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View Full Version : "Life is not a fairy tale and there are no Happy endings"...



avk111
12-22-2012, 04:31 AM
So as the thread title suggest what does Achilles mean in his sentence ? Could have known (spoiler) ..... That fighting for Connor village survival is in vain ? What do you think he was implying to Connor ?

BATISTABUS
12-22-2012, 06:14 AM
Maybe he was talking about the game's ending ;)

pirate1802
12-22-2012, 07:18 AM
^LOL!

But seriously Achilles probably meant this tendency of Connor to save everyone isn't gonna bear fruits.Sometimes you have to make tough choices. Is Connor up to it?
AND The writers probably were foreshadowing the game's ending too!

infamous_ezio
12-22-2012, 08:40 AM
The way I see it, is that it is a direct reference to both connor's and desmond's journey. Connor fights for his people, and in the end, he still didn't get what he fought for, same as with desmond, he fought for what the brother hood stands for, freedom.. did he achieve that? his only choice was to go against what he wanted... connor's end wasn't the ideal happy ending, but that's the thing, life isn't about happy endings

avk111
12-22-2012, 09:45 AM
Well most of what you' said is correct, but can we also say that In term on indoctrination for the Assassins order there should be no alternate motive, meaning Connor achieved success as an assassin , by spreading freedom through the land from the order of the Templars , however his personal motive has failed. To protect his villages land. What do you guys think about this point ?

pirate1802
12-22-2012, 09:48 AM
That's the thing. You can't achieve everything, you can't get the fairytale ending in life. That is what Achilles alluded to, and that's what Connor found out.

AntiChrist7
12-22-2012, 11:03 AM
an assassin's life is far from a fairy tale.

avk111
12-22-2012, 11:24 AM
Well it's hard to compare Ezio into all of this,

I mean before he was an Assassins he fulfilled his motive thus, the fairytale in Ezio eyes has been a happy ending dint you guys think so ?

pirate1802
12-22-2012, 12:19 PM
Ezio did get a fairytale ending compared to others, I mean what did Altair get? Locked up in a stone safe, Connor got his village destroyed, Nikolai got killed by his own son (so I've read..) and how was Liberation's ending?

Unrelated but I think the next AC might just feature Aveline.

cmrggamer
12-22-2012, 03:01 PM
It's interesting because when you go back to play the game you can see just how much foreshadowing for the ending there is. Even starting with Shaun's words when they reach the temple.
I thought perhaps this quote from Achilles reflected his own experiences, and he knew that Connor had a pure and child-like heart and that he would be humble when it came to what he accomplished--not really recognizing how much he did accomplish. I mean, everyone in the game kept saying how naive Connor was, so I guess that also may reflect why he used those words (it just makes me think of something you would say to a child, I guess).
There were several times where Connor would say "It is not enough." And people would tell him that it was impossible, everything that he wanted.

avk111
12-22-2012, 03:53 PM
It's interesting because when you go back to play the game you can see just how much foreshadowing for the ending there is. Even starting with Shaun's words when they reach the temple.
I thought perhaps this quote from Achilles reflected his own experiences, and he knew that Connor had a pure and child-like heart and that he would be humble when it came to what he accomplished--not really recognizing how much he did accomplish. I mean, everyone in the game kept saying how naive Connor was, so I guess that also may reflect why he used those words (it just makes me think of something you would say to a child, I guess).
There were several times where Connor would say "It is not enough." And people would tell him that it was impossible, everything that he wanted.

that is correct he always wanted more than can be accomplished, but how do you think this reflects on the player replay value ? Most players like to replay titles in order to feel they have accomplished something with no loss, however in the AC3 title does what happen give you any sense of replay taste of value ?

cmrggamer
12-22-2012, 11:02 PM
that is correct he always wanted more than can be accomplished, but how do you think this reflects on the player replay value ? Most players like to replay titles in order to feel they have accomplished something with no loss, however in the AC3 title does what happen give you any sense of replay taste of value ?

Well, I guess it kind of depends on the person? For me, I could connect to Connor a lot. I am introverted and I always try to do the right thing, but I also am very critical of what I accomplish. The first time I played AC3 it stayed on my mind for a while because it felt very different to me...it wasn't quite like the other AC games. Personally, I think there are parts of the story that are very well done and other parts that are a little weak or missing something. But, in a way, I'm glad it is this dark and realistic representation. I know a lot of people play games to escape reality, but I kind of appreciate the fact that it feels a little more...real. But maybe that's just me XD

I know that there are other people who haven't gotten bored with the game yet and they've logged in even more hours than I have. My first playthrough was for the story (because I was heading back to school after a break and I wanted to know what happened!) and on my second playthrough I tried to really make it a cohesive experience to see if I felt that it kind of filled some of the gaps in the story.

