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luckyto
12-03-2012, 06:21 PM
Let's talk, while there is still support and patches in the works, about how Poison should or should not work. What constitutes skill in applying Poison? Is it simply landing a poison or getting away cleanly? Does having a poisoned target run crazily after you for a stun affect gameplay, etc? What changes, if any should be made?

Discuss.

Evil 5teven
12-03-2012, 06:37 PM
Well....certainly if you want to keep it realistic...I guess you shouldn't be able to do anything with poison applied...since you'd be so weak and confused or whatever.

But, Poison is supposed to be used stealthily. Meaning to SB + Poison and then just standing around, should definitely have it's downside...being that, that you can be stunned.

BigUrn
12-03-2012, 06:43 PM
Poison should only be patched in team games such as in manhunt imo so I voted for other. Not patch it so you can't stun but patch it to where your so called teammates can't take it on purpose. Many including I have brought this up a mod once explained to me that poison is a gamble which it is accidents happen on team games where your teammates can accidentally steal your poison kill but 9/10 times it's some greedy noob who sees the poison drop waits a sec maybe get his focus and says in his mind even though he is poisoned I going to be greedy and kill him as I only care about my score

Upinya Slayin
12-03-2012, 06:47 PM
Well....certainly if you want to keep it realistic...I guess you shouldn't be able to do anything with poison applied...since you'd be so weak and confused or whatever.

But, Poison is supposed to be used stealthily. Meaning to SB + Poison and then just standing around, should definitely have it's downside...being that, that you can be stunned.

I don't mind the fact that a poisoned player can still stun you. What i don't liek is how somebody can "steal" your poisoned kill. I don't think poisoned players should be allowed to be killed by someone else. This is why i never use it in manhunt, and in deathmatch i never use it unless i'm the only person on that target. and even then i've had a 2nd player spawn on the guy i poisoned and kill right away

cruzateu
12-03-2012, 06:51 PM
I don`t want it to change. And it won`t, we have a challenge of stunning/killing after being poisoned.

I Emerge I
12-03-2012, 06:58 PM
I don't really want it to be changed in FFA game types not including assassinate , but for manhunt where's there's a lot a killing going on i think when someone's poisend they shouldn't be treated as dead and not be able to stun or be killed.

cr0vean
12-03-2012, 07:14 PM
I am not 100% sure about this but it seems to be this way after a bit of testing.
There is one thing which can be easily exploited and can only be stopped by an early smoke which needs to be removed from the game. I don't know if this was in the game before the patch that removed drop stuns, but it needs to be taken out since it does not require any skill to use poison that way.
If you run around on the rooftops like the maniacs in the multiplayer trailers always do and jump towards you locked target on the ground you just need to spam poison and you'll get the kill easily. Isn't Poison supposed to be one of the stealthiest ways to kill someone?
Well, this might be more about the lack of drop stuns being in the game, either way it needs to be fixed.

DayusMakhina
12-03-2012, 07:47 PM
Those that don't want poisoned targets to be able to be killed by anyone else should be ashamed of themselves... how easy do you want to make the game? With no kind of risk involved Poison would be nothing more than a regular score booster.

Equally in no circumstances should someone who has been poisoned not be able to do anything at all, that would just reward the obvious poisoners rather than those that use it stealthily and cannot be stunned by their target because their target doesn't know who they are.

As is is perfect.

BigUrn
12-03-2012, 07:58 PM
On team games poison gets to the point where why use it some greedy teammate will just kill it. So we are suppose to take the risk of our teammates being greedy selfish players...got it

Upinya Slayin
12-03-2012, 08:03 PM
Those that don't want poisoned targets to be able to be killed by anyone else should be ashamed of themselves... how easy do you want to make the game? With no kind of risk involved Poison would be nothing more than a regular score booster.

Equally in no circumstances should someone who has been poisoned not be able to do anything at all, that would just reward the obvious poisoners rather than those that use it stealthily and cannot be stunned by their target because their target doesn't know who they are.

