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RinoTheBouncer
01-28-2013, 04:33 PM
Which one are you? which one do you agree with? why?
It's for fun so let's see how many say: "Nothing is true, Everything is permitted" and who says "May the Father of Understanding guide us"?

EllisEverTellYa
01-28-2013, 04:49 PM
I'm a Templar, I agree with their ideals and goals!
"We're cruel and desperate creatures, set in our conquering ways. The Saxons and the Franks. The Ottomans and Safavids...I could go on for hours. The whole of human history is but a series of conflicts and subjugations. A desire for more, and more, and more." Haytham
May the father of understanding guids us! ;)

Dejan507
01-28-2013, 05:23 PM
Templars, definitely, not only do I agree with their ideals, but if I had to choose in real life I would choose Templars without doubt.

Sturnz0r
01-28-2013, 05:52 PM
they have the moneys -Hickey

don't fault washington too much though. Any commander would want to push the natives away. colonists didn't feel to safe with them in RL

Assassin_M
01-28-2013, 07:31 PM
don't fault washington too much though. Any commander would want to push the natives away. colonists didn't feel to safe with them in RL
That`s stupid. It was the Natives` land...You`re excusing that ?? You`v no respect from me.

On-topic: I`d be a Templar. Their Ideals are just far more convincing. They actually work for the better of Mankind. Order, Purpose and Direction.They`re realistic and that`s something worth fighting for. Realism, Cynical as it may be. Only con is that some Templars may go wacky with the concept that they`re better than everyone else and raise themselves above showing that Templars too can be weak.

The one who convinced me is Haytham. You can be a Templar AND share Assassin Ideals and Principles.

lothario-da-be
01-28-2013, 07:34 PM
I "like" the assassin's more because their ideology is more heroic.But the Templars fight for what is the best for humanity. If that makes any sense..
I chose Templar.

kuled2012
01-28-2013, 07:46 PM
I always liken the New world order of the Templars to 'the truth' video of AC2, in that video humanity is enslaved and no one can stop TWCB, no liberty, no purpose for life other than to serve. Plus the world would be 'owned' by the grand master' and we have seen many personalities of a Templar grand master, the borgias for instance, they were only in it for power (Cesare the most) but then you have characters like Haytham who bring sense to their goals...I don't know, their goal makes sense and sounds good but if a 'Cesare' was to be at the helm of it all I don't think it would be good for the world.

D.I.D.
01-28-2013, 07:51 PM
This just goes to show you how messed up the grey area thing has become.

In the fiction, the latter side approved of and sponsored slavery, Nazism etc, and in the present day it's seeking to secretly infect people with mind control technology! I can see why it might be interesting to add a little "sympathy for the devil", but it's gone a bit too far.

Assassin_M
01-28-2013, 07:57 PM
This just goes to show you how messed up the grey area thing has become.

In the fiction, the latter side approved of and sponsored slavery, Nazism etc, and in the present day it's seeking to secretly infect people with mind control technology! I can see why it might be interesting to add a little "sympathy for the devil", but it's gone a bit too far.
You mad so many people are choosing the Templars, bro ?

D.I.D.
01-28-2013, 08:02 PM
You mad so many people are choosing the Templars, bro ?

Not mad :) I just think they're forgetting the way the story has been set up.

Obviously both sides are shady, but the writers made the Templars unmistakably evil and then tried too hard to make them merely morally questionable. I think it's a bit late for that.

SixKeys
01-28-2013, 09:35 PM
While I understand both sides to an extent, I have to go with the assassins. The Templars seek order through control, the assassins think people should be free to make their own decisions. The Templars favor dictatorship as long as the dictator agrees with their goals, the assassins favor democracy. It's hard to say no to democracy.

ToughGuy31
01-28-2013, 09:38 PM
Assassin FTW! I would rather die than lose my free will.

stingray10
01-28-2013, 09:56 PM
I would beTemplar. People need to be controlled because without control, the world will eventually destroy itself with greed. Westernised 'Democracy' isn't exactly clean, it's very hypocritical. Every man for himself basically. We need a sustainable future and Abstergo Industries offers us the best option.

RinoTheBouncer
01-28-2013, 09:59 PM
Not mad :) I just think they're forgetting the way the story has been set up.

Obviously both sides are shady, but the writers made the Templars unmistakably evil and then tried too hard to make them merely morally questionable. I think it's a bit late for that.

I agree with the last part. I chose Assassins though I was thinking "What if the Templars do have a point? what if creating a perfect world based on free will is just a childhood dream like "when I grow up, I wanna be a princess" and reality was that humans can never live in peace without control? what if someone like Haytham rules instead of Cesare and we all went by his principles which made a bit of sense?" yet on the other hand, as you said the games spent a long time convincing us of how good the Assassins aims are and how evil the Templars have been so it's a little bit late to be choosing between this or that team.

It's like Twilight, choose between Team Edward or Team Jacob, while in fact, from the first moment of the film, I was 1000% sure that Bella is for Edward, full stop, without a single thought that Jacob might have a chance. Now I know some might make fun of this statement because Twilight is kind of hated by some or whatever, but I don't care. It's sort of the same thing. They sort of give the fans the thought that they're choosing between which team they're on while the game spends it's hard efforts to convince you that Assassins are the right ones.


I would beTemplar. People need to be controlled because without control, the world will eventually destroy itself with greed. Westernised 'Democracy' isn't exactly clean, it's very hypocritical. Every man for himself basically. We need a sustainable future and Abstergo Industries offers us the best option.

I have to agree with you despite me choosing Assassins. I think in reality, there's no free will, we've always been guided by somebody and the concept of leadership was born out of the need to be led. I also think that Democracy is an illusion, it's nothing more than the right to bark (sorry for the word) without being punished but that doesn't mean anybody's gonna care what you're saying or change anything and that's what's happening. People revolt, nobody cares, and if they made violence to over throw a government then where's the democracy? then they vote for somebody who's basically like the picture below, so after all the cycle begins anew over and over.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQld-vYZrThngGna1XswYB8Aq4s5RdE1RiLyAbssTOLG1jkuKpG1A

TheHumanTowel
01-28-2013, 10:02 PM
Assassins all the way.
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM.
"I offered them Utopia, but they fought for the right to live in hell."

ToughGuy31
01-28-2013, 10:05 PM
I would beTemplar. People need to be controlled because without control, the world will eventually destroy itself with greed. Westernised 'Democracy' isn't exactly clean, it's very hypocritical. Every man for himself basically. We need a sustainable future and Abstergo Industries offers us the best option.
But as Altair said, that's why we have laws, they limit us from doing bad.

SixKeys
01-28-2013, 10:10 PM
But as Altair said, that's why we have laws, they limit us from doing bad.

Not exactly. Laws can be evil as well. Segregation laws, anti-gay laws, sharia law etc. Laws are created by people which means they can be flawed. The difference between the assassin and Templar ideology is that the Templars would create laws that they deem to be for the best of everyone and the people wouldn't be allowed to overturn those laws by voting. The assassins fight for the people's right to choose what kind of society they want to live in.

RinoTheBouncer
01-28-2013, 10:13 PM
Not exactly. Laws can be evil as well. Segregation laws, anti-gay laws, sharia law etc. Laws are created by people which means they can be flawed. The difference between the assassin and Templar ideology is that the Templars would create laws that they deem to be for the best of everyone and the people wouldn't be allowed to overturn those laws by voting. The assassins fight for the people's right to choose what kind of society they want to live in.

I'm an Assassin. But I wonder if it really matters what we vote for if we don't know that there's something wrong with what's happening. Like for example, the First Civilization could control everyone and unless somebody knew about this, they wouldn't have complained.

ToughGuy31
01-28-2013, 10:16 PM
Not exactly. Laws can be evil as well. Segregation laws, anti-gay laws, sharia law etc. Laws are created by people which means they can be flawed. The difference between the assassin and Templar ideology is that the Templars would create laws that they deem to be for the best of everyone and the people wouldn't be allowed to overturn those laws by voting. The assassins fight for the people's right to choose what kind of society they want to live in.

Exactly, people should be able to chose how they want to live, not follow someone else's views. The Templars do have a good idea, but people should always have the right to chose.

SixKeys
01-28-2013, 10:27 PM
I'm an Assassin. But I wonder if it really matters what we vote for if we don't know that there's something wrong with what's happening. Like for example, the First Civilization could control everyone and unless somebody knew about this, they wouldn't have complained.

The fact that you're allowed to question whether there's something wrong or if things could be better makes the difference. Think of it as a bit like North-Korea. All forms of media are controlled there and the people are expected to - even forced to - blindly worship the head of state who is practically considered a god. Anyone who questions if things might be better elsewhere or if any other form of government might be more efficient is silenced. The press isn't free to report on reality like it truly is. So if we found out tomorrow that a huge asteroid was headed for the Earth and there was nothing we could do to stop it, the North-Korean government could choose to withhold the information from its people. You could argue that knowing the truth would create chaos in the rest of the world and it probably would, but it would also give people the opportunity to say goodbye to their loved ones and make amends for regrettable things said in the past. To the people of NK, this chance would be taken away because someone in control made the decision for 24 million people that they should be spared the truth.

ToughGuy31
01-28-2013, 10:33 PM
The fact that you're allowed to question whether there's something wrong or if things could be better makes the difference. Think of it as a bit like North-Korea. All forms of media are controlled there and the people are expected to - even forced to - blindly worship the head of state who is practically considered a god. Anyone who questions if things might be better elsewhere or if any other form of government might be more efficient is silenced. The press isn't free to report on reality like it truly is. So if we found out tomorrow that a huge asteroid was headed for the Earth and there was nothing we could do to stop it, the North-Korean government could choose to withhold the information from its people. You could argue that knowing the truth would create chaos in the rest of the world and it probably would, but it would also give people the opportunity to say goodbye to their loved ones and make amends for regrettable things said in the past. To the people of NK, this chance would be taken away because someone in control made the decision for 24 million people that they should be spared the truth.

This is exactly what the Templars are doing. They keep people in fear, block vital information, and silence anyone who appose them.

StUbbZ24
01-28-2013, 10:55 PM
Templar

It seems like it's just impossible to achieve what the Assassins want, and I always found myself agreeing with Haytham and most of AC1's Templars.

RinoTheBouncer
01-28-2013, 11:08 PM
The fact that you're allowed to question whether there's something wrong or if things could be better makes the difference. Think of it as a bit like North-Korea. All forms of media are controlled there and the people are expected to - even forced to - blindly worship the head of state who is practically considered a god. Anyone who questions if things might be better elsewhere or if any other form of government might be more efficient is silenced. The press isn't free to report on reality like it truly is. So if we found out tomorrow that a huge asteroid was headed for the Earth and there was nothing we could do to stop it, the North-Korean government could choose to withhold the information from its people. You could argue that knowing the truth would create chaos in the rest of the world and it probably would, but it would also give people the opportunity to say goodbye to their loved ones and make amends for regrettable things said in the past. To the people of NK, this chance would be taken away because someone in control made the decision for 24 million people that they should be spared the truth.

Of course I agree about that. I'm Iraqi and Saddam Hussein's time was no different from this if not worse and same goes for most Arab countries. It sucks but I was saying in case we were not aware, like nobody will silence you, nobody will force you because you will just do as you're told because you want to do it because the Apple of Eden makes you want to do it without any awareness from your side that you're being controlled and also in case that those using the Apple know what they're doing not just increasing their own properties numbers and sizes. In that case, maybe, just maybe it will be positive.


Templar

It seems like it's just impossible to achieve what the Assassins want, and I always found myself agreeing with Haytham and most of AC1's Templars.

Assassin here, but I agree that the aim of the Assassins is becoming more like the "When I grow up, I wanna be a princess" kinda aim.

Kaschra
01-29-2013, 12:21 AM
This is really tough. I don't think I'm able to chose.
Both sides have good points, though.

I think free will is priceless and worth fighting for. I don't want to be mind-controlled like a puppet, I want to be able to think for myself.
But freedom is not peace, it is chaotic.

There is one point from the Templars I completelly agree with:
That true peace does not exist. As long as the human kind exist, there will be war.
It has always been like that, people killing each other for the most stupid reasons, enslaving and murdering those who think different, are different.
The way the world is real peace for everyone is simply impossible. The only way it could be achieved is through controll, like the Templars want.

So, what do I value more? The goals of the Assassins or Templars?
I honestly can't really say.
I really want to think freely for myself, but I don't think I value peace enough. I don't even really know what it's like to not have peace, I always took it for granted.
I have never experienced what war is like. Sure, I can read about it, watch it through TV, but it is not the same. I didn't live through the horros of war - but I think if I did, I would accept any way to make it stop, any way that woluld bring peace.
And that would be the Templars.


But I'm still torn. If the Templars are like Haytham, then yes, I think I would chose them. He was a Templar, but also having some of the idealism of the Assassins.
But if thye are like the Borgias - hell no!

Assassin_M
01-29-2013, 12:23 AM
Not exactly. Laws can be evil as well. sharia law etc.
I`m assuming that`s the "Sharia" law your media tells you about right ?

SixKeys
01-29-2013, 01:31 AM
I`m assuming that`s the "Sharia" law your media tells you about right ?

Probably. We all get our definitions from somewhere and it's usually the media. If you can tell me more about how women are not oppressed under sharia law, then by all means I'm willing to learn.

Assassin_M
01-29-2013, 01:44 AM
Probably. We all get our definitions from somewhere and it's usually the media. If you can tell me more about how women are not oppressed under sharia law, then by all means I'm willing to learn.
When you tell me what they tell you first, I cannot clarify with just a vague "Women are oppressed" xD

SixKeys
01-29-2013, 02:02 AM
When you tell me what they tell you first, I cannot clarify with just a vague "Women are oppressed" xD

According to my knowledge, a woman's witness is only worth half a man's testimony in court, for example. In certain countries like Sudan women have less financial freedom. In some countries like Iran women are banned from taking certain educational courses in universities and in Saudi-Arabia health services are segregated to the point where women's health becomes a serious issue as there aren't enough female physicians to cater to their needs. According to Sharia law, abortion is only acceptable in case the pregnancy puts the mother's health at risk, no exceptions. Can you shed any more light on these issues?

