least people using backscatter still have to aim, shoot, and kill.

Phoenixmgs
02-19-2013, 06:12 AM
I can deal with the backscatterter i don't like the backscatter but i can deal with it because in this game you have to learn how to kill while being detected anyways. At least people using backscatter still have to aim, shoot, and kill.

Have you actually played against good players that exploit the **** out of the backscatter? The backscatter is so ****ing broken.

shobhit7777777
02-19-2013, 06:53 AM
I just got to vent right now. Why do i constantly here that avoiding claymores and stun mines takes skill. Its kind of like a parent defending their unruly child. It takes no skill to set a claymore or stun mine lol. Just because you find a good corner to set a claymore doesn't mean you have skill. I think its pretty obvious how to set claymores/stun mines since every sniper knows how to set them. I ran into snipers with bad shots, I ran into people who can't shoot a lmg or assault rifle and I have seen people who can't shoot at alll. But I never saw anybody who did not know how to set a claymore or stun mine. Oh it takes skill to avoid them lol is the worst argument I ever heard. The only thing they effectively do is slow the enemy down. Lets think what else slows enemies down um actually shooting and killing them when they are running to the objective, but no Instead of doing your job and shooting them while they charge at the objective you let a device do it for you and then say that it takes skill to avoid a mine when you should have been doing the job yourself. But hey if you give a man a gun in a fist fight the gunner is going to say it takes skill to aim and shoot at point blank range and it takes skill on his part to dodge the bullet right lol.


I'm a light machine gunner and i'm rarely in a rush so i rarely get hit by them. I spend most of my time reviving randoms that get hit by them. Then moving in on the kill I have to stop because a scout ran behind his claymore/stun mine smh. Or they use it to cover their flanks instead of someone watching the flank like a pro. scouts lay down mines all over the place lol. Then Instead of admitting to using a cheap equipment the people using them say '' it takes skill and team work to avoid and destroy them'' what about the skill and team work it takes to properly cover your flank. To get the kill that saved the team from a devastating flank when your team needed it. No use a piece of equipment that does the job for you by either killing them, stunning them, or making a loud noise that reveals to the other team that you are there so basically doing it's job even though it was destroyed. I can deal with the backscatterter i don't like the backscatter but i can deal with it because in this game you have to learn how to kill while being detected anyways. At least people using backscatter still have to aim, shoot, and kill.


Oh man...the urge to clay you has just gone sky high. You on the PS3? If so I hope to run into you....you have a mic right?

ln_l3loolvl
02-19-2013, 07:06 AM
I'm a light machine gunner and i'm rarely in a rush so i rarely get hit by them. I spend most of my time reviving randoms that get hit by them. Then moving in on the kill I have to stop because a scout ran behind his claymore/stun mine smh. Or they use it to cover their flanks instead of someone watching the flank like a pro. scouts lay down mines all over the place lol. Then Instead of admitting to using a cheap equipment the people using them say '' it takes skill and team work to avoid and destroy them'' what about the skill and team work it takes to properly cover your flank. To get the kill that saved the team from a devastating flank when your team needed it. No use a piece of equipment that does the job for you by either killing them, stunning them, or making a loud noise that reveals to the other team that you are there so basically doing it's job even though it was destroyed. I can deal with the backscatterter i don't like the backscatter but i can deal with it because in this game you have to learn how to kill while being detected anyways. At least people using backscatter still have to aim, shoot, and kill.

Of course a Rifleman is complaining about Mines. They're the ones who are usually running around too, recklessly. You should stop playing with randoms and get a squad. Maybe then you can have them deal with your Mine problem.
Equipment is far from perfect but there is a counter to basically everything besides the Backscatter. You should carry EMP's, simple as that or get a teammate/s who carries EMP's.
I definitely wouldn't mind if they did something drastic to equipment next game because I can still shoot and am accurate to boot.

PREDITOR OPS
02-19-2013, 03:03 PM
Of course a Rifleman is complaining about Mines. They're the ones who are usually running around too, recklessly. You should stop playing with randoms and get a squad. Maybe then you can have them deal with your Mine problem.
Equipment is far from perfect but there is a counter to basically everything besides the Backscatter. You should carry EMP's, simple as that or get a teammate/s who carries EMP's.
I definitely wouldn't mind if they did something drastic to equipment next game because I can still shoot and am accurate to boot. I hate rolling with my squad because we just end up beating down on people I'm sure you played those matches where you squad is taking every objective and you check the score board just to see if the other team quite yet. Then with my squad I can't even use my baby and I use scout and see how many melee kills i can get which is only fun for a couple of minutes. I prefer joining a group full of randoms coaching them through GRFS tactics and beating a squads. That way I can use my best weapon and go as hard as possible.