Assassin_M
12-23-2012, 05:47 AM
I know that there are other people who haven't gotten bored with the game yet
Hi

avk111
12-23-2012, 10:32 AM
Hi

MR.M I sent you many messages on the inbox however there was no response from you, Please do check your inbox and get back to me

Assassin_M
12-23-2012, 10:37 AM
MR.M I sent you many messages on the inbox however there was no response from you, Please do check your inbox and get back to me
Really ?? I didnt get anything...Send again ? So sorry, man

avk111
12-23-2012, 10:38 AM
Well, I guess it kind of depends on the person? For me, I could connect to Connor a lot. I am introverted and I always try to do the right thing, but I also am very critical of what I accomplish. The first time I played AC3 it stayed on my mind for a while because it felt very different to me...it wasn't quite like the other AC games. Personally, I think there are parts of the story that are very well done and other parts that are a little weak or missing something. But, in a way, I'm glad it is this dark and realistic representation. I know a lot of people play games to escape reality, but I kind of appreciate the fact that it feels a little more...real. But maybe that's just me XD

I know that there are other people who haven't gotten bored with the game yet and they've logged in even more hours than I have. My first playthrough was for the story (because I was heading back to school after a break and I wanted to know what happened!) and on my second playthrough I tried to really make it a cohesive experience to see if I felt that it kind of filled some of the gaps in the story.

You got that point correct, referring to myself I do use Video games as a way to escape my reality , when it came down to Connor I love the start very strong all was going great until the end unfulfilling fate of his tribe. I felt like what was I fighting for in the end , tried to throw a petition. To change the ending didn't work, trying to understand it helped, that's why I'm keen on buying the forsaken book. However in the end when you look outside the box, it really isn't that tragic, Connor accomplished more than what he lost, both in his time and Desmonds time.So personally this gives me a replay incentive to reply the hero connor again. Going inside forums and watching YouTube videos people are always ranting Connor didn't do anything , they seem to miss the bigger picture, which would be easily looked at if the story was white and black. What do you think ?

avk111
12-23-2012, 10:48 AM
Really ?? I didnt get anything...Send again ? So sorry, man

Thanks for your reassurance Mr.M, ill send you a private post later during the evening as I'm at work now

Assassin_M
12-23-2012, 10:51 AM
Thanks for your reassurance Mr.M, ill send you a private post later during the evening as I'm at work now
Take your time..I`ll be sure to respond :D

Apologies yet again

predatorpulse7
12-23-2012, 01:10 PM
Ezio did get a fairytale ending compared to others, I mean what did Altair get? Locked up in a stone safe, Connor got his village destroyed, Nikolai got killed by his own son (so I've read..) and how was Liberation's ending?

Unrelated but I think the next AC might just feature Aveline.

Dying from a heart attack in your 60's(by comparison Altair lived until 90 or something and got to see his son turn into a man) near where you family was hanged while your wife and child watch on is a fairy-tale ending?

LAWL.

Sure, I guess you could say that he was "at peace" but while I was watching Embers I never got that impression. It's like he still wanted to do a lot of stuff in his life(much of it wasted away on assassin business) but he was fearing that he was running out of time and in the end he was right about that.

BaronVonES
12-23-2012, 05:59 PM
Dying from a heart attack in your 60's(by comparison Altair lived until 90 or something and got to see his son turn into a man) near where you family was hanged while your wife and child watch on is a fairy-tale ending?

LAWL.

Sure, I guess you could say that he was "at peace" but while I was watching Embers I never got that impression. It's like he still wanted to do a lot of stuff in his life(much of it wasted away on assassin business) but he was fearing that he was running out of time and in the end he was right about that.
*potential spoilers*

Ezio's ending was certainly happier than Connors, all things considered. Throughout his life he actually had lasting accomplishments, and by the time he'd retired he'd essentially defeated all of his foes and 'won'. Shaun even said in Ezio's database entry that the moment of his retirement was 'ending on a high note'. Connor might have eliminated all of his targets, but he failed his ultimate goal, was utterly betrayed by the side he thought would help him and discovered that the being that spurred him on his journey to begin with didn't care about his motivations (only the discovering and hiding of an artifact that wouldn't be relevant for hundreds of years). The point really is that by comparison, Connor's story is undeservedly soul-crushingly depressing for an AC protagonist when put into a certain perspective.