As is is perfect.

In some game modes, it makes poison uselss. espicially team modes where a teammate will run and take the kill (manhunt espcially)
I only fins it usefull in deathmatch personally in which case i only use it if i'm the only one on my target, but even then after a posion i've seen my target get a new persuer who is right next to them and kills them be4 poison works.

It sucked getting a perfect poison kill to have it stolen

Free_Hidings
12-03-2012, 08:22 PM
It sucks having poison stolen but that is the whole risk / reward thing about it. If you get 300 extra points and the kill is guarenteed that's BS in my opinion. Poison is perfect as is. If anything a poisoned target should be able to stun untill they die (encourage stealth play) but it is pretty much perfect how it is.

The only thing I would change is: MAKE THE POISON ICON BIGGER / COLOUR IT GREEN.

This will help prevent "accidents"

If you have *******s on your team who deliberately steal, get a new team or don't use poison. Adapt to the game, don't expect the game to adapt to you.

luckyto
12-03-2012, 08:28 PM
My main gripe is in FFA. I can casually pass by my target, poison them, walk away without them having a clue, and get almost 5-10 steps away ---- at which point they realize it, and coming running at me trying to get a stun; which then translates to me running and climbing boxes and thus giving myself away to my 1,2,3,4 pursuers. I just feel that if I'm close enough to land a poison, that should be enough --- or at least shorten the window they have to stun me.

Free_Hidings
12-03-2012, 08:33 PM
I know what you mean, that's fair... But I still think it's better as it is. Maybe letting them stun till death is too much, but they should be able to stun for a while after poison, maybe untill the green screen. (I think that's how it is anyway) At least that's one way to get a lil back at osb focus poisoners. Interception definately needs to stay.

ThaFazz
12-03-2012, 08:37 PM
The only thing that should be patched is in assassinate when I poison my target then they kill me right after.

Free_Hidings
12-03-2012, 08:40 PM
The only thing that should be patched is in assassinate when I poison my target then they kill me right after.

Even if you don't release your lock? ( I have played literally less than an hour of assassinate in AC3 so I am clueless)

stinks8
12-03-2012, 08:42 PM
I say leave it alone, the more stuff Ubi tries to "fix" the more broken in general the game becomes.

luckyto
12-03-2012, 08:51 PM
stinks8 --- LOL


I know what you mean, that's fair... But I still think it's better as it is. Maybe letting them stun till death is too much, but they should be able to stun for a while after poison, maybe untill the green screen. (I think that's how it is anyway) At least that's one way to get a lil back at osb focus poisoners. Interception definately needs to stay.

I'll work with whatever. I see the argument for allowing a stun.

I just thought it worked great in ACR. Poison was about the only thing that last patch did right, IMO.

Drakuaza
12-03-2012, 09:13 PM
You all are missing the obvious.

Poison is completely useless in team modes, not because getting intercepted, but because of the points.

Teammate uses poison, all of us see, the kill will be about 750 points-800 or so.

The poisoned guy, knowing we wont kill him, runs after the 4 of us, neating 4 stuns, and maybe, a 550 streak or just 1 250.

Lets see, we make 750 points/800.
He makes 1050/1350

Was it worth it? no.

Poison is useless because 90% of the time the opposing team will make more points than your punny poison.
If you poison them in team modes, they should not be able to stun anymore.

I'm fine with it on ffa. Since those that OSB need punishment.

luckyto
12-03-2012, 09:33 PM
Punching OSBrs is the only good thing about it. A very good thing, but still, I liked ACR better.

And yes, Drakuaza, that's why I simply won't use it on Team Modes at all.

Free_Hidings
12-03-2012, 09:59 PM
You all are missing the obvious.

Poison is completely useless in team modes, not because getting intercepted, but because of the points.

Teammate uses poison, all of us see, the kill will be about 750 points-800 or so.

The poisoned guy, knowing we wont kill him, runs after the 4 of us, neating 4 stuns, and maybe, a 550 streak or just 1 250.