Assassin_M
01-29-2013, 02:44 AM
According to my knowledge, a woman's witness is only worth half a man's testimony in court, for example. In certain countries like Sudan women have less financial freedom. In some countries like Iran women are banned from taking certain educational courses in universities and in Saudi-Arabia health services are segregated to the point where women's health becomes a serious issue as there aren't enough female physicians to cater to their needs. According to Sharia law, abortion is only acceptable in case the pregnancy puts the mother's health at risk, no exceptions. Can you shed any more light on these issues?
It`s not true that a Woman`s testimony is half a man`s but I`ll get to that later. No where in Sharia does it constitute any limitations for Women, be it in Education, Finance (Except when inheriting) Work, Politics..etc. Saudi Arabia has Religious Police that forces people to close their shops when Prayer call starts. That goes completely against Sharia as the Quran states "There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion". [2:256] Which means that there is no force in Religious freedom. Another thing, Sharia has an Electoral system and yet Saudi Arabia is a Kingdom and has NO electoral system whatsoever.

Saudi Arabia does not represent the perfect example of Sharia, as evidenced above. Islam has a History of women founding schools of thought, Universities...etc. Women under Sharia also have a history of being in the Army, of being Scholars and owners of Property (i.e Business Women) It may not be on a large scale, but it was never outlawed. Women had greater freedoms and rights than Western Women before the 20th Century. Common and Western laws are actually influenced by Sharia.

Sharia does not outlaw abortion in itself, on the condition that the Embryo is no more than 4 months old and, as you mentioned, if it risks a mother`s health; However, If a woman was proven to have had an Abortion after 4 months, there is a Punishment, but it`s not severe. It`s usually Spiritual, such as Charity or fasting. In cases of Rape, it is permissible, but generally speaking, rape is hard to prove and that is why it`s ruling has changed so much over the years.

A Woman had a debate with one of the Rushidun Caliphs, Umar Ibn al Khattab (Radeya allah anho) in a Mosque, she proved him wrong, exerted her evidence and he said it with a loud voice "Umar was wrong and she was right" in front of everyone and it`s widely known that Umar was one of the more strict of the Rashidun Caliphs, doesn't sound like half a woman to me.

Now regarding a Woman`s Testimony, Women must have companions in a SPECIAL testimony. If a Woman was proven to be lying, her punishment is not as severe as a man. Another thing to note is intimidation. to protect a Woman from wrongful Testimony, another Woman is provided to hold the other`s ground. The emotions of a Woman greatly differ from those of men.

According to the West, the following verse from the Quran proves that it holds two females in worth to one man:

"O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her."

So their claim is that the above verse commands the Muslims to get one male witness, and TWO female witnesses, hence a female is worth half a man and this is inequality.

To begin with, nowhere in the above verse does it say you should get two female witnesses because a female is worth half a man, or that two females equals the worth of one man. I just posted the verse for you, you can read it again for yourself, and you will see that it never says such a thing.

Interestingly enough the Quran does give us the reason as to why it stipulated such a ruling, and the reason is as follows:

"and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her."

So the reason for having two females is in case one of them makes a mistake! So if one commits an error or forgets something, the other female can simply help her out, hence this ruling is simply a means of convenience and help for the lady! If the main female witness does not commit any mistakes or errors, then the second female will not be needed, and the witness of the main female will be good enough, essentially the other female is just there to HELP HER OUT IN CASE OF A MISTAKE, if no mistake, then no problem.

Secondly, there is a context to this verse, as we read from the start of the passage, this is referring to CONTRACTUAL dealings, so if you are going to write out a contract concerning debts, then you must do it according to the following procedure. At the time of revelation, women were not really experts or that knowledgeable in the field of business contracts etc, it was not their area of expertise, and this is precisely why the Quran allocated them more help!

Thirdly, if none of this satisfies and you hold that Islam holds Men more emotionally stable than Women, then let me completely refute that two females equal the worth of one man. According to the Quran, if a husband accuses his wife of adultery, and he has no witnesses, then he himself counts as the four witnesses, and he must make a fifth oath in which he invokes the curse of God upon himself if he is lying. Likewise, the wife can claim her innocence by testifying four times that she is free of his claim, and then she makes a fifth oath invoking the curse of God if she is lying. Hence her testimony alone is enough to throw his accusation out, and is enough to absolve her of the claim, and is enough to prove her innocent. Her own testimony trumps that of the male husband! Her own testimony holds more importance and weight than his, because the entire case depends on her testimony, if she declares herself free of the accusation, then there is no case and she is free!

The Quran makes this very clear:

"As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth; And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie; And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth." (24:6-9)

So the above completely debunks the argument, if the testimony and worth of a female was half of that to a man, then the accusation of the husband would be enough to pronounce her guilt, even if she rejected the accusation, yet we find that her testimony ALONE is enough to absolve her of any accusation and is enough to throw his own claim out the window.

So in conclusion, nowhere in the Quran does it state that the testimony of a female is worth half a man. You may not agree with some of this, but that HARDLY sounds evil...

Just to add in finality, the greatest Woman role Model in Islam was a successful Businesswoman. Prophet Muhammed`s Wife. Khadija. (Peace be upon her)

Turul.
01-29-2013, 05:08 AM
A life without liberty is not a life at all.

I construct my own destiny, no man can take that from me.

I-Like-Pie45
01-29-2013, 05:59 AM
Why can't we opt to be a neutral?

I agree and disagree with parts of both Assassin and Templar philosophy.

RinoTheBouncer
01-29-2013, 01:18 PM
A life without liberty is not a life at all.

I construct my own destiny, no man can take that from me.

I chose Assassin. But, are you actually constructing your own destiny? does any of us truly have a free will? I don't think so.


It`s not true that a Woman`s testimony is half a man`s but I`ll get to that later. No where in Sharia does it constitute any limitations for Women, be it in Education, Finance (Except when inheriting) Work, Politics..etc. Saudi Arabia has Religious Police that forces people to close their shops when Prayer call starts. That goes completely against Sharia as the Quran states "There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion". [2:256] Which means that there is no force in Religious freedom. Another thing, Sharia has an Electoral system and yet Saudi Arabia is a Kingdom and has NO electoral system whatsoever.

Saudi Arabia does not represent the perfect example of Sharia, as evidenced above. Islam has a History of women founding schools of thought, Universities...etc. Women under Sharia also have a history of being in the Army, of being Scholars and owners of Property (i.e Business Women) It may not be on a large scale, but it was never outlawed. Women had greater freedoms and rights than Western Women before the 20th Century. Common and Western laws are actually influenced by Sharia.

Sharia does not outlaw abortion in itself, on the condition that the Embryo is no more than 4 months old and, as you mentioned, if it risks a mother`s health; However, If a woman was proven to have had an Abortion after 4 months, there is a Punishment, but it`s not severe. It`s usually Spiritual, such as Charity or fasting. In cases of Rape, it is permissible, but generally speaking, rape is hard to prove and that is why it`s ruling has changed so much over the years.

A Woman had a debate with one of the Rushidun Caliphs, Umar Ibn al Khattab (Radeya allah anho) in a Mosque, she proved him wrong, exerted her evidence and he said it with a loud voice "Umar was wrong and she was right" in front of everyone and it`s widely known that Umar was one of the more strict of the Rashidun Caliphs, doesn't sound like half a woman to me.

Now regarding a Woman`s Testimony, Women must have companions in a SPECIAL testimony. If a Woman was proven to be lying, her punishment is not as severe as a man. Another thing to note is intimidation. to protect a Woman from wrongful Testimony, another Woman is provided to hold the other`s ground. The emotions of a Woman greatly differ from those of men.

According to the West, the following verse from the Quran proves that it holds two females in worth to one man:

"O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her."

So their claim is that the above verse commands the Muslims to get one male witness, and TWO female witnesses, hence a female is worth half a man and this is inequality.

To begin with, nowhere in the above verse does it say you should get two female witnesses because a female is worth half a man, or that two females equals the worth of one man. I just posted the verse for you, you can read it again for yourself, and you will see that it never says such a thing.

Interestingly enough the Quran does give us the reason as to why it stipulated such a ruling, and the reason is as follows:

"and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her."

So the reason for having two females is in case one of them makes a mistake! So if one commits an error or forgets something, the other female can simply help her out, hence this ruling is simply a means of convenience and help for the lady! If the main female witness does not commit any mistakes or errors, then the second female will not be needed, and the witness of the main female will be good enough, essentially the other female is just there to HELP HER OUT IN CASE OF A MISTAKE, if no mistake, then no problem.

Secondly, there is a context to this verse, as we read from the start of the passage, this is referring to CONTRACTUAL dealings, so if you are going to write out a contract concerning debts, then you must do it according to the following procedure. At the time of revelation, women were not really experts or that knowledgeable in the field of business contracts etc, it was not their area of expertise, and this is precisely why the Quran allocated them more help!

Thirdly, if none of this satisfies and you hold that Islam holds Men more emotionally stable than Women, then let me completely refute that two females equal the worth of one man. According to the Quran, if a husband accuses his wife of adultery, and he has no witnesses, then he himself counts as the four witnesses, and he must make a fifth oath in which he invokes the curse of God upon himself if he is lying. Likewise, the wife can claim her innocence by testifying four times that she is free of his claim, and then she makes a fifth oath invoking the curse of God if she is lying. Hence her testimony alone is enough to throw his accusation out, and is enough to absolve her of the claim, and is enough to prove her innocent. Her own testimony trumps that of the male husband! Her own testimony holds more importance and weight than his, because the entire case depends on her testimony, if she declares herself free of the accusation, then there is no case and she is free!

The Quran makes this very clear:

"As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth; And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie; And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth." (24:6-9)

So the above completely debunks the argument, if the testimony and worth of a female was half of that to a man, then the accusation of the husband would be enough to pronounce her guilt, even if she rejected the accusation, yet we find that her testimony ALONE is enough to absolve her of any accusation and is enough to throw his own claim out the window.

So in conclusion, nowhere in the Quran does it state that the testimony of a female is worth half a man. You may not agree with some of this, but that HARDLY sounds evil...

Just to add in finality, the greatest Woman role Model in Islam was a successful Businesswoman. Prophet Muhammed`s Wife. Khadija. (Peace be upon her)

:Applause: :Standing Ovation:

Sturnz0r
01-29-2013, 08:13 PM
That`s stupid. It was the Natives` land...You`re excusing that ?? You`v no respect from me.

On-topic: I`d be a Templar. Their Ideals are just far more convincing. They actually work for the better of Mankind. Order, Purpose and Direction.They`re realistic and that`s something worth fighting for. Realism, Cynical as it may be. Only con is that some Templars may go wacky with the concept that they`re better than everyone else and raise themselves above showing that Templars too can be weak.

The one who convinced me is Haytham. You can be a Templar AND share Assassin Ideals and Principles.

Many indians were very nice. but some practiced barbarism quite often.... Wash was facing much pressure to push them injuns back

ZerOtodona
01-29-2013, 09:25 PM
I said assassin, but really, I am for both sides. You can't have freedom without some control and too much control kills people.:rolleyes:

SixKeys
01-29-2013, 11:03 PM
Sharia does not outlaw abortion in itself, on the condition that the Embryo is no more than 4 months old and, as you mentioned, if it risks a mother`s health; However, If a woman was proven to have had an Abortion after 4 months, there is a Punishment, but it`s not severe. It`s usually Spiritual, such as Charity or fasting. In cases of Rape, it is permissible, but generally speaking, rape is hard to prove and that is why it`s ruling has changed so much over the years.

There should be no punishment at all, at least to non-Muslims. I'm not sure how this works in coutnries where the majority of people are Muslims but Islam is not the official state religion. How does it work where you live, for example? Is it possible for an atheist woman to get an abortion with no conditions or punishments attached?


To begin with, nowhere in the above verse does it say you should get two female witnesses because a female is worth half a man, or that two females equals the worth of one man. I just posted the verse for you, you can read it again for yourself, and you will see that it never says such a thing.

Interestingly enough the Quran does give us the reason as to why it stipulated such a ruling, and the reason is as follows:

"and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her."

So the reason for having two females is in case one of them makes a mistake! So if one commits an error or forgets something, the other female can simply help her out, hence this ruling is simply a means of convenience and help for the lady! If the main female witness does not commit any mistakes or errors, then the second female will not be needed, and the witness of the main female will be good enough, essentially the other female is just there to HELP HER OUT IN CASE OF A MISTAKE, if no mistake, then no problem.

Wait, if it's simply about remembering correctly and accuracy, why are two men enough but not one man and one woman? Shouldn't it be three men, so that in case one of them forgets, the other can remind him? They seem to simply assume a man couldn't possibly be mistaken in his witness while a woman is more likely to err. To me this seems like a prime example of a woman's testimony being worth half a man's.

I do appreciate the additional insight from your perspective. I'm sure there are a lot of misconceptions about Sharia law in western media. I also know that what religious books actually say and how those words are implemented in society can be two different things, such as in Saudi-Arabia where the discrimination against women is taken to the extreme. This is true of pretty much all religions, though. The Bible, for example, has nothing negative to say about abortion yet many societies base their anti-abortion policies on their own personal interpretation of the ancient texts.

Assassin_M
01-29-2013, 11:16 PM
There should be no punishment at all, at least to non-Muslims. I'm not sure how this works in coutnries where the majority of people are Muslims but Islam is not the official state religion. How does it work where you live, for example? Is it possible for an atheist woman to get an abortion with no conditions or punishments attached?

Sharia Law gives non-muslim communities the freedom to use their own laws amongst themselves completely independent from Sharia, the same goes for my Country, but why shouldn't there be a Punishment ? If a law is broken then there has to be Punishment, 4 months is pretty adequate for a Woman to know if she`s pregnant or not. Charity and fasting also seem like BARELY a Punishment. If a woman is capable then she should give alms, if she is not then she should fast, if she can do both, better and better.

Wait, if it's simply about remembering correctly and accuracy, why are two men enough but not one man and one woman? Shouldn't it be three men, so that in case one of them forgets, the other can remind him? They seem to simply assume a man couldn't possibly be mistaken in his witness while a woman is more likely to err. To me this seems like a prime example of a woman's testimony being worth half a man's.

