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View Full Version : Tuesday Card Debate - 08/01/2013 - Dark Assassin



Aza404
01-08-2013, 05:05 PM
Dear Champions,

The Tuesday Card Debate is back, and to start it off with a bang, we would like to get your opinion on the Dark Assassin!

http://static2.cdn.ubi.com/fr/games/mmdoc/DAEN.png

Make sure you give us your thoughts on this card, tell us if you use it and how, what you would change and why!

Enjoy,
Aza

N4rc1ss
01-08-2013, 05:46 PM
Pros :
1. It is a good initiative card notably in rush deck
2. If I have some deck control, this card will serve as decoy, opponent in most cases will try to eliminate this card first, even if I have another archer with 3 attack power on the board (both of them has 3 damage differences since this card gives 1 damage to my hero)

Cons :
1. Not viable if opponent has deck control
2. Vulnerable to/can be negated by any early spell (see below)
- Light : Sunburst
- Fire : Fire Bolt, Fire Trap
- Dark : Agony
- Primal : Slow, Teleport
- Earth : Rock wall
- Water : Ice wall
3. In slow games which last more than 10 turns, this card might bite the owner rather than helping them

Conclusion :
- Good card, very low HP and 0 retaliation damage, in my opinion it can be used mostly as a decoy rather than hitter.
- Very destructive if opponent uses only creatures or if they let this monster hit them for 2 rounds in a row or if they are very unlucky, unable to pull the counter for 2 consecutive early turns, which is highly unlikely

Verdict :
A nerf will kill this card (its orange!!), a change in HP or Attacking points will be unacceptable, retaliation damage might be buffed by 1 points, however everyone will disagree with it

zenithale
01-08-2013, 05:53 PM
I don't like too fast rush games, so I don't like this card like some others (Pao and High-Attack-Low-Health-creatures). I would be happy if DA were removed from the game ^^.

Anyway, I would like to know what the meaning of this debates if there is no change of this cards (*cough* Tormentors and Lacerators *cough*).

Zyxess
01-08-2013, 07:24 PM
Short version: getting 4 power on a 2 cost creature is ridiculously dumb.
Long version: from a previous forum thread (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/739976-Dark-Assassin-is-a-no-brainer-antifun-card-and-should-be-modified?p=8812500&viewfull=1#post8812500)...


...
TL;DR
He's way above the power curve of anything else at his cost.
Easily kills most creatures even above his cost - especially with an almost trivial amount of aid.
Often at worst a 1-for-1 with no tempo loss.
Being able to deal with it doesn't necessarily make it good to have.
Possibly warping the entire metagame/format by its mere existence.

He doesn't break the game, but he does make it worse.

TBH most of the epics are (way) too good. This was the one that caused the most frustration by far when I was lower level.

angrydoran
01-08-2013, 09:29 PM
Short version: getting 4 power on a 2 cost creature is ridiculously dumb.
Long version: from a previous forum thread (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/739976-Dark-Assassin-is-a-no-brainer-antifun-card-and-should-be-modified?p=8812500&viewfull=1#post8812500)...


TBH most of the epics are (way) too good. This was the one that caused the most frustration by far when I was lower level.

happy to see that my thread served some purpose

my opinion is the same as before: this card is brutal power creep, make obsolete almost every 1 and 2 cost melee creature and its only purpose is to incentive people to buy more packs in order to get it; it can and will be used in EVERY deck that get 2 in might

my suggestion is to change it and give it some special ability ; something along the lines of blind brother and void wraith, just a little better since its epic. in this way it can be good on some decks and bad on others so we will get rid of the power creep

r3tsa
01-08-2013, 09:40 PM
Epics sure are powerful, but I think you are exaggerating it too much, there are some good decks, that DA doesn't really fit.

RavenLord1994
01-08-2013, 10:33 PM
it's a good card in fast creature decks like inferno rushes or seigfreid decks, where it can become devastating but otherwise it's not efficient enough to fit in every other deck there is and bad use of it will backlash on you as opposed to other epic cards like Atropos or Chaos Imp

Mabufudyne
01-08-2013, 11:16 PM
A balanced card at 2HP. An unbalanced card at 3HP with Siegfried due to the best <2 resource counters (Firebolt, Earthquake) no longer being a counter.

