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xcamthemandudex
11-19-2012, 08:17 AM
I came to this theory exactly at the end of the game. I believe that the origins of the Assassins and the Templars are followers of the teachings of Minerva or Juno. If not Minerva and Juno being the creators of the two secret societies.

As most people know, Minerva is the goddess of knowledge. Knowledge, along with freedom, is what the Assassins seek, and they are often looking for wisdom. In the game -- here come the spoilers -- Minerva comes out against Juno because Juno will attempt to control the world. Obviously Minerva has proven herself to be aligned with freedom at all costs. This led me to believe that the Assassins were from the remanence of what Minerva believed.

For Juno, she is basically the protector goddess (equated to Hera). Which explains why she was so determined at preventing the apocalyptic event from happening. Anyways, in the game she for controlling the human race in exchange for saving it. This is very much so the ways of the Templars. That is to say that the Templars wanted to control the human race in order to save it from itself.

So that being said, I believe that the two are the direct or indirect creators of the Assassins and the Templars. Which would explain the origins of these two old societies. Like it was said, if you believe the stories the two groups are as old as time. What do you guys think?




On another note: I think that Desmond and his ancestors are possible descendants Tinia, because Tinia in his mythology was accompanied by an eagle. The eagle is a very notable symbol of Desmond's heritage. Tinia was also known by the Tin, which means "the combination of power and wisdom," again this is commonly seen in Desmond's heritage.

I think this is also what made Desmond so special, literally to the point to where he was the only hope for the world. Tinia is part of the triad involving Uni (Etruscan equivalent of Juno) and Minerva. I think a descendant who completed the triad was needed.





Disclaimer: I am not saying this is absolutely correct, or that I am correct, these are just my theories and nothing more. My reference material comes from in-game content and Wikipedia.

Assassin_M
11-19-2012, 08:26 AM
Finally a thought evoking threat..

Allow me some time before I get back to you and take part in an Exciting discussion :D For it is late and I`m tired:p

Great Thread, mate;)

*Applause*

xcamthemandudex
11-19-2012, 08:48 AM
Thank you very much. I always try to put great effort in my threads.

Like I said, I am not trying to put my theory off as a fact. I am only speculating and I'd love to hear everyone's own theory.

scooper121s
11-19-2012, 09:06 AM
Amazing theory, truly one to think on, I agree with M (By the way M, what does that mew Sig mean) I think in the fantasy world of assassins creed, that is a very valid theory, I vote yes on this theory, hopefully this will be confirmed (or perhaps disproved) in future games.

xcamthemandudex
11-19-2012, 09:09 AM
Perhaps in the movie that I hear is being made, or supposedly being made?

scooper121s
11-19-2012, 09:13 AM
Perhaps in the movie that I hear is being made, or supposedly being made?
It's all but confirmed it's being made, there used to be a sticky about it but it was unstikyed so they could of cancelled it, who knows, we will just have to find out Amico mio/ Amica mia (Depending on your gender)

xcamthemandudex
11-19-2012, 09:17 AM
I'm just excited for people's theories. It always makes me happy when I get to read people's views on what could be true or false in the game.

Edit: and it would be "Amico mio" for me.

scooper121s
11-19-2012, 09:26 AM
I'm just excited for people's theories. It always makes me happy when I get to read people's views on what could be true or false in the game.

Edit: and it would be "Amico mio" for me.
Just was tring not to be sexist, I was reading a thread and apparantly more women play the AC games than men (I'm slowly reading it, 52 pages jeez) and in another forum site I embaressed myself by saying she when she was a he :(

pirate1802
11-19-2012, 09:28 AM
apparantly more women play the AC games than men
:eek:

scooper121s
11-19-2012, 09:36 AM
:eek:
That was my reaction:p

NEURON BOMB
11-19-2012, 12:00 PM
This sounds valid and amazing.

