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huggy87
03-26-2004, 01:01 PM
I am reading "an ace in the 8th" by Bud Fortier, a mustang pilot in the 355th FG in England in WW2. At one point he witnessed an ME-109 incinerate a B-17 (must have hit a bomb). Anyway he quickly shot down the 109 and later had the pilot dangling in his chute in his sights. He couldn't bring himself to kill the pilot and caught some flak from his squad mates later. Especially since the German had just killed 10 Americans.

While not policy, it sounds like shooting parachutes was a common practice for this FG. Pretty unchivalrous, but I can understand it from a winning the war perspective. At least, when a pilot is descending over his own friendly territory and you might meet him again tomorrow. I don't know if I would do it myself.

Has anybody ever read or heard of this being policy with any nation, squadron, etc?

huggy87
03-26-2004, 01:01 PM
I am reading "an ace in the 8th" by Bud Fortier, a mustang pilot in the 355th FG in England in WW2. At one point he witnessed an ME-109 incinerate a B-17 (must have hit a bomb). Anyway he quickly shot down the 109 and later had the pilot dangling in his chute in his sights. He couldn't bring himself to kill the pilot and caught some flak from his squad mates later. Especially since the German had just killed 10 Americans.

While not policy, it sounds like shooting parachutes was a common practice for this FG. Pretty unchivalrous, but I can understand it from a winning the war perspective. At least, when a pilot is descending over his own friendly territory and you might meet him again tomorrow. I don't know if I would do it myself.

Has anybody ever read or heard of this being policy with any nation, squadron, etc?

TheJoyStick
03-26-2004, 01:07 PM
I dunno about policies and the like, but the japs were pretty keen on shooting down chutes.

BaldieJr
03-26-2004, 01:17 PM
I kill stray animals and smear thier blood all over my body prior to playing IL2FB.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

Snyde-Dastardly
03-26-2004, 01:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
I kill stray animals and smear thier blood all over my body prior to playing IL2FB.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

From this day to the end of the world, we in it shall be remembered, we band of brothers http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/Devils_Night.bmp

F19_Olli72
03-26-2004, 01:24 PM
Some Polish squadrons during BoB seems to have had a reputation of doing it . From 'Fighter Boys' by Patrick Bishop:

"Peter Matthews was on leave at the beginning of September and went home to Ewell. He was teaching his wife to drive on Epsom Downs when he looked up to see "Hurricanes shooting down germans in parachutes. I knew jolly well who they were. They were 303 Squadron boys. Poles. They owned to it."

________________________________________________
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JorBR
03-26-2004, 02:30 PM
This discussion was done before (in endless threads http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif). I can recollect strafing chutes is against the Geneva Convention, almost never happenned in eastern front and wasn´t uncommon in west, americans seems to had a reputation for strafing german pilots on their chutes.

As far as I am concerned a illegal, but very rational practice, granted your enemy is floating on his side of the lines.

GAU-8
03-26-2004, 02:36 PM
is it a server that has planes/pilots? then yes . 45 mil on humans gets the job done

Udidtoo
03-26-2004, 02:37 PM
Is it time for this one again already?

It happened.

Its not very noble.

Let the Nationlistic finger wagging commence.

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

LessThanZero
03-26-2004, 02:37 PM
If Oleg didn't intend for us to shoot chutes, he wouldn't have made them collapse so nicely http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

In the real world it'd probably be a different matter.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_191_1078712599.jpg

buz13
03-26-2004, 02:41 PM
It does seem to me that if the pilot is behind his own lines and will be back to shoot at you tomorrow you are justified in shooting him/her.
If the are going to land in your territory and very likely be captured then don't shoot - you might also get some intelligence info if you don't. If I were a pilot that had to bail out over my own territory I would not open the chute until very close to the ground.

A130
03-26-2004, 02:47 PM
Well, I'm sure that everyone's read an account of someone or other doing it. I'm pretty positive at this point that every nationality involved had at least one pilot shoot another out of a 'chute or strafe him on the ground. Similarly, I'm sure that every nationality involved has committed atrocities with its ground forces, too. (Bayoneting wounded soldiers, shooting ones that surrendered, that sort of thing.) It happens.

War's hell, and while we can debate about this now, I'm sure that if you asked anyone still alive who had done it, they'd probably tell you that "you just had to be there." It's one thing for us to say that it's against the law and immoral. I'm sure that it's another thing entirely if the enemy pilot that just nailed your best buddy is swinging underneath a 'chute 500m in front of your plane.

Interestingly enough, it doesn't seem to happen very much online, at least on the Ubi servers -- I think I've only ever encountered one pilot who does it intentionally out of all the ones I've flown with or against. This seems historically accurate to me.

clint-ruin
03-26-2004, 02:53 PM
Discussions like this can't help but boil down to two basic lines:

They did it, but we didn't.

Both sides did it, but we did it less than they did.

Fill in 'they' or 'we' with the appropriate nationality, stir well .. wait til it hits 20 pages :&gt;

Should be counterbalanced by saying that shooting a helpless pilot dangling in their parachute is one of the least horrible things that tends to happen in warfare.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

heywooood
03-26-2004, 03:12 PM
In RAF sq.leader Peter Townsends book Duel of Eagles he talks about it this way.
"the Air Marshal and in fact the Luftwaffe agreed that any RAF pilots bailing out over the Isle itself or even over the channel should be recognized as legitimate targets but that ultimately it was a choice that each individual pilot made when faced with the circumstances" in fact Mr. Townsend himself watched a Luft pilot bail out more than once but could not bring himself to shoot at them.(some RAF pilots did).
The RAF was also authorized to shoot at German rescue and red cross ident. seaplanes used to pick up their downed pilots.. (they would also p/u downed RAF pilots if the chance came along) and as that was the case they would generally let them slide too, however, it was soon pointed out that these rescue planes were also doing convoy recon and they WERE shot down. Many worse deeds were done than this - we play a game with no real stakes, they played for the ultimate stakes. I cant even shoot down a virtual pilot in a chute. Mr. Townsend said he couldnt shoot down a real one - they would be struggling for survival in the sea - or from their wounds already.

[This message was edited by heywooood on Fri March 26 2004 at 02:25 PM.]