Uraxor
01-08-2013, 11:26 PM
A balanced card at 2HP. An unbalanced card at 3HP with Siegfried due to the best <2 resource counters (Firebolt, Earthquake) no longer being a counter.

this.

apart from that, yeah you need 4 to be able to play them. otherwise the odds of it coming anytime later (=making it a simple line filler) are too high

gamebreaking if opponent has no early answer for it..

leonid1995927
01-09-2013, 01:23 AM
Everything is game-breaking if the opponent has no answer for it.

See: Xorm rush.

MoritzBradtke
01-09-2013, 06:42 AM
Card is balanced, neither too strong nor too weak if u remember it's supposed to be a epic card (:
I don't see the point why people complain about siegfrid DA, do i complain about other +hp heros, undead one with ghosts can be pretty annoying also...no,
not that i play with siegfried i kinda dislike him but u need epics to get a use out of this and epics are hard to get by normally
and there are still enough counters, even for a 4 dmg 3 hp creature...
However i dont meet many siegfried DA beside... after a prison with 4 of em so i woudnt worry about its hp at all :D
Most times u get stalled by siegried and he gets his DA's out u dead anyway!

cucu99
01-09-2013, 10:04 AM
2 Siegfried Dark Assasin with 1 Wolf captian can come in 2nd round (1st round tithe collector, 2nd round campfire, river of gems, DA,DA,Captain), the game should be end here.

hydramarine
01-09-2013, 12:17 PM
A well-balanced card that forces people to put removals in their decks. Some of high tier players dont even use them, because it is usually 1-to-1 or 1-to-2 trade against any deck with removal or AOE spell. That's why Pao Deathseeker most of the times have an edge on him.

Zyxess
01-09-2013, 04:23 PM
A well-balanced card that forces people to put removals in their decks. Some of high tier players dont even use them, because it is usually 1-to-1 or 1-to-2 trade against any deck with removal or AOE spell. That's why Pao Deathseeker most of the times have an edge on him.

Half the spell schools (Primal, Dark, Air) literally can barely interact at 1-3 magic. The other half (Fire, Light, Earth) can 1-for-1 at 1-2 magic, but each still only has a single spell to do so. Water is caught oddly in between. (Combustion and Eternal Winter both put you at 2 magic and taking 4 damage, and aren't really the kind of card you blindly jam into any deck.)
At 3 magic you're probably gimping yourself unless you're playing a control deck or a 2/1/0 or 1/2/0 hero. With the exception of Akane, they all have multiple answers that other heroes don't have.

Most of the AoE spells are trivial to play around, although Earth slightly less so. The fact that they're AoE barely even matters as they trade 1-for-1 early unless someone is just vomiting weenies on the board.


I also stand by that it's format-defining. The high tier players don't use them because the there's a metagame of beating DA + X; the strong decks can play cards that suit their game plan while also beating DA. Blind rushdown is also way overrepresented in general due to card availability, so Earthquake is better than it "should" be. I guess that ends up in the question of what you want to balance for, but I see no good coming out of the game being broken at full card availability.

DA is just eating a ton of collateral damage at the moment. It could be a 6/0/2 and still be a gamble.

hydramarine
01-09-2013, 07:31 PM
DA is just eating a ton of collateral damage at the moment. It could be a 6/0/2 and still be a gamble.
That's what I was trying to get at ultimately. It had many common rarity counters, and it got some more with the Void Rising. And the fact that it kills its owner each turn and retaliate for 0 is sweet as well.

As for the spell schools, I appreciate the fact that only one of them has "2 direct damage", and not the rest six of them. It is certainly a good design with variety, though the balance of it is another matter.

psychobabble.
01-09-2013, 11:09 PM
It's a fine card as a chase epic. It feels great to open one in a booster, it's strong in-game but can be answered in all sorts of ways and will rarely end up getting in a hit on the opposing hero or being better than a 1 for 1. It's strong, it's splashy, it's polarising (as all good chase epics should be), but it's not fundamentally op.

