PDA

View Full Version : Michael Mann vs Michael Bay: Why Blacklist Needs More of the Former



shobhit7777777
02-06-2013, 03:28 PM
Preview vids are out...a lot of gameplay footage...and one thing is pretty clear - Cinematic influence. From the controversial PERCAP to the overall feeling and dialogue, everything seems very Hollywoodish.

While discussing Sam's tactics (or lack of them) with Freedoms, we came upon the Mann vs Bay argument as a way to express how we feel about the current narrative and which Hollywood influence (if any) should the game be affected by

I'll use two scenes each from their movies to illustrate why Mann wins

Michael Mann - Heat (Bank Heist)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpaFTFwuUHc


Michael Bat - Bad Boys II (Car Chase and Shootout)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feToEzTjnyE




In the Heat shootout....everything is stark and hyper realistic. No slow motion shots, no fancy driving or shooting just plain old fire and maneuver tactics and extremely loud gunfire. The actors handle their weapons realistically, the weapons actually sound like lethal deathmachines, each shot echoes and hangs....each bullet impact is felt. There are no quick cuts and fancy background score.
The camera angles are clean and precise and the action is presented in a clean cut and coherent manner.
The tone is - Realism and Authenticity

The action goes hand in hand with the kind of serious story the movie is trying to tell. It is reflective of the narrative. The entire film uses actual surveillance and combat techniques and this makes the movie that much better in setting the overall mood...the idea of those guys being very well trained and efficient robbers is immediately bought by the audience within moments.




In the second shootout by Bay we have the usual Bayisms of cool camera angles, quirky dialogue, tacticool weapons, more quirky dialogue, 2 guys vs an army, flashy visuals and SFX, Cars flying around and the heroes being super-badass...shooting through 360 car flips with one hand in full auto.

It suits Bad Boys.....it is a non-serious, buddy cop comedy with high octane action set pieces. Nothing wrong with it...I enjoyed it. But the tone it conveyed was not one of seriousness let alone realism or authenticity. Not IMO.


The point is that SCB is tackling a serious subject matter and apparently trying to be authentic but from what we've seen.....IDK....everything feels off key. The narrative and gameplay don't support the premise

From things like implausible character choices to unbelievable stuff like explosions not affecting Sam at close range and enemy Snipers equipped with a big bright red ****ing laser beaming out of their optic nerves
The character dialogues from what little is heard is also entirely unconvincing and then the whole "Sam shoots HVT accidently" fiasco.....it just doesn't fit in


The gameplay and narrative are out of sync with the overall premise and tone.....this is very jarring and sadenning since I can safely say that the believable espionage centric world of the legacy games (rooted in realism) are universally appreciated here.


Dear UbiTor....please, please, please keep the above in mind.

Rea1SamF1sher
02-06-2013, 03:45 PM
I said from the beginning that what they do doesn't seem to fit at all. Yes I know, I don't know the whole story.
The Narrative plays against the gameplay and vice versa. It doesn't make any sense to take a story directly from the headlines, to give the feeling that they going for realism and authenticity but turn the whole story around and making it with Hollywood Realism. It's like when Michael Bay would be sent to make his own version of "Inception". It won't work.

Everyone here came up with alternatives when we saw all these ridicolous sequences. It's very hard to believe that the Toronto team couldn't come with these ideas too.

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
02-06-2013, 03:59 PM
The reason Heat is so bad *** is because they had Andy McNabb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_McNab) do all the planning on how things would actually happen.

Regardless of what Footman or anyone says, I guarantee you that they didn't do something similar for Blacklist.

If they did, we would never have seen Jadid shoot himself or any of the other nonsense we've seen so far.

coltcat
02-06-2013, 04:09 PM
Just want to say, screw Michael Bay.
Bay and Mann wasn't even in the same level to start with.
Mann might lost his unique charms in his movies recently.
but Bay, he never has any. with his best work The Rock still lacks the depth that can be compare to Mann's not-so-well works such as Ali or Miami Vice movie.