TheJayMan
03-26-2004, 03:17 PM
I have a bit of an issue with shooting chutes over friendly territory. I'm far from advocating the killing of defenseless combatants where capture is immanent. But over hostile territory, where they will surely land to fly and fight again, I have no moral issue with it at all. I would advocate not only killing them while they swing, but I would even want to know details about it in any after-action report. The more dead enemy pilots, the better. That's the whole idea. American pilots shot up all kinds of things, from civilians to horses and livestock. No regime stands without the sanction of its citizenship, and in a war that brought humanity to the very brink, anything that provides resources or abilities to your enemy is a potential target. It is funny in war how some soldiers avoid the thought that they are killing people by only so much as painting a kill symbol on the side of their planes. There were men inside of those planes, and many of them died in horrible ways. What difference does it make how you kill them, so long as they are no longer a threat or an asset to your enemy? They can paint skulls on the sides of their planes for every guy they shot in their chute, for all I care. A kill is a kill. And what is this "chivalry" nonsense? Chivalry is as immoral to the knight as feudalism is to the peasant. It takes one to serve the other, by force, and none existed without the other, as history has plainly shown. As an American, kings are blatantly immoral, so please don't invoke the chivalry argument to anyone who values liberty. Liberty, by definition, means that you own yourself, and that you are free to act as you please as long as you don't bring harm directly to another. Chivalry is a code of servitude to a lord. I serve no lord. And if anyone uses force against you, you are allowed to use force against them. Therefore, we can kill Nazi's wherever they are, whether they stand on the ground or float through the air. Any attempt by Nazi's or Soviets to attain moral high ground is a total joke, considering these were regimes where people existed not as free men, but as slaves to dictators, totally subordinated to their states. In the USSR, the whole concept of property didn't even exist, so how can you own yourself (e.g. have "rights" or "liberty")? Nazi Germany and the USSR didn't have a single moral leg to stand on, to the very core of their societal existence. Why is this relevant? Because I won't be lectured on morality by anyone who even slightly sanctions communism, socialism, Marxism, or fascism, IN ANY WAY.

I'll shoot any enemy pilot in a chute in IL-2, especially on a scripted server where you have to eliminate enemy pilots in order to win. If I were a real pilot in WW2, I would have shot any chute I could see that was over enemy territory. I would have straffed the bastards on the ground while they were running away from their burning wreckage. I would have bombed the barracks while they slept. I would have firebombed their whole *******ed city to the ground, if that's what it would have taken to bring them to their knees (and it did).

Americans had a reputation for killing guys in their chutes. Outstanding!

BlackstarUK
03-26-2004, 03:58 PM
Does that mean I COULD lecture you on the morality of Slavery, or the virtual destruction of the indigenous population of the country you now inhabit, and who you gallingly refer to as Native Americans?

Lav69
03-26-2004, 04:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GAU-8:
is it a server that has planes/pilots? then yes . 45 mil on humans gets the job done<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wtf?

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clint-ruin
03-26-2004, 04:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackstarUK:
Does that mean I COULD lecture you on the morality of Slavery, or the virtual destruction of the indigenous population of the country you now inhabit, and who you gallingly refer to as Native Americans?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too obvious, though around here it might work. You need to work on more subtle and realistic lures to get the really big fish.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Lav69
03-26-2004, 04:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackstarUK:
Does that mean I COULD lecture you on the morality of Slavery, or the virtual destruction of the indigenous population of the country you now inhabit, and who you gallingly refer to as Native Americans?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kinda like N. Ireland?

Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe, bios 1008
Nvidia nForce 2, Ultra 400 chipset
Antec 430w PS
Athlon XP 3200 (400fsb)
ATI Radeon 9700pro
1024mb Corsair XMS, twin x, pc3200, dual channel
120gb Maxtor, sata 150 - 120gb WD 7200rpm
SB Audigy
Windows XP, home
Saitek X45

Timex62
03-26-2004, 04:11 PM
BlackstarUK, please remember those things began when America was British. But that is aside from the point, there isn't a nation on this earth without a dark side. May we all learn from the past and hopefully learn to coexist.

Close to the Edge

porcupine1
03-26-2004, 04:15 PM
If you were in compat you saw a sniper pick off three of you best friends and you have him in your sites and the snipers already shot in the arm and he couldnt raise his arm to shoot agian. would you take the shot??? I think most of us would. just because he cant get you now doesnt mean he wont tommorrow.
its like the scorpion and the fox stuck on an Island in a river during a flood.

A fox chased the scorpion out by a tree next to a river, the scorpion slashed at the fox and the fox at the scorpion. after chaseing each other around during the night, they didnt notice that the river was riseing and they could be trapped. the fox decided to stop chaseing the scorpion and swim to shore. the scorpion couldnt swim and the fox said to the scorpion, "if you dont sting me Ill let you ride on my back And ill take you to shore." the scorpion agreed as long as the fox wouldnt attack him. they aggreed. half way across the river the scorpion climbed onto the foxes neck raised his tail and stung the fox. "OUCH WWHY DID YOU DO THAT I WAS HELPING YOU NOW YOUVE KILLED US!!" said the fox. The scorpion replied "well yes you were helping me, but i am a scorpion and you are a fox"

now before anone else says it The fox is obviously under moddeled and the scorpion clearly uber ha ha funny! ok thats my thoughts on the subjects.
it sucks but its war. Its odd that we have issues shooting someone who is trying to kill us moment before, but we will hop into a bomber and carpet bomb a 2 square mile area in the middle of the night blowing children out of there beds, and call it acceptable civilian loss. just a thought.
Oh by the way i do pic off shoots occasionaly but since its a game i have no beef and dont feel to bad.
Online I dont although I do sometimes fly as fast and as close to the shoot as it falls fireing past it just to scare the buggers!! AINT I A STINKER!

heywooood
03-26-2004, 04:18 PM
Why do we build fences and walls again....oh yeah...

JZG_Winter
03-26-2004, 04:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lav69:
Kinda like N. Ireland?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this the same N Ireland where the VAST majority want to stay british?

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/clipperr-He111.jpg

Gato-Loco
03-26-2004, 04:29 PM
Deja-vu... must have been a change in the matrix...

Lav69
03-26-2004, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JZG_Winter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lav69:
Kinda like N. Ireland?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this the same N Ireland where the VAST majority want to stay british?

Don't think so, must be a different one. I am tired of the US bashing, past and present. I don't agree with my countries current foreign policy, but I am not going to sit idle and listen. All countries have made mistakes in there past and there was no just reason for Blackstar's comment.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/clipperr-He111.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe, bios 1008
Nvidia nForce 2, Ultra 400 chipset
Antec 430w PS
Athlon XP 3200 (400fsb)
ATI Radeon 9700pro
1024mb Corsair XMS, twin x, pc3200, dual channel
120gb Maxtor, sata 150 - 120gb WD 7200rpm
SB Audigy
Windows XP, home
Saitek X45

Udidtoo
03-26-2004, 04:33 PM
Patterns? hmmmm patterns. Huggy wasn't you one of F. Chile's biggest Flamefest advocates?

Don't mind me mate, just looking for patterns.

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

huggy87
03-26-2004, 04:34 PM
whoa whoa whoa!!!!!

Let's keep the nationalist BS out of this. I'm an american and I was referring to an American unit that was shooting the chutes.