To the original topic: I may be repeating what others think, but my perception is that Achilles saw two negative traits in Connor: that he expected too much, and that his views/understandings of the problems fueling the conflict were simplistic. In saying that life isn't a fairy tail, he was trying to emphasise that the world is more complex than Connor imagined. No simple killing of a few 'bad' men will 'fix' the problems he is trying to tackle. In saying that there are no happy endings, Achilles was being cynical and bitter over his own failures, but also making Connor aware that i) he could fail rather easily and ii) even in the face of his victories, the final result may not be good for him (clear foreshadowing to what actually happens in the end). The two traits essentially reduce to the same outcome - that Connor wasn't properly braced for the disappointment that his actions might yield.

FirestarLuva
12-23-2012, 07:43 PM
*potential spoilers*

Ezio's ending was certainly happier than Connors, all things considered. Throughout his life he actually had lasting accomplishments, and by the time he'd retired he'd essentially defeated all of his foes and 'won'. Shaun even said in Ezio's database entry that the moment of his retirement was 'ending on a high note'. Connor might have eliminated all of his targets, but he failed his ultimate goal, was utterly betrayed by the side he thought would help him and discovered that the being that spurred him on his journey to begin with didn't care about his motivations (only the discovering and hiding of an artifact that wouldn't be relevant for hundreds of years). The point really is that by comparison, Connor's story is undeservedly soul-crushingly depressing for an AC protagonist when put into a certain perspective.

To the original topic: I may be repeating what others think, but my perception is that Achilles saw two negative traits in Connor: that he expected too much, and that his views/understandings of the problems fueling the conflict were simplistic. In saying that life isn't a fairy tail, he was trying to emphasise that the world is more complex than Connor imagined. No simple killing of a few 'bad' men will 'fix' the problems he is trying to tackle. In saying that there are no happy endings, Achilles was being cynical and bitter over his own failures, but also making Connor aware that i) he could fail rather easily and ii) even in the face of his victories, the final result may not be good for him (clear foreshadowing to what actually happens in the end). The two traits essentially reduce to the same outcome - that Connor wasn't properly braced for the disappointment that his actions might yield.

+1
Also, welcome to the forums. :)

BaronVonES
12-23-2012, 09:33 PM
+1
Also, welcome to the forums. :)
Thank you, and very nice to meet you too :-)
I've been a lurker for a while, and will likely continue to be, popping in with the occasional opinion if I'm bursting to voice it :-P

FirestarLuva
12-23-2012, 10:09 PM
Thank you, and very nice to meet you too :-)
I've been a lurker for a while, and will likely continue to be, popping in with the occasional opinion if I'm bursting to voice it :-P

That's good. We need some more positivity on these forums. :3

cmrggamer
12-23-2012, 10:21 PM
*potential spoilers*

Ezio's ending was certainly happier than Connors, all things considered. Throughout his life he actually had lasting accomplishments, and by the time he'd retired he'd essentially defeated all of his foes and 'won'. Shaun even said in Ezio's database entry that the moment of his retirement was 'ending on a high note'. Connor might have eliminated all of his targets, but he failed his ultimate goal, was utterly betrayed by the side he thought would help him and discovered that the being that spurred him on his journey to begin with didn't care about his motivations (only the discovering and hiding of an artifact that wouldn't be relevant for hundreds of years). The point really is that by comparison, Connor's story is undeservedly soul-crushingly depressing for an AC protagonist when put into a certain perspective.

To the original topic: I may be repeating what others think, but my perception is that Achilles saw two negative traits in Connor: that he expected too much, and that his views/understandings of the problems fueling the conflict were simplistic. In saying that life isn't a fairy tail, he was trying to emphasise that the world is more complex than Connor imagined. No simple killing of a few 'bad' men will 'fix' the problems he is trying to tackle. In saying that there are no happy endings, Achilles was being cynical and bitter over his own failures, but also making Connor aware that i) he could fail rather easily and ii) even in the face of his victories, the final result may not be good for him (clear foreshadowing to what actually happens in the end). The two traits essentially reduce to the same outcome - that Connor wasn't properly braced for the disappointment that his actions might yield.

