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BlitzPig_DDT
04-07-2004, 07:46 AM
Had to past the post into a reply, see below. lol

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BlitzPig_DDT
04-07-2004, 07:46 AM
Had to past the post into a reply, see below. lol

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BlitzPig_DDT
04-07-2004, 07:47 AM
This is long, and no offense is intended toward anybody, which is why I've singled nobody out. So don't single yourselves out. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
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Quite simply, there are none in this plane-set anymore.

I am not a "super-ace", but I am good enough to be able to BnZ, E-fight, and TnB. And I am something of a plane-wh0re as well. I tend to frequent the P-47s, P-38s, Spitfires, Yak3s, La7s, 190s, 152s, 109s, YP-80, 162, 262s, J8A, Cr-42, and even on occasion a hop in the A6Ms and Ki-84s (including the infamous "C"), along with even more infrequent hops in other types as well.

Having flown all the planes that get kvetched about, as well as against them, I can say quite clearly that they all can be beaten, and, it's not that hard to do. Every plane has 1 or more other planes that can beat it. They ALL have weaknesses. There are no über planes in this set.

All you guys (and there are a lot of you) who go on an on about über-this and über-that (hell, do you even know what "über" means?), ask yourselves, seriously, why you do that. Do you really have problems against these planes? If so, why? Why do others not have the problems? If you feel a plane is better than it "should" be, why do you call it "über" when "overmodeled" is the more accurate term? (assuming you're right in the first place)

Simple logic suggests that if others are not having the problems you all are, it's not just the plane by itself, but rather the combination of pilots in the engagement as well as the plane mix.

Are you just not good enough? Are you trying to beat Ki's down low with a 190 or a Jug in a turn fight? I'd really like to know what the reason is for all this crap going on. All you're doing is killing the game.

The one most often complained about the Ki-84C. Let's look at it.

Complaints are that it can't be beat because of its' overall combination of performance attributes.

I've flown it. And I've flown against it many times. At slow speeds it doesn't turn well at all. It does have good acceleration and as such, dive and zoom, but its' VNE isn't that high, and when you get into the best turning speed range, you black out pretty easily.

Another complaint is its' guns. It has a couple of powerful cannons. Sure. But, let's look at some others
P-39/63 1x37mm
Bf-109 1x30mm or sometimes 1x20mm + 2x30mm
FW-190 4x20mm, or 2x20mm + 2x30mm
La7 3x20mm (which are equal to about 8 190 20mms in this game, but n/m that now)
Hurri (is it t he 2c?) quad Hispano bomber disintegrators
One of the Yaks has a 45(!)mm cannon. (remember that one?)
Me-262 4x30mm
The Spits all have twin monster cannons too (also Hispanos IIRC)

So what is so bad about the Ki-84 C's cannon? They're not unique in their existence, pairing, power, ammo, ROF, or delivery platform performance.

Basically, there is nothing valid to complain about in that regard, that I can see. If you think they are overpowered......IDK, could be, but I haven't studied IJN/IJAAF stuff so I have no idea.
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The second most wanted the Bf-109Z

Not sure where Oleg got the idea of 2 G-6's from (as opposed to Fs), but who really cares? As for performance.... Look let's be painfully honest here. The vast majority of people here are pro-VVS, and/or at the very least, vehemently anti-LW (which is misplaced really, commies are worse, but n/m that now http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif lol). In keeping with that, it's a simple fact that anytime a LW ride is very competitive, there is a ***** storm here over that. This cannot be a coincidence.

It's also amazing how many think that an accurate FM is impossible if it has no actual flight test data. Just as amazing is how so many go from (damn near) worshipping (exaggeration, but only slight) Oleg's capabilities to questioning them once the LW has a serious contender.

You all need to remember that modern design techniques allow aero-engineers to know damn near exactly how the plane will fly, and even make needed changes, before a real version is ever built, much less flown. Clearly the fact of the matter is that it IS possible to calculate an (accurate) FM based on the design alone. Further, Oleg himself has stated that it was "very aerodynamically sound" and that it would be easy to make an accurate FM for.

