PDA

View Full Version : Padlock and TrackIR



XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 10:50 PM
I simply cannot justify the money for TrackIR.
Don't get me wrong, it's a great toy/aid, just a little pricy.
I always use Padlock and don't generally join servers that have it disabled. To turn your head in FB you use your mouse or HAT switch. In RL you would do it naturally without thinking about it.
If I have a visual of an NME I hit the padlock key and let the Sim do what I think I would do naturally in RL. If you're chasing someone I believe your gaze would just follow the aircraft. For me Padlock simulates your head/gaze tracking the NME.
It's too tricky in a DF situation to be using your mouse to look and joystick to control your flight at the same time (not to mention pressing keys on the keyboard!).
The HAT switch isn't too bad but canot be used accurately to get your pilots gaze exactly where you want it to be.
I think Padlock is essential for those who don't have/can't afford TrackIR.
I don't use Padlock as a cheat either for picking out NME's that may be camouflaged by terrain. I only use it when I have a definate visual of my foe.

Do you think people who host servers with Padlock disabled are being a little unfair? I think Padlock is a simulation of your gaze.

What do you think?

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 10:50 PM
I simply cannot justify the money for TrackIR.
Don't get me wrong, it's a great toy/aid, just a little pricy.
I always use Padlock and don't generally join servers that have it disabled. To turn your head in FB you use your mouse or HAT switch. In RL you would do it naturally without thinking about it.
If I have a visual of an NME I hit the padlock key and let the Sim do what I think I would do naturally in RL. If you're chasing someone I believe your gaze would just follow the aircraft. For me Padlock simulates your head/gaze tracking the NME.
It's too tricky in a DF situation to be using your mouse to look and joystick to control your flight at the same time (not to mention pressing keys on the keyboard!).
The HAT switch isn't too bad but canot be used accurately to get your pilots gaze exactly where you want it to be.
I think Padlock is essential for those who don't have/can't afford TrackIR.
I don't use Padlock as a cheat either for picking out NME's that may be camouflaged by terrain. I only use it when I have a definate visual of my foe.

Do you think people who host servers with Padlock disabled are being a little unfair? I think Padlock is a simulation of your gaze.

What do you think?

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 10:55 PM
I think the computer is doing all the work for you with padlock. With TrackIR, you can still lose the enemy. I find padlock much much easier to use than TrackIR.

TrackIR won't spot planes you can't see normally like padlock either. Anyway, you asked for opinions. That's mine.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------47|FC=-
<center>
"No Guts No Glory"
<center>
http://www.fighter-collection.com/p-47d/img/jug.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 10:57 PM
Those with fancy equipment always have advantage over those who don`t have`em.


I got used to my crappy equipment and figured I`m pretty happy,even though I`d like to have a separate throttle instead of a slider.

I have a good time,but I figured PL is a radar.


BTW there`s a TIR for poor ppl/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zbjpt

"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

Message Edited on 08/09/0311:58PM by carguy_

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:02 PM
Do you like to use TrackIR because it is harder to use than padlock??
Do you think then that Padlock would be turning your virtual pilots head to an unnatural painful angle? Does TrackIR not cover the head turning range that Padlock does?
I agree that the computer is doing the work for you but that was my point. Simulating something you can't do if you haven't got TrackIR.

Thanks for your comments BuzzU, they are appreciated...

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:14 PM
I found staying on the target much easier when I used padlock. It would let you see what your real head turning could never do.

Even though you say you don't use padlock to spot targets. Most guys do../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------47|FC=-
<center>
"No Guts No Glory"
<center>
http://www.fighter-collection.com/p-47d/img/jug.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:16 PM
Thanks for the forum link carguy, sounds like just what I need to get into padlock/radar(!) disabled servers.

Just hope I can figure out the set up.

Maybe I rely too much on padlock, but I enjoy using it.