Beautifully stated :)

cmrggamer
12-23-2012, 10:35 PM
You got that point correct, referring to myself I do use Video games as a way to escape my reality , when it came down to Connor I love the start very strong all was going great until the end unfulfilling fate of his tribe. I felt like what was I fighting for in the end , tried to throw a petition. To change the ending didn't work, trying to understand it helped, that's why I'm keen on buying the forsaken book. However in the end when you look outside the box, it really isn't that tragic, Connor accomplished more than what he lost, both in his time and Desmonds time.So personally this gives me a replay incentive to reply the hero connor again. Going inside forums and watching YouTube videos people are always ranting Connor didn't do anything , they seem to miss the bigger picture, which would be easily looked at if the story was white and black. What do you think ?

I think Connor did achieve something, something bigger than himself--he ultimately helps the developing country secure its independence and Desmond with the future... But, I also think that when you look at Connor on a more personal level, he lost a lot. Even the values he holds so dear--true freedom and equality--are not ensured with the ending of the war, depicted by one of the epilogue scenes. In the end though, maybe a reason I really like Connor too (and enjoy replaying his story) is because even in the face of everything he's lost he never gave up, and that's something that can be inspiring to everyone.

Also, the Forsaken book is mostly about Haytham, not Connor--just in case you weren't aware.

predatorpulse7
12-24-2012, 12:18 AM
*potential spoilers*

Ezio's ending was certainly happier than Connors, all things considered. Throughout his life he actually had lasting accomplishments, and by the time he'd retired he'd essentially defeated all of his foes and 'won'. Shaun even said in Ezio's database entry that the moment of his retirement was 'ending on a high note'. Connor might have eliminated all of his targets, but he failed his ultimate goal, was utterly betrayed by the side he thought would help him and discovered that the being that spurred him on his journey to begin with didn't care about his motivations (only the discovering and hiding of an artifact that wouldn't be relevant for hundreds of years). The point really is that by comparison, Connor's story is undeservedly soul-crushingly depressing for an AC protagonist when put into a certain perspective.

.

Ezio didn't "win" because in Revelations(and Embers especially) it is clear that he believes he has given up most of his life fighting for something that he believed in yet he still doesn't know his role in the grand scheme of things(at the end of Revelations he basically says "I quit, I'm too old for this s**t") so in the end he doesn't know how his actions will affect what will come after him and he has basically missed out on family and children. And once he starts to really live his life instead of doing his Assassin duties, by settling down with Sophia and his child, he gets a heart attack near the spot where his family died.

Sure, I guess it is better than Connor's story, which is nothing but sadness(which might explain why Connor is so emo'ish at times) but it's still a very sad story if you think about it. We have a guy that sees most of his family murdered in his teens, chases "bad guys" all over the globe based on what some organization tells him and after 40 or so years in "service" he realizes that he doesn't know much more about his role in this world than when he started out. At least for Connor the disillusion comes when he is still at a pretty young age so he still has time to heal his wounds and move on with his life, maybe marry and settle down.

I though this quote by Ezio was very telling : "I knew I would not have enough time to do everything. Now I worry I do not have enough time to do anything."

This speaks volumes to me because it shows me that Ezio stil feels like he has stuff to do and it doesn't have anything to do with the Order, but with actually being a family man, being there for those he loves. The time that he should've spent building a family was used up hunting Templars with no tangible payback in Ezio's lifetime(and as we see, the Asssassin Order gets very vulnerable later on so in the end all of Ezio's work may have been in vain so his life's quest could've been for nothing).

All of our assassins had sad lives but I think the "best" ending was Altair's because even though he also had a lot of pain in his life, he lived a very long life(90 years or so) and got to watch at least some of his sons grow up. Not to mention the fact that he writes the Codex, hides apples of Eden, etc.

Regarding Achilles, the old man knew his stuff and he was right to warn Connor, no Assassin gets a happy ending because the life on an Assassin is nothing but pain. You can only try to lessen the pain as you move forward in life but it will always be there in one form or another.

To counter the negativity and sadness of Connor's story, think of it this way: Yes, he does lose his family and his tribe will probably get anihilated in the near future anyway but at least he tried to do some good and mostly succeeded but this conflict is clearly bigger than him. Plus, he doesn't have a strong order to back him up like previous Assassins before him. In fact the Assassin Order is almost dead in the New World so I doubt that Connor has any allegiance to them, he was more faithful to Achilles than to the overall Assassin concept. So in fact Connor is now free to rebuild his life with whomever he wants and however he wants and more importantly he has nowhere but to go but up.