Lets see, we make 750 points/800.
He makes 1050/1350

Was it worth it? no.

Poison is useless because 90% of the time the opposing team will make more points than your punny poison.
If you poison them in team modes, they should not be able to stun anymore.

I'm fine with it on ffa. Since those that OSB need punishment.

A valid point, but not every encounter will result in the whole team standing around the poisoned target. For one, all you need to do is grab onto a wall to be stun proof. But sometimes you will find yourself in a situation where you can use Disguise and then poison 1 target and kill the other, resulting is a solid increase of score with no stuns. Not likely against better players probably but posion still has its place in team modes, definately.

Strongly disagree that they shouldn't be able to stun. That's part of the risk / reward of poison.

BigUrn
12-03-2012, 11:26 PM
If I see my teammate got a poison I don't stand around him waiting for him to clock me I get away and move to my next target sounds simple enough. I usually net around 1200 or so when I poison not exactly chump change so the people I play with understand sometimes you got to take one for the team. Poison is only useless in "random" team modes when playing with people you know nothing about or "Pug" teams. Bottom line if you see a poison do the smart thing run out the way and let him die in peace

CerealAssassin
12-03-2012, 11:35 PM
i like it how it is now

Carbiner
12-03-2012, 11:47 PM
Works fine, first time Poison doesn't seem all that OP in low scoring games, remains a poor choice except for variety in high scoring modes.

n00bfi_97
12-03-2012, 11:53 PM
Why are people talking about Poison?


You all are missing the obvious.

Poison is completely useless in team modes, not because getting intercepted, but because of the points.

Teammate uses poison, all of us see, the kill will be about 750 points-800 or so.

The poisoned guy, knowing we wont kill him, runs after the 4 of us, neating 4 stuns, and maybe, a 550 streak or just 1 250.

Lets see, we make 750 points/800.
He makes 1050/1350

Was it worth it? no.

Poison is useless because 90% of the time the opposing team will make more points than your punny poison.
If you poison them in team modes, they should not be able to stun anymore.

I'm fine with it on ffa. Since those that OSB need punishment.

Not the game's fault you're **** at stealth.

luckyto
12-03-2012, 11:57 PM
Why are people talking about Poison?

Judging by the 2:1 margin, for no reason at all.

And because it's more fun than talking about smoke bombs. :) Or drop stuns. Maybe there should be a Glimmer thread.

Evil 5teven
12-04-2012, 06:39 AM
Any of you crafted poison for delay? I crafted it for full delay, killing my target in (i think 3.5secs). That is quite quick and most of the times I get the kill before another greedy player tries to steal it from me.

When it does not work, it's because I misused it, meaning, in the middle of Fort Wolcott, with a smoke bomb, on high profile, and 4 other players stalking each other in assassinate...

So yeah, Poisoned targets should be able to be killed / stunned, and they should be able to stun / kill.

It works just fine ;)

B-L-A-D-E-S
12-04-2012, 10:46 AM
Now this is a topic I have been meaning to address for quite some time. It also happens to be very personal to me. IF I take my time to approach my target and drop my poison why should they be given such a huge window to stun me once the poison has been dropped already? Most of the time, by the time you drop your poison your pursuer is already close to you, so getting stunned is almost certain death, not only are you kneeling on the ground, but the time you are stunned seems to last an eternity, especially when you hear your whispers. Moreover if you get a good poison kill, there is a good chance you will end up taking the lead...being in the lead yields more pursuers, you think im sticking around to ask questions? Nope, I am gonna break away from the other players and will be on my way to setup/ play my defense. The targets are given plenty of time to defend themselves when they hear the whispers (Do we need to change the whispers to a fire alarm sound?). OK, OK, If you want to make it so the game has mercy on the new players and there must be some comprimise then give them a split second to get the stun off (1 second). Believe me, when they keep dropping like a sack of potatoes from getting poisoned all the time, they will eventually learn to pay attention to their whispers.

