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DarkBeast13
09-23-2012, 11:36 AM
As an Undead player I want to throw some cards, that are in my opinion need a rework/buff. Its not a whining , just opinion on cards that I feel have no place in a deck or are just weaker to some other cards.

- Blizzard. In tooltip you can see, that if possible, it will enchant adjacent creatures. When I read it first time, I thought that if you put this spell on a creature, it will stay on him and next turn will copy it self on a nearby creature. But when I used it for the first time, I was so disappointed that it nor stays on the same creature till it dies, but also does not jump on other ones if target has 3- HP and dies because of spell. To deal same damage as "Lightning bolt" the spell that deals 6 instant damage, but costs one more gold, you need 2 enemy turns and for the targeted creature to have 3+ hp and to have somebody near it and of course not one of your own creatures. Theres too many IFs for a DoT spell that in most scenarios doesn't deal 6+ damage and is rare.

-Agony. 2 DoT damage for 2 cost. I find it weaker than firebolt. Costs 2 times more, requires enemy to move/can be removed. So its better than firebolt only when enemy creature moved for the second time, if he moved that is and didn't work as a meat shield.

-Ravenous Ghoul. Im my opinion most 3 gold creatures can defeat it 1 on 1 and I wouldn't say, that he is a better meat shield than a plague zombie or vampire knight. First one trades 2 regen for 1 hp and 1 retaliation + 1 infest for offensive and 2nd one has same 2 regen ( basically ) and lost 1 retaliation for 1 hp and immunity to retaliation.

And I will add 1 card that I think works too well against undead. I don't remember its name, it puts every air creature from play, back in to hand for 2 gold. Undeads have too much air and this card is a good game winner against them.

Hydroopl
09-23-2012, 11:57 AM
As an Undead player I want to throw some cards, that are in my opinion need a rework/buff. Its not a whining , just opinion on cards that I feel have no place in a deck or are just weaker to some other cards.

-Agony. 2 DoT damage for 2 cost. I find it weaker than firebolt. Costs 2 times more, requires enemy to move/can be removed. So its better than firebolt only when enemy creature moved for the second time, if he moved that is and didn't work as a meat shield.

-Ravenous Ghoul. Im my opinion most 3 gold creatures can defeat it 1 on 1 and I wouldn't say, that he is a better meat shield than a plague zombie or vampire knight. First one trades 2 regen for 1 hp and 1 retaliation + 1 infest for offensive and 2nd one has same 2 regen ( basically ) and lost 1 retaliation for 1 hp and immunity to retaliation.

And I will add 1 card that I think works too well against undead. I don't remember its name, it puts every air creature from play back in to hand for 2 gold. Undeads have too much air and this card is a good game winner against them.
Agony works on enemy that also attacks, just look at it as addition to your retaliation (especially on inferno units that don't have too much health)

Ravenous ghoul - yeah there are still more viable options

About that card, it is probably "Rage of father sky", still if something works well against one faction, doesn't it mean it is op. Holy Praetorians are great against inferno and vs infection units when it is terrible against flyers and magic which necro has really much of them. I can find more op cards in necro that works against every factions and even are gamebreakers

Le.Rancord
09-23-2012, 12:18 PM
He means grounded. Well u probably lost to the cyclops deck then. :) just put in enough ground creatures as well. :)

DarkBeast13
09-23-2012, 12:28 PM
Agony works on enemy that also attacks, just look at it as addition to your retaliation (especially on inferno units that don't have too much health)

Ravenous ghoul - yeah there are still more viable options

About that card, it is probably "Rage of father sky", still if something works well against one faction, doesn't it mean it is op. Holy Praetorians are great against inferno and vs infection units when it is terrible against flyers and magic which necro has really much of them. I can find more op cards in necro that works against every factions and even are gamebreakers

When I said move, I meant anything active that card does, be it attack or move. Yet I would trade Agony for spell, that would cost 2 gold and deal 3 instant damage. Again as i said against agony -creature can still work as a meat shield, creature still can do his last hit if he has 2 or less hp, you can still dispel it. And against creature with a lot of hp I'd better use Death Seal. I don't know a situation, where it can be better than an instant spell with lets say that 3 damage or Death Seal.