RaulO4
02-06-2013, 04:22 PM
......Heat, ....who wants to play payday with me???

on topic agree every line Sam have said
every news report on the story
and every trailer that we saw
was simply the bad even on Michael Bay level status...no really at this point i rather have Michael Bay Writing then SCB...that how bad i think it is

The_5_Freedoms
02-06-2013, 04:59 PM
snip
Completely 100% agree.

noodlenerd
02-06-2013, 06:41 PM
I agree. He made the ultimate badass, Vincent (Collateral), a convincing character. Actually, if I were to compare Sam's combat prowess to any movie character it would be Vincent. Quick, deadly, efficient, yet still only human.


The more I think about it, the more I wish Mann would do the SC movie.

Maher21
02-06-2013, 08:00 PM
Let me add my voice that I completely agree with shobhit on this. Completely!

TheRealGunnut19
02-06-2013, 08:06 PM
I agree. He made the ultimate badass, Vincent (Collateral), a convincing character. Actually, if I were to compare Sam's combat prowess to any movie character it would be Vincent. Quick, deadly, efficient, yet still only human.


The more I think about it, the more I wish Mann would do the SC movie.

That movie was fantastic.

Jazz117Volkov
02-07-2013, 03:08 AM
@ Shobhit
Yeah, Mann's stuff is a lot more in keeping with Splinter Cell heritage.
A return to the authentic action and deliberate style would be a major bonus for the series, IMO.

Bay does popcorn flicks... that's his calling.
Splinter Cell, or any Tom Clancy franchise for that matter, should not be treated as "popcorn materiel"
Conviction, Futures Soldier, Vegas, and unfortunately, by the looks of it, Blacklist, are all popcorn flicks.

SolidSage
02-07-2013, 04:08 AM
I have to agree that I prefer Mann movies over Bay's. (Bad Boys was fun tho). It's theater vs the dirt and grime of the real.
I don't know that Conviction was full on Bay but I guess it was closer to Bay than Mann, for the SP campaign at least. To be fair, a shoot out the quality of the one in Heat is rarely achieved. When it is, it's appreciated for a long time.

Talking of who should do the movie, yeah Mann would be great but I like David Ayer a lot lately.

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
02-07-2013, 04:57 AM
Conviction was a total Michael bay movie.

"Point the gun at the right people"

"OOohhh...I will"

LOL

They even had the villain explaining his plan to the hero at the end, giving him juuuUUUuuust enough time to escape and turn the tables.

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
02-07-2013, 05:00 AM
el double..

shobhit7777777
02-07-2013, 08:31 AM
What irked me the most is that Conviction and SCB could've been prime Mann material....especially Conviction. The overall gameplay was based on the whole "Ex Elite Operative" fantasy present in Mann's films showcasing lethal shooting and CQC skills.

In many ways Hitman Absolution is very close to Mann's style in terms of some of the mechanics and gameplay loops.

RaulO4
02-07-2013, 11:38 AM
shadow, look i hate to say it but i would rather have a Michael Bay writing than what conviction had

shobhit7777777
02-07-2013, 04:51 PM
shadow, look i hate to say it but i would rather have a Michael Bay writing than what conviction had

hahahah! There is a point there.

sameer_monier
02-08-2013, 02:18 AM
Michael Mann did some awesome movies, especially Collateral to me, I would love him to be influence.

Totally agree with Shobhit on this one.

SolidSage
02-09-2013, 11:24 AM
I can understand asking for more from the scripts and writing, I can see a good justification in this franchise for elevating the budget/time/importance, as it relates to writing and developing a story around game play design and restrictions.
Why not take Splinter Cell to the next level, it is a Legendary series with great heritage? The Tom Clancy related games have always had a certain integrity and specialness to them.

That said, I personally have never found the Splinter Cell games to be that special in regards to story. The pacing of the game and the realistic elements they dealt with, the maturer theme and vision of the source material are what was special for me. The stories were a great part of that but they didn't seem to be as lofty works of creativity to me as they are for some of you. I don't mean they weren't good. I just don't see such a stark difference in comparison to what we got in C and what we appear to have in B.