BaronVonES
12-24-2012, 12:45 AM
Ezio didn't "win" because in Revelations(and Embers especially) it is clear that he believes he has given up most of his life fighting for something that he believed in yet he still doesn't know his role in the grand scheme of things(at the end of Revelations he basically says "I quit, I'm too old for this s**t") so in the end he doesn't know how his actions will affect what will come after him and he has basically missed out on family and children. And once he starts to really live his life instead of doing his Assassin duties, by settling down with Sophia and his child, he gets a heart attack near the spot where his family died.

Sure, I guess it is better than Connor's story, which is nothing but sadness(which might explain why Connor is so emo'ish at times) but it's still a very sad story if you think about it. We have a guy that sees most of his family murdered in his teens, chases "bad guys" all over the globe based on what some organization tells him and after 40 or so years in "service" he realizes that he doesn't know much more about his role in this world than when he started out. At least for Connor the disillusion comes when he is still at a pretty young age so he still has time to heal his wounds and move on with his life, maybe marry and settle down.

I though this quote by Ezio was very telling : "I knew I would not have enough time to do everything. Now I worry I do not have enough time to do anything."

This speaks volumes to me because it shows me that Ezio stil feels like he has stuff to do and it doesn't have anything to do with the Order, but with actually being a family man, being there for those he loves. The time that he should've spent building a family was used up hunting Templars with no tangible payback in Ezio's lifetime(and as we see, the Asssassin Order gets very vulnerable later on so in the end all of Ezio's work may have been in vain so his life's quest could've been for nothing).

All of our assassins had sad lives but I think the "best" ending was Altair's because even though he also had a lot of pain in his life, he lived a very long life(90 years or so) and got to watch at least some of his sons grow up. Not to mention the fact that he writes the Codex, hides apples of Eden, etc.
No disagreements with what you said. All I'm noting is that comparatively, Ezio had more longstanding victories than Connor. Both characters experience tragedies, and I agree that Ezio's actual end was rather sad, but by the end I would say Ezio's overall status was that of a victor (even if we only consider the events of ACII to be fair to Connor). There is a sense of accomplishment for Ezio's journey at the end of each game -- even Revelations, since he successfully found the library he was searching for and retired peacefully in such a way that even Altair admitted that he longed for. Connor very clearly loses at the end of his game, with only Homestead to show for his troubles. It's difficult to get any similar feeling of accomplishment or joy for what Connor receives in the conclusion.

predatorpulse7
12-24-2012, 12:59 AM
No disagreements with what you said. All I'm noting is that comparatively, Ezio had more longstanding victories than Connor. Both characters experience tragedies, and I agree that Ezio's actual end was rather sad, but by the end I would say Ezio's overall status was that of a victor (even if we only consider the events of ACII to be fair to Connor). There is a sense of accomplishment for Ezio's journey at the end of each game -- even Revelations, since he successfully found the library he was searching for and retired peacefully in such a way that even Altair admitted that he longed for. Connor very clearly loses at the end of his game, with only Homestead to show for his troubles. It's difficult to get any similar feeling of accomplishment or joy for what Connor receives in the conclusion.

I feel what you are saying that it's a case of lose the battle(s) and actually winning the war for Connor.

Why? Sure, he had tragedy, his way of life is probably destroyed but moving forward, he has no greater life long-quest(that we know of) like Altair or Ezio and he can settle down and try to integrate in the new nation that he helped build. Connor will get to live his life unlike other Assassins(he is still young). In this game it wasn't hinted that Connor has to go to place x or y for the next couple of years in order to consolidate the Order. In fact, from what I got in the game, Connor didn't really take pride in his Assassin badge so to speak(even moreso after seeing the faults of their philosophy) but he used their training in order to get at Charles Lee, his ultimate target. Plainly said, I don't think that Connor will be the next Achilles for the Assassin Order in the US and his real life will start after AC3 ended unless Ubi has plans for him. Another sign for me that Ubi had no idea of what to do with this character is that they have him almost no closure.

He oscillates between 2 camps throughout while trying to defend the third(his village) and kill Charles Lee, does so at the end of the game and ... *drum roll* nothing else. All they left Connor with was a b!tching new haircut and the sense that his vengeance mission was over. We don't even get a hint of what he does next(the only relevant "final" mission story-wise is burying Achilles), the game just ends and then goes back into free roam mode.

Assassin_M
12-24-2012, 01:06 AM
I feel what you are saying that it's a case of lose the battle(s) and actually winning the war for Connor.