Like I said, this concerned a SPECIAL Testimony and not ANY Testimony (Proven by the verse referring to Adultery testimony). Contractual dealings, at that time, were not exactly occupied by many Women. It also said, "IF" IF she errs. it`s not a condition. the presence of one Woman is enough if she does not err. The second Woman is to simply make sure the other stands her ground. A man is less likely to err, because men had more experience in Trade and contractual dealings.

I do appreciate the additional insight from your perspective. I'm sure there are a lot of misconceptions about Sharia law in western media. I also know that what religious books actually say and how those words are implemented in society can be two different things, such as in Saudi-Arabia where the discrimination against women is taken to the extreme. This is true of pretty much all religions, though. The Bible, for example, has nothing negative to say about abortion yet many societies base their anti-abortion policies on their own personal interpretation of the ancient texts.
RED

And I appreciate your eagerness to learn and understand. Thank You:)
Discrimination against Women in Saudi Arabia is the cause of culture, but most Western Media mix between Culture and Sharia simply because Most Muslims are Arabs.

TheHumanTowel
01-29-2013, 11:28 PM
Hurray for civil discussion!

Assassin_M
01-29-2013, 11:52 PM
Hurray for civil discussion!
I bet you never expected that from me:p

thekarlone
01-30-2013, 01:09 AM
May the father of understanding guide us.
Que el Padre del Entendimiento nos guíe.

SixKeys
01-30-2013, 01:30 AM
BTW, what significance does the phrase "May the Father of Understanding guide us" have in the AC universe? Who is it referring to and is it still used by modern day Templars? In historical context I would imagine it traditionally referred to God, but in the AC universe the Templars don't seem to think of themselves as serving a higher power, just their own goals for peace.

TheHumanTowel
01-30-2013, 01:39 AM
BTW, what significance does the phrase "May the Father of Understanding guide us" have in the AC universe? Who is it referring to and is it still used by modern day Templars? In historical context I would imagine it traditionally referred to God, but in the AC universe the Templars don't seem to think of themselves as serving a higher power, just their own goals for peace.
I thought it was a reference to some unseen power the Templars follow, like one of TWCB or Cain or somebody but seeing as it's been 5 games and it still hasn't been brought up it's starting to look like it's just a saying the Templars have that means "May reason guide us" or something along those lines. That'd be a pretty boring answer though.

SixKeys
01-30-2013, 02:03 AM
I thought it was a reference to some unseen power the Templars follow, like one of TWCB or Cain or somebody but seeing as it's been 5 games and it still hasn't been brought up it's starting to look like it's just a saying the Templars have that means "May reason guide us" or something along those lines. That'd be a pretty boring answer though.

Yeah, seems a bit weird considering the Templars don't really have any allegience with TWCB. Maybe Juno will make a pact with them in AC4 seeing as they're both for order through control, but generally speaking I don't think the Templars look up to TWCB. They were, after all, originally the slavers of mankind. As for a higher power, the Templars seem eager to use religion to control the masses, but don't seem to care for it as a philosophy in and of itself.

easternunit100
01-30-2013, 02:52 AM
Interesting Assassins vs Templars I don't really care I choose both :)

easternunit100
01-30-2013, 02:57 AM
I just like both Assassins and Templars.

Turul.
01-30-2013, 03:05 AM
it's sad to me there are so many willing to give up liberty for promises of "peace" and "stability"

Assassin_M
01-30-2013, 05:10 AM
it's sad to me there are so many willing to give up liberty for promises of "peace" and "stability"
More like, Peace, Order, Stability, Purpose, Progression, Unity, Equality and Direction.

Turul.
01-30-2013, 06:02 AM
More like, Peace, Order, Stability, Purpose, Progression, Unity, Equality and Direction.

History has shown time and time again that societies ran by absolute dictators or monarchs fail, fall, and oppress it's citizens.

have none of you learned anything from these games?

Assassin_M
01-30-2013, 06:12 AM
History has shown time and time again that societies ran by absolute dictators or monarchs fail, fall, and oppress it's citizens.

have none of you learned anything from these games?
Templars are not Monarchs..

History has also shown that Humanity has failed to make any significant peace or unity on its own. Think about it...What would be our state of development and advancement had we worked as one body ?? Focused on a goal ??

I`v seen too many deaths to want more wars just for the sake of "Freedom" or "Liberty"..

What do the Assassins do ? Fight Templars ? Thank You very much, the World still sucks....

Turul.
01-30-2013, 06:21 AM
Templars are not Monarchs..

History has also shown that Humanity has failed to make any significant peace or unity on its own. Think about it...What would be our state of development and advancement had we worked as one body ?? Focused on a goal ??

I`v seen too many deaths to want more wars just for the sake of "Freedom" or "Liberty"..

What do the Assassins do ? Fight Templars ? Thank You very much, the World still sucks....

in revelations Prince Sulieman had one of the most insightful lines in the entire series

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoJQOA7NFXI&t=4m53s

there is a price to pay for liberty and freedom, and though it seems the struggle is never ending, it is still worth the fight

the world has done a great many things because it CHOSE to do them, rather than forced to.

the irony of the "there is no peace" argument is that many of the world's problems and atrocities are caused by those looking for POWER, and CONTROL, things the templars prioritize

Assassin_M
01-30-2013, 06:24 AM
in revelations Prince Sulieman had one of the most insightful lines in the entire series

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoJQOA7NFXI&t=4m53s

there is a price to pay for liberty and freedom, and though it seems the struggle is never ending, it is still worth the fight

the world has done a great many things because it CHOSE to do them, rather than forced to.

the irony of the "there is no peace" argument is that many of the world's problems and atrocities are caused by those looking for POWER, and CONTROL, things the templars prioritize
Some Atrocities for the greater good...

We started the Boston Massacre. Lives were lost, but had they known what it would have started, they would`v thanked us before they died (Oh I`m totally doing this:p You talk from an Assassin POV as well:D)

Turul.
01-30-2013, 06:26 AM
Some Atrocities for the greater good...

We started the Boston Massacre. Lives were lost, but had they known what it would have started, they would`v thanked us before they died (Oh I`m totally doing this:p You talk from an Assassin POV as well:D)

greater good.

you speak as if the world is a game.

Assassin_M
01-30-2013, 06:30 AM
greater good.

you speak as if the world is a game.
And you speak as if you have right to Judge....What betterment have you given to Humanity ?? We`v given them Technology, not ours, but we made them so...We BROUGHT them the 21st Century. We want to save them from their lusts and their petty arguments...we will lead them all the while yours continue killing ours..

Turul.
01-30-2013, 06:36 AM
And you speak as if you have right to Judge....What betterment have you given to Humanity ?? We`v given them Technology, not ours, but we made them so...We BROUGHT them the 21st Century. We want to save them from their lusts and their petty arguments...we will lead them all the while yours continue killing ours..

you've lead them into a world twisted by your own lies. you preach peace, and purpose, but treat many as your subjects and henchman. what life have you given them? a life of slavery? a life of fear? they are but pawns on your chessboard.

Assassin_M
01-30-2013, 06:42 AM
you've lead them into a world twisted by your own lies. you preach peace, and purpose, but treat many as your subjects and henchman. what life have you given them? a life of slavery? a life of fear? they are but pawns on your chessboard.
Preparation for when the right time comes, If we show them the full image, they would not understand and AGAIN they will label us Madmen....Humanity is not ready to know. They never will be. A world full of advancements, we never lied to them, THEY want answers, but they want it too quickly and that is dangerous, A child must be appeased to be lead, do you think an infant would willingly take a sour tasting medicine ? and should you comply if he or she says "NO" ??

You cannot deny our hand in helping this race move forward, you cannot deny our contributions to Human Kind...ALL that with only a fraction of our dream

B_Crispino
01-30-2013, 07:35 AM
Many indians were very nice. but some practiced barbarism quite often.... Wash was facing much pressure to push them injuns back

are you serious???

ProletariatPleb
01-30-2013, 07:39 AM
I'll just let my signature do the work. Ideals.

B_Crispino
01-30-2013, 07:47 AM
this whole freedom concept is really misleading... whenever you make a choice, be it concrete or ideological or anything, you give up your freedom in name of something... to give up my freedom, to submit myself in the name of peace (or whatever it is that you're seeking) is something that we all do daily... the difference is that with the templars that could work. the assassins dont offer ****, they only kill people... i mean, templars...

[Off Topic] Oh, and M, I loved your reply, thank you so much. My professor has just launched a book about Ibn Khaldun and Ibn Battuta entitled "O Mundo Falava Árabe" (The World Spoke Arabic), so you might imagined how this is interesting to me.

Assassin_M
01-30-2013, 07:58 AM
this whole freedom concept is really misleading... whenever you make a choice, be it concrete or ideological or anything, you give up your freedom in name of something... to give up my freedom, to submit myself in the name of peace (or whatever it is that you're seeking) is something that we all do daily... the difference is that with the templars that could work. the assassins dont offer ****, they only kill people... i mean, templars...
Exactly..I mean...sacrificing freedom for peace is supposed to be viewed as Heroic. We`re dedicating ourselves to the ever tiresome goal of leading the entirety of mankind to a better future.


[Off Topic] Oh, and M, I loved your reply, thank you so much. My professor has just launched a book about Ibn Khaldun and Ibn Battuta entitled "O Mundo Falava Árabe" (The World Spoke Arabic), so you might imagined how this is interesting to me.
If you mean the reply about Sharia, You`re Welcome:)

Happy to inadvertently help:D

wackywaffles2
01-30-2013, 11:25 AM
I remember thinking myself as a templar a few days ago, i wanted to make a thread like this but i thought i would get tons of "But the templars are the bad guys!" as responses. Now i see alot of people agree with me....awsome...

SixKeys
01-30-2013, 11:37 AM
What does world peace ultimately entail? Why do most conflicts arise? Because of religion and inequality. In order for world peace to become possible, religion would either have to be outlawed entirely or everyone would have to bow down to one religion. People would be forced to accept things they might disagree with like homosexuality, abortion and sexism, even if accepting those things meant that they were destined for Hell according to their religious beliefs. Is that something you would want, M?

POP1Fan
01-30-2013, 11:44 AM
I read M's posts in Haytham's voice xD

roostersrule2
01-30-2013, 12:40 PM
I'd be an Assassin, because I'm extremely optimistic (too optimistic really).

poptartz20
01-30-2013, 02:35 PM
Ultimately if the Assassins and Templars could come together I see the most being accomplished this way.. Even though it has been stated to be an impossible dream.

Now on the the actual question.

You know... this is a hard call. While I do think the ideals of the assassins is very noble, I feael at the same time it is slightly unrealistic. Haytham really did say it best. Freedom really is an invitation to chaos. Which history has shown us this time and time again. There has never been nor will there ever be in my opinion a consensus. People will always have a different meaning of freedom and religion for that matter as well. We have an illusion that we the people have the power when in reality I don't believe we do. Think about yeah we go out and vote but at the same time we still have the electoral college which still dictates the votes of our voice. once again Haytham said it best people don't want power it's a responsibility to great to bear.

Soo... I think I would have to sway to Templar. Honestly. I believe in freedom, and that one shouldn't be controlled but realistically I think the templars have a better point.

MANKIND WAS BUILT TO SERVE!

avk111
01-30-2013, 03:32 PM
Every system has its flaws and goods, but come to think of it after reading most the posts people put here,

it seems this is an old aging debate that will run in circles , do we embrace the light or the shadow, too much of anything is corrupt, ying yang.

thus we were introduced to the concept of a wiser intellect that runs as a referee on both sides, the concept of god etc.

ironic how this debate will still go on, we require a third party with a wider perspective on both parties.

if we took a trip to space and looked down on planet earth none of this would actually matter in the end. It is only natural we have difference it's inky natural we embrace war and peace.

So let things be and embrace the heavens.

we are all one.

Assassin_M
01-30-2013, 07:33 PM
What does world peace ultimately entail? Why do most conflicts arise? Because of religion and inequality. In order for world peace to become possible, religion would either have to be outlawed entirely or everyone would have to bow down to one religion. People would be forced to accept things they might disagree with like homosexuality, abortion and sexism, even if accepting those things meant that they were destined for Hell according to their religious beliefs. Is that something you would want, M?
We don't really need to change their views, just divert their Attention away from War and more towards progression and Unity. Religious wars vanished a long time ago, what happens now is because of Injustice, inequality, oppression and stealing of lands that each side strongly believes belongs to them. If we can divert their attention away from war, BY LEADING THEM, there will be peace without necessarily changing their views. Wars are a result of this "freedom" the unbalanced scale of power, under our rule, we`ll balance the scales, if we are in control, there`ll be no more wars. All it takes is for us to be in control....We do not provide a replacement for anything, we GIVE them progression and peace


I read M's posts in Haytham's voice xD
Ohhh Do you want me to hold your hand perhaps ??

SixKeys
01-30-2013, 10:10 PM
We don't really need to change their views, just divert their Attention away from War and more towards progression and Unity. Religious wars vanished a long time ago, what happens now is because of Injustice, inequality, oppression and stealing of lands that each side strongly believes belongs to them. If we can divert their attention away from war, BY LEADING THEM, there will be peace without necessarily changing their views. Wars are a result of this "freedom" the unbalanced scale of power, under our rule, we`ll balance the scales, if we are in control, there`ll be no more wars. All it takes is for us to be in control....We do not provide a replacement for anything, we GIVE them progression and peace

Religious wars are over? So 9/11 was just a prank then?

You keep talking about control and leading the people, yet refuse to provide concrete examples of HOW exactly you would go about diverting people's attention away from what is deeply ingrained in their psyches. How do you propose to convince suicide bombers that they should give up the purpose they've been training for their whole lives? To give up the promise of paradise and glory of their God? How do you divert people's attention away from what they consider their home, which (in their opinion) has been taken from them by foreign invaders? The only way to convince these people to follow you is to promise to give them what they want and punish those who've wronged them, inevitably creating another war.

Assassin_M
01-30-2013, 10:38 PM
Religious wars are over? So 9/11 was just a prank then?

