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View Full Version : Peripherials required for Full Realism



99th Obsidian
03-15-2004, 09:06 AM

99th Obsidian
03-15-2004, 09:06 AM

TooCooL34
03-15-2004, 09:13 AM
Beware.
Dnmy is coming because what you listed require SKILL or should be PROFICIENT or USED TO.
Checking DARS(Dnmy Automatic Reply System).

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Zen--
03-15-2004, 09:22 AM
I don't think any of those are required specifically for full real.

I fly with a cheap 30 dollar stick and use only the hatswitch, no padlock TiR or mouselooking for me.

The one thing that I do use the heck out of is the Belkin Nostromo Speedpad N52, but that is not a FR specific device. It just frees me from having to use the KB because I can bind important keys to it and use my left hand like you would with a Hotas.

Nifty little device, works great for FPS too because it's basically nothing more than a custom KB for your left hand. Whatever keys the game uses can be programmed into it and you can also create strings of commands called macros...for example to drop all flaps, lower throttle and deploy your landing gear all at once.

-Zen-

michapma
03-15-2004, 09:28 AM
Sorry, would you please distinguish between immersion and realism? Because I think you might be confusing the concepts.

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AWL_Spinner
03-15-2004, 09:30 AM
I think the two are fairly intertwined. To be immersed in a virtual reality. Something that doesn't enhance realism would have a job to be considered immersive. What exactly would you be immersing yourself in?

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michapma
03-15-2004, 09:32 AM
Kool-Aid. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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michapma
03-15-2004, 10:04 AM
Sorry, I just felt like saying that. My distinction between immersion and "realism" is related to subjectivity. Immersion is what gives me a better feeling of "being there", really flying and being involved in combat. Realism might be more closely related to arguments about compensation for this missing set of real-life phenomena (peripheral vision, head movement, etc.). So something that could be considered a move toward realism might for me be a move away from immersion. Limited icons, for example, might conceivably help realism but reduce immersion, same with the HUD.

Along these lines, I consider the paraphernalia listed in the poll to be more closely related to immersion than realism. You might be able to acheive the same end with a trackball and with TrackIR. The "realism" of the tracking motion is not changed, but the immersion probably is.

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J30Vader
03-15-2004, 10:51 AM
Doesn't a HOTAS fly in the face of FR? No planes of that era had such a setup.

crazyivan1970
03-15-2004, 10:54 AM
All you need is a good set of eyes and situation awareness.... external stuff are secondary.

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BaldieJr
03-15-2004, 11:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J30Vader:
Doesn't a HOTAS fly in the face of FR? No planes of that era had such a setup.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hands On Throttle And Stick.

If you leave cockpit on, you'll notice that on the left, there is a throttle that you may put your left hand on, and in the center, there is a stick which you make keep your right hand on.

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BaldieJr
03-15-2004, 11:01 AM
Needs "all of the above" option http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Try this:
http://www.62ndfightingfalcons.asn.au/62ndff/projects/projects.htm

About $30 to build. Looks very comfortable.

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adlabs6
03-15-2004, 11:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
All you need is a good set of eyes and situation awareness.... external stuff are secondary.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, that's pretty much it. I'm fortunate to have one of those two requirements! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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TgD Thunderbolt56
03-15-2004, 11:27 AM
I use all of the above and I do it for immersion and simply as a hobby. I'll post some pics of my quasi-pit when I get home.

If I had to choose one over the others, I would say the one thing that has given me the most enjoyment has been the TrackIR once setup and configured properly that is.

I don't use FFB any longer simply because it's not available in my CH setup...for leftys...maybe someday.



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DONB3397
03-15-2004, 11:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zen--:
I don't think any of those are required specifically for full real.

I fly with a cheap 30 dollar stick and use only the hatswitch, no padlock TiR or mouselooking for me.

The one thing that I do use the heck out of is the Belkin Nostromo Speedpad N52, but that is not a FR specific device. It just frees me from having to use the KB because I can bind important keys to it and use my left hand like you would with a Hotas.

Nifty little device, works great for FPS too because it's basically nothing more than a custom KB for your left hand. Whatever keys the game uses can be programmed into it and you can also create strings of commands called macros...for example to drop all flaps, lower throttle and deploy your landing gear all at once.

-Zen-
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's refreshing to hear one of the veterans bring some balance to this discussion.

It has been 20+ years since my first sim and I've never used more than a twisty MS sidewinder with a hat. I'm sure we give up SA this way, but it doesn't seem to hurt immersion or the ability to perform intricate maneuvers.

Do I get shot down? You bet, online and, occasionally, offline. But I suspect that has more to do with limited practice, skill and reflexes than equipment.