Have you actually played against good players that exploit the **** out of the backscatter? The backscatter is so ****ing broken. I have I will admit
it is extremely annoying and the backscatter is broken but I still end up killing them when they come from behind the corner so I really don't get mad about it. but backscatter is broken and should be removed.

Oh man...the urge to clay you has just gone sky high. You on the PS3? If so I hope to run into you....you have a mic right?lol I wish i was on ps3 i'm tired of going against the same people on xbox. I wish the competitve players were still on xbox running around with a pistol gets boring really quickly.

shobhit7777777
02-19-2013, 06:58 PM
lol I wish i was on ps3 i'm tired of going against the same people on xbox. I wish the competitve players were still on xbox running around with a pistol gets boring really quickly.

I wouldn't mind playing with you...but I was talking more about blowing you to kingdome come or molesting your stunned character with clays and stun mines :)...just to hear you rage :D

PREDITOR OPS
02-20-2013, 02:19 AM
I wouldn't mind playing with you...but I was talking more about blowing you to kingdome come or molesting your stunned character with clays and stun mines :)...just to hear you rage :D

lol knowing that you use stun mines I would probably take my time moving through out the level and killing everything in sight and since you said that I would probably would spend most my time trolling you.

Phoenixmgs
02-20-2013, 04:02 AM
lol knowing that you use stun mines I would probably take my time moving through out the level and killing everything in sight and since you said that I would probably would spend most my time trolling you.

Why not just use the POS backscatter, it sees stun mines too.

PREDITOR OPS
02-20-2013, 08:40 PM
Why not just use the POS backscatter, it sees stun mines too. Simple I think the backscatter is a attachment for the weak. I perfer making it hard on myself when i'm not in a competitive match like decreasing the accuracy, range, and damage on my guns or using scout with nothing but a bolt action rifle, no otr scanner, a med pack, smoke and without hacking. You know to see how good you really are when you are forced to use severely limited weapons and equipment. It makes for an enjoyable game you actually start thinking about how you can still be effective with really bad weapons.

Phoenixmgs
02-21-2013, 01:29 AM
Simple I think the backscatter is a attachment for the weak. I perfer making it hard on myself when i'm not in a competitive match like decreasing the accuracy, range, and damage on my guns or using scout with nothing but a bolt action rifle, no otr scanner, a med pack, smoke and without hacking. You know to see how good you really are when you are forced to use severely limited weapons and equipment. It makes for an enjoyable game you actually start thinking about how you can still be effective with really bad weapons.

It is for scrubs. The problem is the thing is so broken that you a good player uses it, it's the equivalent to a hack. I'm talking about how the game is played on a competitive level in squad matches, not facing randoms. The rifleman class is so overpowered.

PREDITOR OPS
02-21-2013, 03:54 AM
It is for scrubs. The problem is the thing is so broken that you a good player uses it, it's the equivalent to a hack. I'm talking about how the game is played on a competitive level in squad matches, not facing randoms. The rifleman class is so overpowered. well i don't play squad matches anymore. as soon as I saw teams full of people noob tubing and setting stun mines I went to gamebattles. A funny story a team beat my squad and was talking mad garbage when we challenged them to make a gamebattles account and face us without their precious intel and equipment that does the job for them it was a 500 point win. They had obvious holes in the perimeters they set and they didn't cover their flanks effectively. But if you go against a team that relies on equipment to do their jobs what else should you expect right. Good players understand that limiting the equipment limits what one person can do which forces you to use team work, but some will argue that the equipment is need. If you do squad matches it's just a bunch of public all stars using equipment to help them fight. You see how good a team really is when you take away all their crap, give them just a gun and tell them to get the job done.

PublicVermin
02-21-2013, 01:14 PM
The rifleman class is so overpowered.

Really? LOL. No class is OP, it's like a game of Rock Paper Scissors. One has an advantage that another can trump.

Phoenixmgs
02-21-2013, 09:12 PM
Really? LOL. No class is OP, it's like a game of Rock Paper Scissors. One has an advantage that another can trump.

Have you played the game recently on a competitive level? All the game is now are rifleman backscattering, fragging, and noobtubing, then refilling with the ammo box to do it again. There's no way to trump that.

JustHatched
02-21-2013, 11:27 PM
Have you played the game recently on a competitive level? All the game is now are rifleman backscattering, fragging, and noobtubing, then refilling with the ammo box to do it again. There's no way to trump that.

Must depend on the mode, I see scouts mostly used in siege games (many think they are part of some elite sniper squad). That said most seem to have completed the campaign and use a launcher for a sidearm.