To those of you who are saying this is a common thread...tough. I have been lurking/posting here for about a month and I haven't seen anything about it. Need I remind you, the only way to keep this great sim going is with fresh blood. Just because you have seen a thread 5-6 times doesn't mean all of us have. This sounds kind of snippy, but I think many old timers forget that if Oleg does not sell enough sims we all lose out.

huggy87
03-26-2004, 04:36 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Udidtoo:
Patterns? hmmmm patterns. Huggy wasn't you one of F. Chile's biggest Flamefest advocates?

Don't mind me mate, just looking for patterns.

QUOTE]

Flamefest??? I was an advocate of not censoring topics for everyone just because a few people cannot have a mature discussion. I encourage you to reread that thread.

huggy87
03-26-2004, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Udidtoo:
Is it time for this one again already?

It happened.

Its not very noble.

Let the Nationlistic finger wagging commence.

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm. Pattern. I noticed nationalist finger wagging did not start until you brought it up. Instead of lamenting that this topic has been covered before, why not give an address.

Udidtoo
03-26-2004, 04:46 PM
1408 W. Randolph

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

BTW,If I actually possed enough power to make things happen or not happen by merely uttering or typing something the world would be in even worse straights than it is .

P.S. thats a real address, stop in if your in the neighborhood.

El Turo
03-26-2004, 04:50 PM
How about we all play the Family Feud?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/stfu7.jpg

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
Amidst morning clouds
Fork-tailed devil hunts its prey
Lightning strikes, süsse tr¤ume.

Spinne_3.-JG51
03-26-2004, 04:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheJayMan:
I have a bit of an issue with shooting chutes over friendly territory. I'm far from advocating the killing of defenseless combatants where capture is immanent. But over hostile territory, where they will surely land to fly and fight again, I have no moral issue with it at all. I would advocate not only killing them while they swing, but I would even want to know details about it in any after-action report. The more dead enemy pilots, the better. That's the whole idea. American pilots shot up all kinds of things, from civilians to horses and livestock. No regime stands without the sanction of its citizenship, and in a war that brought humanity to the very brink, anything that provides resources or abilities to your enemy is a potential target. It is funny in war how some soldiers avoid the thought that they are killing people by only so much as painting a kill symbol on the side of their planes. There were men inside of those planes, and many of them died in horrible ways. What difference does it make how you kill them, so long as they are no longer a threat or an asset to your enemy? They can paint skulls on the sides of their planes for every guy they shot in their chute, for all I care. A kill is a kill. And what is this "chivalry" nonsense? Chivalry is as immoral to the knight as feudalism is to the peasant. It takes one to serve the other, by force, and none existed without the other, as history has plainly shown. As an American, kings are blatantly immoral, so please don't invoke the chivalry argument to anyone who values liberty. Liberty, by definition, means that you own yourself, and that you are free to act as you please as long as you don't bring harm directly to another. Chivalry is a code of servitude to a lord. I serve no lord. And if anyone uses force against you, you are allowed to use force against them. Therefore, we can kill Nazi's wherever they are, whether they stand on the ground or float through the air. Any attempt by Nazi's or Soviets to attain moral high ground is a total joke, considering these were regimes where people existed not as free men, but as slaves to dictators, totally subordinated to their states. In the USSR, the whole concept of property didn't even exist, so how can you own yourself (e.g. have "rights" or "liberty")? Nazi Germany and the USSR didn't have a single moral leg to stand on, to the very core of their societal existence. Why is this relevant? Because I won't be lectured on morality by anyone who even slightly sanctions communism, socialism, Marxism, or fascism, IN ANY WAY.

I'll shoot any enemy pilot in a chute in IL-2, especially on a scripted server where you have to eliminate enemy pilots in order to win. If I were a real pilot in WW2, I would have shot any chute I could see that was over enemy territory. I would have straffed the bastards on the ground while they were running away from their burning wreckage. I would have bombed the barracks while they slept. I would have firebombed their whole *******ed city to the ground, if that's what it would have taken to bring them to their knees (and it did).

Americans had a reputation for killing guys in their chutes. Outstanding!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd love to be around when it's you dangling in a chute, just to see that smile on your face as someone's Mk108 shreds the rest of you.

http://www.student.richmond.edu/~vk5qa/images/forumsig.jpg

"Come on in, I'll treat you nice! I used to know your father."

huggy87
03-26-2004, 05:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Udidtoo:
1408 W. Randolph

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

BTW,If I actually possed enough power to make things happen or not happen by merely uttering or typing something the world would be in even worse straights than it is .

P.S. thats a real address, stop in if your in the neighborhood.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Lol. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Not quite what I had in mind.

Udidtoo
03-26-2004, 05:47 PM
I said it was real, never said it was mine http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

brimigus
03-26-2004, 06:01 PM
Funny how i get some satifaction when the plane explodes with the pilot in it or when it becomes a death ship but the minute he bails all the sudden it becomes a person and not an object which is odd,because it's still just an object.Man im soft think ill do what Baldie Jr does an smear my self in animal blood before a match.

DONB3397
03-26-2004, 06:32 PM
Strange that not many WWII fighter pilots mention it in their personal stories. When they acknowledge hitting someone in a chute, it's always preceded with a justification. In real life, dead pilots don't get back into another fighter and shoot down your bombers and peers.

Is it the same as killing an unarmed person? Is it against the rules of war? If it isn't, should it be?

In this flight sim, it's an empty exercise. There isn't a payback. You won't get any more points for strafing a chute if you do, and you won't save this virtual image any pain if you don't. Anyway, while you're lining yourself up on a floating target, you could be nailed by someone else.

My advice? Forget it. Airplanes are more challenging, and you don't have to think about it later.

http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/3fe77b7e_1812a/bc/Images/Sig---1.jpg?BCXPJZAB99qqLZQo
There is no 'way' of winning;
There is only Winning!

pourshot
03-26-2004, 06:47 PM
It was RAAF policy to shoot German parachutes in the desert war and on one occasion a pilot was even told off by his CO for not firing.
But this was in response to several RAAF pilots being killed after being seen to bail safely only to be found later dead with many bullet wounds, so I can see how it would be tempting to go down the chute shooting path.

I should add that many did not follow this order.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/mybaby.jpeg.JPG
Ride It Like Ya Stole It

Two_Hawks
03-26-2004, 07:08 PM
Ive been shot while in my chute by AI Russian AA guns. I was the only plane in the area and they shot at me for 30 secs before they hit me so it wasnt just "after-fire" from shooting at my plane.

Damn!!!!!! i love this sim http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

owlwatcher
03-26-2004, 07:20 PM
Shooting the chutes

Game wise Shoot them chutes ,chutes really slow up the computer.
On B-17 games, I put light AA or ships all along the flight route just for the chutes.

essemm
03-26-2004, 07:37 PM
Shoot them. War is hell.

http://server3.uploadit.org/files/141103-warloch_small.jpg

huggy87
03-26-2004, 07:44 PM
I posted the outtake from Fortier's book because I was a little taken aback. I have read perhaps a dozen WW2 aviation autobiographies and have never seen mention of strafing chutes. I was impressed by his candor on the subject. I'll bet most authors leave that ugliness out.