You keep talking about control and leading the people, yet refuse to provide concrete examples of HOW exactly you would go about diverting people's attention away from what is deeply ingrained in their psyches. How do you propose to convince suicide bombers that they should give up the purpose they've been training for their whole lives? To give up the promise of paradise and glory of their God? How do you divert people's attention away from what they consider their home, which (in their opinion) has been taken from them by foreign invaders? The only way to convince these people to follow you is to promise to give them what they want and punish those who've wronged them, inevitably creating another war.
And what was the reason for 9/11 then ?? Was it ALWAYS a Holy War against the US since it`s creation ? How do you explain the COMPLETE lack of "Islamic" Terrorism in areas such as Japan for example ?? The People who carry out these attacks, do not do it because of who the US is....They do it because of what they do...Bombings, invasions, change of regimes, backing of brutal regimes... HYPOCRISY. Yes, Religious wars are over, what`s happening now is a result of, what these terrorists deem, Injustice and hypocrisy. They sprout it in the name of their religion and god, so what ??? The US government bombs everybody in the name of freedom and Democracy.

When we are in control of everyone they`ll abandon these thoughts, It`s a natural impulse, If we control EVERYTHING, anything else will cease to exist. the US wont bomb Yemen and Afghanistan, in response, Islamic Terrorism will lose popularity. We will not back Dictatorships, in response people wont look at us as Hypocrites. We will not drive Jets into towers and thus, naturally, people wont look at us as Terrorists. It`s a Natural process carefully planned, when we control everything, we impose this plan. We`ll tell Anti-West Terrorists to go home...start families and they`ll listen...do you know why ?? Because we`ll stop bombing. We`ll tell the US to stop bombing, Why ?? Because we`v dispersed the Terrorists.

It`s simple, when we control everything, anything else will STOP...All the wars, the bloodshed, because we`ll hold the strings....We`ll lead this world far better than the idiots who profess to represent it...

SixKeys
01-30-2013, 11:14 PM
When we are in control of everyone they`ll abandon these thoughts, It`s a natural impulse, If we control EVERYTHING, anything else will cease to exist. the US wont bomb Yemen and Afghanistan, in response, Islamic Terrorism will lose popularity. We will not back Dictatorships, in response people wont look at us as Hypocrites.

Yet you've done so in the past. In the past the Templars have backed dictators like the Borgias, Hitler and Stalin. Why should we believe you won't do so again?

And you still didn't answer my question about HOW you actually intend to convince people to follow you. Mind control devices like the PoEs are flawed and the people being controlled aren't genuinely dedicated to your cause, they would just be hypnotized. How exactly would you go about convincing people to abandon deeply held religious and philosophical convictions?

Assassin_M
01-30-2013, 11:28 PM
Yet you've done so in the past. In the past the Templars have backed dictators like the Borgias, Hitler and Stalin. Why should we believe you won't do so again?

And you still didn't answer my question about HOW you actually intend to convince people to follow you. Mind control devices like the PoEs are flawed and the people being controlled aren't genuinely dedicated to your cause, they would just be hypnotized. How exactly would you go about convincing people to abandon deeply held religious and philosophical convictions?
We never backed the Borgia. Rodrigo used the Templar cross as an elevator to his goals. His were the dark ages of the order. Stalin and Hitler were made for a Purpose. We had to create monsters, everything must come from us, the problem AND it`s solution so that the outcome is PERFECT.

Hitler was supposed to instill fear and we provided all the elements for that. Racism, Genocide, Brutality...Same with Stalin. While all that happened, we would arise as the savior. We never lied to the people. We gave them existing problems and made them bigger for everyone to see quite clearly AND we gave them a savior. US....ONLY us. for before they labeled us madmen and sentenced us to be burned, this would ensure our survival as saviors and leaders of a new, reborn world.

Like I told you, If we control everything, anything else will cease to exist. We wont parade around like idiotic hippies claiming "FOLLOW THE TEMPLAR CROSS FOR IT IS THE ROAD TO SALVATION" I told you before, we do not provide a replacement, we provide truth. What mankind was supposed to achieve...Purpose and Direction. Why would I want ANYONE to abandon their religious and Philosophical beliefs ? It`s not dangerous..Only fantastical and besides, if we try to deter them from their beliefs, we`d be making mistakes and meddling with those who are tight on their thoughts. Let them hold on to their fantasies and phantoms however they like. We`ll provide the solutions to the Problems, we`ll hold the strings. What MAD MAN wouldn't want peace and/or purpose if given a choice ?? The Assassins ?? Damm them and what they stand for.....We sought to save them before, but they would not listen, ours is a great goal, too precious to waste on their kind...If a few men, evil men no less, are to be eliminated for the sake of millions more, then so be it.

SkiesSeven
01-31-2013, 01:01 AM
9/11 was just a prank then?

Do your research. There are loads of credible people who challenge the official story, including pilots, and some witnesses offer a very different story.

Don't forget the five dancing Israelis, and the missing Pentagon plane.

JCearlyyears
01-31-2013, 01:30 AM
I choose templars first, then assassin's. What I mean is that I think you have to get good control of everything, and then let it go slowly and still be there to pick it all back up if it ever starts to fall apart(or rather keep some control to prevent it from ever starting to fall apart.). It needs both. It shouldn't be assassin's versus templars, it should be assassin's and templars. There has to be some order, and some freedom. Complete order is useless, there is no freedom, and complete freedom is uselsss, there is no order. Just like it isn't nature vs nurture, it's nature and nurture, the same goes for this. Set everything up first(order, templars) then set it free(freedom, assassins.) but it isn't just assassins now, there is still order, it's assassins and templars, and hopefully, peace.

SixKeys
01-31-2013, 01:43 AM
Do your research. There are loads of credible people who challenge the official story, including pilots, and some witnesses offer a very different story.

Don't forget the five dancing Israelis, and the missing Pentagon plane.

I also hear we never went to the Moon. :rolleyes:

ToughGuy31
01-31-2013, 01:43 AM
We never backed the Borgia. Rodrigo used the Templar cross as an elevator to his goals. His were the dark ages of the order. Stalin and Hitler were made for a Purpose. We had to create monsters, everything must come from us, the problem AND it`s solution so that the outcome is PERFECT.

Hitler was supposed to instill fear and we provided all the elements for that. Racism, Genocide, Brutality...Same with Stalin. While all that happened, we would arise as the savior. We never lied to the people. We gave them existing problems and made them bigger for everyone to see quite clearly AND we gave them a savior. US....ONLY us. for before they labeled us madmen and sentenced us to be burned, this would ensure our survival as saviors and leaders of a new, reborn world.

Like I told you, If we control everything, anything else will cease to exist. We wont parade around like idiotic hippies claiming "FOLLOW THE TEMPLAR CROSS FOR IT IS THE ROAD TO SALVATION" I told you before, we do not provide a replacement, we provide truth. What mankind was supposed to achieve...Purpose and Direction. Why would I want ANYONE to abandon their religious and Philosophical beliefs ? It`s not dangerous..Only fantastical and besides, if we try to deter them from their beliefs, we`d be making mistakes and meddling with those who are tight on their thoughts. Let them hold on to their fantasies and phantoms however they like. We`ll provide the solutions to the Problems, we`ll hold the strings. What MAD MAN wouldn't want peace and/or purpose if given a choice ?? The Assassins ?? Damm them and what they stand for.....We sought to save them before, but they would not listen, ours is a great goal, too precious to waste on their kind...If a few men, evil men no less, are to be eliminated for the sake of millions more, then so be it.

And yet, when you instill fear, you only cause more madness. Hitler "KILLED!" many innocent people because they believed what they wanted to believe. Because they where a certain skin color. Have you seen Bowling for Columbine? Because people fear what may happen to them, they do everything they can to protect themselves. This leads to violence. Violence leads to death and sorrow. Death and Sorrow leads to more fear. More fear leads to more violence. How many more will you be wiling to sacrifice for "A Perfect World?"


they have the moneys -Hickey

don't fault washington too much though. Any commander would want to push the natives away. colonists didn't feel to safe with them in RL

I'm Native American, and I do fault not only Washington, but everyone who was involved in "The Birth of America." While I don't wish any history was changed, that doesn't change the fact that THEY STOLE LAND!

Assassin_M
01-31-2013, 01:47 AM
And yet, when you instill fear, you only cause more madness. Hitler "KILLED!" many innocent people because they believed what they wanted to believe. Because they where a certain skin color. Have you seen Bowling for Columbine? Because people fear what may happen to them, they do everything they can to protect themselves. This leads to violence. Violence leads to death and sorrow. Death and Sorrow leads to more fear. More fear leads to more violence. How many more will you be wiling to sacrifice for "A Perfect World?"
Read my post fully and thoroughly, Assassin. You only seem to have read a small part of it...Everything is explained in that post

SixKeys
01-31-2013, 01:53 AM
Read my post fully and thoroughly, Assassin. You only seem to have read a small part of it...Everything is explained in that post

So.... In order to create peace, you need to first start a war? Hitler and Stalin were the sole reason for WW2. By supporting them, you created the war. How does that make sense?

ToughGuy31
01-31-2013, 01:55 AM
Read my post fully and thoroughly, Assassin. You only seem to have read a small part of it...Everything is explained in that post

I did read it, and you did have a fair point. But your idea that only the Templar's can, and should save the world. And to do that, you will create monsters so you can fend them off and be called a hero, so you can rebuild civilization. And this would be "Your" civilization, not the civilization that we want.

Assassin_M
01-31-2013, 01:56 AM
So.... In order to create peace, you need to first start a war? Hitler and Stalin were the sole reason for WW2. By supporting them, you created the war. How does that make sense?
Again, Like I said, in order to have a PERFECT result, we need to ensure everything, all the elements are from us. The problem AND its solution. Killing existed, Racism existed, Genocide existed, we did not invent these things, we brought them to light...showed everyone a bigger example...one that`s more clear..one that`s more of a threat, because if a problem remains small, people will discard it as insignificant and unworthy of attention, but if it`s loud enough..Well...We helped them realize the dangers of all these acts AND we freed them from them...

Look at it now. Do Jews face Racism as before ?? Is Racism rampant as before ?? It`s still there, but to the same extent ?? No....Is Genocide rampant ?? No....

Assassin_M
01-31-2013, 01:57 AM
I did read it, and you did have a fair point. But your idea that only the Templar's can, and should save the world. And to do that, you will create monsters so you can fend them off and be called a hero, so you can rebuild civilization. And this would be "Your" civilization, not the civilization that we want.
Who is "We" You ? the Assassins ??

ToughGuy31
01-31-2013, 02:01 AM
Who is "We" You ? the Assassins ??

No, "we" is the people you want to "save." What if they don't want to live in "your" world, but "they're" world? You say you want to save "them," but would be willing to unleash a terrible evil on them.

Assassin_M
01-31-2013, 02:07 AM
No, "we" is the people you want to "save." What if they don't want to live in "your" world, but "they're" world? You say you want to save "them," but would be willing to unleash a terrible evil on them.
Just proves that you did not read my post fully. We`ll release evil to show them its threat. people are racist and cruel to each other. They`re a sorry bunch so when we showed them THEIR cruelty on a larger scale they begin to see it clearly...the wrong of it...and then we save them...Their has to be sacrifices..do you think this gives us pleasure ? do you think we wanted to kill 6 million Jews in those chambers ?? How many Templars have the Assassins killed ?? How many of us were burned at stake ?? how many of us do you plan to kill to preserve this "freedom" ? The evil you speak of is no more evil than letting them be free to do what they wish with the naive hope of them one day "LEARNING" peace....You kill with a hope, we kill for a goal.....It`s clear on our sights, Assassin....

ToughGuy31
01-31-2013, 02:27 AM
Just proves that you did not read my post fully. We`ll release evil to show them its threat. people are racist and cruel to each other. They`re a sorry bunch so when we showed them THEIR cruelty on a larger scale they begin to see it clearly...the wrong of it...and then we save them...Their has to be sacrifices..do you think this gives us pleasure ? do you think we wanted to kill 6 million Jews in those chambers ?? How many Templars have the Assassins killed ?? How many of us were burned at stake ?? how many of us do you plan to kill to preserve this "freedom" ? The evil you speak of is no more evil than letting them be free to do what they wish with the naive hope of them one day "LEARNING" peace....You kill with a hope, we kill for a goal.....It`s clear on our sights, Assassin....

Yes I did read it. And I do agree that killing is horrible, but necessary. But a couple days ago, I realized both sides are wrong. Why should killing have to be necessary. Why do we have to fight you, and you us. Why do we have to live as enemies. We are both wrong, and right in our own ways. I just chose the Assassin's because I find more of my beliefs in them.

Assassin_M
01-31-2013, 02:29 AM
Yes I did read it. And I do agree that killing is horrible, but necessary. But a couple days ago, I realized both sides are wrong. Why should killing have to be necessary. Why do we have to fight you, and you us. Why do we have to live as enemies. We are both wrong, and right in our own ways. I just chose the Assassin's because I find more of my beliefs in them.
So long as you continue to preserve freedom, we`ll always be at odds.....and so long as we exist, you`ll continue to hunt us...

We are enemies, one of us must completely remove the other from existence....

ToughGuy31
01-31-2013, 02:30 AM
So long as you continue to preserve freedom, we`ll always be at odds.....and so long as we exist, you`ll continue to hunt us...

We are enemies, one of us must completely remove the other from existence....

Exactly. As one man once told me, "Let's agree to disagree."

Assassin_M
01-31-2013, 02:31 AM
Exactly. As one man once told me, "Let's agree to disagree."
Indeed

B_Crispino
01-31-2013, 02:55 AM
you know... its funny that in every assassin game we had we were always the hunter... i wonder how it would work to be the prey in the hands of some templars (of course that, in time, we would have to kill them, but you got the point). that made me think that the templars arent as interested in the assassins as the other way arround... perhaps they are more interested in help the god **** world... i mean, it is true that in the modern story abstergo is hunting assassins but they are also

RinoTheBouncer
01-31-2013, 10:45 AM
Do your research. There are loads of credible people who challenge the official story, including pilots, and some witnesses offer a very different story.

Don't forget the five dancing Israelis, and the missing Pentagon plane.

Perfectly said.

TheHumanTowel
01-31-2013, 11:20 AM
Do your research. There are loads of credible people who challenge the official story, including pilots, and some witnesses offer a very different story.

Don't forget the five dancing Israelis, and the missing Pentagon plane.
Please keep your horrible conspiracy theories about 9/11 out of this thread.

catkiller97
01-31-2013, 11:30 AM
I voted for Templars!!

