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r3tsa
09-24-2012, 04:15 PM
First will be about Shadow image, two things concerns me: the ability to quick attack and possibility to copy all of target creatures abilities, those two combined makes this card gamebreaking in certain situation, Let's have for example Chaos Imp(1/0/1 shooter) on the field, you copy it(of course you must discard one card) and you can instantly remove the original one and unique ability is all yours, profit. Second example would be with Doom Bringer you copy and dumb it on retaliation damage and kill all enemy creatures with 4 resources and one card, thats ridiculous. Lastly cloning the Atropos, although it is high resource combo I do think the possible flooding of the field with high level mobs is too much.
Funny thing is that it clones the ability of Chaos Imp(at least in my games), i don't know how it works with Doom Bringer, I heard it clones ability of Atropos(didn't see that myself) and also heard that doesn't work on Banshee(didn't saw this one too). The card effect seems inconsistent, but yeah thats not the first card with this kind of issue. I had my doubts about it since the closed beta.

Second would be Puppet Master, i just have one doubt about it: it should be possible to dispell and again i have my doubts about it since open beta, but with this one i don't have objections about its ability stealing, due to the cost. So for the card to be possible to dispell it must be an enchantment.

Third matter would be dispell card: i find it horribly underused, but i think it should be staple for primal magic just the same way firebolt is for fire magic. There are few ways to make it more useful: ability to dispell Shadow Image/Puppet Master(or both) or at least alternate effect of doing 2 damage to magical creatures.

The last thing(if i didn't forget anything) would be ability of Siegfried, i don't think it is OP in general, but i don't know if it should apply to neutral creature such as a Dark Assassin. Nowadays he has got 4/0/2 stats(with ability mentioned above 4/0/3) in closed beta it had basic 4/0/3(buffed 4/0/4). Well generally the nerf with the release of open beta allowed more decks to handle the DA cost/card(most time both) effective, the buff resets the situation, so none level 1-2 creature can kill it(except for DA himself), the one possible card effective/cost effective ability would be sunburst but not all are playing haven and mass grave although this one is not card effective. (I'm skipping hero abilities for example Mother Namtaru). Well with just pure +1 buff it kinda wouldn't be much of an issue, but there goes also Haven guards and healing abilities, stacking of those elements makes me think that there is just to much advantage from one card. Sure there are spells but hey, the number of one card copies per deck was reduced down to four, so the probability for having proper card is less, actually for fire magic u need two firebolts, that's not card effective and with Acamas for example you need health 3 mob with Sacrifical Altar, that's not even cost effective.

I forgot about Stronghold; while the enrage nerf was necessary I think it was too much, the latter buff at the end of closed beta was rolled back moreover with Pao Deathseeker's health nerf the combo with Sacrifical Altar has been weakened, so at this point Stronghold is as weak as never. Some decks are still viable: buffed Cyclops Brawler or Kelthor enrage deck but i don't think they are decent enough. I don't know how The Last Stand deck works out now, but it was definitely weakened too. I myself tried some fancy creature/fortune deck on Acamas, but even with the one turn damage being extremely potent with proper cards the window of opportunity is too narrow for this deck to be competive on higher levels, on side note i would add up that ability of Acamas is not too good and doesn't give such synergy as Kelthor's one .

PS: Card effectiveness is my mental leap for card advantage, so it shall be clear now.

PS2: I will also post something about general game mechanics later on, Stay tuned for the next wall of text. ^^

PS3: Aza i would be gratefull if you could add keywords to the title: Shadow Image, Puppet Master, Dispel Magic, Dark Assassin, Stronghold. I admit I forgot and can't ecit this myself. :(

Matrix.disc
09-24-2012, 04:48 PM
First of all, r3sta, thank you very much for your great input to the community forum!

Let me now address some of the issues you mentioned:

1. I LOVE the idea of Puppet Master and Shadow Image being actual ongoing effects that are dispellable! That doesn't nerf the cards too much but it gives more decks a proper counter to them.

2. I see how in the special cases you mentioned (with Chaos Imp and Doombringer) Shadow Image shines, but so far I feel that the card isn't such a great problem to deal with. It is efficient, but it has its limitations. The change to Ongoing effect should be enough to make it a little bit easier to deal with.

3. Dispel buff: Yes, Yes Yes! Why didn't I think of it? It's genial, it's very very clever and cute to have the alternative of dealing 2 dmg to Magic creatures. I would debate though, whether it should do 2 dmg to magical creatures, or rather 2 dmg to magic immune and magic resistant creatures. It might even need to be changed into a fortune type to give a greater accessibility to it.