PeterPegasus
01-10-2013, 12:04 AM
I hate the fact that it's of epic rarity.
I think the devs haven't quite gotten the rarity of some cards right. I'm a Magic the Gathering player, and I appreciate what Wizards has done with their Rare/ Mythic Rare distribution: Not just the "best" cards are mythic, but rather the most epic feeling ones. Granted, DA is unique enough to earn that feeling, but at the same time he's just far away the best 2-drop, not in every deck but still quite ubiqutious. If you own him, that is. He's just so essential to so many decks (basically all Inferno decks, Siegfried, Crag - just to name the obvious ones) - if you don't have him you're seriously gimped. Due to his rarity, card availability is quite the problem... wish he were a rare. Chase card #1 IMO - apart from Throne, I guess.

As others have said, DA is the stone-cold nuts. I agree that he is not OP, only with Siegfried, but still - he'll almost always trade favourably, either 1v2 or 1v1 - best 2-drop in the game. Great design.

psychobabble.
01-10-2013, 05:24 AM
I hate the fact that it's of epic rarity.
I think the devs haven't quite gotten the rarity of some cards right. I'm a Magic the Gathering player, and I appreciate what Wizards has done with their Rare/ Mythic Rare distribution: Not just the "best" cards are mythic, but rather the most epic feeling ones.

WoTC say that, but they lie. Geist of st traft, huntmaster of the fells and falkenrath aristocrat are three mythics which are basically the best creatures in their respective colour combinations. Yes, they also make some stuff like omniscience which are just the crazy awesome effects, but they also stick staple "best cards" at that rarity too.

Truekill_1
01-10-2013, 05:31 PM
now I have 1,000+ cards, but no one DA.
Yes, DA is good powerfull card and i'm wanna get him for many my decks.
But when i played vs DA, offen i have few counter action and offen deactivate him quickly.
Is not break-card, but if we have market-in-game, i guess he cost is too high (~100k gold)

In conclusion i must say, that DA may be need 1 correct:
deal 1 damage to you hero, when DA do any action or deal 1 damage to you hero at start of you supple phase
(some balance if you try to counter DA: block/slow/etc)

Ipwnfour
01-10-2013, 05:52 PM
IMO, DA is too strong for its cost. The fact that he is epic, should not justify its strength. Sooner or later one will obtain one of more copies of DA and they will replace most 2 cost creatures. There are only a few creatures that have as much 'Attack' as DA and they cost at least 2 times as much.

Either reduce DAs 'Attack', or increase its cost, or increase its penalty.

Thanisse
01-11-2013, 04:46 PM
DA seems fine as it is .
low cost high attack doesn't mean that it's too good . that's what an inferno creature could look like if it were factioned (look at imp for example)

to the people saying neutrals shouldn't be so strong . I would say neutra;s should be so weak (see pao hunter)

the only problem I have with this is it getting buffed by siegfried .
haven melees have low atk so don't benefit THAT much from siegfrieds +1 health
this card does . at 4/3 he's almost as good as juggernaut with no extra investment , and I think siegfried should be changed to affect only haven melees .

also , as time passes there will be more answers to him , so not much of an issue over the long run .

Dullheart
01-13-2013, 02:58 PM
Make it unique?
Blanced!

He is to op for a NEUTRAL creature!
Those stats are insane! Neutral monster shouldn't be able to kill tier 3-4 (Faction)Creatures with 1 attack!

In a Haven deck with melee guard or range guard you actualy have to waste good damage spells for a tier2 neutral creature? Really?!
That is insane!

Hydroopl
01-13-2013, 03:36 PM
Make it unique?
Blanced!

He is to op for a NEUTRAL creature!
Those stats are insane! Neutral monster shouldn't be able to kill tier 3-4 (Faction)Creatures with 1 attack!

In a Haven deck with melee guard or range guard you actualy have to waste good damage spells for a tier2 neutral creature? Really?!
That is insane!
You just don't know how to play against haven, do you?

Urthel
01-13-2013, 06:55 PM
Lol this card is far away from op. So many ways to kill it.

hydramarine
01-13-2013, 08:05 PM
He is good, but not in every situation. He practically turns 20 hp heroes into 18, and 18 heroes into 15 or something. His attack is definitely not free. And that's risky. And sometimes I would play something with 4 hp (like Harpy) on 2nd turn instead of him due to risk of removal.

Ipwnfour
01-14-2013, 10:19 AM
Funny how people reply here with "you don't know how to play against DA/Haven....", because one must be an idiot if he doesn't agree DA is fine, right?

Or "DA is fine if you just put X/Y/Z card in your deck", because one can draw those cards on demand, right?


