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View Full Version : Why Sam isn't wearing a balaclava???



LuckyBide
09-25-2012, 08:29 PM
Sorry if this thread may seems ridiculous but I wonder why Sam doesn't wear a balaclava anymore.
Sometimes in the "5th Freedom" trailer, I think that Sam's appearance would be much better with a balaclava.

And even for the Upper Echelon Suit, It seems strange (visually speaking) that Sam isn't wearing one:
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/6830/upperechelon.jpg

Or maybe devs don't want to show the others suits now...I hope so.

MerriIl
09-25-2012, 08:37 PM
I'm sure it will be an option to have different face masks in the game. I think they just want to show off the graphics and facial expressions right now. Bringing back all these classic goodies and forgetting the balaclava would be treacherous!

NightGhost1994
09-25-2012, 08:46 PM
I'm sure it will be an option to have different face masks in the game. I think they just want to show off the graphics and facial expressions right now. Bringing back all these classic goodies and forgetting the balaclava would be treacherous!
This!
I will pre-order the game, just because of the suit :D

reddragonhrcro
09-25-2012, 08:49 PM
Wow is that his old suit?Cool

Answer to the question:
Cuz hes sexy and he knows it.;)

SCCUser1978
09-26-2012, 02:09 AM
That is a great looking suit but I'm not going to "Pre-Order" the game...yet.:D

aznassassin159
09-26-2012, 02:13 AM
We have bigger problems to worry about than a balaclava...

SCCUser1978
09-26-2012, 02:31 AM
We have bigger problems to worry about than a balaclava...


I was just saying that I think it's a great looking suit. :)

MerriIl
09-26-2012, 02:31 AM
^ I'm not worried at all. From what I've seen and heard from the officials, I have never been more confident that Blacklist is going to not only reestablish SC as the forerunner in the stealth/action genre, but also reclaim the old school-hardcore stealth fans and gain new action gamers alike. The 5th Freedom trailer, while not showing us much AI, assures me that BL is in good hands.

FatePrice
09-26-2012, 02:33 AM
Sam's an action hero now. His face must be seen.

aznassassin159
09-26-2012, 02:43 AM
I have never been more confident that Blacklist is going to not only reestablish SC as the forerunner in the stealth/action genre, but also reclaim the old school-hardcore stealth fans and gain new action gamers alike. The 5th Freedom trailer, while not showing us much AI, assures me that BL is in good hands.
Nope, that description belongs to Metal Gear Solid Ground Zeroes. And Mark of the Ninja.

SCCUser1978
09-26-2012, 02:45 AM
Sam's an action hero now. His face must be seen.

I hope he's both, Action & Stealth. Actually I want more Stealth.:D

MerriIl
09-26-2012, 02:51 AM
Nope, that description belongs to Metal Gear Solid Ground Zeroes. And Mark of the Ninja.

MG:GZ - A game that has shown us one trailer that has less than a minute of Snake walking in the dark with no AI programmed in = Stealth/Action GOTY.....good conclusion.

As for MOTN, while it's a cool little stealth game, I don't personally rely on a 2d side-scrolling game to define stealth gaming. It does look neat though, and has tons of stealth.

aznassassin159
09-26-2012, 02:56 AM
MG:GZ - A game that has shown us one trailer that has less than a minute of Snake walking in the dark with no AI programmed in = Stealth/Action GOTY.....good conclusion.
You clearly didn't see the extended footage:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFO7h1iqRGQ

I saw more stealth in those 4 minutes than I did in all the blacklist footage combined.

MerriIl
09-26-2012, 03:03 AM
Actually, I was the one that originally posted the extended demo ;) This proves my point. Snake walks in the dark, kills a guard, walks into enemy grounds in plane light, and calls in a helicopter to pick him up. Stealth.

aznassassin159
09-26-2012, 03:14 AM
Snake walks in the dark
Which is stealthy.


kills a guard
Kills ONE guard, rather than shooting up the entire base.

With a suppressed weapon.

That's stealth.


walks into enemy grounds in plane light
When nobody is around. And he had to retreat when he saw the BTR coming in his direction. Which is stealthy.


and calls in a helicopter to pick him up.
He had to do it at the edge of the base to avoid enemy eyes. And if you blare music on it too loudly, you get caught, so you have to be discrete when taking the chopper. Much stealthier than calling in a UAV and laying down missile strikes.


Stealth.
Indeed.

mistahkmak
09-26-2012, 03:19 AM
i saw more stealth in those 4 minutes than i did in all the blacklist footage combined.

qft

SolidSage
09-26-2012, 03:44 AM
You clearly didn't see the extended footage:

I saw more stealth in those 4 minutes than I did in all the blacklist footage combined.
You clearly didn't pay much attention to the Blacklist footage then.

Not that MGGZ doesn't look good, it does and I'm sure stealth and action will be readily available as usual with the MG games, but in the SCB demo we had stealth all the way from leaving the tent, up the cliff, past the dog and guard, around the corner and up the wall whistling at the guard, dropping the guards in the puddle, and 'then' detection when DFA'ing the guy right before the Airstrike.
Then more stealth in the Ghost through avoiding the dog and guard, body carry, skirt the cliff, past the guard, up the cliff, avoid the airstrike.

I mean, they could have just had Sam crouch walk back and forth at the edge of the map and shoot JUST 1 guard I suppose, before extracting but I don't know, that seemed like just a way to show off slick graphics and "hey, check out the vehicles" you know?

Anyway, long ways to go yet, and I'm getting them both.

mistahkmak
09-26-2012, 04:01 AM
I mean, they could have just had Sam crouch walk back and forth at the edge of the map and shoot JUST 1 guard I suppose, before extracting but I don't know, that seemed like just a way to show off slick graphics and "hey, check out the vehicles" you know?
.


I would have preferred that.

It looks more like they sold out to me.

SolidSage
09-26-2012, 04:09 AM
I would have preferred that.

It looks more like they sold out to me.

Um, isn't the goal to 'sell out', of their product?

Let's be honest, SC started changing in PT when it got SvM and dialed in gun play better. Then CT was another change and added co-op and better aggro. Then DA1 was sunny side up, and DA 2 was JBA'tarded (personal opinion DA2 fans, no hate), then C'07 was homeless UPS box handler (jk) and C'10 was 'welcome action fans' and now B is "hey action fans, you don't have to leave just cos stealthers like to be alone in the dark & stealthers here is a list of things you asked for that we have complied with"(with more to come).