Those gamebreaking cards probably will cost much more, but a 2 gold card that is always very cost effective against undead. Holy Preatorian works fine against undeads with low damage and infest too, its still a creature unit and there are tons of way to remove him. So he isn't a special only inferno counter. And please show me those UBER undead spell cards, because I find Dark/Water school spells meh and have to rely much more on my creatures, that if I lose, I lose the game.


He means grounded. Well u probably lost to the cyclops deck then. http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20120411.419/images/smilies/smile.png just put in enough ground creatures as well. http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20120411.419/images/smilies/smile.png

Problem is, there are not that many strong ground creatures or am I supposed to spam plague zombie/lich in every row. That won't work well and any air ill put will be countered with cheap card...

Le.Rancord
09-23-2012, 12:52 PM
Ice Spikes/Ice Wall/Geysir/Tsunami/Soul Reaver/Master of Puppet, alot of strong spells.

After all Soulreaver-->Lightning Bolt

The question is when u absolutly need to block every row, then u allrdy took to much damage. Not strong ground creautres? LOL

2 Drop: Neophyte Lich
3 Drop: Plague Zombie
4 Drop: Fate Spinner, Archlich
5 Drop: Atropos
6 Drop: Banshee / Fate Weaver

Enough to get. And Grounded you can play around a bit.

Hydroopl
09-23-2012, 12:58 PM
When I said move, I meant anything active that card does, be it attack or move. Yet I would trade Agony for spell, that would cost 2 gold and deal 3 instant damage. Again as i said against agony -creature can still work as a meat shield, creature still can do his last hit if he has 2 or less hp, you can still dispel it. And against creature with a lot of hp I'd better use Death Seal. I don't know a situation, where it can be better than an instant spell with lets say that 3 damage or Death Seal.

Those gamebreaking cards probably will cost much more, but a 2 gold card that is always very cost effective against undead. Holy Preatorian works fine against undeads with low damage and infest too, its still a creature unit and there are tons of way to remove him. So he isn't a special only inferno counter. And please show me those UBER undead spell cards, because I find Dark/Water school spells meh and have to rely much more on my creatures, that if I lose, I lose the game.

I always like argument "it can be dispelled" which is valid, but if card is really expensive or has great effect like "for whom bells toll". In that way I can say "Bless sucks, it can be dispelled". There are much better things that I can dispell (not to mention that if I remember Fortress hasn't any school to use dispells). You are using it in defensive way, not offensive. So you don't need to put it on "meat shield" but at range units which are (expect lilim) fragile. I'm trying to say it is not completely useles card, but you can't have always in hand death seal or soulreaver

Curse of Netherworld, so you can finish off enemy creatures, card that ressurects all lost from last turn. Water has tsunami, geyser, icy weapon, slow, refreshing springs. Dark can destroy every unit and their hp doesn't matter - soulreaver, master of puppets, shadow image, some nasty curses. Still if you don't like it, change to Nergal.

DarkBeast13
09-23-2012, 01:09 PM
I always like argument "it can be dispelled" which is valid, but if card is really expensive or has great effect like "for whom bells toll". In that way I can say "Bless sucks, it can be dispelled". There are much better things that I can dispell (not to mention that if I remember Fortress hasn't any school to use dispells). You are using it in defensive way, not offensive. So you don't need to put it on "meat shield" but at range units which are (expect lilim) fragile. I'm trying to say it is not completely useles card, but you can't have always in hand death seal or soulreaver

Curse of Netherworld, so you can finish off enemy creatures, card that ressurects all lost from last turn. Water has tsunami, geyser, icy weapon, slow, refreshing springs. Dark can destroy every unit and their hp doesn't matter - soulreaver, master of puppets, shadow image, some nasty curses. Still if you don't like it, change to Nergal.