Why? Sure, he had tragedy, his way of life is probably destroyed but moving forward, he has no greater life long-quest(that we know of) like Altair or Ezio and he can settle down and try to integrate in the new nation that he helped build. Connor will get to live his life unlike other Assassins(he is still young). In this game it wasn't hinted that Connor has to go to place x or y for the next couple of years in order to consolidate the Order. In fact, from what I got in the game, Connor didn't really take pride in his Assassin badge so to speak(even moreso after seeing the faults of their philosophy) but he used their training in order to get at Charles Lee, his ultimate target. Plainly said, I don't think that Connor will be the next Achilles for the Assassin Order in the US and his real life will start after AC3 ended unless Ubi has plans for him. Another sign for me that Ubi had no idea of what to do with this character is that they have him almost no closure.

He oscillates between 2 camps throughout while trying to defend the third(his village) and kill Charles Lee, does so at the end of the game and ... *drum roll* nothing else. All they left Connor with was a b!tching new haircut and the sense that his vengeance mission was over. We don't even get a hint of what he does next(the only relevant "final" mission story-wise is burying Achilles), the game just ends and then goes back into free roam mode.
Your points and speculations are extremely weak and are only there because of a fan-boyish love for Ezio and blind hate for Connor...

Slayer_WTF
12-24-2012, 01:10 AM
It's so hard love all the Assassins? I have no preference.

predatorpulse7
12-24-2012, 01:12 AM
Your points and speculations are extremely weak and are only there because of a fan-boyish love for Ezio and blind hate for Connor...

So because I'm saying that Connor probably won in the long run I''m an ezio fanboy?

And you shouldn't talk about fanboy-ism, I've seen nothing but negative comments from you against anyone that DARED to dislike ANY aspect of AC3 and insisting that Connor is the best character in the AC universe up until now and anyone who doesn't agree is either a ezio fanboy or doesn't see the nuances of his character. Because of your own fanboy-ish mindset you see "blind hate" where it doesn't exist. Did any of my posts about AC3 or Connor come off as hateful? I argumented my positions and gave counter-arguments when presented. I said why I think him dull, why his characterization and story is sketchy, why certain aspects of the game don't work in this setting and so on. I didn't say "CONNOR SUCKS!! EZIO 4 LIFE!!!!".

Overall I like Ezio and Altair(and these 2 are pretty much opposites, the only thing they have in common is cockyness at times) more than Connor and I don't think I'm in the minority here.

Assassin_M
12-24-2012, 01:22 AM
Overall I like Ezio and Altair more than Connor and I don't think I'm in the minority here.
You are.

And regarding negative comments to people complaining about AC III....Lets not go there. I`v nothing to prove to you...I complain and I agree with many complaints. You dont see that ??????? NOT MY ****ING PROBLEM..My only negative comments go to the "AC III SUCKED OH MY GOOOOSH PIECE OF **** GAME STUPID STORY BORING CONNOR AHHHHH" crowd...

And Oh no, it`s not because you say Connor Won, it`s because of other posts that go to weird lengths to defend anything that screams EZIO and you speaking of your opinion as fact which is extremely annoying

predatorpulse7
12-24-2012, 01:44 AM
You are.

And regarding negative comments to people complaining about AC III....Lets not go there. I`v nothing to prove to you...I complain and I agree with many complaints. You dont see that ??????? NOT MY ****ING PROBLEM..My only negative comments go to the "AC III SUCKED OH MY GOOOOSH PIECE OF **** GAME STUPID STORY BORING CONNOR AHHHHH" crowd...

And Oh no, it`s not because you say Connor Won, it`s because of other posts that go to weird lengths to defend anything that screams EZIO and you speaking of your opinion as fact which is extremely annoying

So put me on ignore if you can't stand other opinions.

I responded in a calm and cool, argumentative manner to every post that was adressed to me(not just by you) and yet you call me a fanboy when you can't even take a minor joke at Connor's expense and you scream in CAPS for portions of your posts. It seems that you are way more passionate about this exchange than me and this constitues fanboy-ish behavior in my eyes.

Since we are going in circles accusing eachother of fanboy-ism and whatnot, put me on ignore and I let's get this over with.

Assassin_M
12-24-2012, 01:47 AM
So put me on ignore if you can't stand other opinions.

I responded in a calm and cool, argumentative manner to every post that was adressed to me(not just by you) and yet you call me a fanboy when you can't even take a minor joke at Connor's expense and you scream in CAPS for portions of your posts. It seems that you are way more passionate about this exchange than me and this constitues fanboy-ish behavior in my eyes.