4. I agree that Siegfried is a horror to deal with when you are playing a slight deck (does anybody know this term from MtG?) - cheap massive creatures deck. As much as I think that his ability to buff melee creatures is super strong, it doesn't feel extremely overpowered when applied to Heaven creatures. But the Assassin example is a huge deal. I agree, that Siegfried's ability should be limited to buff only Heaven creatures.

5. Oh, my favourite topic, the Stronghold.
I am playing a Kelthor based Stronghold deck and I think I am doing quite OK, but there is a feeling of great volatility depending on the hand I'm given. Several creatures are purely underwhelming and need an aggressive buff.
- Ranaar Mauler needs +1 attack to pose any threat and apply pressure early game.
- Jaguar Warrior needs either +1 attack or Enrage 1 ability to be a viable 3 lvl drop.
- there should be at least one Enrage 2 creature with cost lower than 6!
- Pao Deathseeker's nerf really hurt Sacrificial Altar and there should be some kind of soft replacement buff somewhere to help out
- Enrage ability after being struck with The Nerfhammer is a little bit underpowered - I suggested a change where after attack the creature would keep half of it's enrage counters, rounded down (in the same way as calculation works for magical damage against magic resistant creatures)

I hope that my input will be found valuable and that some buffs will land on Stronghold soon.

Le.Rancord
09-24-2012, 04:52 PM
Dispel is vers good, it doesnt need a buff. Of course the amount of targets are not that high, but in necro its quit good with shantiri, since u get more dispel,s if u need it or u can exchange for other spells. The more cards come, the better it gets. With stone shield or bell decks out of the way, atm its not needed in ure deck that often. Still dispelling weakness frozen ground or ice wall is quit good.

Stronghold decks hard to say, only few ppl play them. Guess jaguar warrior could need a buff. Otherwise i dont seem them that bad. Kats grande finale deck still works, with a bit more sfire spell aoe, but has still same problems (as long as so much inferno is played), it will often loose, due to fast decks to less stalls, and to the discards. But on the other hand, im pretty sure a spell deck with shaar will be good, if someone finds the right one.

Im sure pao and altar was never intnded.

Well about doombringer, why the hell u play out doombringer ei s full field? I can achieve the same effect with a soulreaver, I dont need shadow image for that. I find shadow image to be ok. Its usually only rly good vs inferno, and the images allways have 1 hp. About atropos and chaos imp, I havnt made my mind up yet.

Master of Puppet is a strong single target card. But u put 6 magic into it, wich means ure quit weak on the might side. I find this actually ok, I handled it so far and u need to give spell decks some kind of semi win option as well.

Darkness is agreed, one of the spell schools that really allow u to ignore might a bit, and set on spells. Wich I find quit good. I Played a darkness magic deck myself, and haven is a paion, since they usually play only 3 might and outdamage u badly. Inferno sometimes is just to fast for u or discards ure backup. Of course u also win quit alot, so I dont see it over the top.

r3tsa
09-24-2012, 05:22 PM
Well about doombringer, why the hell u play out doombringer ei s full field? I can achieve the same effect with a soulreaver, I dont need shadow image for that. I find shadow image to be ok. Its usually only rly good vs inferno, and the images allways have 1 hp. About atropos and chaos imp, I havnt made my mind up yet.



That was purely hypothetical situation, i don't even have Doombringer myself, but you might find yourself forced to play him sometimes, and aside from Soulreaver Shadow image works too and it's versatility was my main point, I don't think there is second such card.

Tarragon
09-24-2012, 05:37 PM
Ok, u have some realy good ideas here.

1. Shadow Image: People cry about Soul Reaver but how Shadow Image works at the moment its in the most situations even better. In my oppinion the main problem of the card is the quick attack the image has, so u can copy and kill a creature with one card.

2.Puppet Master: How Le.Rancord said, this card needs 6 magic and when u invest in magic to 6 u r pretty low in might, so this seems quite balanced but making it to an ongoing enchantment as a small nerf would be ok i think.

3. Dispell: With this card I think the same like Le:Rancors again, it is good as it is. In the future, when some more enchantments are released and played it will become more viable by itself.

