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View Full Version : Mustangs ever get cannons?



choxaway
05-31-2004, 04:14 PM
Just wondered if they were ever fitted with cannons as they did with Spits. I know the .50s aren't considered wonderful in the game but in real life did they do a great job or were cannons considered a possible addition?


http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/choxaway/IL2FB/6c05075b.gif

choxaway
05-31-2004, 04:14 PM
Just wondered if they were ever fitted with cannons as they did with Spits. I know the .50s aren't considered wonderful in the game but in real life did they do a great job or were cannons considered a possible addition?


http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/choxaway/IL2FB/6c05075b.gif

DaBallz
05-31-2004, 04:22 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by choxaway:
Just wondered if they were ever fitted with cannons as they did with Spits. I know the .50s aren't considered wonderful in the game but in real life did they do a great job or were cannons considered a possible addition?

Yes, There seem to be photo's of early British
P-51s with cannon. There seem to be a few
photo's floating around with mixed armament on
later P-51s.

I doubt it will be modeled. Even then, Oleg
will see to it that the wing fall off
when they are fired.

Da....

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-31-2004, 05:47 PM
I dont think Oleg will model things that was not used in frequently. Like HVARS for Mustangs and P-47s. Like G-suits, and gyro sights for P-38s.

But he will use planes that never flew in the war and some that never flew at all.
Does that make sense? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

=S=

http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/images/hellcat_head_short.jpg

www.vmf-214.net (http://www.vmf-214.net)
(The Original BlackSheep Squadron of IL-2/FB/AEP/PF)

LeadSpitter_
05-31-2004, 07:40 PM
like the i185 ta152 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It would be nice to have the a36 mustang for the brits. I would also like to see the rocket tubes added to the b and c model.

And I would like to see them correct to payload of the p47. 2 x1000lb and centerline could only hold 1x500lb

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

LuftLuver
05-31-2004, 08:20 PM
I really thought we would see this model. 4 x 20mm Hispanos. Should cut any enemy plane into tiny bits.

http://www.ww2guide.com/p51_5.jpg

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
"All your bases are belong to us."

wayno7777
05-31-2004, 08:30 PM
Yeah, the A-36 had cannon I think. Have to check with my Mustang book.

World War Two Weekend June 4-6, 2004 Reading, PA
Over 70 planes including a P-38 (hopin' for GG)
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Gen. Carl Spaatz: "I'd rather have an airplane that goes like hell and has a few things wrong with it than one that won't go like hell and has a few things wrong with it."
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

NegativeGee
05-31-2004, 08:32 PM
Don't you mean the YP-80 Leadspitter?

At least the Ta-152 did see combat use in WW2.


"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Günther Rall

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VW-IceFire
05-31-2004, 09:28 PM
Its just a matter of having the right documents or the aircraft modeled.

The G-Suits Oleg asked for any information the community can get on them for potential modeling. Apparently that passed by way too many people but the offer was made and I'm sure it still stands. He said he'd model them if the numbers and capabilities were dug up.

A Mustang with cannons would be great and yes it would cut fighters to ribbons fairly quickly. It was, however, used mostly as a close air support weapon and not a fighter. The Allison engine it was using had problems and it was certainly not the definitive version of the fighter. There was efforts to model the A-36 (not with cannons at the time) which is essentially a Mustang version...we may yet see it but I haven't heard word for a while.

Now I have no idea why we have no HVARs on the Mustang...it should have them. Not on the P-47 version...no HVAR's were in use till the D-30 as I recall.

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Frenchy-
05-31-2004, 11:48 PM
p51H http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

tttiger
06-01-2004, 12:11 AM
The 406th Fighter Group was the first P-47 unit to receive HVARs, in the fall of 1944. They were in common use by the Battle of the Bulge (16 Dec 44).

So was napalm.

I don't know about G-suits, but P-47 pilots routinely unbuckled their pants and unbuttoned their shirts when they flew high alt bomber escort missions and it was very painful if clothing was not loosened. In those unpressurized cockpits, their bodies would swell up. Now there's one ya never will see modeled http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

Giganoni
06-01-2004, 01:14 AM
Maybe you'll see it in BoB, because I bet it will eventually have lots of British a/c that weren't in "The Battle of Britian".

http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v225/giganoni/IL2/giganoni2.jpg

LeadSpitter_
06-01-2004, 02:16 AM
NegativeGee yes the yp80 too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif go229 and he162 while we are at it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BTW show me one document about the ta152 shooting down enemy aircraft http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have the one log of the flight over berlin. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

Art-J
06-01-2004, 02:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
BTW show me one document about the ta152 shooting down enemy aircraft http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have the one log of the flight over berlin. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, c'mon... One, even experimental but still - operational unit (JG 301) was at least flying over combat zone, and this ace fella, Josef Keil, even claimed some victories in it. I do not know wether they were confirmed or not, but all of it is more visible war effort than YP-80s achievments http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

P.S. - if I remember correctly, there was a guy modelling A-36... Anyone knows any news about this project?