They are confronting the situation head on and taking the flak without really trying to defend themselves. If they do eventually release a good stealth through demo I will enjoy the fact that they obviously teased you guys way too much.

MerriIl
09-26-2012, 05:39 AM
Which is stealthy.

Kills ONE guard, rather than shooting up the entire base.

With a suppressed weapon.

That's stealth.

When nobody is around. And he had to retreat when he saw the BTR coming in his direction. Which is stealthy.

He had to do it at the edge of the base to avoid enemy eyes. And if you blare music on it too loudly, you get caught, so you have to be discrete when taking the chopper. Much stealthier than calling in a UAV and laying down missile strikes.


Indeed.

Walking in the dark IS stealthy, especially when you're 200ft away from the enemy with nothing but hills and brush around you. Not to mention boulders giving you shadows when the spotlights are coming your way. Gotta watch out for those spotlights, they're terribly fast. A kill is a kill. The new trailer showed Sam stealthily kill several guards at different times. Knifes are quiet, and the 5-7 is silenced. Yep, driving a open-top enemy vehicle with no disguise on is very stealthy. Seeing said vehicle go into reverse when you come into view isn't suspicious at all either. Enemy chopper picking you up on a road surrounding an open enemy base that has traffic on it?

Listen, I'm not saying MG:GZ isn't going to be stealthy, because I know it will, and I will buy it. What I'm saying is it's not that hard to see the stealth in BL, and that's just from what we've seen. It's as if you guys watch these demos and trailers and think that the situations that were shown are the only ways it can go down. Use your imagination, it's not that hard to put two and two together.

As for the few here that are absolutely losing their shiznit based off what we've seen, learn to compose yourselves. Especially if your above the age of 18.

I make you a deal: If BL releases and true stealth is not present, I will personally buy you all a frapacinno of your choice ;)

MadamTampini
09-26-2012, 05:51 AM
^ I'm not worried at all. From what I've seen and heard from the officials, I have never been more confident that Blacklist is going to not only reestablish SC as the forerunner in the stealth/action genre, but also reclaim the old school-hardcore stealth fans and gain new action gamers alike. The 5th Freedom trailer, while not showing us much AI, assures me that BL is in good hands.

I've never been LESS confident about Blacklist. In fact, all of my passion about the entire series has been sucked away with each piece of BL media being released, disappointment after disappointment and it's becoming more obvious that the devs don't understand what they are doing. Stealth is (in someone else's words) tacked-on, and that's obvious. I will continue to pay some attention to the development of new SC titles but seriously, what a friggin joke Ubi has turned Sam Fisher and Splinter Cell in to. A giant, explosive, guns-blazing, air-strike bombing, throat slashing, sad excuse for a "stealth" game, joke.

MerriIl
09-26-2012, 05:59 AM
Ubi has turned Sam Fisher and Splinter Cell in to. A giant, explosive, guns-blazing, air-strike bombing, throat slashing, sad excuse for a "stealth" game, joke.

Ironically, all four have been in previous Splinter Cells. There's plenty of stealth in Blacklist, and I'd say it's far from "tacked on". The only complaint I have is forced action, which there probably won't be too much of, but they're telling a story, so I'll hold judgement until we've actually played/experienced it.

MadamTampini
09-26-2012, 06:04 AM
Ironically, all four have been in previous Splinter Cells. There's plenty of stealth in Blacklist, and I'd say it's far from "tacked on". The only complaint I have is forced action, which there probably won't be too much of, but they're telling a story, so I'll hold judgement until we've actually played/experienced it.

Look dude, I've seen your posts and I have little patience to reply to your nit-picking at everyone who doesn't like what they see. Just because these things have "ironically" been in previous SC games doesn't mean jack squat. To understand where I am coming from is to understand the overall tone and atmosphere of a Splinter Cell game. The bombing of the oil rig is massively different to the indiscriminate bombing of generic turban-wearing "desert terrorists" which is called in by the player whenever they feel like it.

MerriIl
09-26-2012, 06:22 AM
Look dude, I've seen your posts and I have little patience to reply to your nit-picking at everyone who doesn't like what they see. Just because these things have "ironically" been in previous SC games doesn't mean jack squat. To understand where I am coming from is to understand the overall tone and atmosphere of a Splinter Cell game. The bombing of the oil rig is massively different to the indiscriminate bombing of generic turban-wearing "desert terrorists" which is called in by the player whenever they feel like it.

So you're saying that forced explosions are better than optional explosions? ;) I'm rarely ever nit-picking, and if I am, it's in reply to nit-pickers of BL such as yourself. It just takes a little more thought and observation to figure out that there is plenty of stealth in BL. I think Sage was saying in another thread that just because they aren't showing it in the way you want to see it doesn't mean it's not there. I'm not trying to get under your skin, I'm just trying to provide a different perspective at what we've seen and heard. After all, you shouldn't formulate your own opinion until hearing both sides and really paying attention to the details.

mistahkmak
09-26-2012, 01:56 PM
Um, isn't the goal to 'sell out', of their product?

Let's be honest, SC started changing in PT when it got SvM and dialed in gun play better. Then CT was another change and added co-op and better aggro. Then DA1 was sunny side up, and DA 2 was JBA'tarded (personal opinion DA2 fans, no hate), then C'07 was homeless UPS box handler (jk) and C'10 was 'welcome action fans' and now B is "hey action fans, you don't have to leave just cos stealthers like to be alone in the dark & stealthers here is a list of things you asked for that we have complied with"(with more to come).

They are confronting the situation head on and taking the flak without really trying to defend themselves. If they do eventually release a good stealth through demo I will enjoy the fact that they obviously teased you guys way too much.

But that is a gross oversimplification. Blacklist takes a giant poop all over the trilogies artistic integrity. They didn't want Sam to be a super human, but Toronto saying he is only a terminator if you want him to be, otherwise don't use a good portion of our "innovations", don't get shot or else you will regenerate like wolverine, avoid cliffs and ledges because you will climb like a monkey on Walter White's meth. Come on the original team would never have released this. Also toronto clearly doesn't understand Sam's character, if they actually cared for sc they would not have dehumanized sam, they would have taken him out of the game and let Eric play a new SC.