Since we are going in circles accusing eachother of fanboy-ism and whatnot, put me on ignore and I let's get this over with.

Do I have to ?? I want to laugh some more...

BaronVonES
12-24-2012, 02:20 AM
It's a disservice to PredatorPulse to say that he blindly hates Connor. I've read his posts and see that he has constructive criticisms to make. He's stated before that he doesn't find Connor bad, but victim to poor writing in the story.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/726877-Why-don-t-you-guys-like-Connor-spoilers?p=8820596#post8820596

Pretty much everything he's said in that post I agree with, and I actually like Connor. We can disagree on what we believe about the characters till the cows come home, but it is disingenuous to call Predator's position blind hate. He's given considerably more care to his position than a blind hater would.


Regarding Achilles, the old man knew his stuff and he was right to warn Connor, no Assassin gets a happy ending because the life on an Assassin is nothing but pain. You can only try to lessen the pain as you move forward in life but it will always be there in one form or another.

To counter the negativity and sadness of Connor's story, think of it this way: Yes, he does lose his family and his tribe will probably get anihilated in the near future anyway but at least he tried to do some good and mostly succeeded but this conflict is clearly bigger than him. Plus, he doesn't have a strong order to back him up like previous Assassins before him. In fact the Assassin Order is almost dead in the New World so I doubt that Connor has any allegiance to them, he was more faithful to Achilles than to the overall Assassin concept. So in fact Connor is now free to rebuild his life with whomever he wants and however he wants and more importantly he has nowhere but to go but up.
Agreed on the first paragraph. As for the second, I suppose it is a more positive spin to put on the situation. But it means little to Connor though. If a person wants to save a group of people and utterly fails to do so, it is little consolation to tell them that they've saved a future that they'll never live to witness. What makes it more painful really is that Juno just needed to tell Connor to give the relic she used to communicate with him to Haytham. She could tell Haytham to bury the key and save Connor the anguish of his later years. In fact, since Connor wouldn't have eliminated the high ranking members Templar Order, if the Templars had been true to their word, Connor's people would have been saved from the British (not honkey-dorey mind you, but better off than they turned out to be).

I'm glad to see that you can spin the positive aspect of Connor's story out, I must say. Makes me just a wee a bit less depressed for the guy xD

Assassin_M
12-24-2012, 02:27 AM
It's a disservice to PredatorPulse to say that he blindly hates Connor. I've read his posts and see that he has constructive criticisms to make. He's stated before that he doesn't find Connor bad, but victim to poor writing in the story.


I apologize then. I guess the only reason I`m enraged at him is because he makes excellent posts, but speaks of them as facts...No..Just No. nothing is more annoying than a self-important member who thinks his opinion is what`s right and everything else is wrong..

BaronVonES
12-24-2012, 02:39 AM
I apologize then. I guess the only reason I`m enraged at him is because he makes excellent posts, but speaks of them as facts...No..Just No. nothing is more annoying than a self-important member who thinks his opinion is what`s right and everything else is wrong..
No worries - don't apologise to me of all people xD

The key is to realise that stating opinion as fact is just a literary and argumentative technique, not necessarily a reflection of a self-inflated opinion or arrogance. If someone says 'Connor is a good/bad character', I understand that they mean 'I find Connor to be a good/bad character for X reasons...'. There isn't a need to be aggressive and say 'Well that's just YOUR opinion!' because they'll likely be aware that it is. They just feel strongly about their opinion, as do you about your own and anybody else engaged passionately in the discussion about their own opinions. Essentially, don't be bothered by people who don't prefix their opinions with 'I think/I feel' (i.e. most people) unless they outright state 'IT IS AN OBJECTIVE FACT THAT [INSERT OPINION]' (it's fine to call people out on that nonsense).

