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View Full Version : .50's are fine, stop your whining!



XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 09:08 PM
Try it yourself, set 4 PE-2's with emtpy loadout and yourself in a P-47. Set both your cannons and mg's to converge at 200m and start the mission. Settle yourself in right behind the Pe-2's and match speed with them so you end up about 160-200m behind them. Aim for one spot, preferably just ouside one of the engines because if you try for the wing root from the straight 6 most of your rounds fall on the tail. Use all 8 guns at the same point and from what I've seen you need no more than a 2 second burst, usually less than 1!

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 09:08 PM
Try it yourself, set 4 PE-2's with emtpy loadout and yourself in a P-47. Set both your cannons and mg's to converge at 200m and start the mission. Settle yourself in right behind the Pe-2's and match speed with them so you end up about 160-200m behind them. Aim for one spot, preferably just ouside one of the engines because if you try for the wing root from the straight 6 most of your rounds fall on the tail. Use all 8 guns at the same point and from what I've seen you need no more than a 2 second burst, usually less than 1!

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 09:17 PM
"whine"/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 09:19 PM
George Costanza:"I don´t even drink wine,I drink pepsi"

(mostly a sig test tho)


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Message Edited on 07/28/0308:20PM by Superluminal

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 11:42 PM
Try it on fighters - less shots hit then. Fw-190 is a great target to show how hard it is to get critical hits from a level plane - on a high angle though, say 45 degrees from the target, you can get better results. Biggest problem is when you get close.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 12:06 AM
I'm not so sure about this.

Some of my friends in an Allied regiment swear that the 6 x .50's in the P-40 do more damage than the 8 x .50's in the P-47.

Sounds as if something is off. Guess we'll know after the patch.

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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 01:26 AM
I forgot to mention this is with the 08 patch.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 01:53 AM
any truth to stories that you can sink cruisers with .50 cal now?

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 02:20 AM
I don't question the .50cals power. The problem is that they are not concentrated enough. Try this...Come in on a dive and fire at a target on the ground and will see that all rounds hit in a very tight area. But in the air against a fighter this is far from true. Try this now...Get a fighter and have a buddy get the P-47 then have him get into range of his convergance. Use F2 and circle around so you are looking back at him and watch as he fires.


Try some deflection shooting as well and you will find that this is very inconsistant too. You need to do it several times. Now having said all this I will say that on occasions I have fired the 1 sec burst from time to time and tore of some tails and some wings. But the thing here is consistancy.


As for the Russian planes there mgs are very effective and concentrated. This is just not true for the US planes. I been playing this game since IL-2 has came out and I fly the P-47 for hours almost everyday. And if you have flown against me you know that my gunnery skills are fairly good. This is not a whine but the stating of simple facts. I hope its corrected in the final version.


And as for the intial post...you tried this against a bomber which is also a AI plane. And do you fly the P-47 as often as the rest of us who have the complaints? It seems that most of the people who disclaim our comments just hop in one find a little success, then hurry back here to disclaim us. If you fly the P-47 as much as some of us you will see what the complaining is about.


S~
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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 02:44 AM
Yep, you're right. I tought that the P-47 would do a lot of damage; but the truth is that the P-40 seems to have more firepower than the P-47. Why?? We'got to ask Olegg.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 04:07 AM
yeah...come to think of it that might be true...

but for what its worth i can knock the tail off a 109 with about a second long burst from behind with the 8 .50s from the jug...its controversial


Steaks
375th FS

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 05:29 AM
Shifty101 wrote:
- I forgot to mention this is with the 08 patch.
-

Well that's a horse of a different color,

Yes, the patch 50's are much more powerful. The other night I had my P47 sawed in half from a one second burst from another P47. And I haven't had that happen before 08.

So my children, whine for a just little while longer, for soon Oleg shall make eveything right as rain. And a .50cal blessing shall soon fall from the heavens and smite our enemies. And it shall be good.