I like the idea of the speedpad, however. It might eliminate the need to take eyes away from the cockpit when you can least afford it.

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LilHorse
03-15-2004, 11:42 AM
Of that stuff I have the pedals. Just makes me feel in better control of the plane and in a way which mimics RL. So both in terms of helping fighting and immersion that's what does it for me.

99th Obsidian
03-15-2004, 12:48 PM
Anyone have a good Nostromos N52 profile they'd be willing to share?

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Maj_Death
03-15-2004, 01:03 PM
None of those things are necassary but for a better experience I recommend a HOTAS such as the X-45. The high end joysticks such as the X-45 and Couger add alot to immersion IMHO. Mainly because you arn't fiddling around with = and - for throttle or sitting there tapping f and v for flaps. With a HOTAS you get wheels and sliders like real planes have. You also get multiple hats so you can get better control of views without the use of TIR. TIR might add to immersion some but it could also take away from it by having your view go nuts every time you change the way you're sitting or when you reach over and grab your drink. Force feedback can be neat if it is well done but in my experience FFB is generally very arcadish and takes away from the experience. Rudder pedals would certainly be nice as would an inclosed cockpit but unless you are Bill Gates, you have to draw the line somewhere. For me, it is hard to justify the cost of rudder pedals and especially an inclosed cockpit. We are talking about some serious bucks for not much more added. A big moniter and a real sound card instead of that built in craptacular sound on most mobo's are the most important though. I find it very amusing when someone has the latest and greatest CPU, GPU and a ton of ultra high speed RAM and yet they use built in AC97 sound. It's like buying $100k worth of accessories for a Ford Escort http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif.

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arcadeace
03-15-2004, 01:33 PM
I would participate if there was the option to disregard house and other responsible payments so I too can have fun with all the goodies. Then again I probably would opt for the best quality Lazy Boy lounger and really immerse.

Otherwise, I agree with Ivan.

BM357_Raven
03-15-2004, 01:38 PM
dunno.. i'll say the periph-order for me:

Realism/Immersion Package I

1. FFB Stick
2. Rudder Pedals
3. TiR
4. CH throttle

Realism/Immersion Package II

1. FFB Stick
2. Rudder Pedals
3. Mouse-look

The second one is the minimum and the first is the best for me. Each numbered item is in order-of-importance for me...

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BOPrey
03-15-2004, 01:47 PM
You forget about a real gun. So, you can shot yourself on the head if die in the virtual sky.

Bearcat99
03-15-2004, 01:59 PM
I use the X45 and the MSFFB in conjunction with rudder pedals. For me the immersion factor is off the hook. Using just the little black button on my X45 as Shift/Alt/Ctrl depending on the mode I can even kick up the functions of my MSFFB stick as well.. I dont use the gun forces on the FFB.... its too noisy and IMO it shortens the life of your stick. Where FFB really shines and adds to the immersion is in the control surfaces. I have made many a damaged landing because I could FEEL how much orhow little pressure to appy on my stick due to a damaged wing or control surface...you cant get that without FFB..you have to rely on visual cues. Personnally I thinkyou should have put in an all of the above too. I dont have TIR yet... I am leaning towards getting it.. but for now the mouse pan of my X45 is fine. I had the original TIR. I really didnt like it. Id turn my head or sneeze and the whole screen would go nuts. I dont know how much improved TIT2 is..... with my mouse pan I have it set for 3 speeds..depending on the mode. I thought of getting a Nostromo.... but theX45 went on sale and so I got that and havent looked back. I already have my spare MSFFB in the closet so that whenever this one breaks I wont have to depend on MS.... if/when my X45 bites the dust I will just get another...... My X45 has lasted me quite a while because I dont put a lot of wear on it. Having a FFB stick gives you physical cues so you dont have to over work your stick. You know just how much force to apply to get the job done... mind you now... I still overcompensate at times...but my stick doesnt have to pay for it.
I also thing this thread should be named peripherals required for full immersion... because like some of the posters stated .... they dont need anything but a stick to enjoy FR. What I need for full reall..is a P-51 and about 100 hours of flight instruction.

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Zen--
03-15-2004, 02:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Der_Doberman:
Anyone have a good Nostromos N52 profile they'd be willing to share?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if it's 'good', but it works for me.

clyndes@hotmail.com for IM, I can send it over tonight after work.

-Zen-

DONB3397
03-15-2004, 02:26 PM
Found the SpeedPad n52 at a local retailer and installed it. Zen, you're right. Always had flaps, wheels, brakes and throttle on my stick. But this attachment adds a lot, even with no experience -- instant mirrors, dive-brakes, engine selection, fire extinguisher, prop feathering, tail-wheel lock, track recording, and much more.