And finally, since so many also think that, all that aside, it's just too good, let's look at it. I'm no aero-engineer. But even my limited knowledge includes the tid-bit that tip vortices are a major drag producer. Look at 2 109s. 2 Wings, 3 Stabilizers each 10 tip vortices in all. Look at the 109Z 2 wing tips, 2 vert stabs. 4 tip vortices. Also, without the outside h-stabs, there would seem to be less interference drag as well.

Plus, the MGs are deleted from the cowl and the cowl is smoothed out, and the right hand side pit is also smoothed out.

Finally, the center main wing is smaller and should be lighter (less metal) than 2 complete 109 wings. In addition to the deleted MGs this all adds up to Twice the power, less than twice the weight, and far less than twice the drag, of a single 109. (better thrust to weight ratio, far better thrust to drag ratio)

It is not surprising in the least that it can climb and run and accelerate like it does.
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For any plane to be "über" it would have to be absolutely unbeatable (vulching not withstanding).

Let's look at that

Ki-84C
Rope it into a slow, low turn fight. It'll fall out of the sky.
Ride the edge of a black out better than him, especially in a plane that needs less speed to black out, and you'll nail him.

Good planes for this are
Spitfire (almost any of them) They turn with the Ki's at speed, and out turn them when slow, are tough, and pack a hell of a punch
La7 (2 or 3 gun) Like the Spit, will turn with Ki's at speed and out turn them when slow, are as fast as, or faster than the Ki's in top end, and close in climb and dive, only really losing out in acceleration.
Yak3 Again, like the Spit only with a little less firepower and less ammo and more fragile, but a slightly better turner.
Late model 109s Need to spiral climb them, which can be dangerous, but does work.
Any jet too fast for the Ki to compete with (if you're careful)

Also, the newest BP (Bury) is rather adept at killing Ki's with the P-38. I don't fly that A2A, so I don't know his technique, only that it's possible.
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Bf-109Z
Not the best turner, and has fragile engines, and very limited ammo.
Out turn him to beat him, or chase him to the deck then dive on him (they aren't all that fast, maybe 600kph at 0m).

Good planes for this are
La7
Spitfire
Yak3
Ki-84
P-51
FW-190
Ta-152 (last 3 have an excellent dive capability to use against the 109Z)
Any Jet

And if you face a poor pilot who insists on turning, a Zero or even Gladiator would do nicely too. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
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I know I missed many of the "œber-plane dujour"'s, but this is long enough. lol

They all have weaknesses, and all have another plane in the set adept at exploiting those weaknesses. Don't try to drive a nail with a saw. Gotta use the right tool for the job. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

yerpalal
04-07-2004, 07:57 AM
DDT,

Kudos on a thoughtful, well writen, amusing yet informative post.

FW190fan
04-07-2004, 08:09 AM
DDT,

Your post has recieved the coveted "FW190fan's Seal of Approval" award. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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mike_espo
04-07-2004, 08:12 AM
In total agreement! Great Post!

"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

Hawgdog
04-07-2004, 08:22 AM
DeeDeeTee

Bummer, I read excitedly in anticipation of a good flame attack.......but, you're right, and agreeing with a piggie just grinds me...I even checked for typo's, a few of those but hardly worth making a zippo raid.
Dam

ok, yup, correctamundo. My (current) personal favorites are the flame attacks and banning of the japcannon plane (remember the p.11 bannings?) Its insanity, they are very easy to kill, out flank or kill with fairly easy engine or pilot kill.
Who cares, rather WHY do they care?
I am flying more open cockpit lately than all of last year, mostly cause I want the fun back, the 110 and cannon Ki are a blast! So is that little pisser of a jet the salamander. The cockpits are incredible and in a coop, the ONLY way to fly, but these DF servers are almost the same as the original IL2, daisey chains of red, blu,red,blu,red blue. You cant see enough for safety, its a blast!
ok, off the soapbox. Reminds me a tad of the first IL2 patch and the experts of that era.
Great game, put the fun back in dogfight..hmm, put the fig back in dogfight.