Cpt_MiB
03-26-2004, 08:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lav69:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JZG_Winter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lav69:
Kinda like N. Ireland?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this the same N Ireland where the VAST majority want to stay british?

Don't think so, must be a different one. I am tired of the US bashing, past and present. I don't agree with my countries current foreign policy, but I am not going to sit idle and listen. All countries have made mistakes in there past and there was no just reason for Blackstar's comment.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/clipperr-He111.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

actually in simple terms N ireland wants to remain british the republic of ireland wants n ireland to be part of it again

Loco-S
03-26-2004, 10:33 PM
Actually, there have been several documented cases of Pilots of both sides who shot at and killed enemy pilots while in their parachutes...personally I think is a cowards action to do so.

As a Pilot I respect the downed oponent shot down in fair game...of course he may be wounded or worst, but having he come alive of the situation makes me feel better he can go back to his family after the war.( Im talking a real life situation)

war sucks, and there will be moments where you are forced to do unethical things, but, why to do it if you can do something different?

besides...I wouldnt want to be shot while floating harmlessly in a chute. pay back is a byatch.

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif
Armis Bela, non venenis geri

JG4_Rivercube
03-27-2004, 04:55 PM
Hi all,

i just want to remember G-P Eder from JG2.
He was an ace with 78 (36 B17!!) victories in arround 878 flights in the west. Its reported that at least two times he let a damaged P47 go
back to england. This is reported from the
US pilots who knew his machine and i think met
him after the war.

http://www.jg2.org/history.htm

"Not My Turn To Die"

On June 26,1943, Robert S. Johnson was one in a flight of sixteen P-47 Thunderbolts assigned to escort B-24 bombers to their target. Bob was the first to sight approximately sixteen Focke-Wulf 190's approaching his group from 5 o'clock high but was not able to get any response from his group when he tried to warn them over the radio. On a previous mission he had been the first to sight enemy fighters and broke formation to attack them, successfully breaking up the attack and claiming his first victory. However, he was severely chastised for this by the Wing Cmdr. and was told never to break formation again, no matter what. So this occasion he held his position and on the first pass of the enemy fighters six Thunderbolts were shot down, including Bob's ship "Half Pint".
His aircraft fell out of control for several thousand feet and was on fire. The fire extinguished itself and Bob regained control of the aircraft. He had not worn his goggles that day ( the only time he did this) and his eyes were soaked in hydraulic fluid making it difficult to see. He had two bullet fragments in his right leg. Another bullet had nicked his nose and shattered part of the wind screen. Bob tried to bail out but discovered that metal behind the cockpit had been splintered in such a way as to prevent the canopy from sliding back more than six inches. With a parachute on there was obviously not enough space to slip through to safety. The only option left was to try to fly the Thunderbolt home, or at least to friendly territory, if the aircraft could make it. Somewhere over France another Focke-Wulf 190 spotted Bob flying alone and made a firing pass at him. The Fw-190 had only 7.9mm ammo on board and although every round of it was fired into Bob's plane, the German was not able to finish the job. The German pilot then realized Johnson's rather defenseless position and decided to pull in close to inspect his would-be quarry. The German pulled his left wing in behind Bob's right wing so that the wingtips of each plane were but a few feet from touching each other's fuselage. &gt;From his close vantage point, the German calmly inspected Bob's plane from nose to tail and shook his head, not understanding how the P-47 could still fly so perfectly. Bob kept looking over at the German pilot. He was a good looking man with blue eyes. He was not a rookie. He projected confidence and had somewhat of an aristocratic air about him. Occasionally their gazes met. Bob could clearly see the German pilot and noticed he was wearing a light blue leather or suede flying jacket with a white scarf wrapped around his neck and tucked into the jacket. He had on a dark brown summer style flying helmet and his black shatter-proof goggles were pushed up above his forehead. In this manner the two men flew alongside each other for almost 30 minutes. When reaching the the English channel near Dieppe, France, The German pilot looked over at Bob one last time. He raised a black-gloved hand and saluted Bob, then peeled off to the right to head for his own base, presumably Abbeville, the home of JG26. Bob flew on toward toward the English coastline, constantly in radio contact with a coastal air controller. He was low over the water now and thought he might have to ditch into the channel. Surprisingly, he was able to gain enough altitude to clear the cliffs and was vectored to the nearest airfield by the controller. Bob declined, opting to fly to his own airfield. He landed safely, but his Thunderbolt had to be scrapped. It had over 210 holes in it, with at least twenty being deadly 20mm cannon rounds which had initially
brought him down. He walked into HQ for debriefing and a shot of bourbon just in time to hear a live radio interview on a German radio station that some officers had tuned in. It was the German pilot who had just flown with him! Although they did not get his name, Bob was sure from the interview that it was the same pilot from his description of events. The German mentioned Bob's identification letters on the side of the Thunderbolt. He thought that Bob must have crashed into the Channel due to his low altitude and the amount of damage to his aircraft. It is believed that the German pilot was Georg Peter Eder of JG2 who was ferrying a JG26 aircraft that day.

I mean, that when you have damaged the enemy
plane and hes not able to defend any more its
no reason to finish it up or even kill the pilot.

Most fighter pilots of both sides said that they fought the machine and not the men.

Regards

Rivercube

JG53Hunter
03-27-2004, 06:28 PM
Best post in here!
S! Rivercube!

I would never shot a chute in this game and sometimes i even let sombody fly home. It gives me more honor and fun to see sombody return home with his smoking wrek or when i let him bail. Chute shooting in game just sucks and is for lamers.
Honorfull people give their enemy (in chute) a greeting with a flyby and some smoke or position lights.

In war it may be different. War is hell. But this game should give each of us fun and chute-killing isn't fun at all. Not for me!

Salute to all honorfull pilots!

III/JG53&gt;Hunter

Menthol_moose
03-27-2004, 08:11 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by H_Butcher:
How about we all play the Family Feud?

That guy was so cool in the running man !

OT.. but im so sick of this nobel crap.

War is hell...

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/stfu7.jpg

Gen_Strike
03-27-2004, 08:24 PM
Who said the republic want NI back?
Its full of northerners and sainsburys, you brits can keep your nasty northern Ireland, we dont want it.
Now get outta my garden!!!

Mentatassasin
03-27-2004, 08:43 PM
Shooting chutes = savage, cowardly and criminal imo.

darkhorizon11
03-28-2004, 01:39 AM
Yeah its cowardly but so is war. I've heard it go both ways. I remember an RAF talking about it with joy. To be honest though you have to put yourself in the parachute and then you'll realize that though its not the most honorable thing guess what? The other guy would probably shoot you. Kill or be killed!