Things have been amped up and rejuvenated a bit. The stories in Rainbow stopped being interesting after a while, it becomes just another mission. I think I liked Archer & Kestrel's because it was simple. Get these EMP's, and a double cross twist. No frills, just the job and some developing problems for the guys to deal with. No super big arc of secrecy and intrigue, no personal back stories of any magnitude.. A&K's characters were told through their actions and words, it was plenty.

So Blacklist's deal so far seems like a good yarn for a Spec Ops game to me. It's about sneaking by or incapacitating obstructions to the mission objective. Why there is a mission can really be a million different ideas but they ALL have to facilitate a guy in a cool suit sneaking around places and probably killing someone.
What back story related to that character is supposed to get told? How he likes to go golfing on a Sunday morning with his super good buddy Lambert whose not dead but instead has a happy home and a Porsche Boxer and likes freshly ground coffee with his breakfast before he reads his message traffic? How Sarah is graduating from college and going to marry a Pediatrician?
I mean, some of us seem to be tired of Sam having old buddies already, like he wouldn't have quite a few, especially since he's still working for the same parent company as a lot of them probably are, directly or indirectly.
It would be easier and probably better to just say Sam's private life is good and happy and it's all hunky dory at home. Then it's just back to "this guy knows something and these guys want to extract it. You have to save him. Oh you failed, now you need to get those guys and find out what they do know, then kill them. Okay that's done but guess what, something else is happening and it's all linked to something bigger so you need to go do some more stuff".
It's bread trails for game levels. I'm fine with it.

But then they get junk for putting in too many cut scenes that are actually a good way to tell MORE story? :D I mean if it's just cos you like giving them shiz and never letting them win then cool, that sounds like fun but if these are legit issues there has to be some reason, some understanding of the confines of 'what' they are developing. No?

I dunno, I'm ranting now I guess but it just seems like the stories are as good as stories in other games. The problem with these ones is that they make changes to a character and pantheon that has a lot of history and fans don't like some of the changes, they want specific ones or no change at all. And the problem with no change is that you end up telling the same story again and again. No progression, no excitement.

I just need good mission motivation and occurrences that feed the sense of importance and urgency that seems to lend weight to the experience, gives it heft when it's to 'prevent' something. I don't need the girlfriends and daughters and really good buddies parts so much TBH.

I mean, Grim's mad at Sam for being on her turf? My Sam is "get over yourself, I've got work to do that's way more important than your... 'feelings'". Problem dealt with.

sameer_monier
03-09-2013, 10:41 PM
yo Shob, it seems Watch Dogs team have a similar feeling to yours


What are the main pillars of WATCH_DOGS?Answered by: Jonathan Morin, Creative Director

Context is everything so it was natural to have our first pillar focusing on this aspect. We wanted to make sure the player would have a rich and privileged amount of interaction with the game world, and to do so, vigilantism was the perfect direction for us. Having a man with a personal mission who monitors an entire city offers a great deal of drama in every aspect of the game and that’s what we were looking for.

Then, we wanted to make sure our game would have a very serious tone. Tapping into every people’s lives is a serious thing. That is especially true in the context of a modern vigilante hero. I have two mantras I use all the time with every Director in the team to make sure we deliver our serious tone. The first one is “Do you feel the gravity of this situation when you play it?” The second one is “Make it more Michael Mann and less MichaelBay.” These kind of statements always help reminds ourselves who we are and what we are aspiring to achieve.

Hyper-connectivity is obviously a core subject in our game. It is everywhere, from the innovative tool you use in the game to our entire online experience. The entire game structure is based on the idea that everyone is watching whether it’s in single player, multiplayer or everything in between. It is within the game and also outside of it…

Delivering a serious vigilante experience when you can control everything that is connected around you is definitely a challenge. This leads us to our last pillar. In order for all of this to work, we needed unprecedented dynamism within our city simulation. Every system talks to each other in the game. It is this set of systems that creates the magic. For example, everything that happens in our open world demo is emergent. If the player had focused on someone other than the woman at the magazine stand, everything would have been very different. This is how organic WATCH_DOGS is.