Secondly, and gosh this is going to hurt typing but, it should remain the same where poison can be intercepted.

So the way I imagine it, it would look something like this:

1. The poisoned target should not be able to stun or be given a 1 second window in order to get a stun off.
2. It should remain where poison can be intercepted.
3. Poisoned targets should be able to be stunned.
4. Poisoned targets should be able to kill their targets up until 1 second before their death.
5. Now here is the tricky part. Poisoned targets should be given a chance to contest a kill if the poison is being intercepted, yes even if its by the player that dropped the poison. My only concern is that I have no idea if stun and honorable death are intertwined with eachother in the program. If they are not then suggestions 1-5 are possible. If they are then it would always revert back to a stun as long as the person who dropped the poison is still in range, so this wouldn't be possible. The reason I state it's tricky is because you do not want to completely remove the option of a poisoned target from defending themselves if it is going to lead to a cheap way for interceptors to get clean kills based solely on the fact that the person poisoned was not given an opportunity to challenge it.

Hmm, Ok its 5:00 a.m. and this is turning into a mindbender for me. Might have to edit it, but feel free to share your thoughts anyway.

B-L-A-D-E-S
12-04-2012, 11:04 AM
The only thing I would change is: MAKE THE POISON ICON BIGGER / COLOUR IT GREEN.

This will help prevent "accidents"

Instead of making the poison icon bigger and coloring it green... I suggest placing a prompt over the head of a poisoned target that reads "Quit Game?" That should keep those filthy varments off my poison. Seriously though, I like the idea. maybe make it just a tad bit bigger, and dye it a color. Green is not a bad color, although it makes you think why green is the universal color for poison anyway...now that I think about it. Maybe make dropped poison and poisoned dart different colors? I have to be honest though, I only state that because I know poisoned dart only yields 250 points so I am sure I would be able to get something higher than 250 if i went in for a kill. It wouldn't be kill stealing though! Ok fine, you win. It would be kill stealing but it would be for the greater good of the team! :)

CRANK 132
12-04-2012, 11:29 AM
You all are missing the obvious.

Poison is completely useless in team modes, not because getting intercepted, but because of the points.

Teammate uses poison, all of us see, the kill will be about 750 points-800 or so.

The poisoned guy, knowing we wont kill him, runs after the 4 of us, neating 4 stuns, and maybe, a 550 streak or just 1 250.

Lets see, we make 750 points/800.
He makes 1050/1350

Was it worth it? no.

Poison is useless because 90% of the time the opposing team will make more points than your punny poison.
If you poison them in team modes, they should not be able to stun anymore.

I'm fine with it on ffa. Since those that OSB need punishment.

You have a point, but if you are playing with a decent team or other clan members the person poisoned will not have a clue who had poisoned them, nor will they know who the other pursuers are and so they will net 0 points and your team will net a lot. Especially if the poison is combined with variety bonuses or it is done right - Poison, Hidden, Incognito, Focus, Assist and Variety makes for one hell of a kill score.

AlphaChaos
12-04-2012, 11:41 AM
I know what you mean, that's fair... But I still think it's better as it is. Maybe letting them stun till death is too much, but they should be able to stun for a while after poison, maybe untill the green screen. (I think that's how it is anyway) At least that's one way to get a lil back at osb focus poisoners. Interception definately needs to stay.

I definitely agree with you there Free. Poison is great how it is, I just wish the time duration was changed without even crafting it. It's just not worth using when the time duration is 100 seconds -_-. But! We always use it for trolling in AA ;D

snipertempah10
12-04-2012, 02:18 PM
IMO it should not matter that the cooldown is 100 seconds. For variety purposes I use it only for my first kill (where possible) in FFA games and then switch ability sets as soon as I die. There is no value in crafting for anything other than the points increase. As far as the ability in general goes, it is fine as is.

I remember getting a few mails of abuse from a Prestige 60 player for accidentally taking his poison kill during a melee in Chest Capture. Prestige 60? Laughable that he got so miffed at losing around 700 points at THAT level. Reinforced my opinion that poison is for FFA games - if I am intercepted then it is mostly my own stupid fault. In team modes it is "use at your own risk".