On the other hand I read another account from a British pilot that when he was limping home from a mission over France in a compromised plane. A German 109 snuck up behind him a spoofed him, initially he freaked but then to his astonishment he saw the German waving at him and he reluctantly waved back. The flew in formation for a little while till the German saw him to the channel where he knew he would be safe. The LW pilot gave a salute and turned back into the wild blue. The British pilot added that such an honorable act never would have happened on the Eastern Front!

It goes both ways. A better question/debate would be what is the worlds' militarys' policies on such a situation today?

BlindHuck
03-28-2004, 01:59 AM
It was assumed, in Bob Johnson's case, the 190 pilot was out of ammo. So he's noble. It would appear the 109 above was out of ammo also. I think we've all seen the gun camera film of an Ar396 getting shot up and going in. Easy kills, trainers. Especially when they're not likely to see you in the first place. Is that different than shooting a parachute down? War is so very different than anything we can imagine (even with IL2 at our disposal) that there is really no way we can sit in judgment of those that took part. Well . . . I guess we can sit in judgment of "them". But we have no way of knowing if our actions would be better or worse, their mothers didn't raise them to be killers anymore than ours. Thank god it's just a game.

"I race full real exclusively in IL2:The Forgotten Battles." - Mark Donohue

wotan111
03-28-2004, 07:04 AM
Apparantly the poles who fought in the BOB shot chutes.

This was seen as most unsporting by the British. As they were a noncombatant.

However apparantly a Spitfire pilot from 56 squadron (I think) was pulled out the english channel. His chute was open but he had been riddled with bullets.

Once this news got out I imagine the pilot on a chute was now a fair target. To a lot of british pilots.

I have shot a chute once in the game to see if it could be done.

Zyzbot
03-28-2004, 08:22 AM
Wasn't just the Polish pilots shooting parachutes:

"In the same battle, pilots of 123. Fighter Eskadrille, flying obsolete PZL P.7a fighters, were surprised by Bf 110's of I/LG1 (commander Maj. Grabmann was wounded in a morning fight, so the unit was led this time by Hauptmann Schleif). Cpt. Mieczyslaw Olszewski, 123's commander, was quickly shot down and killed, his P.7 crashing near Legionow. Three other pilots shot down, bailed out and parachuted: Sec.Lt. Stanislaw Czternastek, Sec.Lt. Feliks Szyszka and cadet Antoni Danek. Only Czternastek safely reached the ground: Szyszka and Danek were attacked in the air. Strafed by a German fighter, Danek got down without injury. Szyszka wasn't so lucky, suffering 16 wounds. He was transported by civilians to a hospital. During that combat on 1 September 1939, I.(Z)/LG 1 escorted the He 111s of KG 27 and LG 1 against the airport of Warsaw. The Bf 110s claimed 5 PZL-fighters shot down - 3 by Hauptmann Fritz Schleif, one each by Unteroffizier Sturm and Unteroffizier Lauffs.

2 September 1939, about 16:00, Lodz area. Eight PZL fighters of III/6 Squadron clashed with 23 Bf 110's of I./ZG76. In the battle, Sec.Lt. Jan Dzwonek was shot down. Hanging in his parachute, he was attacked twice by a Bf 110. Apparently, the Luftwaffe pilot was so busy attacking the defenseless Dzwonek, that Corporal Jan Malinowski, flying an obsolete P.7 fighter, downed the German plane without any problem. See details in the story: Jan Dzwonek - within an ace of death.

3 September 1939, about 10:00 six PZL P-11c of 112. Eskadra Mysliwska (Fighter Eskadrille), leaded by commander of III/1 Dywizjon (Squadron) Cpt. Zdzislaw Krasnodebski took off against German Bf 110 fighters. In hard combat over Wyszkow city, Krasnodebski was forced to bail out. The German pilot who shot him down, aimed to finish his victim, shooting at Krasnodebski while he slowly glided down in his parachute. But Lt. Arsen Cebrzynski saw this deadly pass and the Luftwaffe pilot soon became a victim. Leutnant Barents, a veteran of "Legion Condor", bailed out safely, and became a POW.

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/pol39/pol39.htm


Polish pilots shooting Germans in chute

There were two Poles in 151 Squadron, Frank Czaijkowski and a Sergeant Gmur who spoke little English and was shot down and killed. There was also a Czech pilot. Their flying skills were exemplary.
They hated [the Germans]. Absolutely hated them. In fact, I understand once or twice when Germans were shot down in parachutes they were shot at, but then the Germans would shoot any of us, which was why we were all told, "If you do have a chance, don't bail out, crash land your aeroplane.

http://www.war-experience.org/collections/air/alliedbrit/ellacombe/index.html

Red_Russian13
03-28-2004, 08:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackstarUK:
Does that mean I COULD lecture you on the morality of Slavery, or the virtual destruction of the indigenous population of the country you now inhabit, and who you gallingly refer to as Native Americans?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you remember the smallpox infected blankets you're country 'gave' to the native Americans? No? Get off your high horse. All of us. Hell, every nation on earth has atrocities in thier history. You don't become an empire (UK) without them. And often time, you don't become a nation without them. That's not to say they're right. But it is to say that they happen and may even be necessary in the eyes of the people committing them. Every nation has done something...and many times they've done MANY somethings. I'm not proud of everything America has done, but I'm damn proud to be an American. Just like you're proud to be a Britain.

Red Russian

SeaFireLIV
03-28-2004, 08:54 AM
The problem here is as with some of these posts, people start to get TOO personal, assigning comparisons to their own pet things.
This subject has been out before, but that was quite a long way back. I don`t see a problem with huggy bringing this up now.

It`s others who try to make more from it than it is : A statement on a WWII historical situation.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Old1.jpg

It`s not about the Machine...
(aka: You CAN teach an old dog new tricks!)

BADGER401
03-28-2004, 10:09 AM
Ive just read a book on the JG 7 in which there are several accounts of American pilots killing ejected jet pilots in their chutes. In the Pacific it was common practice for BOTH sides to kill a bailed pilot if they had a chance.... The Austrialians would gun life boats of ships they had sunk on anti shipping strikes as well. In fact on the History channel just last week there was a film segment on the very thing including the footage of a Beaufighter pilot making 3 passes with guns on life boats after sinking a cargo ship....It was later shown in the theaters to boost morale. So it did happen. But I think it had a lot to do with the man behind the stick and his conscience later....

bird_brain
03-28-2004, 10:29 AM
I felt bad the other day after I shot down a 109 in a Spitfire and he started smoking and going in. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

I gave him one last burst just to make sure and at exactly that moment, the canopy flew off & the pilot climbed up on the rail to jump... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

A cannon round nailed him dead center & blew him to smithereens! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1072.gif

I didn't mean to blast the poor guy, so I can't really justify shooting him after he had departed the plane either.

http://hstrial-jyarbrough.homestead.com/Jug.jpg

"Go in close, and then when you think you are too close, go on in closer."
Major Tommy McGuire, USAAF ~ 38 victories in the PTO

huggy87
03-28-2004, 10:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by darkhorizon11:

It goes both ways. A better question/debate would be what is the worlds' militarys' policies on such a situation today?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't speak for all militaries, just the US Navy. Honestly, I have never heard it discussed. Strafing chutes seems almost unthinkable for any present conflict given that most modern wars we would be in would be of short duration. I'm sure that I would have been in a heap of trouble if I had shot a chute over Iraq or afghanistan (obviously very hypothetical). I wonder if it ever happened in North Vietnam?