SCCUser1978
09-26-2012, 07:33 PM
But that is a gross oversimplification. Blacklist takes a giant poop all over the trilogies artistic integrity. They didn't want Sam to be a super human, but Toronto saying he is only a terminator if you want him to be, otherwise don't use a good portion of our "innovations", don't get shot or else you will regenerate like wolverine, avoid cliffs and ledges because you will climb like a monkey on Walter White's meth. Come on the original team would never have released this. Also toronto clearly doesn't understand Sam's character, if they actually cared for sc they would not have dehumanized sam, they would have taken him out of the game and let Eric play a new SC.

How can you there's no "Stealth"?? The developers only released videos outside.

shobhit7777777
09-26-2012, 07:50 PM
Which is stealthy.

Kills ONE guard, rather than shooting up the entire base.

With a suppressed weapon.

That's stealth.


When nobody is around. And he had to retreat when he saw the BTR coming in his direction. Which is stealthy.


He had to do it at the edge of the base to avoid enemy eyes. And if you blare music on it too loudly, you get caught, so you have to be discrete when taking the chopper. Much stealthier than calling in a UAV and laying down missile strikes.


Indeed.


Whoa Azn....aren't you being extremely biased?

The very things you described as Stealth have been shown in several of the SCB videos...and in fact more than the MGS demo. Dogs, diversions, stealth kills, LTL gadgets, body dragging, deep dark shadows etc.

I think you've been blindsided by the marketing campaign and have lost sight of the richness of stealth in SCB. That's understandable. But at least try to be reasonable.

The game will be as stealthy as you want it to be.

If you wind the clocks back a few years when you never heard of SCCT..and I posted a video where I speed run my way through killing everything and using frags in one of the leves...would you still perceive it as a stealth darling?

Yeah the videos show a lot of over the top action....but it is also evident that the game will have solid sneaking mechanics as well. Couple that with the sandbox level design and the faster, smarter AI...and you have a great stealth-action game.

If you can't see past that.....*shrugs

Also, Mark of the Ninja....a game being heralded as the "return of stealth" borrows heavily from gameplay elements from Arkham Asylum, Conviction and the legacy SC games. It just blends them extremely well and gets on through fantastic level design (consequentially stealth puzzles are awesome).
If you can dissect Conviction and Batman's gameplay...add in SCB's newfound elements...you have a fantastic stealth-action game.


@Merril

Well said

MadamTampini
09-26-2012, 08:13 PM
I would love to know where the media is that some people are getting the "rich, deep, real stealth" assumptions from, because I haven't seen a single piece of media that shows "rich, deep, real stealth" in BL. I MUST have missed something! Someone, please show me where these comments are coming from.

MerriIl
09-26-2012, 08:45 PM
I would love to know where the media is that some people are getting the "rich, deep, real stealth" assumptions from, because I haven't seen a single piece of media that shows "rich, deep, real stealth" in BL. I MUST have missed something! Someone, please show me where these comments are coming from.

So far we haven't necessarily seen any solid proof that there will be a truly fluid stealth system, but we have heard plenty of times that the game will play to our liking - ghost, panther or action. Being that ghost is pure stealth and panther is aggressive stealth, it's safe to assume that stealth will be a giant part of BL. It 's not difficult to pull from what we've seen and acknowledge that there are plenty of stealth elements in BL.

There's a good 10-15 seconds straight in the 5th Freedom trailer that is stealth kills and sneaking. Don't mistake short clips for poor stealth, after all it's a 2 minute trailer that's clearly under strict direction for marketing purposes.

SolidSage
09-26-2012, 08:55 PM
But that is a gross oversimplification. Blacklist takes a giant poop all over the trilogies artistic integrity. They didn't want Sam to be a super human, but Toronto saying he is only a terminator if you want him to be, otherwise don't use a good portion of our "innovations", don't get shot or else you will regenerate like wolverine, avoid cliffs and ledges because you will climb like a monkey on Walter White's meth. Come on the original team would never have released this. Also toronto clearly doesn't understand Sam's character, if they actually cared for sc they would not have dehumanized sam, they would have taken him out of the game and let Eric play a new SC.
Blacklist isn't pooping on anything, the trilogy is long over. Playing CT now is as awesome as before. Blacklist doesn't affect that in any way.
You can play like Terminator on easy sure.
Regenerative health isn't any sillier than taking several bullets then going to a first aid kit, drinking some medicine and presto, I'm ALL better. The only difference there is that the healing process is a cooler mini game and animation in CT (the only legacy I will reference since it's the best of them IMO).
Cliff climbing animation needs to be better, agreed.
Sam seems more human to me since SCC, less action tough guy in the CGI than old games. But I do miss the humor, especially with guards in choke holds. The CGI now is much better, the human element in CT 'game play' is better.

shobhit7777777
09-26-2012, 09:02 PM
I would love to know where the media is that some people are getting the "rich, deep, real stealth" assumptions from, because I haven't seen a single piece of media that shows "rich, deep, real stealth" in BL. I MUST have missed something! Someone, please show me where these comments are coming from.

name elements that YOU feel make up a great stealth experience and I'll be happy to cross them off the list...

aznassassin159
09-27-2012, 12:48 AM
Whoa Azn....aren't you being extremely biased?
I try to be as objective as possible. Except for the Jadid stint I pulled off earlier today, which was me grasping at straws in order to act like an ***.


The very things you described as Stealth have been shown in several of the SCB videos...and in fact more than the MGS demo. Dogs, diversions, stealth kills, LTL gadgets, body dragging, deep dark shadows etc.
The thing is that if you compare all that with the over-the-top explosion fests that Ubisoft seemed more than eager to show off, these stealth elements seem trivial.

As an analogy, look at the Uncharted games. They had stealth kills, diversions, shadows, etc. Does that make Uncharted feel like a stealth game? Of course not. The rest of the time, the game had you had you manning a gatling gun and taking out entire helicopter formations, or shooting enemies while hanging from a plane. That's exactly how the marketing of Splinter Cell Blacklist feels: tons of action, with stealth begrudgingly taking the backseat.