Perhaps it could be changed in a future patch the same way that trim was. Still function as keeping your gaze locked on an NME, but limit it a little (or a lot). Have the head turn range not as extreme (maybe padlock does gives you a head like an owl). Don't allow padlock to lock on aircraft that are cammo'd against terrain. This could be determined by gamecode that compares the aircraft markings to the terrain and calculates a percentage of visibility. If below a certain percentage don't allow padlock??

PS It suprises me that you say most people use Padlock for spotting targets BuzzU. If I have an NME in front of me and he's about to go out of my FOV, I hit Padlock. That's how I've used always used padlock. If it's being used as a radar I think it should be patched with limits.

Message Edited on 08/09/0311:27PM by Scragbat

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:30 PM
I absolutly can not stand pad lock.... it is completly unfair for someone to use it because you can never shake them when thier on ur six you can pull anymove in the book and they will allways know where you are.
for that reason only i think its great that it is banned in so many servers. I never check to see if its on because most servers i frequant never have it on...
I can allways tell when its on because that #1 the only time i get shot down. unless im on cooler and power hitters server. #2 no matter what move i pull or how sweet i pull it off thier allways on my 6. if thats the case i just leave for a more realistic server...

you cant justify knowing where the plane is when its under the cockpit or in the bars or canopy... its just crap.

Now where all entitaled to our opinion. You asked and i stated. But your reason is fine and you should continue to fly anyway you choose.

Out. War.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:40 PM
Agreed Wargod5475.

Do you think Padlock should be patched to simulate a more realistic gaze of a pilot tracking a plane.
The instant a plane is obscured by any part of the cockpit (even with cockpit off) padlock will be lost? So those fancy moves you speak of will shake and lose a padlock, and like I said before. Limit the virtual pilots head turning range...?

Has any of this ever been mentioned as a possible patch in the ready room? should it?

I find HAT tricky. If the previously mentioned programs can successfully turn my HAT into a virtual mouse, that could be something.
I simply like the fact that Padlock can simulate (well almost) a pilots head turning. Something you do without thinking.



Message Edited on 08/09/0311:42PM by Scragbat

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:03 AM
I don't use padlock, yes i am serious, cuz i never got the trick of it , so to say it so ,I'm to dumb to use it correctly. Whenever I lst the prop from sight, I start waving my plane around so.. no thanks.
I don't have TrackIR, but I agree with Buzz, in RL, pilots could hardly apreciate the movement of enemy planes like the PL does

"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:25 AM
Padlock's "unreal" advantages include,

1. Follwing a plane that has moved under the cockpit.
2. Aquirring targets that are mere dots. In RL you wouldn't know if it was friend or foe. (Except when approaching enemy territory one could assume planes ahead were not friendly if you were at the front of the invasion force.)

I have tried padlock but feel that using my eyes much as a pilot would, (mouse or, if I had it, Track IR), and let my brain do the work is much closer to full real. If an enemy a/c flies under my nose I'll invert my plane (if safe) and track w/ my eyes.

As for the post suggesting that pilots who use padlock can stay on your six and you always get shot down has something to do with allowing the enemy to get there in the first place.

*****Only left handed people are in their right minds.*****

<center>http://www.ghosts.com/images/wing.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:27 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- I think the computer is doing all the work for you
- with padlock. With TrackIR, you can still lose the
- enemy. I find padlock much much easier to use than
- TrackIR.
-
- TrackIR won't spot planes you can't see normally
- like padlock either. Anyway, you asked for opinions.
- That's mine.


Thats exactly mine too..
Its like target locking... I didn't use it even before I got TrackIr.. Suck it up and get the toy that best simulates RL if thats what you are looking for..

<img src=http://home.insightbb.com/%7Edspinnett/NonSpeed/SpeedToys.jpg </img>
http://hometown.aol.com/spinnetti/

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:35 AM
Just imagine TrackIR and those 3D Glasses(miss the name). They are like little screens that stay like glasses in front of you. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif OMG!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:35 AM
Still seems a lot of money.
Isn't TrackIR intended for people with disabilities?
Might feel a little funny using it for a game...