SixKeys
12-04-2012, 02:22 PM
Poison is fine in AC3 thanks to the merged kill/stun button. It's supposed to high risk-high rewards. If you're being obvious enough that your target can spot you after you've poisoned them, they have the right to stun you. If you're sneaky enough that they can't tell who their killer was, you deserved those points and shouldn't be able to be stunned by your target going on a random stunning rampage like in ACR.

B-L-A-D-E-S
12-04-2012, 08:49 PM
I see people stating that if you are stealthy enough, you are able to get off the poison and your target wouldn't know who poisoned him, this may be true if you guys are surrounded by a few NPC's. But what about the times where your target is out in the open with noone around them, it would make it extremely difficult to make it out of there without getting stunned, and near impossible against veteran players. The whispers get so loud when you are on top of your target, that, coupled with the fact that people are walking around slightly paranoid anyway and its almost certain you are just giving free stuns away to the target. Even if this scenario was played out in real life, the killer wouldnt hesitate to strike first if his target so much as blinked in his direction once he pinched someone with poison. Loving this thread though, good stuff.

B-L-A-D-E-S
12-04-2012, 08:55 PM
My main gripe is in FFA. I can casually pass by my target, poison them, walk away without them having a clue, and get almost 5-10 steps away ---- at which point they realize it, and coming running at me trying to get a stun; which then translates to me running and climbing boxes and thus giving myself away to my 1,2,3,4 pursuers. I just feel that if I'm close enough to land a poison, that should be enough --- or at least shorten the window they have to stun me.

I didnt even see this, but its kinda in the direction im leaning to as well.

Evil 5teven
12-05-2012, 01:56 AM
Craft poison for delay!!!

If you are complaining that it takes too long to take effect, ffs, craft it so that the target is killed in 3 seconds! That is almost instant!

Free_Hidings
12-05-2012, 07:31 AM
I definitely agree with you there Free. Poison is great how it is, I just wish the time duration was changed without even crafting it. It's just not worth using when the time duration is 100 seconds -_-. But! We always use it for trolling in AA ;D

Yeah the cooldown is a bit much but I don't rely on abilities in FFA so much in AC3 so it's not so bad :)

indulgence82
12-05-2012, 08:31 AM
I would like to see poison edited only in man hunt to make it so the poisoned target and poisoner are the only 2 people that can interact. Translation? Other teammates cannot kill the poisoned target and likewise (to be fair)cannot be stunned by that player either. However they can still stun the person that poisoned them and the poisoner can still screw up and kill the person they poisoned as well. That way the inherent risk would be being stunned before or after the poison without the rage inducing (and fight starting) poison steal by either an inexperienced or selfish player. Why not in domination or artifact assault? Because quite simply I view poison to be a selfish ability in those 2 modes. In artifact assault it holds no redeeming qualities beyond individual score and can actually hurt the team by having an artifact drop near an opponent who picks it up for a much easier score. Likewise in domination a poisoned player can remain in a territory just long enough to gain control of a territory and help set up teammates to maintain the control over it.

luckyto
12-05-2012, 05:10 PM
Craft poison for delay!!!

If you are complaining that it takes too long to take effect, ffs, craft it so that the target is killed in 3 seconds! That is almost instant!

Yes, but at 200 points... what are the crafting options?

I just liked ACR better. It was one of the few things ACR did right. But whatever.

Jaanii95
12-05-2012, 05:49 PM
Poison is fine as it's. It doesn't really matter if you get stun as long as you get your poison of you still get your points.

Evil 5teven
12-05-2012, 07:21 PM
Yes, but at 200 points... what are the crafting options?

I just liked ACR better. It was one of the few things ACR did right. But whatever.

Cooldown, score bonus and delay.

I go for score bonus mainly when I play wolfpack or assassinate...but for fast paced matches i'd hit at least 1 point in delay.