I never said that dispel is a 100% counter, its just 1 of those cons. And comparing Bless with Agony dispeling was a very bad example. Bless works in your first turn, so you secure that 2 damage you do in your first turn, yet Agony will work on enemy heroes turn and can be dispeled before creature moves. Curse of Netherworld was never gamebreaking for me, too expensive for 3 damage all and 3 heal all ( heal is not needed sometimes )... And I already pointed out cards that I think are weak in my first post, I dunno why you bring other cards... I never said that they are as weak, but I do find those 2 school not as versalite.

Hydroopl
09-23-2012, 01:12 PM
I never said that dispel is a 100% counter, its just 1 of those cons. And comparing Bless with Agony dispeling was a very bad example. Bless works in your first turn, so you secure that 2 damage you do in your first turn, yet Agony will work on enemy heroes turn and can be dispeled before creature moves.
Yeah it is, but as I said agony is defensive spell and that is how it should be used - to prevent enemy from attacking, or just give you a free breath. Also you can use it to secure enemy units kill. Still my example was that, you have dispell from "purge" and inferno from dispell and purge. If enemy even will disspel agony, situation is win=win, he has useless creature that won't attack or opponent will lose his dispell

DarkBeast13
09-23-2012, 01:32 PM
Ice Spikes/Ice Wall/Geysir/Tsunami/Soul Reaver/Master of Puppet, alot of strong spells.

After all Soulreaver-->Lightning Bolt

The question is when u absolutly need to block every row, then u allrdy took to much damage. Not strong ground creautres? LOL

2 Drop: Neophyte Lich
3 Drop: Plague Zombie
4 Drop: Fate Spinner, Archlich
5 Drop: Atropos
6 Drop: Banshee / Fate Weaver

Enough to get. And Grounded you can play around a bit.


So I have to play only with these creatures and throw half of my deck ( that is air ) away because of cheap, brainless card that was made ? Not even pointing that most of those late cards are rare and Atropos/Banshee can only be one in play. Other than that not many strong late game cards as I said that are ground.


Yeah it is, but as I said agony is defensive spell and that is how it should be used - to prevent enemy from attacking, or just give you a free breath. Also you can use it to secure enemy units kill. Still my example was that, you have dispell from "purge" and inferno from dispell and purge. If enemy even will disspel agony, situation is win=win, he has useless creature that won't attack or opponent will lose his dispell

My purge can only dispel enemy buffs, which I find useless, because most of the time there are no buffs that last till my turn that I can dispel. Agony doesn't work fine, you put it on a creature that still can attack and will do damage if need. Should I bother throwing 100 scenarios comparing Agony with a spell, that would have 3 instant spell damage for the same 2 cost. In most cases instant spell would win.

Le.Rancord
09-23-2012, 01:56 PM
U can play 4 banshees. And I mentioned all strong cards. So what are u playing then? If you play all flyers in your deck its your own fault. Besides there is one deck that plays grounded, and that deck isnt to consistent.

DarkBeast13
09-23-2012, 02:01 PM
How about we create a card " Throw them back to hell " that for 2 cost removes every demon creature. And then I will tell you, use neutral cards, there are enough of those to play with. You are one of those people that don't really understand what balance is. If you create a card with 10 attack 1 hp and 1 cost, means that its balanced because there are 1001 ways to destroy it ? If im supposed to not use my air creatures, its not counted as coutner to that card, its called limiting the deck you can play. Which are 2 different things. I don't know why cards that don't have any way to counter should exist. And I will repeat, limiting isnt really a counter, It just a proof of a bad design. Im sure that there are other cards like this one, just I don't have all factions etc to point them all out.

Le.Rancord
09-23-2012, 02:15 PM
I play necro and am constantly top3. So how can I do that? :)

Just be prepared, and so few decks with that card.

DarkBeast13
09-23-2012, 02:35 PM
I play necro and am constantly top3. So how can I do that? :)

Just be prepared, and so few decks with that card.

I guess arguments ended there. So in the end I guess I won, that such cards should be twisted.