Thanks for the tip!

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Zen--
03-15-2004, 02:28 PM
It is a great device isn't it? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I got about 2 or 3 years out of my N50, maybe longer, bought a second just because I felt like it then decided to try the N52.

To me, a product like the Nostromo is what a product should be...it's simple, it works and it's cheap. Very cost effective device, I even have a profile for photoshop in it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Glad I could help too, ty sir

-Zen-

adlabs6
03-15-2004, 02:29 PM
I have a profile for the original Nostromo N50, but it won't work with the new N52. You could just transfer all my mappings to the N52, plus have room for more. I may do that later on if I get more time.

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Zen--
03-15-2004, 02:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by adlabs6:
I have a profile for the original Nostromo N50, but it won't work with the new N52. You could just transfer all my mappings to the N52, plus have room for more. I may do that later on if I get more time.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


There is an option to import the N50 profile, I used it to bring over my existing profile when I set up the N52.

Very handy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Zen-

TooCooL34
03-15-2004, 02:34 PM
Would you show me what is N52?

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Zen--
03-15-2004, 02:37 PM
http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=&Section_Id=2071&pcount=&Product_Id=157024

Sorry, should have posted a link from the get go.

-Zen-

gates123
03-15-2004, 02:44 PM
I think excellent situational awareness should be on that list.

Cessna182
03-15-2004, 03:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BOPrey:
You forget about a real gun. So, you can shot yourself on the head if die in the virtual sky.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Damn, someone beat me to it.

How about someone to grab you by the head and spin you around in your chair to simulate negative G's...?

Dnmy
03-15-2004, 03:39 PM
None of the above.

I'd say peripheral vision, instead of peripherals. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

michapma
03-16-2004, 02:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maj_Death:
TIR might add to immersion some but it could also take away from it by having your view go nuts every time you change the way you're sitting or when you reach over and grab your drink.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif And reaching over and grabbing your drink doesn't kill immersion? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif When TrackIR stops tracking (happens to me if I get carried away with head movement) it's not so great, and if for any reason it isn't working (like I forgot to start it), I still have no backup viewing system...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For me, it is hard to justify the cost of rudder pedals and especially an inclosed cockpit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rudder pedals do add to immersion. It's a shame that FB seems to require such little yaw compensation, but there are several maneuvers where I consider the pedals to be a great aid. Good pedals are costly, but again you can build them or adapt some cheaper alternative.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A big moniter and a real sound card instead of that built in craptacular sound on most mobo's are the most important though. I find it very amusing when someone has the latest and greatest CPU, GPU and a ton of ultra high speed RAM and yet they use built in AC97 sound.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's important if sound is important to you. I actually got to the point that I wanted to get a soundcard, but when I looked into it I was told they don't really bring much. Someone specifically said that their major contribution is the contacts! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Admittedly you have to make sure the onboard sound has its own processor to relieve the CPU. So what does a soundcard actually give you in terms of quality? What do you recommend? I finally got some speakers (Logitech Z-640) beyond el cheapo desktop ones, but usually I have to wear headphones anyway. Any tips for good headphones would be appreciated too...

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michapma
03-17-2004, 09:25 AM
Bump

Maj_Death?

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Bearcat99
03-17-2004, 09:31 AM
I started to get a Nostromo... I decided to go with the X45 because it was more sticlike and at the time it was on sale for $49. Another good investment. If I could find some stocks or mutual funds that would give me the return of FB Id be rich by now...

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B16Enk
03-17-2004, 10:00 AM
michapma:
AKG do some nice reasonably priced headphones http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Stalker58
03-17-2004, 11:49 AM
The only needful things are:
1/ Good stick (Cyborg 3D USB)
2/ Wheeled optical mouse
3/ Lot of patience

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!

Maj_Death
03-17-2004, 02:01 PM
I only said a real soundcard, it doesn't even have to be very good. I run on a 4 year old SB PCI 128 and the quality is vastly superior to my Mobo's AC97 sound. BTW they still make that card and it costs about $10 these days. Very minimal but alot better than any built in sound around. The difference is mostly the quality and depth. Super cheap sound cards such as the PCI 128 don't add much performance, just much better quality. Not a bad deal for $10 IMHO. Newer models cost more and they may increase performance noticably, I really don't know. What I do know is my obsolete SBPCI 128 works better than the standard modern built in AC97 sound. I'm giving some thought to upgrading my soundcard though. I would like EAX3 support http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

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BaldieJr
03-17-2004, 02:14 PM
My AC97 rocks. It blows the doors off the SB Live! I was using. It all depends on the chip being used.

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