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Haribo-Zeke_small_3_txt.jpg

IL2-chuter
06-01-2004, 03:29 AM
Feb 21, B-17 kill over Berlin (first kill)

Mar 1, P-51 shot down over Sachau by Keil.

Apr 10, Sachau, 15 Jugs engaged by Keil, 1 shot down.

Apr 13, 4 Mustangs engaged near Wittenberg by Keil, none shot down.

Apr ??, 4 152's vs 4 Jugs near Welzow, 2 Jugs and 1 152 down.

Apr 24, Smithsonian's 152 flown by Loos downs 2 Yak 9's over Berlin.

Apr 30, Loos in same 152 downs 1 Yak 9 over Berlin.

Thats all the fleshed out engagements I have in my references. There were lots more sorties listed and a few engagements noted without kills either side. I'm probably gonna have to get better 152 book(s). Sounds interesting.

By the way, at least two 152C were listed on strength with JG301 before end of Apr. though not known if they engaged enemy.

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"I fly only Full Real in Il2 Forgotten Battles." -Mark Donohue

Brotrob
06-01-2004, 03:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
BTW show me one document about the ta152 shooting down enemy aircraft http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have the one log of the flight over berlin. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello,
the most popular incident where the Ta engaged Enemy-Fighters was the one with Willy Reschke and british Tempest :

http://hem.passagen.se/galland/Reschke.html

It is often quoted as a proof for the good maneuverability of the Ta at treetop-level.

Best Regards,

BLUE_Brotrob

nixon-fiend.
06-01-2004, 04:29 AM
what's wrong with having the he162??

Oh and the A36 modeller dropped the project,

ASM 1
06-01-2004, 04:39 AM
My fav Ta 152 story is where Kurt Tank got bounced by P51's - Switched on the MW-50 and left them behind in a cloud of blue smoke http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

Back on topic..yeah it would be nice if the 'Stang got cannons - the &lt;censored&gt; are a weebit weak for my taste http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif especially compared to the german loadouts - even the spit has more teeth. That said, the mustang is a nice biird to fly, just a bugger to knock anything (big) down with it although fighters tend to snap quite easily....

S!

Andrew

http://home.comcast.net/~nate.r/ta152Hns-2.jpg

choxaway
06-01-2004, 10:13 AM
Knew I could rely on the gang to come up with answers. Thanks.


http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/choxaway/IL2FB/6c05075b.gif

LilHorse
06-01-2004, 11:07 AM
The Mustang IA was fitted with 4 Hispano 20mm cannons. It was a P-51A production run altered for the British, but I believe some actually made their way into USAAF service as well. The paint job on the one above has U.S. markings only for transport purposes I believe.

The A-36 dive bomber version of the Mustang was not equiped with cannon.

Platypus_1.JaVA
06-01-2004, 11:58 AM
There where 150 cannon armed Mustang Ia's build. 93 of them went to Great Brittain. However, those early Mustangs with their birdcage cockpit, looked alot like German Messerschmidts, wich was very annoying.

Source: http://www.flightjournal.com/plane_profiles/p-51_mustang/p-51_mustang_history.asp

Anyways, I think this plane will be taken into FB, once someone models it.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

Placed 3rd, with team, in the official european championship Il-2/FB

Art-J
06-01-2004, 12:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
The Mustang IA was fitted with 4 Hispano 20mm cannons. It was a P-51A production run altered for the British, but I believe some actually made their way into USAAF service as well.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the P-51A was another variant, armed with four .50s in wings and slightly more powerful engine. Tha cannon version You mentioned had P-51 designation (without any suffix letter), later renamed to F-6 (F-6A? not sure...) because of it's usage as photo recon plane. And You're right - some of them saw service in USAAF units over MTO.

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Haribo-Zeke_small_3_txt.jpg

LilHorse
06-01-2004, 12:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Art-J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
The Mustang IA was fitted with 4 Hispano 20mm cannons. It was a P-51A production run altered for the British, but I believe some actually made their way into USAAF service as well.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the P-51A was another variant, armed with four .50s in wings and slightly more powerful engine. Tha cannon version You mentioned had P-51 designation (without any suffix letter), later renamed to F-6 (F-6A? not sure...) because of it's usage as photo recon plane. And You're right - some of them saw service in USAAF units over MTO.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that the P-51A had 2 .50cal firing from under the chin and 4 .303cal in the wings. When I said that the Mustang IA was a P-51A I meant in very general terms. That is, an Allison powered Stang that had the 4 20mm instead of 4 .303s and 2 .50s.

horseback
06-01-2004, 01:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
The Mustang IA was fitted with 4 Hispano 20mm cannons. It was a P-51A production run altered for the British, but I believe some actually made their way into USAAF service as well. The paint job on the one above has U.S. markings only for transport purposes I believe.