I am surprised to hear from everyone how common a practice it was to shoot chutes, at least on the western front. I would like to think that if I were in WW2 I would have never shot a chute. However, that seems pretty hypocritical to me. What makes me or any other flier better than any ground pounder. A soldier would not have to think twice about shooting an enemy who was getting away to his own lines. I guess that old early WW1 vision of airborne chivalry still lingers.

Hawgdog
03-28-2004, 10:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LessThanZero:
If Oleg didn't intend for us to shoot chutes, he wouldn't have made them collapse so nicely <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IL2, first one, prior to any patches, the chutes did NOT collapse!
I like nothing more than raking someone as they land trying to get their points or taking a chute out after the guy respawns!
nuff said

If you poofties who think in real life shooting a chuter is unethical, wars are won by killing more of them than they can kill of you. Period. If you dont like killing, you are in the wrong profession.
Try cooking, latrine installation or lubing the planes of the real pilots!


http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/HawgDog/sharkdog.gif
When you get to Hell, tell 'em HawgDog sent you!

Hawgdog
03-28-2004, 10:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackstarUK:
Does that mean I COULD lecture you on the morality of Slavery, or the virtual destruction of the indigenous population of the country you now inhabit, and who you gallingly refer to as Native Americans?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bwaaa haa haaaa. Thats rich coming from the UK. Now, then I love all of the UK, but c'mon, may the whitey who has not sinned cast the first aspersion of that gibberish LOL
The first slaves in this great country WERE WHITE PEOPLE from England!!!!!
Who do ya think was sitting on those country's the queen needed? Dont cha know they love tea-time.....well....by now anyhow!

I'm a slave to this game, maybe Oleg could cough up reparations? Or at least a T-shirt!

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/HawgDog/sharkdog.gif
When you get to Hell, tell 'em HawgDog sent you!

Fenna
03-28-2004, 11:14 AM
This happens in every thread!

One person says something about one country.

Instead of replying to that person, the people from the 'attacked' country decide to list everything wrong with the original posters country, drawing more people into the argument.

2 wrongs don't make a right!

Eres oja? Tu un poja como.

roybaty
03-28-2004, 12:05 PM
Well in my book it's like this:

1. Enemy pilot bails/ejects over enemy territory

Shooting chutes in this circumstance can be justified, as experienced pilots can get a new plane and get back to the fight.

2. Enemy pilot bails/ejects over friendly territory.

He's done for the war, and will be effectively out of action. Under this circumstance shooting a chute is NOT JUSTIFIED.

-------------- QUICK SPECS --------------

-------------- HARDWARE --------------

MOTHERBOARD: Asus A7N266c
PROCESSOR: AMD XP2000@1.7 Ghz
SOUNDCARD: SB Live, Gamer 5.1
VIDEO CARD: PNY nVidia Ti4400/128
RAM: 1 Gig 2100 DDR
HOTAS 1: Thrustmaster COUGAR
HOTAS 2: Saitek X36
PEDALS: CH Pro Pedals USB
OTHER INPUT: Track IR2


-------------- SOFTWARE --------------

OS: Win XP Pro
VOICE COMMAND: Shoot 1.6
DX Ver: 9b

Cardinal25
03-28-2004, 01:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JorBR:
This discussion was done before (in endless threads http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif). I can recollect strafing chutes is against the Geneva Convention, almost never happenned in eastern front and wasn´t uncommon in west, americans seems to had a reputation for strafing german pilots on their chutes.

As far as I am concerned a illegal, but very rational practice, granted your enemy is floating on his side of the lines.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would you tell us your source for this?

CWoS. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/index.php)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=25)
92nd Fighter Group (http://www.92ndfg.com)
7./JG77 (http://www.7jg77.com)

Hawgdog
03-28-2004, 01:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cardinal25:


Would you tell us your source for this?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Call it a gut feeling? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/HawgDog/sharkdog.gif
When you get to Hell, tell 'em HawgDog sent you!

DaBallz
03-28-2004, 01:53 PM
Shooting chutes is not and was not against the Geneva convention.
Aircrews bailing out are very much still combatants until
aprehended. All pilots carry side arms.
Most aircrew carry sidearms to this day.

As to the "morality of shooting chutes....
Over enemy territory you must shoot chutes.
You don't him to learn from his mistakes
and try to kill you again.
over friendly territory you should pass
on the final kill as he will soon be captured.

So a pilot in a chute is fair game.
In this game it's purely target practice.
I do and will always take a whack at a chute.

Da...

Hawgdog
03-28-2004, 02:34 PM
Hmmm, lets see.........let me count the way
one
http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/HawgDog/grab0001.jpg
two
http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/HawgDog/grab0000.jpg
three......so many chutes, so little time
http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/HawgDog/grab0002.jpg

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/HawgDog/sharkdog.gif
When you get to Hell, tell 'em HawgDog sent you!

Hawgdog
03-28-2004, 03:33 PM
Now this chap is NOT fair game...
no chute!
http://204.83.160.230/archive/images4/flamed.jpg

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/HawgDog/sharkdog.gif
When you get to Hell, tell 'em HawgDog sent you!

Kandiru
03-29-2004, 01:29 PM
Haha http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

One thing i love (i am not mean, would never hurt intentionally in real life) about the lil buggers hanging in chutes, esp. if this happens after an arduous turn fight, is the way they morphology changes from head up with arms and legs away from body, to head down and limp limbs

Kan

leadbaloon
03-29-2004, 01:42 PM
Today I managed to shoot a P38 pilot as he bailed before he'd even got his 'chute open. I don't know about the morality of this, but seeing as it's just a game I spent the next five minutes or so laughing hysterically and making a mental note to myself to save the track.

Rivercube
03-29-2004, 02:01 PM
Hi all,

i cant hear this "war is hell" bs anymore, because most of you (and me) dont know what war is.

My uncle has eaten cats and mice/rats in russian POW camp to survive. He seldom says something about this time. He was 19 when he comes to sibiria....he knows what war is about!
He was a gunner in an 88mm flak battery in ploesty and survived the usa attack...they shot at the B24 and not at the crew when they bailed out and they not killed any landed pilots even as the half of their unit was killed at this day. When i hear some of you, the best thing in this situation would be to kill all us boys...
what a bs!

Killing people on chutes is a bad bad thing.
When some side starts with it, the other side
will do it, too. Its a normal process.