Assassin_M
12-24-2012, 02:42 AM
No worries - don't apologise to me of all people xD

The key is to realise that stating opinion as fact is just a literary and argumentative technique, not necessarily a reflection of a self-inflated opinion or arrogance. If someone says 'Connor is a good/bad character', I understand that they mean 'I find Connor to be a good/bad character for X reasons...'. There isn't a need to be aggressive and say 'Well that's just YOUR opinion!' because they'll likely be aware that it is. They just feel strongly about their opinion, as do you about your own and anybody else engaged passionately in the discussion about their own opinions. Essentially, don't be bothered by people who don't prefix their opinions with 'I think/I feel' (i.e. most people) unless they outright state 'IT IS AN OBJECTIVE FACT THAT [INSERT OPINION]' (it's fine to call people out on that nonsense).
I was apologizing to him actually:p

Also,

IT IS AN OBJECTIVE FACT THAT [INSERT OPINION]' (it's fine to call people out on that nonsense).
He actually did that during one of our many and FUN conversations. I may be an angry Idiot, but not to that far of an extent xD

predatorpulse7
12-24-2012, 02:51 AM
I'm glad to see that you can spin the positive aspect of Connor's story out, I must say. Makes me just a wee a bit less depressed for the guy xD

If you look at the whole story of Connor after finishing the game, it's clear that his was a battle that was lost from the beginning no matter how hard he fought against it. As I said before, his story gets lost in the meta-story of the American Revolutionary War and what it means for his people. Whoever he chooses, in the end his way of life is outdated and they will be absorbed, whether by Templars or others. Now obviously Connor can' t take solace in this right away but I imagine that after the years pass and he sees the encroaching influence of the European colonists(that basically wiped out all of the Amerindians, not just his tribe) in the New World, he sees that he tried his best but also that ultimately, one man can't stop the world in its tracks to preserve his kin.
Their own sheltered world will lose its innocence just like Connor lost his early on. It's inevitable.

While I am sure that he will feel very bad about what happened for a couple of months/years, in the end, if he still lives, he has nowhere to go but up. If you've killed your father, your best friend, seen your way of life disappear under the boot of invaders, there is nowhere to go but up and Connor still has his friends on the Homestead for some solace, not to mention the fact that tomboy Dobby seems to dig him.

avk111
12-25-2012, 10:42 AM
If you look at the whole story of Connor after finishing the game, it's clear that his was a battle that was lost from the beginning no matter how hard he fought against it. As I said before, his story gets lost in the meta-story of the American Revolutionary War and what it means for his people. Whoever he chooses, in the end his way of life is outdated and they will be absorbed, whether by Templars or others. Now obviously Connor can' t take solace in this right away but I imagine that after the years pass and he sees the encroaching influence of the European colonists(that basically wiped out all of the Amerindians, not just his tribe) in the New World, he sees that he tried his best but also that ultimately, one man can't stop the world in its tracks to preserve his kin.
Their own sheltered world will lose its innocence just like Connor lost his early on. It's inevitable.

While I am sure that he will feel very bad about what happened for a couple of months/years, in the end, if he still lives, he has nowhere to go but up. If you've killed your father, your best friend, seen your way of life disappear under the boot of invaders, there is nowhere to go but up and Connor still has his friends on the Homestead for some solace, not to mention the fact that tomboy Dobby seems to dig him.

Just to simplify Connor did realize that there was no way for them t be safe, right after the death of his best friend, He say to him, "it seems our village will never be safe" , he accepts it at that point. Watch the animus corridor scene,

by the way just a side question who is taking care of those native kids left in the village after the tribe is gone, doesn't look right leaving kids with that lonely man :p

CartopBALTO
01-01-2013, 09:19 PM
Let us look into the second tenet of the Creed: Hide in plain sight. Be one with the crowd.

Achilles might have seen Connor himself, and the tragic death of his mother, and might have even known of his father.* Or simply, in-between the time skipped (I clearly remember three 6-month skips, maybe Connor told his story between those...)
*Edit: Remember when Ratonhnhaké:ton first met Achilles- Achilles said that the Templars, whose names were written on the wall with their portraits, must die, Ratonhnhaké:ton said- "Even my father" without pointing towards any specific painting, to which Achilles replied- "Especially your father, he's the one holding the whole thing together", with Achilles pointing at Haytham, which is shown to us as zooming in on Haytham's portrait. Achilles KNEW that Haytham was Ratonhnhaké:ton's father.

In no way Achilles can see the future, he has no Piece of Eden, the only way to see the future. The most we could add was that it was Achilles who told Connor that Haytham must die, so he could have judged the situation as a very sad thing for Connor.
Edit: The 'ending' of his story, is obviously the ending of his mission, which ends with the death of all the Templars Achilles had names and portraits of.

avk111
01-02-2013, 07:59 AM
Sidequestion

Who are these kids in the village at the end of the game ? :p

CartopBALTO
01-02-2013, 05:04 PM
One of them gets killed by Connor. Achilles' son CAN be there, as one in the crowd.