Given the right circumstances I will happily use a backscatter, frag and tube, reload and do it again, and again, perhaps once more just to be sure. I really don't see the issue, I get fraged and I frag, emp's can deal with a scatter long enough to mess up the shooter so you can get the kill.

Phoenixmgs
02-22-2013, 01:48 AM
Must depend on the mode, I see scouts mostly used in siege games (many think they are part of some elite sniper squad). That said most seem to have completed the campaign and use a launcher for a sidearm.

Given the right circumstances I will happily use a backscatter, frag and tube, reload and do it again, and again, perhaps once more just to be sure. I really don't see the issue, I get fraged and I frag, emp's can deal with a scatter long enough to mess up the shooter so you can get the kill.

The last time I played Siege, there were backscatters there too.

The only counter to the backscatter is to use the backscatter yourself, which tells you said thing is broken and unbalanced. EMPs are meant to take out equipment, not to EMP people. There's no real way to tell where a backscatter player is, but he can see you. If the backscatter at least made like scanning noise, you could then hear it, then try EMPing. Even with a successful EMP, it only last for 10 seconds or so, and the player is still a rifleman with the best gun in the game, frags, and a noobtube. Even if you do detect them with a sensor then throw an EMP, you'd then lose the detection because the EMP with take out the friendly sensor. And, Jammers don't work against the backscatter either. The other classes can't trump a rifleman; scouts have claymores and stun mines, which the backscatter can see, and engineers have sensors (that can be easily jammed or destroyed) but they only last a few seconds vs the backscatter, which works all match. The best you can do is put you and a rifleman on even footing (you both see each other), and even then it's not really that even given the frags and noobtube. The rifleman can have a backscatter, frags, noobtube, ammo box, and still have the stun gun to hack.

PublicVermin
02-22-2013, 03:43 PM
Have you played the game recently on a competitive level? All the game is now are rifleman backscattering, fragging, and noobtubing, then refilling with the ammo box to do it again. There's no way to trump that.

I hit a couple backscatter-ers last night.... EMP them, and they have apaper towel tube to look through, go one step further and chain hack their team for their use ofcrap equipment. The only thing i can agree with you on is the toobs. All last night EVERY ****ING MATCH was a toob fest. I guess the devs stopped "monitoring gamne play" other wise they'd see the utter bull **** going on and delete the ****ing things.... *picks up ball and hands to devs* i believe you dropped this awhile ago, guys...

Phoenixmgs
02-22-2013, 08:56 PM
I hit a couple backscatter-ers last night.... EMP them, and they have apaper towel tube to look through, go one step further and chain hack their team for their use ofcrap equipment. The only thing i can agree with you on is the toobs. All last night EVERY ****ING MATCH was a toob fest. I guess the devs stopped "monitoring gamne play" other wise they'd see the utter bull **** going on and delete the ****ing things.... *picks up ball and hands to devs* i believe you dropped this awhile ago, guys...

You can't chain hack good teams. And, the EMP only lasts about 10 seconds, the backscatter lasts all match. It's not like you know exactly where the backscatter player is either either to EMP them. The problem with noobtubes is the ammo box, not the noobtubes (the secondary noobtubes are asinine). I play Warfighter where the class with noobtubes gets 2 shots and 2 frags, and I get noobtubed and fragged less in that game.

Kodie Collings
03-04-2013, 12:05 PM
They're fine to me. Yes they are powerful but people just need to be more careful and check before running around corners.
The Grenade launchers are annoying but they only get 1 shot and if it's inaccurate it just knocks you off your feet

Charity Diary
03-04-2013, 03:27 PM
How I feel:

Frag launchers should be similar to the UCAV grenades in that they don't knock you down, but they should do the same damage as the standard frag grenade. This would encourage players to actually aim with them and place their shots well, as right now they're just an anti-cover spam tool.

Stun mines and claymores should either not be in the game, or they should be a lot easier to spot. With only 2 minutes to capture an objective, I don't have time to check every corner, every staircase, and every blade of grass for a semi-invisible claymore. Also, walking around a corner and hearing that trademark "BOOM" while I die, it just ticks me off knowing all that person did was hit LB and just wait. Meanwhile, I actually work for my kills and hacks, outmaneuvering and outgunning my enemies. One person should not be able to guard three directions with the use of claymores, without even trying.

Solution:
Either remove the claymores and stun mines, or just replace them with a C4 (and a sleep gas variant of it) that you can stick to walls. Give the player only ONE of either of these. Make it a rather large remote-detonated device that has a small blinking light on it, so that the only way you don't spot it is if you just aren't paying attention. This would allow the user to guard an area with the explosive, while removing the cheapness of the claymore's set-and-forget nature. Also, the enemy would actually have a chance of defending against it.