The A-36 dive bomber version of the Mustang was not equiped with cannon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A minor correction- the cannon armed Mustang built to USAAF requirementswas designated the P-51. It was essentially the same as the original Mustang MK I, without the .50 MGs in the nose and wings, or the flyswatter .303s. Prop may also have been different.

The P-51A and the A-36 both went to 4x.50 cal, apparently due to the demand for the Hispanos in other, higher priority, projects. They also had a wider carburetor intake than the MK I/Ia/P-51 models, as well as mounting the pylons for drop tanks and bombs.

The riffraff amy now resume the hijacking of this thread with Ta-152 stuff...

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Art-J
06-01-2004, 03:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
I believe that the P-51A had 2 .50cal firing from under the chin and 4 .303cal in the wings. When I said that the Mustang IA was a P-51A I meant in very general terms. That is, an Allison powered Stang that had the 4 20mm instead of 4 .303s and 2 .50s.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gentlemen, I'm afraid I tend to disagree with some minor details of both previous posts. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

All right, since the production numbers, designations and equipment of Allison "Ponys" is quite embroiled, let's sume it up:

1st: Mustang I (Brit designation), NA-83 (factory number), no US designation. Guns: 4x.50 plus 4x.30. All used by Brits.

2nd: Mustang IA, NA-91, P-51 (and F-6A after mounting cameras). 4x20mm, used by both.

3rd: Mustang II, NA-97, A-36 (the one with dive brakes). 6x0.50 (two under engine, four in wings), used only by USAAF I believe.

4th: Mustang II, NA-99, P-51A. 4x0.50 (these two under the engine were removed, with dive brakes as well). Used by both.

5th and latter: all Merlin "Ponys".

For more detailed info, I strongly recommend this site:
http://www.vectorsite.net/avp511.html#m2
Also, check the main site for other versions info.

Regards http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Haribo-Zeke_small_3_txt.jpg

LilHorse
06-02-2004, 08:35 AM
Ah, OK. I stand corrected. Upon further reading, the P-51A had four .303s and four .50s.

PBNA-Boosher
06-02-2004, 08:42 AM
The P-51A was a horrible fighter, but it held its own with it's sturdy Allison engine. It was instead used as a dive bomber. It could carry 4 .50 caliber MG's in the wings, as well as 2 extra .50's or .30's under the engine pointing foward. It's designation was changed to A-36. It was only after it recieved the Merlin engine that it went back to becoming the P-51. The new prototype with the Merlin engine was named the P-51B

LilHorse
06-02-2004, 09:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
The P-51A was a horrible fighter, but it held its own with it's sturdy Allison engine. It was instead used as a dive bomber. It could carry 4 .50 caliber MG's in the wings, as well as 2 extra .50's or .30's under the engine pointing foward. It's designation was changed to A-36. It was only after it recieved the Merlin engine that it went back to becoming the P-51. The new prototype with the Merlin engine was named the P-51B<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for telling us stuff we already know. But to characterize the P-51A as a "terrible fighter" is a little extreme. There are accounts from fighter pilots who flew all variants and a good number of those said they actually preferred the performance characteristics of the P-51A over the later models. It's just that they were gasping for air at higher alts. due to the gearing of the Allison's supercharger. And high up is where the Brits and Americans needed their fighters. The A model didn't have the opportunity to find a niche the way the P-39 did. Remember the P-39 was concidered "terrible" by a lot of ppl . But look what happened when the Russians got a hold of them and used them in a low and medium alt. airwar.

PBNA-Boosher
06-02-2004, 09:08 AM
Stupid me! I'm just basically misquoting what I read about 5 years ago in some wacky book. The stuff was mostly accurate, but I guess you're right. Had it been given time to adjust to its surroundings, it would have been a good fighter.

LilHorse
06-02-2004, 09:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
Stupid me! I'm just basically misquoting what I read about 5 years ago in some wacky book. The stuff was mostly accurate, but I guess you're right. Had it been given time to adjust to its surroundings, it would have been a good fighter.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not "stupid" because you read something that may not have been entirely accurate. You just read what is a common misconception amoung the more casual aviation fans. Even in the site that ArtJ listed above it characterizes the P-40 as being "unpopular" and "no match for the LW's top fighters". Neither of these statements is very accurate.

Anytime somebody is talking about the "best" or "worst" airplanes of WWII you should remember that there was no such thing.

DuxCorvan
06-02-2004, 05:16 PM
He 162 also was deployed. It almost couldn't fly due to fuel shortages. But it's at least a documented engagement with USAAF Mustangs. The result: stalemate. But the US pilots were rather surprised of He 162 acceleration and turning abilities.

It's a pity I left my books in my parents' home... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.