-Clay

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 06:41 AM
First off the .50cals kill bombers very well, but try it on a fighter like a fw190, i had havok line up many times in a fw190 and i fired all my rounds in it right in the tail, i dont even want to tell you how many times he flew away, for p47 8 .50cals were devestating, have u ever watched gun footage hello from the war, they would bring planes down quickly riping them apart and sending them spiraling down in a ball of flames. And yes the 6 guns on the p40 do alot more damage, its as if the p47 guns damage model is off. The hurricane b with its 12 .303's do more damage than the 8 .50cals on the p47.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 09:53 AM
VMF-214_HaVoK wrote:
- As for the Russian planes there mgs are very
- effective and concentrated. This is just not true
- for the US planes. I been playing this game since
- IL-2 has came out and I fly the P-47 for hours
- almost everyday. And if you have flown against me
- you know that my gunnery skills are fairly good.
- This is not a whine but the stating of simple facts.
- I hope its corrected in the final version.
-

There's nothing strange about the MGs on soviet planes being more effective than those on the US planes.

Apart from the fact that the UB is a (very) little more efficient than the Browning .50, the fact is that the soviet planes have their armament concentrated in the nose and not in the wings (except for the Mig-3 with additional UBs), and, while the armament in the wings offers a wider "fire area", in the nose the fire is much more concentrated on the aimed point.

That's the reason why american pilots who could test both planes, as H. Zemke or C.H. Mc Donald, considered the P-38 to have a far better armament than the P-47, the former (who, apart from that, didn't like the P-38) even being quoted as saying about the Lightning : "I've never seen a such a well concentrated and well disposed armament".

P.S. : I'm not sure but aren't the MGs farther from the pilot on the P-47 than on the P-40, which would explain the fact the latter's armament sometimes appears to be more efficient.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 10:45 AM
There are whiners whining about whiners!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 11:38 AM
Humm, couldn't the FW-190 take just as much punishment (or perhaps even a bit more) than the P-47 (putting all Hollywood propaganda aside)?

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Zayets
07-29-2003, 11:43 AM
Works fine for me although sometimes doing the same stuff I have different results. But that's the beauty of this sim , non - linearity. I remember once that I have mapped 1+2 on the same trigger , downed 4 Pe-8 in flames then lurked a bit in settings and apparently changed one weapon assignement so my x45 could not understand the command. I ws firing only with 4 guns in the Jug! Luckily , I have seen that in an external view.Boyz & girls , damages are very inconsistent in FB , for every plane , not only for the Jug. I remember that once , running out of heavy caliber while driving a F4 , I ended up above a P-40. I saw him coming right under my nose , so I have squezeed the trigger for about a second. Smoke and flames. Pilot had to bail out. Try to do the same thing from dead six , aiming for vital spots. You have to empty all your magazine to see some smoke.
On the other hand , don't dogfight alone while flying the Jug. Even 1vs1 is 90% pure death for the Jug.


Zayets out

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 11:52 AM
VMF-214_HaVoK wrote:
- As for the Russian planes there mgs are very
- effective and concentrated.

That might be related to the Soviet planes mostly
mounting their guns in the nose, which makes
convergence range less of an issue for one (although
your experiment takes that out of the equation) but
also relative roll, and a reduction in dispersion
due to wing vibration. In other words nose guns
_should_ be more concentrated.

- I hope its corrected in the final version.

Is there anything to correct, though, in terms
of the concentration/dispersion issue of wing guns?

Some LW planes have wing guns, so there is a chance
of some level of comparasion here, although the
wing guns are of very different type to the US
planes.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 12:45 PM
Cossack13 wrote:
- I'm not so sure about this.
-
- Some of my friends in an Allied regiment swear that
- the 6 x .50's in the P-40 do more damage than the 8
- x .50's in the P-47.
-
- Sounds as if something is off. Guess we'll know
- after the patch.

Do your pals fire with both 1+2 buttons? each button only fires 4 MGs.

Anyway I tried the P47 lately and I found it's armament extremely powerful + it had a huge spray, which makes it real easy to aim.