If MGS coupled its gameplay with Snake dashing around and calling in airstrikes while aim-boting 4 people at once as its opening debut, then yes, I'd be pretty miffed. And yes, I know MGS has its share of intense action moments, but those don't happen except for boss battles or sections in the story's climax. Everything else was stealth.


The game will be as stealthy as you want it to be.
I'll believe that when I see it. The only games that actually managed to pull that off were Hitman and Deus Ex.


If you wind the clocks back a few years when you never heard of SCCT..and I posted a video where I speed run my way through killing everything and using frags in one of the leves...would you still perceive it as a stealth darling?
You can kill everyone throughout the entire campaign and I'll still perceive it as stealth. The thing that separates Chaos Theory with Blacklist is that in Chaos Theory, you're still gonna need to be pretty **** stealthy if you want to kill everyone in your way without getting filled with lead even on Easy difficulty. In Blacklist, you can effortlessly kill 6 people at once without breaking stride. All at the press of a few buttons.


Yeah the videos show a lot of over the top action....but it is also evident that the game will have solid sneaking mechanics as well.
I'll be the judge of that. I still feel the sneaking mechanics are tacked on. (See Uncharted)


Couple that with the sandbox level design and the faster, smarter AI...and you have a great stealth-action game.
Again, as I said in a previous post, I'll believe it when I see it. I didn't see anything sandbox-y about it besides convenient cliffdrops, even if it is just one level. MGS Ground Zeroes looked far more open world than Blacklist did. As for faster smarter AI, that sounds like another developer "promise" that I'll disregard until I see the final build. Afterall, in the ghost playthrough, the dog's handler was apparently incapable of seeing anything that's more than 5 degrees off of his plane of symmetry.

MadamTampini
09-27-2012, 01:18 AM
name elements that YOU feel make up a great stealth experience and I'll be happy to cross them off the list...

ATMOSPHERE. BL just like Conviction lacks the soul a game needs to have the longevity of games like Chaos Theory. Games that lack soul are hard to describe, but it becomes pretty obvious when played.

MerriIl
09-27-2012, 01:25 AM
ATMOSPHERE. BL just like Conviction lacks the soul a game needs to have the longevity of games like Chaos Theory. Games that lack soul are hard to describe, but it becomes pretty obvious when played.

You haven't played BL though, so that's quite the assumption. It may end up having tons of soul and ambiance.

CamberGreber
09-27-2012, 01:28 AM
Balaclavas for everyone :) .........sorry I'll let myself out.

MadamTampini
09-27-2012, 01:31 AM
You haven't played BL though, so that's quite the assumption. It may end up having tons of soul and ambiance.

I don't even feel like I need to touch the game at this point to know what it's like. It's so transparent through the trailers that BL is lackluster at best.

mistahkmak
09-27-2012, 01:43 AM
Sam seems more human to me since SCC, less action tough guy in the CGI than old games.


WHAATT? Eric's character doesn't seem human at all. Sam atleast had justification to be pissed in conv, but what is Eric's excuse in blacklist to be a psychotic marking, slashin, kneck snapping, grenade dropping, ac130 blasting maniac toronto made him.

MerriIl
09-27-2012, 06:09 AM
I don't even feel like I need to touch the game at this point to know what it's like. It's so transparent through the trailers that BL is lackluster at best.

I hope they can change your opinion in the coming months ;)

MadamTampini
09-27-2012, 08:04 AM
I hope they can change your opinion in the coming months ;)

If they can give me a product that genuinely makes me excited and convinces me BL is not really how it's marketed, I would fall in love again. After being let down at first with DA then severely turned-off by Conviction, nothing would flatter my hobby (and passion, really! with patience wearing thin unfortunately) of gaming as much as a worthy Splinter Cell title. If I had known how lame Conviction was going to be, I would have cherished DA a lot more.

shobhit7777777
09-27-2012, 09:00 AM
The thing is that if you compare all that with the over-the-top explosion fests that Ubisoft seemed more than eager to show off, these stealth elements seem trivial.

As an analogy, look at the Uncharted games. They had stealth kills, diversions, shadows, etc. Does that make Uncharted feel like a stealth game? Of course not. The rest of the time, the game had you had you manning a gatling gun and taking out entire helicopter formations, or shooting enemies while hanging from a plane. That's exactly how the marketing of Splinter Cell Blacklist feels: tons of action, with stealth begrudgingly taking the backseat.


Marketing often has different goals than the dev team ;)

See the thing is that the backbone of SCB is based upon 3 player archetypes - Ghost, Panther and Action. This is official BTW. The devs have stated that they want to deliver a game which is rock solid in all three areas....equal enjoyment.

They have shown us ONE WAY of playing it in the trailers...an aggressive high octane approach. This is simply a shout out to people who enjoy such experiences to take a look at what SCB can offer.

You saw Eric (Yup, I refer to "Sam" as Eric now since that really makes the transition easier) slash throats, shoot guys and blow up doors....but what you didn't see was the guy who was playing AS Eric Fisher. These were all gameplay moments..moments defined by YOU, the player. Imagine if I showed you a gameplay video of Chaos Theory, a sizzle reel where I shoot, frag and stab my way through....does that make Sam Fisher a bloodthirsty demon and SCCT an action game?

It is all player dependant. I find it extremely silly to see a guy shoot stuff up in SCB and label the entire game as an action fest. It is just ONE way of playing it. Your perception of the game is skewed because of this.

And since you like to look at things objectively lets take a long hard look at the game:

1. SCB has 3 player archetypes (Ghost, Panther and Action)

2. For each of these archetypes to work the levels will naturally be sandbox environments with a lot of variety

3. Conviction's D-ops mode and the DLC packs were chock full of brilliant, complex levels that made sneaking around a lot of fun and engaging

4. Abilities like Diversion, Body dragging and LTL options are back - this enriches the existing Stealth gameplay

5. AI archetypes have been mentioned and one of them the 'Dog' is back...

6. Conviction's AI, while lacking long range hearing and being more twitchy were still smarter and faster than legacy AI in many fields. Now with the addition of diversions and a 3 stage stealth system you can be sure that they will go into investigative mode.