Becoz they are doing something good for mankind...

RinoTheBouncer
01-31-2013, 11:05 PM
Please keep your horrible conspiracy theories about 9/11 out of this thread.

Every opinion is welcome here.
I'm sure you can skip them if you don't like them :)

TheHumanTowel
01-31-2013, 11:21 PM
Every opinion is welcome here.
I'm sure you can skip them if you don't like them :)
It's got nothing to do with this thread.

And I was just expressing my opinion that that opinion is terrible.

RinoTheBouncer
01-31-2013, 11:33 PM
It's got nothing to do with this thread.

And I was just expressing my opinion that that opinion is terrible.

Anything's possible my friend.

TheHumanTowel
01-31-2013, 11:38 PM
Anything's possible my friend.
Alright, I'm convinced.

SkiesSeven
02-01-2013, 12:41 AM
Please keep your horrible conspiracy theories about 9/11 out of this thread.

Stop playing Superman. You're just a naive little boy that believes anything your media tell you.

SixKeys
02-01-2013, 12:43 AM
It is my humble opinion that the Holocaust never happened. Every opinion is welcome, right?

ToughGuy31
02-01-2013, 02:40 AM
It is my humble opinion that the Holocaust never happened. Every opinion is welcome, right?

Even as RIDICULOUS as that opinion is, yes every opinion is welcome. Why shouldn't they. It's not like someones forcing them to have someone else's opinion.

SergeantClassie
02-01-2013, 02:46 AM
I'm a templar

Assassin_M
02-01-2013, 02:48 AM
I'm a templar
hugs, brother

ToughGuy31
02-01-2013, 03:16 AM
[QUOTE=Assassin_M;8902197]hugs, brother[/]
Sorry joke was a little cruel

SixKeys
02-01-2013, 08:06 AM
Even as RIDICULOUS as that opinion is, yes every opinion is welcome. Why shouldn't they. It's not like someones forcing them to have someone else's opinion.

So Holocaust denial would be ridiculous yet 9/11 conspiracy theories aren't?

AjinkyaParuleka
02-01-2013, 03:08 PM
I would go for Assassins...
Templar will do anything,kill anyone even if this means their own children to achieve control.They are ruthless,have little to no mercy and its doctrines can easily change a Person with a good personality into a horrid destruction-seeking man.Charles Lee for example.They want a flawless humanity meaning an emotionless world.
Assassins want a flawed humanity,doesn't supports tyranny and the Creed cannot be destroyed,even if the Assassins are erased someone else might invent them again.
Templar's dream of control is like choosing Synthesis in Mass Effect 3,I'd really hate to be jumped to the final phase evolutions in like 2 seconds.

LuluMizuki
02-01-2013, 04:06 PM
I would go for Assassins...
Templar will do anything,kill anyone even if this means their own children to achieve control.They are ruthless,have little to no mercy and its doctrines can easily change a Person with a good personality into a horrid destruction-seeking man.Charles Lee for example.They want a flawless humanity meaning an emotionless world.
Assassins want a flawed humanity,doesn't supports tyranny and the Creed cannot be destroyed,even if the Assassins are erased someone else might invent them again.
Templar's dream of control is like choosing Synthesis in Mass Effect 3,I'd really hate to be jumped to the final phase evolutions in like 2 seconds.

I agree. :)

Felix-Vivo
02-01-2013, 04:29 PM
Still need to read through to see everyone else's opinions. But I would say I'm an Assassin, because the whole 'Nothing is true, everything is permitted' just resonates so strongly with me. You would not believe the number of times I have witnessed people getting into a flap because they cannot see an answer that is right in front them... they are just confined in their way of thinking by what is 'allowed' or what is 'normal'... I always look for loopholes as well when I am given exam briefs and stuff, because everything is permitted! :)

I do agree with a lot of Templar things too, though... I guess the context is important!

Assassin_M
02-01-2013, 07:03 PM
I would go for Assassins...
Templar will do anything,kill anyone even if this means their own children to achieve control.They are ruthless,have little to no mercy and its doctrines can easily change a Person with a good personality into a horrid destruction-seeking man.Charles Lee for example.They want a flawless humanity meaning an emotionless world.
Assassins want a flawed humanity,doesn't supports tyranny and the Creed cannot be destroyed,even if the Assassins are erased someone else might invent them again.
Templar's dream of control is like choosing Synthesis in Mass Effect 3,I'd really hate to be jumped to the final phase evolutions in like 2 seconds.
Oooooh and the Assassins do not do the same ?? I`m sure Connor was so wanting to not kill his father..Right ?? Haytham saved him numerous times...Haytham wanted to save him from the dangerous Assassin thought....

Oh and please tell me how the Assassins started the American Revolution....That revolution was OUR work

RinoTheBouncer
02-11-2013, 09:31 AM
Still need to read through to see everyone else's opinions. But I would say I'm an Assassin, because the whole 'Nothing is true, everything is permitted' just resonates so strongly with me. You would not believe the number of times I have witnessed people getting into a flap because they cannot see an answer that is right in front them... they are just confined in their way of thinking by what is 'allowed' or what is 'normal'... I always look for loopholes as well when I am given exam briefs and stuff, because everything is permitted! :)

I do agree with a lot of Templar things too, though... I guess the context is important!

I agree with you.

A lot of people use traditions or their previous knowledge as some sort of unchangeable and incredibly accurate source of information that they cannot use any other nor even give someone a chance to give a second opinion. It's like someone learned that Earth is flat, they'll always consider it flat even after the see it from outer space. It's also probably because I don't like laws and rules. When Altair took over and later Ezio, their perception of Assassin changed a lot of the strict beliefs they had before or the fixed practices that had to be done whether or not there's any benefit from them.

Assassin_Banana
02-11-2013, 05:01 PM
People have interesting opinions on this thread but if i had to choose in reality between the Assassins and Templar views, i would say none of them are good solutions to real life problems. What happens in our modern society has nothing to do with free will vs order that's just a plot for a fantasy and a game. What happens in our society is the growth of poberty and an incredible waste of our natural resources for a greedy monetary system that enrich a few and make the mayority of people poor. The biggest the poberty of people the biggest the problems and with almost 8 thousand million people living in this world the resources of our world can not be distributed properly in the whole planet with an invention of control called money.
The world is not governed with politicans is governed with money, all of what we depend upon is our capacity to get the mayor amount posible, all the laws, the future of our lives, the quality we can give to our children and ourselves, the influence one person has on another and the influence rich nations and poor nations have on its people always depend on money and the recources each one has.

For example: Many fans on this forums have complained on not having another Connor game, and im sure the the creators of Connor would love to make more games with him, after all, they given their art and passion to create him, BUT if the company don't see the character of Connor as something the great mayority won't buy, then they will simply won't waste their money and resources if is not profitiable. It has nothing to do with Connor developers hating on their fans.

Just my 2 cents :)

Oh, and by the way im an Assassin Fruit it says so in my name profile.

Vittoria agli assassini!!!!

YuurHeen
02-11-2013, 05:20 PM
Neither. I am no templar because peace means nothing if you don't have the freedom to live the way you want as long as other's freedom are not limited by your actions. the last part is one of the reasons I am also no assassin.
Another reason I am no assassin is because taking someones live, even if it is for the greater good, is wrong and only justifies others to take yours.

If I had to choose I would choose to be a templar and only guide and not force the people into a more better world.

Spider_Sith9
02-11-2013, 06:27 PM
Oh jeez, this thread. One of the most feared on any forum EVER about this series... With the amount of Templar lovers, I wonder why UbiGabe calls us "Assassins" :p

Both and I'll tell you why... I play the Singleplayer which has you playing as an Assassin. I played the Multiplayer which has you playing as a Templar and now a Gamer/non-Gamer. You need a bit of both to achieve true peace. Too much control is just as bad as too much freedom. It'll create a revolution, and humans being the monsters they are, will create chaos.

As for the people who are Templars and those who have an issue with it. There are only four reasons and four reasons only... Their code is much peaceful (order, duh). Assassin's Creed 3 had Connor who people hated. People hated Assassin's Creed 3 itself as well. But most of all, it has HAYTHAM and he is a good poster boy for them. They take this series so literal that they believe the Assassins/Ubisoft failed them and now Haytham is their new leader. It never had anything to do with Order.

d4st4n96
02-11-2013, 06:42 PM
"Nothing is true, Everything is permitted" - LIVE BY THE CREED! :) <3

ktyoung
02-11-2013, 07:31 PM
Assassins. Because, for one, THEY'RE THE FRIGGIN PROTAGONISTS PEOPLE!!! Two, the Templars want a picture-perfect world in which they control everyone's mind, and they achieve peace through perfection. Don't you get it? They wanted to launch a huge satellite rigged with an apple into the atmosphere so that they could manipulate the minds of every human on the earth! How is there freedom in that? I just don't get how everyone could abandon the ideals set forth by Ezio and Altair, who were both amazing characters. Plus, you saw what a bunch of a-holes the Templar leaders were in every game! Does that seem O.K. to you?

ktyoung
02-11-2013, 07:37 PM
And stop bashing Connor for God's sake! Yes, he was underdeveloped. But think about it, the game had him trying to do what was right in a time period that was most famous for a conflict that arose out of the tension between the British and the colonists. He didn't have time for the emotional such-and-such. He was betrayed like 2 or 3 times throughout the game, his mother was burned alive, his father's a complete ****, the one man that was closest to a father for Connor passed away during the climax of it all, his people were treated unfairly and forced out of the region, and you guys want him to be what? Sensitive? I don't think so.....

ktyoung
02-11-2013, 07:44 PM
Oooooh and the Assassins do not do the same ?? I`m sure Connor was so wanting to not kill his father..Right ?? Haytham saved him numerous times...Haytham wanted to save him from the dangerous Assassin thought....

Oh and please tell me how the Assassins started the American Revolution....That revolution was OUR work

It's a game. Assassins and Templars had NOTHING TO DO with the Revolution! Please, tell me you weren't serious.
Oh, and BTW, he did not want to kill his father, he wanted to believe they were seeing eye-to-eye, but, in my opinion, his father jacked that up when he tried to turn Connor against Washington, forgetting that he too knew of the Patriot's plans for Connor's people.

Assassin_M
02-11-2013, 07:44 PM
I`m a Templar, I loved Connor and I`m not an a-hole, I never promise freedom, but I`m a loving father...

ktyoung
02-11-2013, 07:47 PM
Also, if his father had ever cared, then why was he so keen to kill Connor? Had Connor not been given a chance to say last words in the Missing Supplies mission, HE WOULD BE DEAD!!! Answer that, you Templar fans out there.....

I_Leave_No_Trace
02-11-2013, 07:50 PM
Assassins because I don't like templars and I'm a Muslim

Assassin_M
02-11-2013, 07:51 PM
It's a game. Assassins and Templars had NOTHING TO DO with the Revolution! Please, tell me you weren't serious.
Oh, and BTW, he did not want to kill his father, he wanted to believe they were seeing eye-to-eye, but, in my opinion, his father jacked that up when he tried to turn Connor against Washington, forgetting that he too knew of the Patriot's plans for Connor's people.
No, We started the Revolution...Nothing to do ?? didn't you play the game ?? didn't you see our very own Charles Lee starting the Boston Massacre ?? Connor may not have wanted to kill his father, but who started attacking lethally in their battle ?? that`s right.........Connor

Assassin_M
02-11-2013, 07:52 PM
Also, if his father had ever cared, then why was he so keen to kill Connor? Had Connor not been given a chance to say last words in the Missing Supplies mission, HE WOULD BE DEAD!!! Answer that, you Templar fans out there.....
Haytham never wanted to kill his son..

Read his Journal (AC forsaken) he loved his son

Assassin_M
02-11-2013, 07:52 PM
I'm a Muslim
We`ll still control you

ktyoung
02-11-2013, 08:05 PM
No, We started the Revolution...Nothing to do ?? didn't you play the game ?? didn't you see our very own Charles Lee starting the Boston Massacre ?? Connor may not have wanted to kill his father, but who started attacking lethally in their battle ?? that`s right.........Connor

You do realize that the game is PURE fiction right? It's based off history, not ACTUAL history......

Assassin_M
02-11-2013, 08:09 PM
You do realize that the game is PURE fiction right? It's based off history, not ACTUAL history......
You don't know do you ? It........is all................REAL !!

We will have our new world and you`ll do nothing about it cause you think we`re fiction.....I EXIST......and so do my children

ktyoung
02-11-2013, 08:10 PM
Oh I detect sarcasm......
And I'm sure your children are very real.

Assassin_M
02-11-2013, 08:12 PM
Oh I detect sarcasm......
More like role play:p


And I'm sure your children are very real.
Yes they are....Geebas, Dylan, Kevin, Gloria and Tabshoor

ktyoung
02-11-2013, 08:13 PM
My point is the events of the entire series pertaining to the protagonists were fiction. Yes the Templars and Assassins were real, but that was God only knows how long ago.......even if there are still traces of them hidden in today's society. I know this dude. I spent quite a lot of my free time researching this stuff, so don't tell me what is and isn't real....even if you're playing around....

Assassin_M
02-11-2013, 08:16 PM
My point is the events of the entire series pertaining to the protagonists were fiction. Yes the Templars and Assassins were real, but that was God only knows how long ago.......even if there are still traces of them hidden in today's society. I know this dude. I spent quite a lot of my free time researching this stuff, so don't tell me what is and isn't real....even if you're playing around....
Oh I`ll tell you what`s real and what`s not...

I`ll be controlling you very damm soon..

You`re actually a plant....grown from the farms of Narnia, but you escaped to earth eleventy two years ago....BELIEVE IT

d4st4n96
02-11-2013, 08:18 PM
I'm a ''hymbrid''
Don't get me wrong, I like to be an assassin, but 'templar too :)
I stand by myself, don't care about the creed, and the ''templars''...

I_Leave_No_Trace
02-11-2013, 08:24 PM
More like role play:p


Yes they are....Geebas, Dylan, Kevin, Gloria and Tabshoor


your attempt to troll is horrible.

4/10 for the effort because you almost got me.

Assassin_M
02-11-2013, 08:28 PM
your attempt to troll is horrible.

4/10 for the effort because you almost got me.
Good for you..