With such a huge spray making aim so easy, you would still want to have damage as if all 8 MGs were engine mounted? Has it occured to you that guns in the wings should be much more dispersed than fuselage or engine guns?

Nic

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OK I -->[]

Message Edited on 07/29/0301:49PM by nicolas10

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 11:32 PM
If you guys want to see something really funny, turn off realistic gunnery. Then try using the russian 7.62, 303s, .50 cal, and mk108 on very hard targets. I tried the I-16 against a Fw-190 this way and sawed the wing clean off with a couple bursts from the MGs! Then tried the Bf-109G-6 with mk108 cannon on a yak3, one hit and BAM, exploded into its component atoms. Finally on the P-47, a quick burst from it with realistic gunnery off, and you really see results. Kind of fun this way, if unrealistic.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 11:35 PM
Tsk tsk tsk Kor /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 11:43 PM
What Ivan, you afraid your Mk108 will actually kill something with one hit now? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 11:45 PM
Yeah, it will take all fun outta the game /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
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"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 12:17 AM
You sure didnt say that the one time you dumped all those mk108 into my P-47!

Remember last night when I was flying straight and level, you couldnt hit my I-16 in that one pass? LMFAO!!! (No hard feelings bud!)

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 06:49 PM
MK108s wasnt used for dogfighting anyway only here in virtual combat.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 06:51 PM
VMF-214_HaVoK wrote:
- MK108s wasnt used for dogfighting anyway only here
- in virtual combat.
-
-

What was it use for then?

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
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"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 06:51 PM
But if you hit a fighter with a 30mm gun, you do expect something to go wrong with it... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

And it usually does. Just different results with realistic gunnery off.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 06:55 PM
It does Kor....it does even better in the beta8 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . Finally famous russian wood started to give in LOL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
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"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 07:08 PM
I don't see YOU hosting a server with the "patch"! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 07:51 PM
I've found that the 6 .50cal on the p40 to have more punch than the p47s 8 .50cal do also. but I know the reason why.


The p40s 6 .50cals are concentrated. they hit pretty much on the same spot as to the 8 .50cals of the p47 do a shotgun pattern instead. So you have less bullets hitting the same spot... less damage occures.

Now I hope that in the patch that they will get the 8 .50cals hitting more like the p40s 6 and you'll see that 8mg's are better than 6.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 07:57 PM
On a similar note, while flying a AI planes server, I managed to saw a Fw-190s wings off from about 300m with a half second burst. Pure luck with no gunsight, but...

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 08:35 PM
All of the browning .50 cals seem to suffer the same problems in the game.

The issue of the .50s dispersal being wider due to them being mounted in the wings sounds nice, but it's actually incorrect. Note the P-39s nose .50 dispersal. Sometimes shots come out of those guns at a good 10 degrees vertical angle from the barrel. I wonder how on earth they're synchronised to go through the prop when they're practically firing through the prop hub.

Watching external views at 1/4 time shows just how amazing the 47's .50s are. Doesn't matter if you're doing 250 or 650kmh, loaded with 2000lbs of bombs, a full tank of fuel and rockets, they still spray out all over the place. Watch the tracers, it's ridiculous. The gun barrels are apparently made out of some kind of rubber.

The hilariously overdone aircraft shake - even when firing only 4 of the .50s - makes it very difficult to concentrate fire. I swear that the Hurricane IIC is more stable with 4x 20mm hizookas going off at 300kmh than the 47 is with 4 .40s at 600kmh. And the larger, heavier 20mm shells fire along a straighter and more predictable trajectory too.

I admire peoples attempts to offer some kind of rational explanation for just why things are the way they are in FB1.0/1.08, but it's one of those things that's just flat wrong, period, and no well reasoned explanation is going to make sense of what you will see from external views with time slowed down. Try it sometime. I can only hope that the problems with the 47/39s .50s are fixed before the final patch, similar to the way in which the BF109s nose MK108 accuracy was fixed in the 1.08.