7. ALL of the stuff shown is PRE ALPHA! Do you realize what that means? The game is in it's infancy! Nothing works properly. A lot of the systems have not been implemented. Now is it fair on your behalf to demand that all the guards have 6/6 vision when the team is just sorting out the art pipeline? It doesn't work that way.
It's like criticizing a newborn's motor skills


Any game is a system comprised of several mechanics that work together. Look at them together and you'll see them mesh well into a fully formed game.

I had the EXACT same arguments on the Hitman forums...absolutely IDENTICAL. The "Old School" on seeing the RFYL playthrough was up in arms and yelling about the lack of "Hitman" stealth and linearity of levels.

I explained, to the best of my abilities, just like I did here..that the game will be a bigger better version of previous games BECAUSE of the additions and how the systems would interact with each other. A few months down the line...I was 100% correct.
I don't have a magic crystal ball or anything.....I just saw all the mechanics, the additions, the systems and it was clear to me how the game would pan out. Simple. I'm applying the same logice here.

Bottom line - A majority of the "action" segments will depend on the player's style. Some scenes will be scripted, as they always have been in SC games. But the way YOU want to play will be completely supported.


@MadamTampini

ATMOSPHERE. BL just like Conviction lacks the soul a game needs to have the longevity of games like Chaos Theory. Games that lack soul are hard to describe, but it becomes pretty obvious when played.

And you've judged the entire game based on marketing hype and CGI trailers? On pre-alpha footage? The ENTIRE game?
*shrugs*

MerriIl
09-27-2012, 09:11 AM
^ Everyone read this with an open mind. It's worded almost perfectly.

MadamTampini
09-27-2012, 06:04 PM
@MadamTampini


And you've judged the entire game based on marketing hype and CGI trailers? On pre-alpha footage? The ENTIRE game?
*shrugs*

Of course, because that's why marketing exists, so you can taste the game before getting your own hands on it. I've said this so many times, if the marketing isn't accurate why would they use that marketing material. We've SEEN a "stealth-through" and it was really disappointing to say the least. I don't need anything more to show me BL is Conviction 2. I don't like the "taking cover" aspect yet it's necessary or the player will be spotted. The "warning" crap is obnoxious and takes the player out of the game. Yes, I can indeed judge the game from what they've shown us, because THAT'S WHY THEY'VE SHOWN US STUFF!!!

shobhit7777777
09-27-2012, 06:24 PM
Of course, because that's why marketing exists, so you can taste the game before getting your own hands on it. I've said this so many times, if the marketing isn't accurate why would they use that marketing material. We've SEEN a "stealth-through" and it was really disappointing to say the least. I don't need anything more to show me BL is Conviction 2. I don't like the "taking cover" aspect yet it's necessary or the player will be spotted. The "warning" crap is obnoxious and takes the player out of the game. Yes, I can indeed judge the game from what they've shown us, because THAT'S WHY THEY'VE SHOWN US STUFF!!!

Unfortunately thats not how their marketing works. They work on targets. In this case the Uncharted/GOW/COD crowd. The marketing will show elements of the game that would appeal to that specific group right? But we also saw some tidbits that work for us as well.

So they are giving out a taste...but to the action folks.

Does that set the tone for the entire game? unlikely. Not with all the additions to the game and the focus on stealth this time around.

Either way lets wait for more gameplay.

Jazz117Volkov
09-27-2012, 06:28 PM
@ MadamTampini
Customizable HUD has been confirmed by Beland.
Fair chance that the detection ring thingy can be switched off. (he made a point of saying LKP can be turning off)

aznassassin159
09-27-2012, 06:36 PM
See the thing is that the backbone of SCB is based upon 3 player archetypes - Ghost, Panther and Action. This is official BTW. The devs have stated that they want to deliver a game which is rock solid in all three areas....equal enjoyment.
See, the DEVS STATE that. Until I actually see that, it's just empty words for me. I've seem plenty of devs state "official" info, only for it to be absent in the current build. Hell, I remember when Crytek said that Crysis 2 equally favors both action and stealth mindsets. Unfortunately, the stealth was completely broken and clearly did not have nearly the same workload put into it than did the shooting mechanics. I'm not saying that Ubi Toronto is definitely going to pull that crap off. Afterall, maybe they'll pull an IO Interactive and actually show us this hemogeny of stealth an action. But then again, I don't have any real reason to trust them at this point either.


You saw Eric (Yup, I refer to "Sam" as Eric now since that really makes the transition easier) slash throats, shoot guys and blow up doors....but what you didn't see was the guy who was playing AS Eric Fisher. These were all gameplay moments..moments defined by YOU, the player. Imagine if I showed you a gameplay video of Chaos Theory, a sizzle reel where I shoot, frag and stab my way through....does that make Sam Fisher a bloodthirsty demon and SCCT an action game?
You can show me a gameplay walkthrough of the entire Chaos Theory campaign using only bullets and frags. I'll still consider it a stealth game. What separates CT from Blacklist is that in CT, you're gonna need to be pretty bloody deliberate and sneaky to kill everyone in sight without having your face turned into swiss cheese. That goes double if you're gonna use something as loud as a frag grenade. Even killing one person in CT with a silenced pistol is a huge gamble. In Blacklist, however, you can effortlessly barrel through six enemies without breaking stride, all at the press of a few buttons. There's not nearly as much premeditation or discretion required than it was for CT. That's not stealth more than it is running and gunning.


1. SCB has 3 player archetypes (Ghost, Panther and Action)

2. For each of these archetypes to work the levels will naturally be sandbox environments with a lot of variety.
More "official" things said by the developer. Once I see it, I'll believe it.


3. Conviction's D-ops mode and the DLC packs were chock full of brilliant, complex levels that made sneaking around a lot of fun and engaging
While it was an improvement over Conviction's campaign, it still felt transparent.


4. Abilities like Diversion, Body dragging and LTL options are back - this enriches the existing Stealth gameplay
A few stealth gimmicks doesn't make something stealthy. COD has all three of those things, for instance. Hell, the Syphon Filter PSP games had those IIRC, yet it devolved into a cover-third person shooter.


5. AI archetypes have been mentioned and one of them the 'Dog' is back...
Again, more developer mentions. Though I like that they added dogs, but who knows how many brain cells that thing will have.