LightRey
11-19-2012, 01:01 PM
Nice theory, but I think you're pretty much completely wrong. First of all, the Templars don't seem to be fond at all of TWCB, Juno or otherwise. They even go so far as to suggest that part of their Eye Abstergo plan is to "awaken in humans what should've been ours from the moment of our creation", which is something Juno strongly opposes. In fact, Juno voices that the creation of humanity itself was a mistake to begin with.

Juno wants control, yes, but not to create peace, but to enslave.

dchil279
11-19-2012, 02:17 PM
Nice theory, but I think you're pretty much completely wrong. First of all, the Templars don't seem to be fond at all of TWCB, Juno or otherwise. They even go so far as to suggest that part of their Eye Abstergo plan is to "awaken in humans what should've been ours from the moment of our creation", which is something Juno strongly opposes. In fact, Juno voices that the creation of humanity itself was a mistake to begin with.

Juno wants control, yes, but not to create peace, but to enslave.
But the templars don't mind slavery as a means for peace. Maybe Juno isn't the creator of the templars, but their philosophies very much align with each other. The option Minerva gives Desmond at the end is without a doubt the "assassin" ending because many people will die, but humanity will come out better because of it, only to fall apart later and require the work of another assassin later. Juno's ending (the one that Desmond chooses) is the templar ending because the world is saved, but in the process we all will be enslaved.

that tid bit about Desmond being related to Tinia is also a very interesting bit. I was wondering why he wasn't there at the end of the game.

A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n
11-19-2012, 02:32 PM
The Templars are AGAINST Slavery, at least cruel slavery. The devs have said as much and have shown that in AC1 and AC3. What the Templars want to do is establish order, which is NOT slavery. There IS a difference. Absolute Order means directing every single action of peoples' lives. Some may call that slavery, but that is regulation to the extreme. The reason the Templars are okay with brainwashing people is because they want to suppress that impulse to be violent. They ultimately want peace. I think that the Templars and Assassins may have begun because of Juno and Minerva. Doesn't mean that they are still aware of them or that they are directly following them. But I think their ideologies originated with TWCB, and on that point the OP is correct, I think.

LightRey
11-19-2012, 05:02 PM
But the templars don't mind slavery as a means for peace. Maybe Juno isn't the creator of the templars, but their philosophies very much align with each other. The option Minerva gives Desmond at the end is without a doubt the "assassin" ending because many people will die, but humanity will come out better because of it, only to fall apart later and require the work of another assassin later. Juno's ending (the one that Desmond chooses) is the templar ending because the world is saved, but in the process we all will be enslaved.

that tid bit about Desmond being related to Tinia is also a very interesting bit. I was wondering why he wasn't there at the end of the game.
That's not the point. Juno is not doing it for the good of humanity or for progress. She even speaks of vindication. She's not doing it because of some profound vision and the very last thing she wants is for humanity to achieve anything. The Templars don't even want all of humanity to be controlled, they want everyone but them to be controlled.

With the Assassins and the Templars the goals are the same but the means are different (peace through freedom vs. peace through control). With Juno and the Templars the means are the same but the goals are different (vindication through control vs. peace through control).

The Templars do not care for Juno and Juno does not care for them. They have similar views on the "right way" for the world to work, but for different reasons and where this one thing they want is similar, many aspects of them differ.

xcamthemandudex
11-19-2012, 08:09 PM
I think that the Templars and Assassins may have begun because of Juno and Minerva. Doesn't mean that they are still aware of them or that they are directly following them. But I think their ideologies originated with TWCB, and on that point the OP is correct, I think.

That is what I was thinking, because as far as we know, the origins aren't mentioned by either. So I think they have existed for so long that they don't even remember what started them. I just think they know what they believe and that is enough for them.

vivaxardas
11-19-2012, 09:30 PM
Well, I like to think that templars and assassins are descendants of human hybrids. That's why they have knowledge of existence of TWCB. But it always seemed to me that humans under TWCB were not just slaves, but more like herds of animals, and they eventually rebelled. Later the hybrids split because they had different views of social development - assassins wanted a normal social evolution, when majority of people would be agree how much control and how much freedom is good for a society, and templars quite realistically do not believe that in a wold with scarcity of resources, when it would be never enough for everyone, a normal social evolution would ever bring peace. They have a point here, btw. So for them some involuntary behavior modification is the only way to go.
About goddesses: Templars ask "Father of Understanding" to guide them. Is it a real thing for them or just a tradition, I do not know. But somehow I doubt that the templars would listen to either Minerva or Juno.