The main target for a good and knightly fighter pilot on all sides was to be better than his counterpart -shot down the plane- and not to kill the pilot as first target.

When you make a fist fight and your enemy lies on the ground..what do you do? Kicking him to dead when he gives up? What a poor behavior!

I have the greatest respect for all pilots who let a pilot in a heavy damaged machine make an
emergency landing or let him bail out - even when he shot me down the next mission!

I am an human beeing and not an animal...

Horridoh

Rivercube

SKG10_Oiink
03-29-2004, 02:43 PM
Well i doent shoot chutes, will not even think of doing so. The Rule for this in the sqdn i fly with 1 time warning, second time penalty flight, 3rd time find a new sqdn. This is a game. When the pilot is out of the cocpit he cant fire hes tiny pistol at you, when he lands he runs, when he stops he try to cover himself, so the argument about why to shoot him is not valid, you doent get more points and no matter what you will fight against him again.....but again who am i to say......

Farbe_und_Bunt
03-29-2004, 02:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
Shooting chutes is not and was not against the Geneva convention.
Aircrews bailing out are very much still combatants until
aprehended. All pilots carry side arms.
Most aircrew carry sidearms to this day.

As to the "morality of shooting chutes....
Over enemy territory you must shoot chutes.
You don't him to learn from his mistakes
and try to kill you again.
over friendly territory you should pass
on the final kill as he will soon be captured.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Are you sure, that you read the geneva conventions?????????

This is part of the protokoll added in 1949(!):

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Article 42.-Occupants of aircraft
1. No person parachuting from an aircraft in distress shall be made the object of attack during his descent.
2. Upon reaching the ground in territory controlled by an adverse Party, a person who has parachuted from an aircraft in distress shall be given an opportunity to surrender before being made the object of attack, unless it is apparent that he is engaging in a hostile act.

3. Airborne troops are not protected by this Article.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


And befor 1949 - befor aircombat was taken into the convention - there were also, but more generalized rules.

Nice to know for you for sure:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Hague Conventions of land warfare

Art. 22.
The right of belligerents to adopt means of injuring the enemy is not unlimited.


Art. 23.
In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden -

...

To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;

To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down his arms, or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;

To declare that no quarter will be given;

...


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:

So a pilot in a chute is fair game.
In this game it's purely target practice.
I do and will always take a whack at a chute.

Da...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Looser!

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif (http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de)

LilHorse
03-29-2004, 02:58 PM
Okay, here's the quick skinny on shooting chutes.

In the Pacific it was very common. Japanese pilots shot Americans in their chutes. They did this due to their military code of Bushido. The enemy was to be vanquished. Doing anything less would have been dishonorable not only to the Japanese pilot but to his enemy as well, since it was concidered worse to survive a defeat in battle than to be killed in one.
Of course the Americans were outraged over this practice and accordingly shot Japanese pilots who baled out.

Shooting chutes was also very common in the Eastern ETO (though maybe not as common as in the Pacific). You had centuries of hatred between Russians and Germans. Many took the opportunity when it presented itself.

It was less common in the Western ETO. Though, of the combatants involved, it would seem that Americans did it more often than British or Germans (don't get uppity, I'm American). That basically sums it up.

J30Vader
03-29-2004, 04:01 PM
While you are shooting the chute, make sure his teammate is not shooting you.

DaBallz
03-29-2004, 08:03 PM
As you noted, protocall added in 1949.
To late, this is a WWII sim.
Shoot chutes on sight.

By the way, a pilot IS IN FACT an armed combatant
even hanging in a chute!
All American combat pilots are armed.
Some are heavily armed. (M-16's, shotguns etc).

So they are not merely occupants bailing.

Shoot em if you see em.

Farbe_und_Bunt
03-30-2004, 02:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
As you noted, protocall added in 1949.
To late, this is a WWII sim.
Shoot chutes on sight.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't you think, the geneva convantions show at least a common agreement about what to do or not to do? If so, why do you shot chutes, even in game, if today it's even very clearly not allowed?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
By the way, a pilot IS IN FACT an armed combatant
even hanging in a chute!
All American combat pilots are armed.
Some are heavily armed. (M-16's, shotguns etc).

So they are not merely occupants bailing.

Shoot em if you see em.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The bailing pilot is indeed defenceless while in the air. He is no threat for the pilot of the other side, who shot him down. So why should he kill the bailing pilot? This falls under the Categorie "The right of belligerents to adopt means of injuring the enemy is not unlimited.".
The guns they have are for self defence and not for attacking like in the airborn troops.
I think, the weapon is good in the case that an opponent does not respect the laws of warfare.

I would understand ground troops, that are not sure, what will happen, when the bailed pilot/bailed crew lands, "might" open fire on them. But this would be a case of defence by them.

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif (http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de)

DaBallz
03-30-2004, 02:44 AM
""""[If so, why do you shot chutes, even in game, if today it's even very clearly not allowed?""""
[QUOTE]

Show me where it is CLEAR!
Until 1949 pilots hanging in chutes were fair game.
After 1949 it is not so clear.

I think you have a bad case of "cranial rectumitis"
This is a game, you are killing only DATA!
Dude, think, GAME. Pixels and digital, GAME.
This is not REAL LIFE. (sorry to pop yout bubble).

But I if I were driving a P-51 over Nuremburg
and I shot up a Bf-109 I would feel it is my DUTY
to finish off the pilot.
No hesitation, he would be vulture bait.

If he bailed over London, I would pass.

As to killing digital images of simulated pilots....
it's a blast! Bombers are great fun, lots of targets!

Da...

[This message was edited by DaBallz on Tue March 30 2004 at 01:54 AM.]

Tannethalder2.
03-30-2004, 03:11 AM
@EJGr.OST_anonym: Some good points given but unfortunately not everybody sees the light. I wouldn't waste any more time on such diehards.

S!

KIMURA
03-30-2004, 03:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
""""[If so, why do you shot chutes, even in game, if today it's even very clearly not allowed?""""
[QUOTE]

Show me where it is CLEAR!
Until 1949 pilots hanging in chutes were fair game.
After 1949 it is not so clear.

I think you have a bad case of "cranial rectumitis"
This is a game, you are killing only DATA!
Dude, think, GAME. Pixels and digital, GAME.
This is not REAL LIFE. (sorry to pop yout bubble).

But I if I were driving a P-51 over Nuremburg
and I shot up a Bf-109 I would feel it is my DUTY
to finish off the pilot.
No hesitation, he would be vulture bait.

If he bailed over London, I would pass.

As to killing digital images of simulated pilots....
it's a blast! Bombers are great fun, lots of targets!

Da...