6. Conviction's AI, while lacking long range hearing and being more twitchy were still smarter and faster than legacy AI in many fields. Now with the addition of diversions and a 3 stage stealth system you can be sure that they will go into investigative mode.
I thought they were bloody stupid, especially with the Last Known Position mechanic that made enemies even easier to kill than before since they just stay in one position and look in only one direction. I see no improvement between the AI in Conviction and the Legacy games, aside from the fact that the Conviction enemies would probably empty out 15 magazines into the wall if they so much as hear someone cracking open a beer.


ALL of the stuff shown is PRE ALPHA! Do you realize what that means? The game is in it's infancy! Nothing works properly. A lot of the systems have not been implemented. Now is it fair on your behalf to demand that all the guards have 6/6 vision when the team is just sorting out the art pipeline? It doesn't work that way.
No, and my main criticisms were not about the guards having an IQ of 3. My main criticisms were the imprementation of run-and-gun and the apparent lack of stealth. You can't just fix an alpha of that, can you?


Any game is a system comprised of several mechanics that work together. Look at them together and you'll see them mesh well into a fully formed game.
Once I actually see game mechanics other than KIM and some stealth moves, and I'll start meshing.


I had the EXACT same arguments on the Hitman forums...absolutely IDENTICAL. The "Old School" on seeing the RFYL playthrough was up in arms and yelling about the lack of "Hitman" stealth and linearity of levels.

I explained, to the best of my abilities, just like I did here..that the game will be a bigger better version of previous games BECAUSE of the additions and how the systems would interact with each other. A few months down the line...I was 100% correct.
I've seen similar arguments in the SOCOM forums regarding how SOCOM 4 will preserve the majority of classic SOCOM game mechanics. "Hey, it's in alpha stage, you can't judge that! Hey, Zipper Interactive said hardcore SOCOM fans will love it, so you should trust them! Hey, we have game modes like suppression, so it preserved its SOCOMness!" Come game release and they were 100% wrong.

So yeah, I am glad to be proven wrong about Hitman. I hope to be proven wrong about Splinter Cell. But hey, it's not like I haven't seen other gaming franchises crumble under the weight of broken promises and hopes.

So yes, I'm still going to complain about what I'm seeing so far. And I'm still going to be skeptical about anything that comes out of the developer's mouths. That being said, I will gladly eat my own words with tartar sauce and film myself doing it and show it to all of you is Ubisoft actually turns out to stick true to what they say.

MerriIl
09-28-2012, 08:52 AM
I'd like to see one like this
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs12/f/2006/320/9/d/Sam_by_DnaTemjin.jpg

StrayDog_RR
09-28-2012, 10:28 AM
I'd like to see one like this
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs12/f/2006/320/9/d/Sam_by_DnaTemjin.jpg

Nice... but I'd like to see the suit + banclava from Iceland mission in SCDA NG ... it's my favourite suit.

shobhit7777777
09-28-2012, 11:32 AM
See, the DEVS STATE that. Until I actually see that, it's just empty words for me. I've seem plenty of devs state "official" info, only for it to be absent in the current build. Hell, I remember when Crytek said that Crysis 2 equally favors both action and stealth mindsets. Unfortunately, the stealth was completely broken and clearly did not have nearly the same workload put into it than did the shooting mechanics. I'm not saying that Ubi Toronto is definitely going to pull that crap off. Afterall, maybe they'll pull an IO Interactive and actually show us this hemogeny of stealth an action. But then again, I don't have any real reason to trust them at this point either.


I'm not going to ask you to implicitly trust the devs...thats not my prerogative. I can however show you HOW you can "link the dots". Also, Inspite of the huge size, I urge you to read through it ALL.

What the design rests on is 'Prerequisites'. All mechanics merge into a system and the system is intricately connected, change one thing here and you get a ripple effect throughout the entire system...requiring you to change the rest.

Prerequisites are things which tie into certain mechanics and can be used to derive the basic framework of how Blacklist might play. Lets take a look at what we have seen, but before we do here are some widely accepted assumptions

1. The Dev team consists of professional, educated, specialised, highly creative and intelligent people who have evidently listened to the forum (They wouldn't be in Ubi behind SCB otherwise)
2. Conviction was a prototype where this dev team showcased their ability to portray Sandbox levels and multiple approaches in a stealth game (Deniable Ops)
3. Ghost and Panther are fully fledged stealth playstyles and are core pillars in SCB
4. ALL of the footage we have seen is Pre-Alpha - WIP

And I'm making a personal assumption about you that you indeed are looking at it objectively and not being a pissed off, nostalgia blinded fan as your sig would indicate. I'm implicitly trusting you to be clear minded and logical here.


Now onto the core of the argument - Prerequisites

Lets take a look at what we have seen:

1. Diversions:
In the E3 demo we clearly saw a whistle/distraction call being used to draw in a guard closer. The player speaks into the kinect or presses the appropriate button and the guard moves in casually to investigate the source.

Now what does this mean? Well for such a mechanic to work it would need the following prerequisites:

- AI sensitive to sound. The AI needs to have a clear aural radius to investigate such a thing. The fact that Max Beland confirmed repeatedly that the player is able to buy "Silent" shoes re-enforces the fact

- AI is not schizo anymore and has an Investigative state. Unlike in Conviction where the AI would investigate a disturbance (Sticky Cam or Car Alarm ONLY) and go into an alerted search mode..the AI would have to have a deeper investigative routine for this mechanic to actually work.
Furthermore, after pulling the distracted guy from the ledge you see his two buddies INVESTIGATE the body instead of straight out raising the alarm. This further cements the presence of a deeper tier of AI reactions.
Also this invariably would lead to a better L/S system, away fromt he "Binary" state in Conviction which people disliked. It can be said that the Stealth system will have a deeper investigative buffer for the AI if Sam is "barely" spotted....if you take into account the return of the Light meter (as in SCDA) as a hint.