Le.Rancord
09-23-2012, 02:43 PM
Well in the end there are enough strong non flying creatures. If you dont want to use them fine, but then dont complain.

DarkBeast13
09-23-2012, 03:00 PM
Well in the end there are enough strong non flying creatures. If you dont want to use them fine, but then dont complain.

Why shouldn't I ? Not an argument of not using something because something else is broken.

Le.Rancord
09-23-2012, 03:09 PM
Its situational. If you pack in grounded there are high chances, that the card is absolutly useless, if you meet for example inferno. There is also a chance, that you meet a necro deck, wich doesnt pack all flyers.

And once every 50 games they meet you and crush you because you want to play all flyers.

DarkBeast13
09-23-2012, 03:12 PM
I never said all air, but countering even one which cost 5 is already strong, but 2 or 3 air is broken. Why there is no such thing for ground instead, I'd gladly pay 2-4 gold to always send all my enemy ground units back in his hand and tell him to not use those. And because its situational it should be remade. Concept of card that works against 1 faction and doesn't work against other is bad on its own. Im sorry for you if you don't understand that. And don't throw again holy praetorian examples. Its a creature, so it can do some job against no matter what.

Le.Rancord
09-23-2012, 03:27 PM
I dont see why holy preatorian should be part of this discussion, since he is haven. Color Horsers exist in every TCG game.

After all, and this is what is really sad, you dont want to improve ureself against cards like this. You just want something to get nerfed, so you dont have to do any work to fight against that. I woudlnt mind a cost increase to 3, but your first intention should be to handle that card. Because then you can win right away against it, and dont have to wait for a patch.

I completly dont care about this card, cause I dont play it nor will I, my goal here is to show you where ure thoughts are flawed and how you can ain against it, not to protect it (as said I play necro myself). Its gonna be allways something that is hard to handle, and you should be calm and focus on a solution or ask for a solution. *You know at start I asked how can I beat Inferno with necro, cause I lost most games to it. :) I used the advice to improve and same you should do.

To move on to the other cards u mentioned:
- Agony is ok, not to strong and limited but I dont see any reason to alter it.
- Blizzard indeed seems weak, maybee redoce magic requirements but leave cost.
- Ravenous ghoul is not that bad, but due to the mass of inferno players, he is often not as usefull.

DarkBeast13
09-23-2012, 04:04 PM
I rarely see it my self, so I don't have that big of an issue, still I created this topic to show my opinion on a few cards, that are in my opinion should be reworked/remade. That is all.

Hydroopl
09-23-2012, 05:10 PM
I never said all air, but countering even one which cost 5 is already strong, but 2 or 3 air is broken. Why there is no such thing for ground instead, I'd gladly pay 2-4 gold to always send all my enemy ground units back in his hand and tell him to not use those. And because its situational it should be remade. Concept of card that works against 1 faction and doesn't work against other is bad on its own. Im sorry for you if you don't understand that. And don't throw again holy praetorian examples. Its a creature, so it can do some job against no matter what.
Actually it is pretty good against heavy flyer haven, too. And I have played this deck in closed beta - really great offensive abilities and not so much people using counters for it. Still I use fog veil, that blocks from attacking ranged and flyers because many people play necro now, even if this card is really situational I have never seen before flyers deck either.

BoromiRofGeo
09-23-2012, 08:48 PM
the discussion about spell grounded is in my opinion not needed in the first place.
it is good spell. it has many tactical uses, requires a lot of consideration to not to waste it in the first five rounds.
you're complaining cuz your vampires and ghosts get grounded? really?
im hum. i have 3 types of griffins, 1 seraphim, 1 wind elemental, 2 type of glory ( radiant/blazing) and seraphim.
all.
each.
one.
of.
them.
F.L.Y.E.R.S.
and im not even complaining. so i think you press to much pressure on that single card.
everybody hates something, I too hate soulreaver for example.
water/dark is not really of that damaging schools, if you want dmg spells, change to Negral. he has fire, but does not have dark magic.
ps. and btw, you have geyser.