[This message was edited by DaBallz on Tue March 30 2004 at 01:54 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


DaBallz did you ever serve, and if where and in which unit??? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif
In case you serve(d) you should know the Genevan Convention and how to lay out them. In other case you better never own a gun, that would be better for mankind. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Farbe_und_Bunt
03-30-2004, 03:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Show me where it is CLEAR!
Until 1949 pilots hanging in chutes were fair game.
After 1949 it is not so clear.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"not so clear"? Sorry, but it is as commen law not allowed as written in Art. 42 of the geneva conventions.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I think you have a bad case of "cranial rectumitis"
This is a game, you are killing only DATA!
Dude, think, GAME. Pixels and digital, GAME.
This is not REAL LIFE. (sorry to pop yout bubble).

But I if I were driving a P-51 over Nuremburg
and I shot up a Bf-109 I would feel it is my DUTY
to finish off the pilot.
No hesitation, he would be vulture bait.

If he bailed over London, I would pass.

As to killing digital images of simulated pilots....
it's a blast! Bombers are great fun, lots of targets!

Da...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, indeed I would accept the "only data" argument in some cases, BUT if people think that, "shooting at chutes is right" and keep it in game as a principle to "kill the enemy", I only think, that they have no moral and maybee are not so smart, because there is no game necassary to shoot chutes down and for me it is just an expression of personal perversion.


(The only data argument would be understandable with arguments like: "Look, I just tried it, because i wanted to see, if it's possible." or
"I do it sometimes online on the easy-action-servers to bother my enemies/friends ..." or stuff like that.)

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif (http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de)

MadMacgunner
03-30-2004, 04:57 AM
Yes,both sides did it,and we could say that was war and you had to be there to understand it.
This is only a game,you harm nobody if you down a chute but if you cannot be a good person sat in your home playing pc,try to think what could you do if you were at war with some friends downed.
Try to be good persons now that you can.There is a lot of time to be animals


Vista suerte y al toro.

Garc*a Morato.Spanish civil war pilot

HuninMunin
03-30-2004, 05:16 AM
Shooting at beaten enemys is nothing more
than a waste of amunition and atention.
I rather take care of the other badguys hanging around.

P.S.
@DaBallz
Did you ever do parachuting (right word?)?
You can`t even hold your hand straight forward,
believe me, you could carry a stinger and you would`t be a thread to anyone.
a threat.

pourshot
03-30-2004, 06:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BADGER401:
The Austrialians would gun life boats of ships they had sunk on anti shipping strikes as well. In fact on the History channel just last week there was a film segment on the very thing including the footage of a Beaufighter pilot making 3 passes with guns on life boats after sinking a cargo ship....It was later shown in the theaters to boost morale. So it did happen. But I think it had a lot to do with the man behind the stick and his conscience later....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep it happend all the time and most time's they would go home reload call some friends and finish them all off.There was one sea battle where many 1000's of Japanese where killed in a single day but better to do it that way than in the jungle.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/mybaby.jpeg.JPG
Ride It Like Ya Stole It

pourshot
03-30-2004, 06:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:


In the Pacific it was very common. Japanese pilots shot Americans in their chutes. They did this due to their military code of Bushido. The enemy was to be vanquished. Doing anything less would have been dishonorable not only to the Japanese pilot but to his enemy as well, since it was concidered worse to survive a defeat in battle than to be killed in one.


.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cool so we should shoot all zero pilots in this game,that way honor is restored http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/mybaby.jpeg.JPG
Ride It Like Ya Stole It

carguy_
03-30-2004, 06:31 AM
What really freaks me out is that when I`m in the center of enemy territory and one guy busts my engine,he doesn`t let me bail even if my plane will go down anyway,nooo.He shoots me,so my plane will cut in half and give me no chance to bail.

Some idiots playing AEP actually think this is something else than straffing chutes.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

ShVAK
03-30-2004, 07:02 AM
You forgot to mention that in Bud Fortier's book, he also states that several of his Sqn members did shoot at German pilots in their chutes.

No different from FB.


"If you want full realism, join the military!"

SeaFireLIV
03-30-2004, 07:09 AM
Ok, I think i`ll be Devil`s advocate today and say...

Well it`s great not shooting enemy pilots over friendly areas, but some might escape (which is actually possible). So shoot! shoot them allllll!!

DaBallz
03-30-2004, 04:37 PM
"DaBallz did you ever serve, and if where and in which unit??? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif
In case you serve(d) you should know the Genevan Convention and how to lay out them. In other case you better never own a gun, that would be better for mankind. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif[/QUOTE]"

I seved in the USAF, sorry but I won't post my units
or the period in which I served.
I was required to know a few key passages from
the Geneva convention.
As to owning firearms, you will have to guess there as well.

And mr Kimura, no one has given any reason not
to shoot at a parachuting pilot bailing over his
home territory. It's foolhardy to let him survive.

As to the game, it's like shooting fish in a barrel, great sport!

da...

Gershy
03-30-2004, 05:24 PM
Well, I hate ppl shooting at chutes in online wars. There's just no honour in it. And I won't shoot at a plane trailing black smoke (I know some idiots even shoot at planes which are cut into pieces already just to get the kill). Don't get me wrong, if I'm in a fight I always aim for the cockpit and the engne in order to kill but if I see his plane is done or he already bailed I won't attack.

-----------------------------

So long.We wish you well.
You told us how you weren't afraid to die.
Well then, so long.Don't cry.
Or feel too down.
Not all martyrs see divinity.
But at least you tried.

brimigus
03-30-2004, 09:28 PM
How come only the AAA gunners get to shoot them down.Why do I have to be so chivalas it's so unfair.

EmptyStare
03-30-2004, 09:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brimigus:
How come only the AAA gunners get to shoot them down.Why do I have to be so chivalas it's so unfair.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
BECAUSE THE AI DOESNT CARE! THEY JUST KILL KILL KILL! AI IS TAKING OVER THE WORLD! BAH! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Yea it sucks and I dont know why it hasnt been fixed since the early days of IL2. Seems that Pilots are just like any other 'object' in the game. AI sees them and fires if theyre the enemy.
Personally I shoot all chutes, Friendly or not. Damn things take up the space in the sky. Sucks when youre flying through a cloud behind a 109, light his little engine on with 8 .50's and Your wing gets clipped from some Biplane pilot's chute. (I dont aim for the chutes, mostly the people - either is just as fun) If anything you should get Points for shooting down the chutes BECAUSE if the AI thinks theyre enemy targets and shoots them, just like tanks and supply trucks, Then you should to. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

Sure if she wasn't a nazi and if she was still alive - I'd Hump Her.
http://hazardous.50free.net/Hannah.JPG

Loco-S
03-30-2004, 10:35 PM
People who shoot at defenseless pilots who bailed out deserve court martials.

or better, be hang on the spot, and shot while they are still alive.

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif
Armis Bela, non venenis geri

leadbaloon
03-31-2004, 05:23 AM
Maybe it's flying the Axis planes that brings out the devil in me...

http://www.garethmccorry.co.uk/il2.html

Okay I give up trying to insert the damned picture, it's on the link above.