4. Stronghold/Enrage: I play an enrage deck myself and I think the main problem is not that the ability is too weak. The problem with enrage is that there are too less creatures with this ability and too less cheap stronghold creatures for sacrificing into enrage. Furthermore we need more sacc outlets to enable enrage when we want and not being depandent to killings from the oponent.

Hydroopl
09-24-2012, 05:52 PM
Dispel is vers good, it doesnt need a buff. Of course the amount of targets are not that high, but in necro its quit good with shantiri, since u get more dispel,s if u need it or u can exchange for other spells. The more cards come, the better it gets. With stone shield or bell decks out of the way, atm its not needed in ure deck that often. Still dispelling weakness frozen ground or ice wall is quit good.

Well about doombringer, why the hell u play out doombringer ei s full field? I can achieve the same effect with a soulreaver, I dont need shadow image for that. I find shadow image to be ok. Its usually only rly good vs inferno, and the images allways have 1 hp. About atropos and chaos imp, I havnt made my mind up yet.

Master of Puppet is a strong single target card. But u put 6 magic into it, wich means ure quit weak on the might side. I find this actually ok, I handled it so far and u need to give spell decks some kind of semi win option as well.

Darkness is agreed, one of the spell schools that really allow u to ignore might a bit, and set on spells. Wich I find quit good. I Played a darkness magic deck myself, and haven is a paion, since they usually play only 3 might and outdamage u badly. Inferno sometimes is just to fast for u or discards ure backup. Of course u also win quit alot, so I dont see it over the top.
Combine it with namastru and you can't actually do much. She can discard some creatures to kill yours and if still there are creatures, she can make them useles because of curse that decreases damage and retaliation by 2. Dark magic is probably the most versatile from all - you have dispells, curses, insta killers, something that can capture your 6 might card. Still there is also curse of netherworld. Inferno can do something against it because of deck devastation, but others? 4 maximum dispells (8 if you have 2 schools that have it) is not enough against it. Are other schools so effective that they can run the game by themselves? BTW Arcane ward probably can be dispelled, so no, it is not answer (4 cost)

Is doombringer ability doing magic damage? So you can survive it by resistance or martyr/celestial armor?

Chompman
09-24-2012, 06:57 PM
The last thing(if i didn't forget anything) would be ability of Siegfried, i don't think it is OP in general, but i don't know if it should apply to neutral creature such as a Dark Assassin.

The problem is he has a very limited range of magic schools that most players will need to use neutral creatures because of the lack of melee creatures he can buff and it will be even weaker if you remove a large part of those he can buff.

r3tsa
09-24-2012, 06:58 PM
4. Stronghold/Enrage: I play an enrage deck myself and I think the main problem is not that the ability is too weak. The problem with enrage is that there are too less creatures with this ability and too less cheap stronghold creatures for sacrificing into enrage. Furthermore we need more sacc outlets to enable enrage when we want and not being depandent to killings from the oponent.



Yea i forgot it myself, at some point i wrote(i don't remember on which table polish or english) that there is no point in making enrage build(by the time that was definitely exaggerated) with current number of creatures with enrage ability, so basically the best option for long term balance is adding more cards, but that doesn't solves the matter at hand.


The problem is he has a very limited range of magic schools that most players will need to use neutral creatures because of the lack of melee creatures he can buff and it will be even weaker if you remove a large part of those he can buff.

Same goes for Xorm, but if u really think about it so badly, then there is just simple solution: make Dark Assassin attack some kind of new type not associated with anything. Well that would made DA penetrate melee guards but it's definitely possible to rework abilities so it would only not affect Dark Assasin.

Le.Rancord
09-24-2012, 07:06 PM
Play manastorm if spells causing u problems.

Hydroopl
09-24-2012, 07:10 PM
Play manastorm if spells causing u problems.
Somehow I feel in most situations it couldn't help at all, moreover it works against you.

Le.Rancord
09-24-2012, 07:21 PM
Im not plaIng a spell deck. So i doubt it really works against me. Spelss are expensive, denying a round means probably killing the hero

Hydroopl
09-24-2012, 09:55 PM
Im not plaIng a spell deck. So i doubt it really works against me. Spelss are expensive, denying a round means probably killing the hero
I play balanced deck, because there is no other viable option for me (not too much cards atm and most for late game). Still that game looked like this "discard, discard, soul reaver, soul reaver x 2, curse -2 to attack, 2 creatures on table on steroids called "icy weapon". Would that control be possible with other hero or without dark? I doubt that. Atleast doing this on other schools would be real waste of spell potential (not used to maximum, but to about 50% of their effectivnes)