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TgD Thunderbolt56
04-07-2004, 08:22 AM
Good post DDT (Yes, I read it all)

I'll interject one comment about the Ki84C. it IS an outstanding ride, but as you pointed out, It's not unbeatable. I fly the P-39 quite a bit and the P63 by proxy as well. The "Cobra" series has some interesting stall characteristics that require a good bit of attention and skill to reap the full benefit; However, I've been able to consistently down Ki's of all flavors with them and still hold with the ideal that "it's not the plane, but the pilot"

S!

TB



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Capt._Tenneal
04-07-2004, 08:30 AM
Good read, DDT, and being an aviation history buff but not an expert your thesis seems logical to me...

I wonder if in the Ki-84c's case, a small part of the reason for it's notoriety among players now is the same bias that Allied pilots had in real life during the war, i.e. that the Japanese couldn't really produce a plane like that. They're supposed to be behind the West technologically. Therefore any plane able to beat Western fighters HAS to be "uber".

Fehler
04-07-2004, 09:13 AM
Well, personally, I cant wait until PF's to come out.

My Corsair is undermodelled because I cant turn fight a Zero! Jimmy Joe Pilot said he outturned a Zero once in HIS Corsair so why cant I?
Jimmy Joe also caught a fish
[-------------------THIS BIG-------------------]

And my 50's should be able to hit him before I can see him in my sights (Anyways) because a 3 foot sniper rifle with the same bullet can shoot 2 miles!

The simple fact is that no plane can be all planes (Except the La-7 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) and you have to learn each planes strengths and weaknesses. Most of the time people lose because of Pilot error(Period) I have seen some fine P47 pilots that were able to do some amazing things in that plane, and it IS the hardest plane in the game to fly and be successful in.

The one thing I have come to understand in this sim is, the more I learn, the more I need to learn. Just when I think I am getting a handle on things, some hotshot comes and hands my arse to me on a platter. That's the great (And frustrating) thing about this game.

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HayateKid
04-07-2004, 09:20 AM
DDT, you're wrong. When I fly the ki-84C suddenly as if by magic nobody can shoot me down.

Seriously, you're right. Fly the right tactic and any plane is beatable.

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi

ElektroFredrik
04-07-2004, 10:43 AM
Very good post DDT, everyone should link to this
when someone yells uber this, uber that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

btw, I believe über means "over" or "above" like
"[insert favored country] über alles"
"[same favored country] above all other"
Just my 0,02 Euro http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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VW-IceFire
04-07-2004, 10:45 AM
In total agreement...I fly virtually everything and can beat virtually anything.

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Eagle_361st
04-07-2004, 11:15 AM
Very nice post DDT, and honestly I agree with you on almost everything. Certainly there are some planes that have certain aspects of their DM and or FM that are questionable. But so what? The actual number of aviation engineers that play this game is very low, so who am I to say what plane is uber and what plane is not. I love this game and will thrust my faithful P-47 at any aircraft at any time knowing that if I am smart I can probably beat him. Thruthfully I like the challenge of flying against better aircraft. I like knowing if I make just one mistake that I will take a ride on the silk elevator. And I don't care what other people want to fly, afterall it is their game that they paid for. As for all of the crying and whinning about uber this and that I will leave that for the engineers and Oleg. Thru all of the years that I have been flying flight sims, all of the years I have been flying my Jug. This sim and the planeset it has has given me the most joy and at times seems to transport back in time and experience these aircraft as best as most of us ever will.

~S!
Eagle
Commanding Officer 361st vFG
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BlitzPig_Ritter
04-07-2004, 11:27 AM
I'll back you up on everything you said there squad mate.

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BlitzPig_DDT
04-07-2004, 11:37 AM
Nice to see I'm not alone.

Perhaps it's the vocal minority at work again?