In the end all of these pillars have been carefully chosen in order to make sure we would deliver a relevant open world game with an unprecedented level of interactivity. After all, that’s what games are all about.



There are alot more questions and answers about Watch Dogs [ul=http://electronictheatre.co.uk/pc/pc-news/33244/watch_dogs-qa-revealed]Here[/url]

Rea1SamF1sher
03-10-2013, 03:28 AM
I like to hear that from Watch Dogs.
Especially the last two sentences are nice to hear from a developer in this generation.
I am pretty sure i will be getting Watch Dogs, it looks great and it seems to deliver what Sandbox games should deliver: Freedom.
Well I might be to fast to judge it, but it looks really good to me.

shobhit7777777
03-15-2013, 08:09 PM
yo Shob, it seems Watch Dogs team have a similar feeling to yours





There are alot more questions and answers about Watch Dogs [ul=http://electronictheatre.co.uk/pc/pc-news/33244/watch_dogs-qa-revealed]Here[/url]


I am extremely pleased!

Cannot wait :D

KenTWOu
07-06-2014, 08:49 PM
I think this video is relevant here: Michael Bay - What is Bayhem?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2THVvshvq0Q

SanityAgathion
07-07-2014, 11:11 AM
Yes, thanks for posting it, good video. I thought of posting it too somewhere around here but you did it already :)

(Did you just necrophyli-ed thread from 16 months ago? O.o )

Dome500
07-07-2014, 05:57 PM
@ Shobhit
Yeah, Mann's stuff is a lot more in keeping with Splinter Cell heritage.
A return to the authentic action and deliberate style would be a major bonus for the series, IMO.

Bay does popcorn flicks... that's his calling.
Splinter Cell, or any Tom Clancy franchise for that matter, should not be treated as "popcorn materiel"
Conviction, Futures Soldier, Vegas, and unfortunately, by the looks of it, Blacklist, are all popcorn flicks.

Can't disagree there.
The presentation definitely lacks authenticity in parts.


But then they get junk for putting in too many cut scenes that are actually a good way to tell MORE story? I mean if it's just cos you like giving them shiz and never letting them win then cool, that sounds like fun but if these are legit issues there has to be some reason, some understanding of the confines of 'what' they are developing. No?

Which is completely wrong.

Chaos Theory had not one cutscene during a mission and it told the story very good for me through simple dialogue while you were in control of the player.
This is not about the story in this case, it is about the presentation, the way everything is presented. You are taking player control away from the player and lead him to a specific point without him having control over it while showing you a short and uninteresting mostly mission-related dialogue and scene.
The more cutscenes the more I feel that control is taken away from me, the more the game becomes like a movie and the course is pre-set.

This is no story-telling ,especially since there is not much story told in those cutscenes. Story can be told through cutscenes in between missions not during them, story can be told by dialogue between you an your team and listening to the radio-conversations of the enemy, listening to enemy conversations right next to you, interrogations, hell even by reading emails on hacked computers. The more the actual context involves you, the more you are in control the more the story drags you with it. As soon as cutscenes pop up I'm going to "movie mode". It does not involve you, does not animate you to listen or watch, it does just tell the story for you without being interactive. And it breaks the flow of an active mission.

I do not know if I understood you right there Sage because somehow I your sentence seems strange to me, since you are normally not for cutscenes in missions as far as I know. All I am saying is in this particular case, if I say I want less custscenes, then it is because I think a story can be delivered in other, better ways in a game like SC.

KenTWOu
07-07-2014, 07:49 PM
(Did you just necrophyli-ed thread from 16 months ago? O.o )
Yeah, resent Watch Dogs and Transformers releases made this thread releveant again :)