Le.Rancord
09-24-2012, 10:04 PM
Play against a shaar comtrol deck, then u will cry. :)

Earth allows u to play stone shield and stall quit long. Also armageddon cleary whole field, darkness cant do that. Just send in paos with inner fire if he just relies on spells :)

Hydroopl
09-24-2012, 10:23 PM
Play against a shaar comtrol deck, then u will cry. :)

Earth allows u to play stone shield and stall quit long. Also armageddon cleary whole field, darkness cant do that. Just send in paos with inner fire if he just relies on spells :)
Or spam prison and magic ressi. Gotta catch them all

Dknight1991
09-24-2012, 10:25 PM
I would say Inferno has 2 broken cards too, House of Madness basically means skip this turn unless you play a big monster or take the disadvantage and the spell that discards for only 2 resources basically means say goodbye to the best card in your hand and your opponent gets to see your hand to boot.

r3tsa
09-25-2012, 01:50 AM
@UP
I disagree, early game House of madness/Twist of fate is huge investment, inferno can't afford to lose board control or at least ability to recover it by smart play. In the late game on the other hand it doesn't have so much impact if you were even and that pushed advantage away from you, then it means you messed up earlier.

Matrix.disc
09-25-2012, 08:43 AM
As r3sta mentioned, playing House of Madness early game is a huge trade off - you could have played a creature that increased the pressure and board control you have. You are allowing your opponent to regain control over the board and catch a breath at a cost of (usually) one additional card!

I know that not everybody has played many other card games, or even one (like MtG) on a higher level, but it seems people don't really understand the concepts of pressure, board control, aggro/control decks. And most of all the idea of opportunity cost seems very, very elusive to most. So what that there is an uber card that could make your opponent discard 1, or 2, or even 4 additional cards! Player with IQ level of a moderately intelligent chimpanzee will deal with it properly and I think that most times it will be a great trade off for him/her! My aggressive opponent playing Inferno lets me trade one card that I might have been using somewhere in future for much less pressure early game? Hell yeah, I will take that deal every day!

There is a deep need of more and more players understanding more of the strategic aspect of the game. Then we'll have a really cool environment with interesting decks to play with. But for now, it's just blunt Inferno for the lower levels and a thin layer of other decks in hands of skilled people on top.

manytrees2
09-25-2012, 04:37 PM
As i play an inferno magic deck at the moment some thoughts from my side:

1) Puppet Master: At the moment its a very strong magic spell as it should be for a uniq T6 card. BUT there is a hard counter that trades off better then 1:1 ... bridge and town portal. At least the bridge can be played in every deck. If you make this spell dispellable it would be totally useless.

2) Shadow Image: Should not copy special abilities that read something like "when card enters the game", as the card is allready in the game ^^. As the card is very strong for its 4 mana costs and it is easily counterd by a simple firebolt i think it would be ok to be dispellable.

3) Dispell: Make it aditionally to a spellshield (for a creature) for ONE round. Would be a nice defense spell. A similar spell for meele dmg would also be nice :)

Le.Rancord
09-25-2012, 08:29 PM
Lol really how can everyone agree to give an all-a-round dispell spell a 2nd abillity? :p About enter play abillity, u create a copy of something, and the copy enters play right now.

The thing matrix said is very important overall. In tcg u will allways have a trade off. Not putting dispel allows me to focus more on my strategy, but also I pay the price that I might not beat decks, cause U do not run dispel.

Now I tell u a trick in tcg. You add a card that is situational or not usefull at all. If your deck still works out of the special situation, u know u have 2-3 slots that u can fill with any card u want, cause ure deck will still work. Now considering adding dispell, atm there will be more situations, where it is useless than where u wanted to draw it. This can change along with the meta, and suddenly u wanna pack in dispel into any deeck u can.

zenithale
09-25-2012, 09:11 PM
I have always at least 1 dispell in all my Decks with Prime Magic. It's probably my favorite spell in DoC, and, if I cannot use it sometime, I discard it with the Day of Luck to get something else.

r3tsa
09-25-2012, 09:52 PM
Well it should be like this:

Player 1: Haha, now I will finish you!
Player 1: *Plays a spell card*
Player 2: *Plays dispell*
Player 1: *You mad?! **** you!*
Player 1: *Leaves the game*

DarkBeast13
09-25-2012, 11:51 PM
I wish PURGE ^ could do that.