Thanks for your time...Ill be having all of it soon

Kaschra
02-11-2013, 08:46 PM
I have finally picked a side.


I... am a minstrel.



Minstrels are the best, they have the power! Nothing can stop them, they are invincible.
If you try to resist, they will ****ing destroy you with their music. Neither assassins nor templars got anything on that! Yeah!

Snakbarr
02-11-2013, 09:44 PM
Neither. I'd be working for Erudito. They seem to have a sense of humour and I'd of thought they could sort me out with free wi-fi..

sasukeuchiha50
02-12-2013, 05:07 AM
Hidden Blade and Ideology.

I-Like-Pie45
02-12-2013, 06:29 AM
I have finally picked a side.


I... am a minstrel.



Minstrels are the best, they have the power! Nothing can stop them, they are invincible.
If you try to resist, they will ****ing destroy you with their music. Neither assassins nor templars got anything on that! Yeah!
Except there's nothing to stop Ezio from gassing out your eyes with his smoke, stabbing you through the chest while he baits you with coin, bashing in your skull with a broom, etc.

The orphans of NY and Boston, now that's some legit invincibility.

pirate1802
02-12-2013, 06:44 AM
Templars, because Assassins may be cool, and templars be made to look cruel, but at the end of the day the Templar ideology is the practical one, whereas Assassins chase dreams (and never succeed.)

Actually my worldview is quite cynical. As Haytham puts it, there will always be people who will rule others, oppress them. Sometimes they do it in openly, sometimes under the veil of democracy. True freedom, by and large, doesn't exist. So, better the ruling party be someone who is guided by the greater good, than someone who only has petty selfishness in view.

"Freedom can be messy, but it is priceless." Ezio said, but I don't agree with him. He seems to consider freedom sacrosanct, above all. I don't. If freedom doesn't take us to a better future, embroils us only in mindless wars and impedes our progress with misguided moralities, what good is it? As Amhet succinctly replied, "And when the lights of civilizations go out, Ezio Auditore will stand tall above the ruins and claim: Yes! I stayed true to my creed." So true. I'll take a cruel but practical philosophy over a humane but ultiately impractical and chaotic philosophy any day. That's why, if given a choice in real life I'd join the Templars.

That said, I'll also add that what Abstergo is doing, mind-controlling people? That's going too far in the other direction. The Colonial Templars are the ones I identify most with. They understand the Templar philosophy, realize the need of a strong and unified guiding force, without feeling the need of breaching your mind and turning you to a drone. Templars, or my ideas of Temmplarism atleast, best function on a global and political level, working behind the shadows, rather than a personal, mental level.

Assassin_M
02-12-2013, 06:49 AM
Templars, because Assassins may be cool, and templars be made to look cruel, but at the end of the day the Templar ideology is the practical one, whereas Assassins chase dreams (and never succeed.)

Actually my worldview is quite cynical. As Haytham puts it, there will always be people who will rule others, oppress them. Sometimes they do it in openly, sometimes under the veil of democracy. True freedom, by and large, doesn't exist. So, better the ruling party be someone who is guided by the greater good, than someone who only has petty selfishness in view.

"Freedom can be messy, but it is priceless." Ezio said, but I don't agree with him. He seems to consider freedom sacrosanct, above all. I don't. If freedom doesn't take us to a better future, embroils us only in mindless wars and impedes our progress with misguided moralities, what good is it? As Amhet succinctly replied, "And when the lights of civilizations go out, Ezio Auditore will stand tall above the ruins and claim: Yes! I stayed true to my creed." So true. I'll take a cruel but practical philosophy over a humane but ultiately impractical and chaotic philosophy any day. That's why, if given a choice in real life I'd join the Templars.

That said, I'll also add that what Abstergo is doing, mind-controlling people? That's going too far in the other direction. The Colonial Templars are the ones I identify most with. They understand the Templar philosophy, realize the need of a strong and unified guiding force, without feeling the need of breaching your mind and turning you to a drone. Templars, or my ideas of Temmplarism atleast, best function on a global and political level, working behind the shadows, rather than a personal, mental level.
You make your daddy proud, Son... :`)

pirate1802
02-12-2013, 06:53 AM
The one who convinced me is Haytham. You can be a Templar AND share Assassin Ideals and Principles.

Also, this. :)

RinoTheBouncer
02-17-2013, 05:01 PM
Haytham was a Templar yet he shared many Assassin characteristics and beliefs, the problem is when he was with Connor, interrogating people, he just simply killed them like they had no life, like they're not worth anything despite them confessing to him to be spared. That's what makes me reject the Templars. It's like with Vidic, they used Clay and Desmond, if the study ends, they kill them, if they want to leave, they kill them, it's like they decided to force somebody into being their lab rat and they also forced them into giving their lives.

What kinda thing justifies this? Why should anybody be taken and forced to do something and then killed just because someone thinks it's the right thing or that's for the greater good? with Emilio, with Cesare, with Al-Mualim with many others, they just don't value ones life. I'm not saying Assassins tickle you if you don't share their beliefs instead of killing you nor they're the angel of mercy, yet at least they share the belief that the human life is worth something and that telling the truth to the people is their aim, not keeping them deluded or kept in the dark from what's going on.

I believe nobody deserves to decide what others know and not know, nobody deserves the right to determine what people should and shouldn't know and do. I think there should be basic rules like don't kill, don't steal, don't rape but the rest should be okay as long as you don't hurt anybody.

It's okay to be or not be religious, it's okay to be gay, straight or bisexual, it's okay to drive and park where you want as long as you don't cause obstruction or a car crash, it's okay to dress in modern or old fashioned style, it's okay to love or hate football, no one should have the right to attack you for what you love and practice as long as you're not hurting anybody. Those are the rules, the rest should be just free for people to do however they want to because they can choose what they want as long as it's hurts no one simply because it's non of anybody's business.

I just stated some things, maybe not all of them are being forced on people but I'm just saying that from complex to simple things, people deserve the right to determine what they want and not someone else plans it for them, again, as long as they don't hurt anybody.

Spider_Sith9
02-17-2013, 07:55 PM
The question is: What will happen during a revolt? Will your armies kill the those who fight for free-will? The rioters in the streets for example. It's things like these that pisses me off about you Templars. It's the same thing Izanami wanted in Persona 4 and The Reapers' perspective on free-will.

I will be standing there, amidst the chaos only to find a Templar forcing me to conform/join them. I will say no. And I will be killed. Nothing more. Nothing less.

That said, I'm a rather weak-willed individual IRL and I've experience alot of bad things that has been....traumatizing to me recently. Words frequently hurt me. My conflicts with Pedro is an example. This is no different. That said, I'm starting to lack faith in the Assassins finally. Granted I do not align myself with either side and prefer neutral (Singleplayer but also plays Multiplayer and can see both points) but this makes me feel like the Assassins really are fighting a lost cause...no...a cause that was nonexistent. Maybe the Templars will take over in Assassin's Creed 6/9?

And to the person above who mention Haytham brutally killing people, keep in mind the general character if a Knight Templar in fiction are characters who do things that are questionable but well-intentioned. They will stop at nothing to do achieve their goal.

Th3Aw3som3On31
02-17-2013, 08:12 PM
I'm somewhere inbetween. I don't fully agree with either sides ideals.

SuperLoboMau 25
02-17-2013, 08:18 PM
Templars are right in a point, people never are really free, then a thought control to good is better than a false freedom that leads to destruction. However there are good templars like Haytham or Al Mualim and bad ones like Rodrigo Borgia, for this reason isn't good let anyone use a power like piece of eden to get absolute control, even that some "rulers" would be good guys others could immerse the world in slavery. Then I think the assassin's creed better, but not perfect.

I hope we play with a templar again in a future AC, Haytham is pretty cool.

Th3Aw3som3On31
02-17-2013, 10:49 PM
Templars are right in a point, people never are really free, then a thought control to good is better than a false freedom that leads to destruction. However there are good templars like Haytham or Al Mualim and bad ones like Rodrigo Borgia, for this reason isn't good let anyone use a power like piece of eden to get absolute control, even that some "rulers" would be good guys others could immerse the world in slavery. Then I think the assassin's creed better, but not perfect.

I hope we play with a templar again in a future AC, Haytham is pretty cool.

I agree with your point about the power, and the good leaders vs evil ones. Which is why I fully am neither infavor completly of one or the other. I do too hope that we will get to play as another Templar. It was very intriguing.

snowball111222
02-17-2013, 11:29 PM
Welllll I think that the Templars are definitely right in saying that there needs to be some form of order in the world but I think it's their means of establishing this order that would put most people off.

RinoTheBouncer
02-18-2013, 08:44 AM
Welllll I think that the Templars are definitely right in saying that there needs to be some form of order in the world but I think it's their means of establishing this order that would put most people off.

I guess that's pretty much it. There's a goal, an aim, a noble one maybe but the means of making it come true just put everybody off. You don't just burn somebody's wound to disinfect it, you use alcohol or any medical disinfectant and anti-bacterial. With the Templars it feels like "If someone is carrying a contagious disease, kill him and prevent it from spreading". No, sorry. That's not the way to treat things.

MasterAssasin84
02-18-2013, 02:56 PM
Both sides share the same goal but i would be inclined to say that the Templar order is not one of nobility

The Assassins Kill those who kill others and the Templars will Kill anyone who they consider and obstacle to their goals! wether direct or in direct .

The templars ideals of order and structure and direction promote peace and stability but at what cost ? our freedom of speech our humanity and what would the implications be if
one was to break these ideals because they did not share the same view ?

The Assassins are promoting peace and stability through freedom and choice - Ezio explained in Revelations that the Creed is not doctrine and that every man and woman should have the right
to choose their paths and regardless of what consequences their choice will bring them wether good or bad we are the shepards of our own destiny, i would like the freedom to choose rather than restrict myself to a set of belifes that are indoctrinated, the templar way is a sure fire way of killing democracy.

So on these basis i am Assassin !!! Nothing is true everything is permited .

vZ POiSoN vZ
02-18-2013, 04:32 PM
I would have to say Assassin. This is because both sides want peace, yes. However, the Templars believe that in order to gain that peace they must control people and rule through complete dominance. Which in theory sounds safe but if history has taught me anything, it is that people do not like being controlled and this will eventually lead to conflict, ending that peace. I believe that the Assassin way, giving everybody the freedom to make their own choices, would also lead to violence, let's face it, humans will be humans and will therefore fight eventually haha.

But I think the Assassin way would lead to less conflict overall and that it is only right to let people make their own mistakes and find out things on their own, not to be controlled and told what to do to be safe. So, Assassin for me it is! :D

rupok2
02-18-2013, 04:33 PM
Assassin goals are more like fairy tales more than anything. Assassins exist because of templars and are just hindrances. The first assassins weren't true assassins so they don't count (meaning before altair took over).

Modern day templars are not like the Borgia's which all templars agree to be the "dark times" of the order. I agree with modern day templars especially Haytham. Humans will destroy the world with true freedom thus we need control. If you really think about it, humans barely have any control nowdays anyways. Most people are brainwashed by the media and the gov't is run by capitalists. The people running countries now only do it for self interest, you think obama and 90% of other politicians give two ****s about the country? So what would you rather have? These people running the world?

Or a ORDER of people who genuinely care about mankind's progression and peace running the world? The key word here is "progression" meaning the templar's won't destroy the fundamental ways that society progresses, meaning education, investment, businesses won't be thrown away. Rather the templars will use the pieces of eden to control human animalistric and barbaric traits, keeping them in check. I think the templars know what works and what doesn't, communism has been tried before and I think most people associate templars with communism/ North Korea type stuff. I really doubt templars are trying to do that because those things do not bring peace, prosperity and the advancement of the human race. I think when templars say they want to "control", they want to stamp out the things that still make humans just animals with a brain.

Thats the kind of goals modern day templars are trying to strive for it seems, if thats the case then I am all for being a templar.

Spider_Sith9
02-18-2013, 09:24 PM
If this is the case, will you permit their questionable deeds? Getting to there goal? They do things that range from questionable to "Jeez! What's wrong with you?!" territory.

Humans are the real monsters. But when they have Ambition or God Complexes... it scares me even more than what the Humans would do when they have freedom. What if I was linked to something the Templars wanted and they wanted have reach their end but I said no? I'd be dead. The Templars are no different than the Assassins but their means is more practical. If the world is so terrible that we need people reaping Order by force.

Those in this thread who wants follows the Templars ideals very strictly makes it impossible for those to live their lives. No matter what, they will be involved in the conflict. And they will hate it. But the Templars wouldn't care. YOU wouldn't care. What will happen when chaos ensues? Will you use your Apple and then turn it off in mere minutes when everyone is calm?


Scratch that! I just realized that while free-will is a good thing to have and order shouldn't be forced upon you, Assassins really are fighting for a fantasy. Why fight? Wouldn't it be just easier to....give in? :( They will lose anyway. And like everyone else, I will be watched as you will. :)

driow123
02-03-2015, 07:09 PM
I'm a Templar.
May the Father of Understanding guide us.


So long as you continue to preserve freedom, we`ll always be at odds.....and so long as we exist, you`ll continue to hunt us...

We are enemies, one of us must completely remove the other from existence....


Indeed, fellow Templar.
May the Father of Understanding guide us.

EmptyCrustacean
02-03-2015, 08:38 PM
This just goes to show you how messed up the grey area thing has become.

In the fiction, the latter side approved of and sponsored slavery, Nazism etc, and in the present day it's seeking to secretly infect people with mind control technology! I can see why it might be interesting to add a little "sympathy for the devil", but it's gone a bit too far.

Preach it! It makes me sick that this is even a question. Back in 2008 this wouldn't even be a discussion. I am reminded of a good quote:


you're playin' for the bad guys. Every day you sit behind your desk and you learn a little more how to accept the world the way it is. Well, here's the rub. Heroes don't do that. Heroes don't accept the world the way it is. They fight it.

This sums up the Templars. They are not the solution; they are the problem. Assassins fight every day to make the world a better place. They inspire hope.
Tempalrs' ideology doesn't even work on a logical level since, if humans are easily corrupted and stupid, then surely they too are prone to this and so cannot be trusted to rule the world.

kingo757
02-03-2015, 08:55 PM
Assassin's are the way to go. Remember all that Templars want is money and power and with too much of both will cause havoc and death for all that oppose. Assassin's make sure that money and power don't fall into the wrong hands, the assassin's are like the guardians of Earth protecting the civilization from the evils of HELL.


Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted

"To say that Nothing is True is to realize the foundations of society are fragile and we must be the sheppards of are own civilization"

" To say Everything is Permitted is to understand that we are the architects of are actions and we must live with are conscience with either glory's or tragic"




"Work in the dark to Serve the light"

DemonLord4lf
02-03-2015, 09:00 PM
This poll needs to be updated since we now have Juno and her group out. And what about a fourth group? One all about absolute freedom. I'll be the one for the absolute freedom. Forces For Chaos for the win :D

Fatal-Feit
02-04-2015, 12:32 AM
That's prejudice.


Assassin's are the way to go. Remember all that Templars want is money and power and with too much of both will cause havoc and death for all that oppose.

What the Templars want is peace and stability. Money and power are the reality of achieving said goal.


Assassin's make sure that money and power don't fall into the wrong hands, the assassin's are like the guardians of Earth protecting the civilization from the evils of HELL.

Yeah, and vice versa.

ACHILLES4713
02-04-2015, 12:13 PM
I would lean more towards the Assassins, but I do agree with the Templar's way of thinking to some extent. I feel on the whole, people don't always make the best decisitions for themselves or other people, so its important to educate and guide people. But having the noble goals of peace, freedom, free-will etc, is important as well. The Assassins may not always be successful in these endeavers, but that's not the point. The whole point of having ideals is that its something to strive for. And even if we fail, the mere act of striving towards a goal is what makes us better. To BE better. We do this in the hope that one day, humanity will have learned from its mistakes and will be able to coexist in peace. This is why we fight.

Short version: I'm an Assassin with a dash of Templar.

Hans684
02-04-2015, 04:37 PM
This might be sound strange but my side is with the people both orders fight for(voted Templar), it's the end result that matters the most. What is the best for the people? Freedom or control? That should depend on the situations. Take William Johnson, if he had become land owner over the natives land, then they wouldn't be forced out. They'd still live their lives in their land but with protection, a reason to not force them out. If someone tried they'd have to go trough William and the Templars. But Connor messed that up and they where driven out. Then we have good ol' Washington who would attack them again and again if it meant independence for the colonies and it's all done in the name of freedom, he did once and tried again, why would the third time be any different? How free was it actually? It's more like change of government, it went from being British controlled to an independent country with it's own way of control that ironically still has slavery. And what's the aim of this free country? Their not a group like the Assassins or Templars who has a clear goal. It's random people in chaotic control with no clear goal.

DemonLord4lf
02-04-2015, 09:56 PM
This might be sound strange but my side is with the people both orders fight for(voted Templar), it's the end result that matters the most. What is the best for the people? Freedom or control? That should depend on the situations. Take William Johnson, if he had become land owner over the natives land, then they wouldn't be forced out. They'd still live their lives in their land but with protection, a reason to not force them out. If someone tried they'd have to go trough William and the Templars. But Connor messed that up and they where driven out. Then we have good ol' Washington who would attack them again and again if it meant independence for the colonies and it's all done in the name of freedom, he did once and tried again, why would the third time be any different? How free was it actually? It's more like change of government, it went from being British controlled to an independent country with it's own way of control that ironically still has slavery. And what's the aim of this free country? Their not a group like the Assassins or Templars who has a clear goal. It's random people in chaotic control with no clear goal.

No they have a goal. At least Modern Day Assassins do. They promote Democracy and what not.

The Assassins you described sound more like my fan group Forces For Chaos. No clear goal in mind, just mindless chaos.

Hans684
02-04-2015, 10:01 PM
No they have a goal. At least Modern Day Assassins do. They promote Democracy and what not.

The Assassins you described sound more like my fan group Forces For Chaos. No clear goal in mind, just mindless chaos.

I was not talking about the Assassins, they have a goal.

brotersinarms
02-04-2015, 11:04 PM
The Templars are pure evil. Hitler was the perfect example of a "Templar".

Namikaze_17
02-04-2015, 11:15 PM
The Templars are pure evil. Hitler was the perfect example of a "Templar".

The Templars are not pure evil. Have you seen Torres? Pitcairn? Johnson?

And Hitler wasn't a Templar, he was merely a puppet that was used to our advantage.

EmptyCrustacean
02-04-2015, 11:47 PM
The Templars are not pure evil. Have you seen Torres? Pitcairn? Johnson?

And Hitler wasn't a Templar, he was merely a puppet that was used to our advantage.

A Jew slaughtering bigot that hated disabled people and anybody that didn't fit his idea of pure. You're an idiot. :rolleyes:

brotersinarms
02-04-2015, 11:53 PM
The Templars are not pure evil. Have you seen Torres? Pitcairn? Johnson?

And Hitler wasn't a Templar, he was merely a puppet that was used to our advantage.

Well Fascist theory goes to the Templar theory right? Certainly Mussolini, or Hitler felt the same way, that in some ludicrous way, they were doing things for the better good, through "Order", and in that "Order" becomes greed, hate, and war, no matter what they thought their endgame was. To them, these were realities that would be foolhearted to believe differently. They were needed to bring about a civil moral society....that is as long as they were the one's pulling the strings. And that goes to the narcissism and evil nature Fascism, or be it the Templars.

My own forefathers with the Slave Trade and the genocide of the American Indian goes to that point as well. Benjamin Franklin famously quoted...

"Those who would forfeit their Liberty for the sake of Security deserve Neither".

However, actions being taken at the time, as far as struggles in that Freedom were contrary to the Constitution written at the time, in lieu of the Slave Trade and other matters. In Rogue, it's factually correct we fought under the Crown in the Seven Years War 20 years prior, against the French and Indian Tribes, Washington of course, from a factual standpoint under the command of his looked up to mentor Braddock. Our Forefathers were also "Free Mason's", that themselves ran things rather secretively.

So, an argument can be made about "hypocrisy", and certainly that's the case (even today). And yes, the thought of Freedom does bring about human fallabilties, if there are no laws that are created to regulate such behaviors. Certainly "Anarchy" doesn't work (as we saw in the Nassau example, as well as our Wild West that Manifest Destiny looked to address), but there's a difference between a civil free society, and a bunch of elites running the worlds empires, or the world itself, which of course was the Templars goal.

I mean there are conspiracy theorists, who do believe that a relative few secretive elites are running the worlds affairs. I think the film "Obama Deception" and those like Alec Jones are people of that belief in regards to the Bilderberg Group and others. I don't share those views necessarilly, but i think that theory is what makes this game, and its stories as fascinating as they are.

DemonLord4lf
02-05-2015, 02:03 AM
I was not talking about the Assassins, they have a goal.

Oh my bad. I misread your post.

Hans684
02-05-2015, 05:58 AM
The Templars are pure evil. Hitler was the perfect example of a "Templar".

He's a puppet and not close to a true Templar, it's like saying people like Abbas, Al Mualim or Achilles isn't corrupt but "true" to the cause when they clearly isn't. And Hiler most likely never knew of the Templars, like puppets usually do. They don't know they are used. And even if he was a Templan, then that would make that Templar order bad during that time. It's like saying all Muslims are terrorist, it's wrong no matter how much you twist and turn it.

DemonLord4lf
02-05-2015, 06:15 AM
He's a puppet and not close to a true Templar, it's like saying people like Abbas, Al Mualim or Achilles isn't corrupt but "true" to the cause when they clearly isn't. And Hiler most likely never knew of the Templars, like puppets usually do. They don't know they are used. And even if he was a Templan, then that would make that Templar order bad during that time. It's like saying all Muslims are terrorist, it's wrong no matter how much you twist and turn it.

Hitler was a puppet. Henry Ford was a Templar agent, which is odd seeing how he was always fighting those who were in charge and believed in competition.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Adolf_Hitler

The_Kiwi_
02-05-2015, 08:48 AM
Hmmm, I wonder :rolleyes:

DemonLord4lf
02-05-2015, 08:54 AM
Hmmm, I wonder :rolleyes:


Oh i know this! You're an assassin :D

phoenix-force411
02-05-2015, 09:04 AM
Templar. Haytham's harsh words are cruel but they have their truths. Freedom is an illusion.

king-hailz
02-05-2015, 10:12 AM
I choose assassins... because I believe the freedom thing about 40% more than the control thing... I think we need 70% freedom with 30% control... or something like that...

What I think we all need is freedom of the truth.

The_Kiwi_
02-05-2015, 01:25 PM
I choose assassins... because I believe the freedom thing about 40% more than the control thing... I think we need 70% freedom with 30% control... or something like that...

What I think we all need is freedom of the truth.

What is this truth?

Namikaze_17
02-05-2015, 02:10 PM
Templar. Haytham's harsh words are cruel but they have their truths. Freedom is an illusion.

Then we welcome you into our fold, brother.

May the Father of Understanding guide you. http://oi59.tinypic.com/1498efq.jpg

Shahkulu101
02-05-2015, 02:23 PM
To all those that are 'Templar's'.

Would you be willing to give up all your free will right this moment? Or ever? Because the reality is you wouldn't be able to live your life. Too many don't seem to acknowledge the severity of a totalitarian society.

I'd be a Templar, but I'd hate to live under their rule. This whole Assassin or Templar stuff is just a bit of fun I know, but you have to be a bit mad if you want to be controlled, monitored and have no freedom over your actions.

kingo757
02-05-2015, 08:56 PM
That's prejudice.



What the Templars want is peace and stability. Money and power are the reality of achieving said goal.



Yeah, and vice versa.

Yeah your right the Templars do want peace and stability, but only to there own satisfaction and by there rules, and if the Templars dont get there way, Oh watch out here comes a war!

What the Assassin's do is try to prevent war and protect the innocent from evil leaders. Templar or not if the line of life bends, the Assassin's will make it straight again.

Perk89
02-05-2015, 09:33 PM
It's honestly kind of amusing watching people attempt to rationalize the Templar ideology after we've seen what they are in-game.

"GAS CHAMBERS ARE JUST A NECESSARY EVIL MY MAN. CANT GO AROUND HAVIN PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT OPINIONS."


lol.

No man or grouo of men is qualified to run mankind. It is that simple.

Fatal-Feit
02-05-2015, 10:42 PM
Yeah your right the Templars do want peace and stability, but only to there own satisfaction and by there rules, and if the Templars dont get there way, Oh watch out here comes a war!

Just like the Assassins, right? If you don't abide by their creed, here's comes the stabby stabby and revolutions.


What the Assassin's do is try to prevent war and protect the innocent from evil leaders. Templar or not if the line of life bends, the Assassin's will make it straight again.

Again, vice versa.

This isn't the Renaissance anymore.


"GAS CHAMBERS ARE JUST A NECESSARY EVIL MY MAN. CANT GO AROUND HAVIN PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT OPINIONS."

Hahahaha, yeah, just like in Rogue. That sums up the Assassin's Creed.

DemonLord4lf
02-05-2015, 11:36 PM
The only one's that truly win in this conflict are those of us who enjoy the Chaos that it causes :D So keep fighting you assassins and templars. The fun has only just begun. Muwhahahahaha

mikeyf1999
02-05-2015, 11:38 PM
Yeah your right the Templars do want peace and stability, but only to there own satisfaction and by there rules, and if the Templars dont get there way, Oh watch out here comes a war![/B]

I'm not even going to begin the irony of this part

Hans684
02-06-2015, 06:09 AM
In case someone screams bad guys and the gray eara is forced.

Desmond: But they are the "bad guys," right?

Lucy: If there's one thing I've learned since I started working here, it's that there's no such thing. It's all so relative. I guess the best way to explain it is... what they want is good. But the way they're going about it... It's bad, really bad.

That's in 2007 and the first game, the cartoon bad guys is the thing that was forced.

DemonLord4lf
02-06-2015, 06:17 AM
In case someone screams bad guys and the gray eara is forced.

Desmond: But they are the "bad guys," right?

Lucy: If there's one thing I've learned since I started working here, it's that there's no such thing. It's all so relative. I guess the best way to explain it is... what they want is good. But the way they're going about it... It's bad, really bad.

That's in 2007 and the first game, the cartoon bad guys is the thing that was forced.

From the first AC? Because she would later turn out to be a Templar spy. So if they had planned that from the beginning, not sure if they did, she would say something like that.

Hans684
02-06-2015, 06:32 AM
From the first AC? Because she would later turn out to be a Templar spy. So if they had planned that from the beginning, not sure if they did, she would say something like that.

Yes from the first. Because only the Assassins tell the truth, people scream Templar propaganda at anything masking them better while believing everything the Assassins say.

DemonLord4lf
02-06-2015, 06:38 AM
Yes from the first. Because only the Assassins tell the truth, people scream Templar propaganda at anything masking them better while believing everything the Assassins say.

I couldn't care less about the truth. I'm all about the Chaos :D, but that being said, its hard to take either side seriously. Kinda like listening to a Democrat describe a Republican and vice versa.

VoldR
02-06-2015, 06:41 AM
From the first AC? Because she would later turn out to be a Templar spy. So if they had planned that from the beginning, not sure if they did, she would say something like that.

Shaun is an Assassin but he still say they themselves are not the "good guys"
With the whole definition of Assassin. :)

I-Like-Pie45
02-06-2015, 06:49 AM
THE TEMPLARS WERE RESPONSlBLE FOR WORLD WAR II AKA THE HOLOCAUST, NINE ELEVEN, THE KENNEDY ASSASSINATION, AND WORST OF ALL THEY KILLED GANDHl'S SWEET SHINY BALD ***

DO YOU JUST LIKE ACTING LIKE AN ANGSTY TWEEN

DemonLord4lf
02-06-2015, 06:50 AM
THE TEMPLARS WERE RESPONSlBLE FOR WORLD WAR II AKA THE HOLOCAUST, NINE ELEVEN, THE KENNEDY ASSASSINATION, AND WORST OF ALL THEY KILLED GANDHl'S SWEET SHINY BALD ***

DO YOU JUST LIKE ACTING LIKE AN ANGSTY TWEEN

O.o


Dude that was awesome...