The fact that people are idiots, doesn't make DA fine.
The fact that people can use specific counter cards, doesn't make DA fine.
The fact that DA is epic, doesn't make him fine.

The fact that the game is lost if you don't have an instant answer, makes DA broken/OP/not fine.

leonid1995927
01-14-2013, 01:51 PM
Funny how people reply here with "you don't know how to play against DA/Haven....", because one must be an idiot if he doesn't agree DA is fine, right?
Nope. Nice tone btw.

Or "DA is fine if you just put X/Y/Z card in your deck", because one can draw those cards on demand, right?
The card that DA is instantly shut down by more than a few cards that are viable in their decks is a contributing factor, yes.

The fact that people are idiots, doesn't make DA fine.
No it doesn't.

The fact that people can use specific counter cards, doesn't make DA fine.
Yes it does.

The fact that DA is epic, doesn't make him fine.
Not on its own, it doesn't.

The fact that the game is lost if you don't have an instant answer, makes DA broken/OP/not fine.
No, it isn't. He's fine.

Hydroopl
01-14-2013, 02:03 PM
Funny how people reply here with "you don't know how to play against DA/Haven....", because one must be an idiot if he doesn't agree DA is fine, right?

Or "DA is fine if you just put X/Y/Z card in your deck", because one can draw those cards on demand, right?


The fact that people are idiots, doesn't make DA fine.
The fact that people can use specific counter cards, doesn't make DA fine.
The fact that DA is epic, doesn't make him fine.

The fact that the game is lost if you don't have an instant answer, makes DA broken/OP/not fine.
If it was adressed to me, I assume it was - there are way better combinations than guards/da. For both are just many counters and for christ sake I thought topics about "op guardians" were settled in closed beta. About last sentence - ye, because no one at this moment hasn't any firebolt/mass grave/sunburst etc and they are not completely viable....

Nargott
01-18-2013, 11:57 AM
Assassin 4/2 is very strong and the best creature for 2 cost. Damage to your hero is low price for the attack...4.
In MtG I have played with Sangro***e 3/3 for 2, which require 2 life to untap. Here Assasin has 4(!) attack and deals only 1 damage to hero. Great!

This card will stay in metagame even if it has 3/2, because the're no creatures with attack of 3 for 2 cost (except Hellfire Imp but he requires 2 magic level). Aslo, it's neutral (colourless) creature.

Without counters (Fire Bolt, Earthquake, Word of Light) Assassin is near to be imbalanced creature. And Siegfied (making it 4/3) do it.

leonid1995927
01-18-2013, 05:50 PM
Assassin 4/2 is very strong and the best creature for 2 cost. Damage to your hero is low price for the attack...4.
In MtG I have played with Sangro***e 3/3 for 2, which require 2 life to untap. Here Assasin has 4(!) attack and deals only 1 damage to hero. Great!

This card will stay in metagame even if it has 3/2, because the're no creatures with attack of 3 for 2 cost (except Hellfire Imp but he requires 2 magic level). Aslo, it's neutral (colourless) creature.

Without counters (Fire Bolt, Earthquake, Word of Light) Assassin is near to be imbalanced creature. And Siegfied (making it 4/3) do it.

You shut up.

Do your homework.

Nargott
01-18-2013, 08:33 PM
You shut up.
Do your homework.
Schoolar newbie, I have rate ELO near 1200. Who from us must shut up?

leonid1995927
01-19-2013, 01:47 AM
Is it consistent? Because many people had that rating at some point, including me;

(Last time someone pulled rank on me they dropped by 100-120 elo within the day).

Uraxor
01-19-2013, 03:58 AM
when you play tourney, it's incredibly easy.
you'll get paired up with some low-ELO player, get a crappy hand .. there you go, 50 pts in no time.
plus the whole ELO thing is currently biased a lot by Throne/Prison. once the real decks will kick in, then ELO will start regaining its credibility...

Nargott
01-19-2013, 06:32 AM
Is it consistent? Because many people had that rating at some point, including me;I mean that your "shut up" and "do homework" are unwarranted rudeness. Leave these words for noobs.My ELO is varies between 1130 and 1270, and I don't use imba Prison's decks.

leonid1995927
01-19-2013, 12:28 PM
Very well.

In that case I concede.