Dayveet
09-26-2012, 12:04 AM
****... inferno is way overpowered:/

Dknight1991
09-26-2012, 05:20 PM
@UP
I disagree, early game House of madness/Twist of fate is huge investment, inferno can't afford to lose board control or at least ability to recover it by smart play. In the late game on the other hand it doesn't have so much impact if you were even and that pushed advantage away from you, then it means you messed up earlier.
I didn't say early i meant mid to late game, when you might have a few low resource monsters or spells, but you get shutdown because it doesn't inflict too much hurt for the price of 1 card and with a balanced deck you always want more low resource monsters so you won't get stuck early


As r3sta mentioned, playing House of Madness early game is a huge trade off - you could have played a creature that increased the pressure and board control you have. You are allowing your opponent to regain control over the board and catch a breath at a cost of (usually) one additional card!

There is a deep need of more and more players understanding more of the strategic aspect of the game. Then we'll have a really cool environment with interesting decks to play with. But for now, it's just blunt Inferno for the lower levels and a thin layer of other decks in hands of skilled people on top.

As with the other quote I NEVER said anything about early game. I know quite much of card games having played Yu-Gi-Oh since the beginning and made me learn alot about both Card and Tactical advantage, both were talked about in my first post, Hous of Madness gives you card advantage as long as your opponent plays 2 or more cards and even if your opponent plays only 1 card it still evens out, which is a reasonable assumption in the mid to late game and the other card which neither of you spoke of gives far too much tactical advantage by allowing not only to see the hand but also enable you to send the card which nets the most advantage to the grave.

DarkBeast13
09-26-2012, 06:01 PM
\and the other card which neither of you spoke of gives far too much tactical advantage by allowing not only to see the hand but also enable you to send the card which nets the most advantage to the grave.

Yep, I hate that card. While by its own its not what you can say is gamebreaking, it kinda does too much for its price - scouting and removing a card, that in your opinion can change something.

Le.Rancord
09-26-2012, 10:12 PM
Yep, I hate that card. While by its own its not what you can say is gamebreaking, it kinda does too much for its price - scouting and removing a card, that in your opinion can change something.

To much? Its just fine, and because u can only play cards in ure turn, the information is not that all important. U usually now what awaits u anyway. Ok u see no fireball now i place everything, he top decks 2 cards and voila :)

DarkBeast13
09-27-2012, 07:04 AM
To much? Its just fine, and because u can only play cards in ure turn, the information is not that all important. U usually now what awaits u anyway. Ok u see no fireball now i place everything, he top decks 2 cards and voila :)

Not really, if opponent has 6 mana, doesn't mean he has armageddon yet you can try to guess. Or it can always be something else. It sure is important, discarding those cards and checking if he has something else like that.

Le.Rancord
09-27-2012, 07:45 AM
On the other hand u might want to draw a uni from the top, instead of a twist, because this card dies nothing to the board

DarkBeast13
09-27-2012, 07:52 AM
Yet it prevents sad outcomes for just 2 gold. And knowing what cards he has is still very important. Yes theres still 1-2 new top cards after check, but that is random that you can't do anything about like you can't change your bad starting cards except to leave and make a draw... But when demon checks if I have no insta kills, he easily can put on not very dangerous rows his strong creatures. Chance of getting one of those instants isn't that high in your turn.

Dknight1991
09-27-2012, 11:17 AM
Too much? Its just fine, and because you can only play cards in your turn, the information is not that all important. You usually now what awaits you anyway. Ok you see no fireball now i place everything, he top decks 2 cards and voila :)

Yes it is too much, in a resource based game you can only have so much good cards because you don't have 6 resource from the start. Also the information is very important, If you play this card and see your opponent has a lot of low resource monsters you might save your Armageddon, Fireball or Firestorm.

Le.Rancord
09-27-2012, 11:18 AM
Spcial situation it can be very good. Most of the time its nota superstrong card. (tbh I never played with it but against it and I would play it maybee in kal-azar control, but I guess even there Id skip it for tighter decks. I just like cards that help me towards my goal, and tof is definatly not one of those. Its kinda good if i go 2nd can play immediatly and stop enemy curve,when I play a slow control deck. If u dont playing an ally is allways better. And against control I find chaos riftto be waymore ffective later. Especially u can replace it, if enemy allrdy has empty hand.

You can gladly all pack this card and play it vs me, Im totally fine if you waste your deckspace on medicore cards.