- More ways to fool around with the AI. They won't implement a complicated system like that for just one mechanic. Thats wastage and devs don't work like that. This will tie into other ways to distract and play with the AI using sound, movement etc. That, in my books, is a win for the "Stealth" column


2. Hiding Bodies:
In the Ghost Playthrough of the same level we saw Zack pick up and carry a body.
For this mechanic to make ANY sense or have much of an impact to gameplay the following pre-requisites are mandatory

- LTL is back. It would make the act of hiding a body that much more important. It not only allows a player to clean his tracks but also to prevent anybody from getting back up again. Add to that the confirmation of LTL moves and gadgets (The Crossbow firing a sticky shocker) and we have undeniable proof of LTL being a valid and supported playstyle choice.

- Hardcore Stealth plays a bigger role in SCB. Hiding a body is a pretty hardcore mechanic. A lot of time and effort goes in implementing such a mechanic. You can be sure that other systems like AI behaviour tie into it (response to a body found) and this will invariably impact mission design. Why would they allow the player to hide a body unless it actually mattered? apart from the whole "Choose your playstyle" line the hiding bodies will become and intricate part in determining how stealthy you are when it comes to the missions in SCB


3. Dogs
Again clearly visible in the Ghost playthrough. This not only indicates a challenge for the uber sneaky player but also hints at the "AI archetypes" that Pat Redding mentioned in an interview IIRC

Pre-requisites:

- Stealth focus. Putting in an AI archetype which works for a stealthy scenario only re-enforces the notion that the devs have gone through quite a lot of effort to beef up the sneakier side of the game. Just like Hiding bodies and diversions, the dogs are primarily a stealth focused mechanic. I can easily see how the two systems would blend together - Dogs sniffing out carelessly hidden bodies?
Also, Dogs would be perfect for 'Infiltration' scenario..just takes a little imagination

- Larger level size. They won't place a sniffer dogs in bathroom. We have seen how the tracking works and it is evident that evasion will require verticality, understanding the layout of the level and an area large enough to avoide the dog and the handler. Using vertical and natural obstacles willd definitely come into play. A larger level will also support more approaches and routes to objectives...this adds to the whole 3 player archetype gameplay of SCB AND feeds off of it.


4. Level Design
The game HAS to have sandbox levels of large size in order to deliver on the gameplay. Going by Conviction's example, the devs will deliver.
Conviction was an aggro-stealth prototype. Its entire gameplay hinged on Sandboxes, Character Agility and AI routines. This it did very well. The D-Ops DLC maps are widely regarded by many (including some on the forum here) to be some of the best in the franchise.

SCB will logically ramp it up more to accomodate the 3 player archetypes. The added mechanics mentioned above will only feed into it.

The fact is that the game's brilliance will be dependant on level design. The devs know this, they are a professional and intelligent bunch. It cannot be anyother way. Conviction was a fair example of how they are perfectly capable of creating stealth focused, complex, multi tiered levels.



The above is simply a small example of how the systems are interconnected and how we can piece together the information we have to get a clearer picture of how Blacklist will pan out.
This is identical to the argument in Hitman Absolution...and the results are clear to see.



You can show me a gameplay walkthrough of the entire Chaos Theory campaign using only bullets and frags. I'll still consider it a stealth game. What separates CT from Blacklist is that in CT, you're gonna need to be pretty bloody deliberate and sneaky to kill everyone in sight without having your face turned into swiss cheese. That goes double if you're gonna use something as loud as a frag grenade. Even killing one person in CT with a silenced pistol is a huge gamble. In Blacklist, however, you can effortlessly barrel through six enemies without breaking stride, all at the press of a few buttons. There's not nearly as much premeditation or discretion required than it was for CT. That's not stealth more than it is running and gunning.

My mistake, let me rephrase
What if I showed you an action packed montage of SCCT to you...assuming you were new to the entire franchise?
It's all about perception. If you were a first timer you wouldn't call it a stealth game would you as I edited in stabs, neck breaks, shotguns and frags with quick cuts and dubstep? If I intercut the video with some of the more overt CGI scenes?

Also, I completely disagree with you on the difficulty of "stealth" in CT. Legacy games and CT were VERY easy. Their slow pace and the health system coupled with Sam's inability to shoot came up with the ILLUSION of being uber tough games. I've played SCCT back to front and Conviction as well...and I find SCC to be far better tactical stealth game.
I've done the whole aggro run through SCCT - shooting, fraggin, stabbing and killing and it was extremely easy....EXTREMELY. In fact I died more in Conviction trying the same tactics than in SCCT and SCDA COMBINED.
Killing one person in SCCT is easy as pissing and has no consequences at all because usually there IS ONLY one person there!

SCC had enemies that were faster, more lethal, more in number and reacted far quickly than ANY legacy counterpart. They ganged up on you, moved faster and even fought off frontal CQC attacks. They had better searching patterns, better LOS and faster in reaction to hostile player activity. It encouraged you to NOT alert them or engage them directly. I died more from going gung-ho in SCC than going Gung-Ho in SC1-SCCT.
And I'm not just talking out of my ***....I actually took the time out to study the AI in detail...AND compare it to the legacy games.

Stealth is only a challenge when the AI can actually fight back, is fast and outnumbers you. Not in the legacy games where there were hardly more than 3 guards in an area at a time. Sorry, but I find the notion of sneaking by ONE guard or killing ONE guy in a large empty space utterly devoid of ANY tactical planning or "stealth".



I would address Crysis 2 and SOCOM4 as well..but I feel that this post is long enough already. Crysis 2 Delivered a better stealth experience than Crysis 1 IMO and SOCOM4 was from the beginning a washout...I'm not going to defend that...unlike SCB. I'm basing my views on things which can be justified...connecting the dots..like a detective ;)



Also lets put things into perspective:

SCB Stealth related stuff:

1. Diversions
2. Carrying Bodies
3. CTE
4. Knife
5. Abduction moves and LTL
6. Dogs
7. Sticky Shocker
8. Drone like Sticky Cam
9. PEC that rewards all playstyles including stealth
10. AI with investigative mode
11. B/W Gone
12. Hardcore mode

SCB Action related stuff

1. Killing in Motion (I know you won't consider it an multi-approach tool so..)
2. Blindfire
3. ?
4. Scripted Sequences? IDK not really gameplay mechanic so...

Yeah..Im out.

SolidSage
09-28-2012, 06:08 PM
WHAATT? Eric's character doesn't seem human at all. Sam atleast had justification to be pissed in conv, but what is Eric's excuse in blacklist to be a psychotic marking, slashin, kneck snapping, grenade dropping, ac130 blasting maniac toronto made him.