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:37 AM
Tks WG your not easy to get and lastnight you were kicking us good!
LOL... GF O ya PH doesn`t use it but I do for the reason mentioned above.

I did some intro CAM teaching for the German Airforce for 3 years in a T-34 and can say that you do follow the target plane with your eyes and 99% of the time you never take them off, unless they are on your dead 6. Padlock to me works just the same as in RL. I tried TR but when I fly FB my head is moving around to much from old habit in RL.

I can understand that on FR severs that it would be used as a radar, but in ours we have map icons on so it really doesn`t matter.

If anyone wants to find out for real that hasn`t done it go out to AirCombat Inc. there are 3 or 4 around the country jump in a Marchetti or Mentor and shoot someone down for ALMOST real and you will see how your head moves around what 6 positive and 3 negative G`s feels like etc.

!S!

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:40 AM
Funny you should mention that. I have a pair of ELSA glasses which I got in a clearance sale (5 UK pounds!!).
They work great when I set my monitor to 800x600 which gives me 100hz (50hz with glasses active).
Unfortunately they don't work with FB and I don't think anybody has succesfully got them to work.
Would love 3D depth in FB.
All my other games work with the ELSA glasses.
...not FB though...

Von_Zero wrote:
- Just imagine TrackIR and those 3D Glasses(miss the
- name). They are like little screens that stay like
- glasses in front of you. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif OMG!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- "The show must go on..."
- <center><img
- src="http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/ia
- r81t.jpg"></center>

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:47 AM
Ah ha!!!!!!!!!!
Padlock works like it does in RL you say, just hoped at least one person would say that! It is as I suspected...
People don't agree though...
I am a gamer and have ZERO RL experience but I imagined padlock to behave like a real pilots gaze (apart from the radar exploit)...
Thnx Cooler07


Cooler07 wrote:
- Tks WG your not easy to get and lastnight you were
- kicking us good!
- LOL... GF O ya PH doesn`t use it but I do for the
- reason mentioned above.
-
-
- I did some intro CAM teaching for the German
- Airforce for 3 years in a T-34 and can say that you
- do follow the target plane with your eyes and 99% of
- the time you never take them off, unless they are on
- your dead 6. Padlock to me works just the same as in
- RL. I tried TR but when I fly FB my head is moving
- around to much from old habit in RL.
-
-
-
- I can understand that on FR severs that it would
- be used as a radar, but in ours we have map icons on
- so it really doesn`t matter.
-
-
- If anyone wants to find out for real that hasn`t
- done it go out to AirCombat Inc. there are 3 or 4
- around the country jump in a Marchetti or Mentor
- and shoot someone down for ALMOST real and you will
- see how your head moves around what 6 positive and 3
- negative G`s feels like etc.
-
-
- !S!
-
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:57 AM
Wouldn't moving your head with TrackIR be more like RL, than looking straight ahead with padlock? With padlock your plane doesn't get in the way of your view like it does in RL or TrackIR.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------47|FC=-
<center>
"No Guts No Glory"
<center>
http://www.fighter-collection.com/p-47d/img/jug.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:05 AM
SO thats the reason you fly me into the ground sometimes cooler.... ic....... lol J/K...

But hey if you were to accidentally get into the situation where your enemy was to disapear below you cockpit and say he was slowing down to get on your 6 would you really know where he was like you would with padlock? thats a foreal question. Im sure you could hear somthing. but it just seems like you could loose someone like that... What do you think?

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:06 AM
If you were following a plane with your gaze in RL and it got obscured by your plane your perception might still be able to predict where it was going. Moving your aircraft around it might then come quickly back into view.
I think maybe padlock should have a cutoff time. Say if the padlocked NME is out of your vision for more than 2 seconds*** padlock gets dropped unless you bring it back into view....
What do you think???
With these ideas I think we could get a much more refined Padlock that people would accept...

***as defined by cockpit obscurance because with padlock you still see it anyway

BuzzU wrote:
- Wouldn't moving your head with TrackIR be more like
- RL, than looking straight ahead with padlock? With
- padlock your plane doesn't get in the way of your
- view like it does in RL or TrackIR.
-
- Da Buzz
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------47|FC=-
- <center>
- "No Guts No Glory"
- <center>
<img
- src="http://www.fighter-collection.com/p-47d/img/j
- ug.jpg">
-





Message Edited on 08/10/0301:09AM by Scragbat

Message Edited on 08/10/0301:12AM by Scragbat

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:10 AM
I used to use padlock before VOW started; nearly everyone I played against used it too, so we were all on an equal playing field. I liked the dogfights because they always drew to a conclusion; once engaged, one of you was always going to eat dirt.

The dogfights are different when padlock is disabled. A lot of the time you break off because you lost the enemy. I find that dogfights are mostly just a series of passes in which, if you lose the guy you were fighting with the best thing to do is look around for another target to chase rather than turn around and try to spot your original target again. This type of dogfight is not as fun or rewarding as a padlocked one in my opinion.

But the problem I have now is that I don't even have a padlock key assigned, so I'm at a disavantage when joining a server that allows it. And even if the server disallows padlock, the guys with TrackIR generally find it easier to kick the 'mouse users' butt.

Having said that, on the server I was on last night, I asked who wasn't using padlock or TrackIR and surprisingly the three top scorers weren't. So I guess you can manage with a mouse if you practise enough.

<CENTER>http://www.666th.com/uploads/forumsigs/5-il2logo.gif</CENTER>

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:16 AM
i just use my top hat no mouse.

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:19 AM
Here are some more advantages of TrackIR. I'll just list them all including some already mentioned.

As natural as real life. To look left. Turn your head left.To look down. Move your head down.It's a no brainer, and feels very real.

One thing you can't do in padlock when your locked on a plane is look around. Check your six. You can snap forward in padlock, but you can't snap to your six. Not a problem with TrackIR.

Your not always in a fight when your flying. Looking down to check your gauges. Lining up for a landing. Flying in formation. Sure you can do all these things with your hat switch, or mouse look. However it's a different system than padlock. TrackIR is natural, and covers all these things without thinking about it. Just look where you want to go.

I know TrackIR is expensive for some of you, but almost everybody who gets TrackIR says "Why didn't I do this before. It's so cool"

That's my .05

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------47|FC=-
<center>
"No Guts No Glory"
<center>
http://www.fighter-collection.com/p-47d/img/jug.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:21 AM
Padlock is just a difficulty setting, nothing more nothing less. Fairness is not applicable here.

*ironic mode on*
I am very hamfisted so don't you think it would be a little unfair to me if stalls and spins are disabled? I keep stalling all the time and because i'm hamfisted and the others not, it's a bit unfair.

I'm also an extremely bad shot, and i wanna fly the Yak3. So don't you think it would be a little unfair to turn off unlimited ammo for the Yak3 guys who can't shoot so well?

I don't know how to manage my engine either, so turning overheat off and turning complex engine management on is also a bit unfair.

I use the keyboard to fly, don't you think it's unfair if the other guys are using joysticks, and with trimsliders?

etc. etc.
*ironic mode off*

If padlock games are your preference, you should stick to playing those. Easy enough. Plenty padlock games around. Don't join the no padlock games.

And just that it's a no padlock game doesn't mean that the host is automatically using a trackIR. It simply means that he is well versed in playing games without padlock. Which may be through snapviews, mouse or trackIR. Tracking planes yourself may be an artificial "skill", but it can be learnt very easily with or without trackIR. Before using trackIR i used snapviews to track planes. Didn't need padlock then either.

trackIR does not equal padlock. The view is not automatically steered by the padlock AI. And despite what you may believe, it's the poor man's virtual reality headgear.