Torvaldesq
11-20-2012, 02:11 AM
The idea that they're the descendants of Tinia is a cool idea. I wouldn't be surprised at all though if the Eagle thing wasn't intended that way initially and it just happens to be a happy coincidence. (I think initially the Eagle symoblism had to do with the fact that you climbed to incredible heights in the game to look down on the world, and like an Eagle could lock onto your prey with scary precision).

I don't believe the idea of Juno and Minerva starting the Assassin's and Templars or being the foundation of their belief system. It's worth remembering that the Assassins were just their own little land and people, with a deadly caste of fighters who protected them, when they started out. Al Mualim was a Templar who went rogue. That's the real start of the Assassins as their own anti-Templar group.

The Templars could have been tipped off to the precursor civilization any number of ways. I don't think they're particularly married to Juno, or that the Assassins were particularly married to Minerva. You got the very distinct sense that the communication with both of them was something that was shocking to all humans involved in the time of Ezio or afterward.

I very much liked Haytham's comments when you fought him at the end in AC 3. I liked how he said that the Templars will always exist because they don't need to indoctrinate someone with a creed - they just need the world to be as it is.

xcamthemandudex
11-20-2012, 06:40 AM
The Templars were a religious order before they learned about the Pieces of Eden, which then made them question gods. So it isn't unlikely that some of them would believe in gods or the power of the Ones Who Came Before.

Does anyone have their own theories about how the orders came to be?

Assassin_M
11-20-2012, 07:12 AM
The Templars were a religious order before they learned about the Pieces of Eden, which then made them question gods. So it isn't unlikely that some of them would believe in gods or the power of the Ones Who Came Before.

Does anyone have their own theories about how the orders came to be?
The Templar Idealogy, if not the name "Templar" itself, has existed since Biblical times. They are the Descendants of Cain who killed his Brother Abel, because he was in Possession of a Piece of Eden. Now I do not know if that means that Abel was an Assassin, but it is Confirmed that Cain started the Templars.

They existed through various Entities during History. They were reorganized as a Religious Order and formally became the Order of the Knights Templar in 1129, because they needed the Church as an ally.

Scystab
11-20-2012, 01:28 PM
Finaly an interesting and solid theory with some rational references to the story :) this will keep me thinking for a while now :)

xcamthemandudex
11-21-2012, 06:46 AM
The Templar Idealogy, if not the name "Templar" itself, has existed since Biblical times. They are the Descendants of Cain who killed his Brother Abel, because he was in Possession of a Piece of Eden. Now I do not know if that means that Abel was an Assassin, but it is Confirmed that Cain started the Templars.

They existed through various Entities during History. They were reorganized as a Religious Order and formally became the Order of the Knights Templar in 1129, because they needed the Church as an ally.

So you believe they are not as old as we were lead to believe?

pirate1802
11-21-2012, 06:58 AM
So you believe they are not as old as we were lead to believe?

Going by the Abstergo dossiers in ACR MP, yes.

Assassin_M
11-21-2012, 08:50 AM
So you believe they are not as old as we were lead to believe?
Yes and No..

The Ideology probably existed far longer than Cain and Abel, but the "Templars" themselves were started by Cain..

LightRey
11-21-2012, 12:55 PM
So you believe they are not as old as we were lead to believe?
M is almost quoting William there. Bother orders have existed in "one form or another" for millennia. The Assassin order and the Templar order are both just another form, a continuation, of more ancient orders or groups with the same goals and ideals.

xcamthemandudex
11-24-2012, 05:48 PM
I see what y'all are saying.