You're talking about marketing spin and the way a Player represented Sam. I was talking about Eric's voice and visual acting and the design of Sam's character that reflects some more human elements.
We've been told a bunch of times already that the Player does not have to use M&E, KIM, Airstrikes, etc. Just like in Conviction (co-op, I am ALWAYS referencing co-op because it's significantly better than the SP) where you could work the stealth fine without using lots of the tools. I play without Sonar, M&E, cover to cover or high speed running and ledge climbing and the game feels a lot like old titles mechanically. What's missing is the espionage objectives and technical tool set to deal with those elements.
I'm getting OT there.

YES balaclavas like in Chaos Theory or Kestrel's or the Shadow Armor......Balaclavas are the bomb. And they allow for a better immersion connection with avatar from a player stand point. It's not Sam, it's ME!! :)

Sh4dowKnight47
05-20-2013, 11:39 AM
I saw more stealth in those 4 minutes than I did in all the blacklist footage combined.

look man u dont just come on splinter cell forums and talk about other stealth games that are nowhere near the stealth action in splinter cell and everyone else on this forum will agree with me.

SCAgent95
05-20-2013, 11:46 AM
look man u dont just come on splinter cell forums and talk about other stealth games that are nowhere near the stealth action in splinter cell and everyone else on this forum will agree with me.

Did you seriously reply to someone from a thread that was made in 2012? LOL.

Dome500
05-20-2013, 01:13 PM
Man where did you dig that thread out ? oO

SCAgent95
05-20-2013, 01:23 PM
Man where did you dig that thread out ? oO

I don't know ask the other guy :nonchalance:

Astallion7duckX
07-04-2014, 10:05 PM
Definitely should add a balaclava to the DLC. That would seriously make this game the epitome of perfection. And if somehow Archer surreptitiously and creatively faked his own death, though in accordance to the story line, I recognize the indicative impossibility of that. However a balaclava is very possible as previously eluded. Maybe Archer's headgear on the DLC shelf as well?

sgt_brent
07-05-2014, 01:47 AM
The reason the Balaclava was not an option was because the investment Ubisoft put into the new performance capture technology used to create cutscenes and cinematic moments.... If the player was allowed to put a cover over Sam's face, the entire investment was just covered up..... Quite literally.

They wanted to show it off.

It's that simple.

KevinPDZ0916
07-05-2014, 09:08 AM
The reason the Balaclava was not an option was because the investment Ubisoft put into the new performance capture technology used to create cutscenes and cinematic moments.... If the player was allowed to put a cover over Sam's face, the entire investment was just covered up..... Quite literally.

They wanted to show it off.

It's that simple.

It may be that simple, but I don't believe that gives Ubisoft an excuse to not include the balaclava as an unlockable customization item after completing the SP campaign in the very least. The fact that Briggs is wearing a balaclava in Site F and the Spies have one in SvM prove that. It was there, and they could have let the player use it. From what I remember, Jazz said that the balaclava PC mod looks awesome, especially during cut-scenes. I hope we can use it anytime I. SC7.

I get the importance of motion capture and the fact that they wanted to show it off, but I they used the balaclava for trickery in the narrative, so that you could not identify "Sam" as Briggs in Site F until the big reveal later on on that mission. Again, the fact that a balaclava was in the game code, and the fact that they used it once in SP and all through SvM still means they should have let players customize Sam with it. Especially a game with a customization system. Since blacklist has even different goggle colors, such as purple and pink, there is no excuse for no balaclava customization.

SanityAgathion
07-05-2014, 10:48 AM
To add to Brent's point, Briggs does not say whole lot in Site F mission (probably by purpose), and spies in SvM are not the talkative types either. I do agree it should become available for side missions and post-campaign playthrough at least.

Dome500
07-05-2014, 06:14 PM
It may be that simple, but I don't believe that gives Ubisoft an excuse to not include the balaclava as an unlockable customization item after completing the SP campaign in the very least. The fact that Briggs is wearing a balaclava in Site F and the Spies have one in SvM prove that. It was there, and they could have let the player use it. From what I remember, Jazz said that the balaclava PC mod looks awesome, especially during cut-scenes. I hope we can use it anytime I. SC7.

It does. I'm playing with it since I got it. It's amazing and I have had no problems with it so far :D

SCCUser1978
07-06-2014, 05:51 PM
It does. I'm playing with it since I got it. It's amazing and I have had no problems with it so far

The only levels that It can't work are 1:Insurgent Stronghold 2:Abandoned Mill 3: LNG-Terminal.
Besides that, the balaclava works perfectly.

KevinPDZ0916
07-07-2014, 12:21 AM
The only levels that It can't work are 1:Insurgent Stronghold 2:Abandoned Mill 3: LNG-Terminal.
Besides that, the balaclava works perfectly.

Why do those particular levels not work with the balaclava mod? Is it your PC, your game, or the mod that is causing this to happen? I don't have the PC version, so I have no idea about anything that could be causing it.

@Dome, do those particular missions not work for you too on the PC with the balaclava mod on?

LoneSpymaster
07-07-2014, 06:35 AM
Why do those particular levels not work with the balaclava mod? Is it your PC, your game, or the mod that is causing this to happen? I don't have the PC version, so I have no idea about anything that could be causing it.

@Dome, do those particular missions not work for you too on the PC with the balaclava mod on?
Is there anyway to have that on xbox 360 version x.x? hate i dont have a good pc to play in,to many moods and cool stuff out there x.x also if someone can do a walkthrought with balaclava it will be awesome lol.This game reminds me of old times with the first splinter cell,every mission without balaclava except the last one,happens the same thing in blacklist.

Weagles_Fan
07-08-2014, 01:34 AM
^I think there's only been 1 person to try, and nothing came of that.

SCCUser1978
07-08-2014, 02:31 AM
Why do those particular levels not work with the balaclava mod? Is it your PC, your game, or the mod that is causing this to happen? I don't have the PC version, so I have no idea about anything that could be causing it.


It happens with all of the PC's.
I think it's the coding in the game.
I'm just happy that the balaclava works with 10 "Official" SP missions.
The rest of the BL levels work great with the balaclava