:D

pirate1802
02-06-2015, 06:58 AM
Shaun is an Assassin but he still say they themselves are not the "good guys"
With the whole definition of Assassin. :)

Also in the intro of Revelations, the narrator asks Desmond 'Don't you feel good, we're the good guys, fighting the good fight!' (or something to that effect), the sarcastic tone and the maniacal laughter in the background makes it obvious this sentence has a meaning opposite to what its face value implies.

Whenever someone complains that 'gray area crap' is forced, I'm forced to laugh hard... it's like someone slept through AC1 and woke only once AC2 came about. Granted, it was not done flawlessly, and I personally would change a lot of it, but one cannot deny that moral grayness was one of the central pillars the franchise's story revolves around.

DemonLord4lf
02-06-2015, 07:03 AM
Also in the intro of Revelations, the narrator asks Desmond 'Don't you feel good, we're the good guys, fighting the good fight!' (or something to that effect), the sarcastic tone and the maniacal laughter in the background makes it obvious this sentence has a meaning opposite to what its face value implies.

Whenever someone complains that 'gray area crap' is forced, I'm forced to laugh hard... it's like someone slept through AC1 and woke only once AC2 came about. Granted, it was not done flawlessly, and I personally would change a lot of it, but one cannot deny that moral grayness was one of the central pillars the franchise's story revolves around.

Besides Juno wants to drag everyone into the "Gray" as she puts it.

VoldR
02-06-2015, 07:17 AM
Also in the intro of Revelations, the narrator asks Desmond 'Don't you feel good, we're the good guys, fighting the good fight!' (or something to that effect), the sarcastic tone and the maniacal laughter in the background makes it obvious this sentence has a meaning opposite to what its face value implies.

Whenever someone complains that 'gray area crap' is forced, I'm forced to laugh hard... it's like someone slept through AC1 and woke only once AC2 came about. Granted, it was not done flawlessly, and I personally would change a lot of it, but one cannot deny that moral grayness was one of the central pillars the franchise's story revolves around.

Cant remember but which part was Shaun's quote from?
Is it 2 or Brotherhood?

VoldR
02-06-2015, 10:43 AM
Whenever someone complains that 'gray area crap' is forced, I'm forced to laugh hard... it's like someone slept through AC1 and woke only once AC2 came about. Granted, it was not done flawlessly, and I personally would change a lot of it, but one cannot deny that moral grayness was one of the central pillars the franchise's story revolves around.

Ok, just checked my timeline video for the present AC2.

Yes that quote is from AC2, hense Shaun's grayness is showing since AC2.
:)

kingo757
02-11-2015, 05:52 PM
I'm not even going to begin the irony of this part


Why not! ;)

dimbismp
02-11-2015, 06:03 PM
Through the games i have realised that the Templar philosophy is far more fitting for me.The assassins are actually anti-Templar,they have no reason to exist.They have been slaughtering innocent throughout history,spreading chaos,while doing nothing to liberate the people.

May the Father of Understanding guide us!

kingo757
02-11-2015, 06:05 PM
[QUOTE=Fatal-Feit;10562542]Just like the Assassins, right? If you don't abide by their creed, here's comes the stabby stabby and revolutions.



Again, vice versa.


So all the time, vice versa. So it basically looks like the Assassins and Templars are preety much the same group of people, but just worded in different ways.

Hey I got an idea! Why dont we Assassins and Templars come together as one and call it a day. Haaahaaaa yeh right what am I thinking like thats going to happen:cool::D

Namikaze_17
02-11-2015, 06:08 PM
Through the games i have realised that the Templar philosophy is far more fitting for me.The assassins are actually anti-Templar,they have no reason to exist.
May the Father of Understanding guide us!

Welcome to our fold, brother.

By the father of Understanding's light, may our work now begin.

http://media.alvanista.com/uploads/timeline_image/2014/09/05/medium_396783_1563108066.jpg

dimbismp
02-11-2015, 06:11 PM
Welcome to our fold, brother.

By the father of Understanding's light, may our work now begin.

http://media.alvanista.com/uploads/timeline_image/2014/09/05/medium_396783_1563108066.jpg

May the Father of Understanding guide us!


(Btw we should elect a Forums Grand Master)

Namikaze_17
02-11-2015, 06:19 PM
May the Father of Understanding guide us!


(Btw we should elect a Forums Grand Master)

May the Father of Understanding guide us.

Normally every member of our fold is a leader of whatever region they choose to support our cause.

But Forums Grandmaster is a role that must be voted upon.

dimbismp
02-11-2015, 06:34 PM
May the Father of Understanding guide us.

Normally every member of our fold is a leader of whatever region they choose to support our cause.

But Forums Grandmaster is a role that must be voted upon.
I will create a thread!

Mr_Shade
02-11-2015, 06:37 PM
:rolleyes:

Namikaze_17
02-11-2015, 06:48 PM
I will create a thread!

No, no.

A thread isn't needed. ^__^

We have meetings on Tuesdays.

dimbismp
02-11-2015, 06:57 PM
No, no.

A thread isn't needed. ^__^

We have meetings on Tuesdays.

Aaaaa i created one already :(

Anyway,if you guys are interested,here is the link: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1010039-Community-Templar-Grand-Master(Templars only ofc)

Hans684
02-11-2015, 07:57 PM
Then someone at some point forum Assassins is going to elect a Mentor.

DemonLord4lf
02-11-2015, 08:48 PM
Then me and my group shall manipulate the hell outta both of them :D

Hans684
02-11-2015, 08:53 PM
Then me and my group shall manipulate the hell outta both of them :D

Juno actually did that, that's how she got Desmond killed.

Namikaze_17
02-11-2015, 09:10 PM
Forgot manipulation, we just send a Cross. ;)

Altair1789
02-12-2015, 03:04 AM
I do sympathize with the templars... a lot. But overall, I'm an assassin because I feel like taking away free will is a bit too... crazy. Either way, not like it matters much in real life since pieces of eden don't actually exist, so that pretty much shatters the templars' plans

RADAR__4077
02-12-2015, 03:46 AM
I was gonna say Templar, but then I thought.

Templars think (and rightly so) that humans are weak by nature, and need a firm hand to guide them.
It makes sense that a group of well-meaning, noble people get their hands dirty for the sake of mankind.

However, they fail to take into account another flaw of human nature. Greed and attraction to power.
If the Templars succeeded, it would only be a matter of time before they were corrupted and became the most tyrannical regime in history.

This would be much worse than the chaos that would result from an assassin victory.

So if tomorrow I was forced to grab my gun and pick a side, I would choose freedom.

DemonLord4lf
02-12-2015, 04:38 AM
Juno actually did that, that's how she got Desmond killed.

She manipulated one guy. I'm talking about manipulating both groups, to continue their war against each other to help further our own desires of chaos.


I do sympathize with the templars... a lot. But overall, I'm an assassin because I feel like taking away free will is a bit too... crazy. Either way, not like it matters much in real life since pieces of eden don't actually exist, so that pretty much shatters the templars' plans

Then join my group. We believe in absolute freedom through chaos :D

pirate1802
02-12-2015, 08:54 AM
This would be much worse than the chaos that would result from an assassin victory.

Dunno man, I mean I respect your view, but from where I stand, unbridled chaos seem as bad. I'm reading the GoT books right now and just reached the part where there is a minor mob riot in King's Landing.
The city is bad under Joffery's rule, yet when the mobs briefly get power to do something, what they engage in is as bad. Rape, murder, you name it. And the same is true in many real-world situation. I'd rather sit in a golden cage than be murdered by mobs, but then.. I'd not even be in the cage, I'd be the one caging other people muhahaha :/

DemonLord4lf
02-12-2015, 09:17 AM
Dunno man, I mean I respect your view, but from where I stand, unbridled chaos seem as bad. I'm reading the GoT books right now and just reached the part where there is a minor mob riot in King's Landing.
The city is bad under Joffery's rule, yet when the mobs briefly get power to do something, what they engage in is as bad. Rape, murder, you name it. And the same is true in many real-world situation. I'd rather sit in a golden cage than be murdered by mobs, but then.. I'd not even be in the cage, I'd be the one caging other people muhahaha :/

You sir are just prejudiced against Chaos >: (

playlisting
02-26-2015, 05:44 AM
Templar. Haytham's harsh words are cruel but they have their truths. Freedom is an illusion.

Really, phoenix-force411? You wish to ignore everything your fratelli e sorelle fought and died for to pursue the Templar ideologies? FINE! ARRIVEDERCI E BUONA FORTUNA.

PS: Didn't even need Google translate :cool:

pirate1802
02-26-2015, 07:35 AM
Really, phoenix-force411? You wish to ignore everything your fratelli e sorelle fought and died for to pursue the Templar ideologies? FINE! ARRIVEDERCI E BUONA FORTUNA.l:

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why joining the Templars is the smarter choice.

Namikaze_17
02-26-2015, 07:37 AM
Really, phoenix-force411? You wish to ignore everything your fratelli e sorelle fought and died for to pursue the Templar ideologies? FINE! ARRIVEDERCI E BUONA FORTUNA.

PS: Didn't even need Google translate :cool:

Even Su couldn't decipher these cryptic words...

The_Kiwi_
02-26-2015, 07:40 AM
Even Su couldn't decipher these cryptic words...

My Italian is rusty, but I got the gist of it
Su's eyes are lucky o.O

avk111
02-26-2015, 08:40 AM
In response to the question,

I think its important to understand common factor between templars and assassins. and that is the human brain.

Did you know that for the past hundred years there has been a compiled list of argument as to which comes first biological reactions i.e. chemicals or thoughts.

Once human kind discovers the origin of thoughts then they can tell for sure how to decide the action of a person. Only then we can decide whether people need a system or total freedom.

Read "the illusion of freewill" by Sam Harris.

Shodaio
06-23-2015, 11:45 AM
Even Su couldn't decipher these cryptic words...

I have seen you throughout this forum quite a bit and I do believe in the Templar order but at the same time I can say the same for the assassins the only true way to achieve both factions goals is to meet in the middle thats why I believe in neither faction but instead I believe in the Assassin Guild of the Templar Order

"Through structure will come freedom and through freedom and individuality will come peace, May the Father of Understanding guide us to this world of structure, to this world of freedom and individuality, to this world of peace"

Namikaze_17
06-23-2015, 12:47 PM
I have seen you throughout this forum quite a bit and I do believe in the Templar order but at the same time I can say the same for the assassins the only true way to achieve both factions goals is to meet in the middle thats why I believe in neither faction but instead I believe in the Assassin Guild of the Templar Order

"Through structure will come freedom and through freedom and individuality will come peace, May the Father of Understanding guide us to this world of to this world of structure, to this world of freedom and individuality, to this world of peace"

Insightful. I enjoy hearing these words from you. :)

Sorrosyss
06-23-2015, 03:14 PM
The Grey is the only way, beloved instruments. :p

Hans684
06-23-2015, 07:02 PM
The Grey is the only way, beloved instruments. :p

I bet it has fifty shades :rolleyes:


I have seen you throughout this forum quite a bit and I do believe in the Templar order but at the same time I can say the same for the assassins the only true way to achieve both factions goals is to meet in the middle thats why I believe in neither faction but instead I believe in the Assassin Guild of the Templar Order

"Through structure will come freedom and through freedom and individuality will come peace, May the Father of Understanding guide us to this world of to this world of structure, to this world of freedom and individuality, to this world of peace"

It's a never ending battle and both sides wants peace, so unity is a requirement regardless of if they want it or not.

AngelDiMaria08
06-23-2015, 08:25 PM
Assassins ofcourse

Shodaio
06-25-2015, 07:57 AM
its hard to sound eloquent when you mess up your first post

ALCAPONE8642
03-10-2016, 09:54 AM
Defiantly a Templar. I agree with the way the go about their business, as they choose to eliminate the threat to peace, and they use control to create peace, which can work if they choose the right person lead government.

Sushiglutton
03-10-2016, 11:04 AM
Defiantly a Templar. I agree with the way the go about their business, as they choose to eliminate the threat to peace, and they use control to create peace, which can work if they choose the right person lead government.


That's a pretty big 'if' :). That a small 'elite' group would consistently choose good leaders without society deteriorating, I don't see it happening.

ERICATHERINE
03-10-2016, 04:16 PM
I'm neither of those choices. I'm an initiates. ^-^

SixKeys
03-11-2016, 01:07 AM
I'm neither of those choices. I'm an initiates. ^-^

Initiates were assassins, though.

ERICATHERINE
03-11-2016, 05:34 AM
Initiates were assassins, though.

Not really. The Assassins gave us the choice to join them or not. If the choice would be mine the initiates never would have joined the Assassins. At first in the lore the initiates had for one of their goals to acknowledge about the Templars and the Assassins to create a database for rich peoples and university, for some exemples. We are not fighters or killers. We only acknowledge.

Here is a video from a fellow initiates member. To start after Desmond's death start at 3 : 45. To start where the Assassins discovered the initiates, because of Rebecca, go to 14 : 10.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmiakTRDf6s

Actually, before the offer of Shaun, we were actually neutral and could not take side. Personnaly, the only side I want to be on (or should I say "stay on") is the Initiates from when we didn't choose to help the Assassins yet. ^-^

VestigialLlama4
03-11-2016, 07:59 AM
At this point I am practically rooting for the Sages...guide me into the gray, my beloved, I am your instrument.

ERICATHERINE
03-11-2016, 04:16 PM
At this point I am practically rooting for the Sages...guide me into the gray, my beloved, I am your instrument.

Just to be sure, are you an instrument of the first will? Because as far as I know they serve Juno's will while they let sages alone. I can be wrong, but the instruments don't give a sh!t (to use my brother's saying) about the sage. They cooperate with each other, if I remember correctly, but one don't serve the other. ^-^

Edit. I just saw "rooting for the sage" and my beloved". You know, there is a difference between rooting for someone and being that person. ^-^

ze_topazio
03-11-2016, 04:44 PM
I'm with the solar flare, killing miserable Humans and Isus since 75000 BC.

ERICATHERINE
03-11-2016, 05:17 PM
I'm with the solar flare, killing miserable Humans and Isus since 75000 BC.

And you failed at your second try because of Desmond, the best Assassin ever. ^-^

Jessigirl2013
03-13-2016, 04:04 PM
Assassins.

I support the ideals for freewill.:cool: