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View Full Version : Which squadron in WWII conflict lost the most pilots



frag_bravo
02-19-2004, 06:37 PM
Anyone know.Im at work and we where discusing which group and or country lost the most pilots.
I say Japan.So help me win my bet with my co-worker.

frag_bravo
02-19-2004, 06:37 PM
Anyone know.Im at work and we where discusing which group and or country lost the most pilots.
I say Japan.So help me win my bet with my co-worker.

Chuck_Older
02-19-2004, 06:46 PM
Well...kamikaze or Ohka squadrons must have lost a LOT of guys http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In the realm of pilots that were expected to come back to base...

Could be some of the French or British units in 1940, flying Fairey Battles and Boulton-Paul Defiants.

The French called the Battle the "collective coffin"

*****************************
from the Hundred Years war to the Crimea, from the lance and the musket and the Roman spear, to all of the men who have stood with no fear, in the service of the King~ Clash

EPP-Gibbs
02-19-2004, 06:53 PM
...and the Russians called the LaGG the 'Lakirovanny Garantirovanny Grob'....varnished guaranteed grave.

(I'm a Brit, apologies to the Russians if my spelling is wrong)

The translations I've seen give Grob as meaning 'coffin' but I'm sure it means grave, from my knowledge of slavic language. Any comments?

If I had all the money I'd spent on drink..I'd spend it on drink!

frag_bravo
02-19-2004, 06:56 PM
Ive been trying to research this topic.But to no avil.SO we need to pull together like a iron fist and find out?

p1ngu666
02-19-2004, 06:59 PM
erm, those junkers ju52 drivers taking stuff to rommel i finks

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

Chuck_Older
02-19-2004, 07:03 PM
You're going to have to do some research to determine what squadron lost the most pilots.

I mean, to really, REALLY find out you'd have to find the squadron that lost the most pilots for each country, and then compare the numbers.

Start with US daylight bomber groups. At one point, with an 8% loss rate, no crewmember could statistically expect to survive his 12th mission...and the tour was 25 missions.

The Squadron that lost the most pilots would probably be one of the oldest, and seen the most combat, as well.

Bomber groups might have the highest aircrew loss rate, as opposed to pilot loss rate, though.


~edit

now that I think of what I just posted, I think it likely that the squadron that lost the most pilots would be a German one that fought from the beginning of the war and ended up in defense of the Reich.

Makes sense to me, attrition rate was atrocious and they flew till they died or the war was over. Find out the loss rates for the squadrons that fought the whole war, and I think you'll have found the one which lost the most in that group.
*****************************
from the Hundred Years war to the Crimea, from the lance and the musket and the Roman spear, to all of the men who have stood with no fear, in the service of the King~ Clash

frag_bravo
02-19-2004, 07:09 PM
What gruppe was the oldest in the LW? JG3 or was it 5? But some on of these pilots where from the condor squad that fought for whats his name? Franco..well any way's those where the oldest of the luftwaffe?.right?

Flat_foot
02-19-2004, 08:02 PM
I know it doesnt qualify for either. Just the subject made me think of torpedo squadron 8. Whatever The outcome of this discussion, Remember nearly every squadron/group/division, On every front, on every side Lost its fair share. In My opionion, losing 1 is too much.But as they say . War is hell

horseback
02-19-2004, 08:29 PM
I think we should disqualify the kamikaze pilots on the grounds that being killed appears to have been at least half the point. Therfore, I think it could be said that they were not lost, but 'reassigned.'

However, the squadrons (for the sake of arguement, let's assume this to be a unit that would normally put between 12 and 24 a/c into the air in peacetime)that suffered the highest losses would have to be units that were almost continuously engaged in combat throughout the war. This probably eliminates even USAAF bomber squadrons in the 8th AF, as well as most Japanese units, which often ended up fighting to the last man on the ground.

I would guess the best candidates would be squadrons in the VVS (especially Sturmovik units, which seemed to suffer horrendous losses, be replenished, and go on), RAF Bomber Command, or one of the German Fighter Staffels with long service on the Western Front.

Cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

frag_bravo
02-19-2004, 09:10 PM
Bumpty BuMP.yes I will agree the western front pilots and the kamkaize paid their dues.I watched the memphis belle, and towards the end gave a brief history of the total pilots lost on all sides was like 2million or something.I could be way off.

Menthol_moose
02-19-2004, 09:32 PM
although not a squadron, its rumoured gulag prisoners were offered freedom if they chose to become a IL2 rear gunner.

http://simpsons.metropoliglobal.com/fotogramas/2f13/09.jpg

Eh, mates! What's the good word?

J30Vader
02-19-2004, 09:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Menthol_moose:
although not a squadron, its rumoured gulag prisoners were offered freedom if they chose to become a IL2 rear gunner.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read that in a book on the Soviet Army. The standard sentence in a penal company was ten years. For each flight he made, the sentence was reduced by one year.

Anybody who survived nine never went on a tenth. His friends were told he was sent to another regiment, or set free.

He was grounded for medical reasons. "Your nerves are shot. The doc won't let you fly."

Then he got to serve a year in a mine-clearing battalion. The life expectation was lower than it was in a penal battalion that served with the infantry.

[This message was edited by J30Vader on Thu February 19 2004 at 08:52 PM.]

[This message was edited by J30Vader on Thu February 19 2004 at 08:53 PM.]

PzKpfw
02-19-2004, 10:31 PM
Well if you mean Squadron their are a few examples Ie, *Losses KIA/WIA/MIA 5th Staffel Jagdgeshwader 300 from October 1944 - March 1945:

AC = Air combat
FTF = Factory Test Flight
TF = Training Flight

10/7/44: Uffz. Alois Auth. MIA AC, Red 17.

10/18/44: Uffz. Werner Conradt. KIA, FTF, Black 1.

11/27/44: Ofhr. Herbert Schneider. KIA, AC, Red 6.

11/27/44: Ofhr. Gerhard Piel. KIA, AC, Red 5.

11/27/44: Fw. Claus Richter. WIA, AC, Red 17.

11/27/44: Gefr. Karl-Heinz Hachmann. WIA, AC, Red 10.

11/30/44: Uffz. Leo Kuhnert. KIA, AC, Red 18.

12/17/44: Uffz. Karl Rief. WIA, AC, Red 7.

12/17/44: Uffz. Walter Grund. KIA, AC, Red 15.

12/24/44: Lt. Klaus Bretschneider. KIA, AC, Red 1. (Staffelkapitan)

12/24/44: Ofw. Heinz Deil. KIA, AC, Red 17.

12/31/44: Fw. Kurt Schoepp. KIA, AC, Red 15.

12/31/44: Lt. Norbert Graziadei. WIA, AC, Red 14. (Staffelkapitan)

1/7/45: Fw. Heinrich Schluter. WIA, TF, Red 19.

1/14/45: Uffz. Mathaus Erhardt. WIA, AC, Red 6.

1/24/45: Oblt. Heinz-Dieter Gramberg. KIA, AC, Red 2. (Staffelkapitan)

2/14/45: Lt. Wolfgang Karosky. KIA, AC, Red 7.

2/14/45: Uffz. Walter Beuchel. KIA, AC, Red 6.

3/2/45: Fhr. Richard Lofgen. KIA, AC, Green 2.

3/2/45: Fhr. Siegfried Felske. KIA, AC, Red 8.

3/2/45: Uffz. Karl Lerner. KIA, AC, Red 6.

3/24/45: Uffz Hans Basteck. KIA, AC, Red 11.

3/24/45: Ofw. Claus Richter. KIA, AC, Red 9.

3/24/45: Uffz. Fritz Durrling. KIA, AC, Red 5.

3/24/45: Gefr. Karl-Heinz Hachmann. KIA, AC, Red 16.

3/24/45: Lt. Gerald Schsller. WIA, AC, Red 20.

3/24/45: Fw. Gunther Kublank. KIA, AC, Red 6.

During 6 months 5th Staffel, lost 19 pilots KIA/MIA, 6 WIA, with 3 Staffelkapittan KIA. 5th Staffel replaced it's aircrew twice over in this time.

*See: Girbig, Werner Six Months to Oblivion p.206.

Regards, John Waters

-------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945.

Menthol_moose
02-19-2004, 10:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Then he got to serve a year in a mine-clearing battalion. The life expectation was lower than it was in a penal battalion that served with the infantry.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hard to imagine a battalion with a lower life expectancy rate than a penal one !.

(the one with the rifle shoots....)

I guess that involves walking a group of prisoners through the mind field at gunpoint and waiting to see which ones go bang first.

clearing mines the manual way....

http://simpsons.metropoliglobal.com/fotogramas/2f13/09.jpg

Eh, mates! What's the good word?

J30Vader
02-19-2004, 10:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Menthol_moose:

I guess that involves walking a group of prisoners through the mind field at gunpoint and waiting to see which ones go bang first.

clearing mines the manual way....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep. Worked wonders

HansKnappstick
02-20-2004, 04:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EPP-Gibbs:
The translations I've seen give Grob as meaning 'coffin' but I'm sure it means grave, from my knowledge of slavic language. Any comments?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Grob means "coffin" in Russian but "grave" in Polish. There are many examples of very similar words meaning sometimes completely different things in those closely related languages.

Zyzbot
02-20-2004, 07:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by frag_bravo:
Anyone know.Im at work and we where discusing which group and or country lost the most pilots.
I say Japan.So help me win my bet with my co-worker.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Didn't Torpedo 8 squadron lose every single plane and all but one pilot in the attack on Japanese carriers at Midway? Gets my vote.

Chuck_Older
02-20-2004, 11:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zyzbot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by frag_bravo:
Anyone know.Im at work and we where discusing which group and or country lost the most pilots.
I say Japan.So help me win my bet with my co-worker.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Didn't Torpedo 8 squadron lose every single plane and all but one pilot in the attack on Japanese carriers at Midway? Gets my vote.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The question isn't "which group lost the most pilots in a single engagement" It's "Which lost the most pilots"

*****************************
from the Hundred Years war to the Crimea, from the lance and the musket and the Roman spear, to all of the men who have stood with no fear, in the service of the King~ Clash

chris455
02-20-2004, 12:12 PM
Torpedo 8, USS Hornet, battle of Midway would be a contender.
1 survivor. (Ensign George Gay USN)

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

jjlooxgood
02-20-2004, 12:22 PM
Torpedo 8 from USS Hornet, no question about it.

1 survivor out of 16 aircraft formation attack during the battle of Midway.

----------------------------
Korean Girls Only IL-2 Squad.

77th "Mashi-Maro Love" *W__W*

KIMURA
02-20-2004, 12:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
Torpedo 8, USS Hornet, battle of Midway would be a contender.
1 survivor. (Ensign George Gay USN)

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The JG27 lost 800 pilots during the war - woundeds not included - that's roughly 6 times of it's own strenght.

BTW please specify your question. Losses during 1 attack, during the whole war???

Chuck_Older
02-20-2004, 12:45 PM
The exact question was:

"Which squadron in WWII conflict lost the most pilots"


There's no parameter like "single battle" or "single engagement" or even "single campaign" or "single sortie", it's "Which squadron in WWII conflict lost the most pilots", which to me means exactly that: Which squadron lost the most pilots in WWII conflict, ie: loses in combat to enemy action.

It IS possible that the term "conflict" is used out of context here, but I am not going to start assuming.

*****************************
from the Hundred Years war to the Crimea, from the lance and the musket and the Roman spear, to all of the men who have stood with no fear, in the service of the King~ Clash

KIMURA
02-20-2004, 12:52 PM
Chuck, if that question is asked like that, U have a really wide bandwidht of answers.

MandMs
02-20-2004, 01:00 PM
JG26 lost 701 pilots for 2726 claims. II Gruppe lost the most, 258.

http://www.butler98.freeserve.co.uk/claims.htm



I eat the red ones last.

Chuck_Older
02-20-2004, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KIMURA:
Chuck, if that question is asked like that, U have a really wide bandwidht of answers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, not really. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"Which squadron in WWII conflict lost the most pilots"

Those are the exact words. Just like I said, unless the word 'conflict' was used in error, this means, "Which squadron in WWII lost the most pilots to enemy action". "Conflict" in this case would mean "combat" as opposed to accidents. Note that this is not my interpretation, this is what the word 'conflict' means when used in this sentence. Conflict is an opposition or struggle. It's usual use is not to denote an isolated case or occurance. It's true that there are common terms like, "constant conflict" that are an exception to what I just posted, but when you say that a cat fought a dog one time, you wouldn't usually say, "the cat and dog had a conflict" because that indicates a longterm type of event or a series of events. You'd say that the "cat and dog had a fight". If you meant the species, you might well say that, "Cats and Dogs are in conflict". That is a general, not specific, statement that says cats and dogs fight, not a specific cat and dog, or at a specific time, every cat and every dog fight, period, not just today or tomorrow. If you like, look at it like this, if you can but imagine cats and dogs being in gangs: http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

"Which gang of cats or dogs in natural conflict lost the most members of their gang?"

Here, "natural conflict" refers to the natural state of affairs where cats and dogs fight. Not a specific event, but an all inclusive condition.

The parts that reads, "WWII conflict" in the original question sets parameters in the same way: "WWII conflict" refers to combat during World War Two.

*****************************
from the Hundred Years war to the Crimea, from the lance and the musket and the Roman spear, to all of the men who have stood with no fear, in the service of the King~ Clash

KIMURA
02-20-2004, 02:46 PM
Chuck, sure - just if you read the question, you are right. BUT if U want to argue with your comrades about numbers U need more infos for a discussion. Just like how many sorties that Sqn flew to compare the losses with. Take as example 2 Sqn. with 20 losses on pilots each. Sqn.1 flew 100missions, Sqn.2 50 missions. So the lossese for Sqn.2 are more dramatic than for Sqn.1.

The same would be a question like "who's the best swimmer", so what means "best", what style? The kind the question is asked is too unprecise. (to me)

Chuck_Older
02-20-2004, 02:56 PM
You have a point, but stop thinking of battles or flights and start thinking about unit histories instead, and suddenly the question should be cut and dried. If you think of unit histories, there is no uncertainty. Until the author confirms his intent or clarifies his statements, I have to go with the words he posted. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

*****************************
from the Hundred Years war to the Crimea, from the lance and the musket and the Roman spear, to all of the men who have stood with no fear, in the service of the King~ Clash