Scragbat wrote:

- Do you think people who host servers with Padlock
- disabled are being a little unfair? I think Padlock
- is a simulation of your gaze.
-
- What do you think?

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:55 AM
Scragbat wrote:
- I simply cannot justify the money for TrackIR.
- Don't get me wrong, it's a great toy/aid, just a
- little pricy.

So.. sounds like you tried it, and then returned it? Otherwise how would you know if it was worth it or not?

- I always use Padlock and don't generally join
- servers that have it disabled.

I try to find ones that dont have padlock... or at lest a very limited range of padlock.. In that it kills the thrill of the hunt.. That is it takes one of the hardest thing in combat and makes it the easiest.. ie spoting the target.

- To turn your head in FB you use your mouse or HAT
- switch.

Or TrackIR

- In RL you would do it naturally without thinking
- about it.

Which is one of the best things about TrakIR.. it is natural feeling.. and really REALLY improves the IMERSION.

- If I have a visual of an NME I hit the padlock key
- and let the Sim do what I think I would do naturally
- in RL.

Enhhh, too easy! Too Un-nautral really.. totally messes up the real world tatics in that the hard part is not easy.. maitaing contact.. That and you cant do a quick GLANCE to the rear to check six.. Just feels too un-natural.

- If you're chasing someone I believe your
- gaze would just follow the aircraft.

Agreed.

- For me Padlock simulates your head/gaze tracking the NME.

Duh! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- It's too tricky in a DF situation to be using your
- mouse to look and joystick to control your flight at
- the same time (not to mention pressing keys on the
- keyboard!).

Agreed

- The HAT switch isn't too bad but canot be used
- accurately to get your pilots gaze exactly where you
- want it to be.

Disagree. On that note if IL2 did the HAT moves like EAW did it.. ie they did NOT SNAP to that view.. they MOVED to it.. quickly. Made for a more natural look and feel.

- I think Padlock is essential for those who don't
- have/can't afford TrackIR.

I dont.. the hat is as good... Well.. Assuming you spent more then $20.00 on your joystick!

- I don't use Padlock as a cheat either for picking
- out NME's that may be camouflaged by terrain.
- I only use it when I have a definate visual of my foe.

LOL! And no I dont want to buy a bridge! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


- Do you think people who host servers with Padlock
- disabled are being a little unfair?

NOT AT ALL! In that not *everyone* is as honest as you are! Mater of fact I doubt anyone is! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- I think Padlock is a simulation of your gaze.

Duh! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- What do you think?

See Above.



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=forum
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discussion

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 02:01 AM
WG I would just roll or yaw the nose out of the way or pull and climb calling nojoy, it all bepends on the Sit.

I don`t think trackIR is a unfair advantage it just didn`t work for me.

One thing I find funny is a server saying FR but has engine overheat or CEM off , or the 1 that has PL off but ext. views on and blackouts on where all you have to do is go ext. view and do the RBJ shift and watch your plane do supper turns and still have some control over it. But thats the way it is.

We host the settings we like and if we jump in another hosts game we never complain about there settings.

It`s just a FUN flying GAME to me and everyone should be able to fly the settings they like or want without being called every name in the book from noobs to #%%^@$^&.

!S!

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 02:12 AM
rgr that i cant stand a server with no over heat or cem on...
truth is its to hard to fly in a server with out cem... lol

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 02:15 AM
Well, yes.
Now that you mention it, of course it's fair if a host switches PL off. It's his server, he can host it how he damn well likes.

I still think PL simulates a pilots gaze tracking a plane... ...my opinion
Duh!
I can host my opinions how I like
Duh! duh!

Wether you believe me or not, I don't use PL as a Radar. I use my map as a radar, if the map is off I use my eyes, then PL when I 'see' them to hold them in my 'gaze'.
Duh!

To have PL simulate your pilots gaze is to love PL simulating your pilots gaze.

I use a Saitek Cyborg 3D Gold USB stick. Smooth, accurate and it gets me on your six.
I have never owned or used TrackIR,