Eagle, I'm not sure I understood what you meant, but, it kinda looked like you were mixing over/under-modeling with something be "über".

In the sense of "über alles", a plane that was, would be nigh on unbeatable by any other plane, except in cases of extreme lameness on the part of the pilot in said plane, or on a vulch.

That isn't to say, and I didn't mean to imply, that things were perfect. From what I can see, what I have read, and what some of the engineer types here (aero and otherwise), it's pretty clear that some planes are not getting their proper due, and others are a touch too polished up. And many are allowed to shine more than they should have due to the nature of the physics engine itself. And, on top of all of that, there are certain matchups are are unwinnable in certain planes. But that's part of the point of using the right tool for the job.

What I find funny is how circular it all is too. I fear no Ki in a jet. I fear no jet in a P-47. I *do* fear a Ki in a P-47. lol (they seem too fast all the way up to and including 4Km for the Jug to work with...for me at least, so I just break out an La7, Spit, or Yak3 and go after them)

I just get the impression that it's cases like that. Someone is in their favorite plane, can't beat another one, no matter who is flying it, no matter what they do, so it automatically becomes "über". Even in HL I hear just about any and every plane capable of high performance labled as such.

One thing I didn't touch on, some have said that it's prevalence (in this case, the Ki) is evidence of it's n00b/über-ness. When I mentioned the 45mm Yak to someone online a week ago or so, they said, why don't you see them around anymore then? My answer was, it's passe. The Ki is "the new thing". The next powerful plane with killer guns to come along will displace the Ki. Doesn't mean that it will be any "better" or harder to beat though.

But I'm rambling now..... lol

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

Eagle_361st
04-07-2004, 11:45 AM
Well DDT, I was more or less stating that I don't believe anything is uber. I do think in some ways that some aircraft have questionable aspects, but I am not an engineer. So I can't say for sure. I also totally believe that anything can be beaten if you are smart. I kill Ki-s all the time in the P-47, it doesn't matter to me. I know how to fly the Jug and stick to it no matter what anyone wants to throw up at me. Basically I fear no plane, I only fear that I will make a mistake and give that other guy a kill on a platter. But I sure won't go crying that he was flying a uber plane.

~S!
Eagle
Commanding Officer 361st vFG
www.361stvfg.com (http://www.361stvfg.com)
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BS87
04-07-2004, 12:09 PM
I have no trouble downing Ki84s in my mustang, unless ofcourse the pilot of that 84 is a better pilot than me (which happens alot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). But, clearly the Gladiator is overmoddled. Don't even get me started on this uber noob plane!

georgeo76
04-07-2004, 12:53 PM
I can't find any uber planes. Sure some AC seem really hard to shoot down, but as soon as I'm in the pit of those same AC they loose their Uber'ness. So ppl must be cheating!

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Korolov
04-07-2004, 01:06 PM
So does this mean there's no more VVS bias anymore? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Is this the same DDT I used to know? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

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Snow_Wolf_
04-07-2004, 01:11 PM
I personally have nail a Ki-84Ic with tailguns on a Me-110 (killing his pilot) it is not a uber as what people think it is. I totally agree with your post DDT.

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Hunde_3.JG51
04-07-2004, 02:00 PM
Good post. Also people need to realize that some planes were in fact better than others so there will be some that are tough to beat.

And there is no prop plane that an altitude advantage and/or a good wingman can't defeat easily.

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Formerly Kyrule2
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Rivercube
04-07-2004, 03:57 PM
Hi,

good post, i agree with you!

Not the planes are the problem...
i think the damage model and the
weapons are not correct at some planes.

Horridoh

Rivercube

Bastables
04-07-2004, 04:16 PM
I agree, especially after last night: A Mustang pilot believed that the Mustang should be made "better" because he was being outfought by a P47 at plus 6000 metres. Utterly flabbergasted as he then said without a hint of irony that some people unfairly wrote him off as a whiner...

He then went on to be oughtfought in a P47 vs P47 enagament.

Tully__
04-09-2004, 01:23 AM
Bump http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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