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View Full Version : Please increase Juggernauts and Ravagers Use cost.



tenimurau
09-18-2012, 08:00 AM
I have started to meet lot of Infernal players that just mostly flood the floor with ravagers, juggernauts, succubi and Lilims.
And quite honestly I can't stop it, Ravager and Juggernaut both posess exeptional attack power for their cost class along with retaliation / health ratio that is painfull to watch.

If you do not already have defence in lane with them its unlikely anything that you toss will last against them untill you can call lv 5 or higher creatures, specially if opponent has succubi or lilim behind them.

Spamming low level units or spells against infernal with the best aoe spell there is is kinda pointless as well incase someone makes that argument.


So I kindly suggest this change.


Juggernaut hp 4->3
Ravager cost 4 ->5


Edit :

Forgot to mention tainted orc likely should also nerfed with this method.
changed suggestion bit based on what others wrote.

Thanks.

pod11
09-18-2012, 10:01 AM
its really more of rarity issue then its stats.
Inferno has to ogood commons

If is very important balance issure in a game that is about collecting cards, and when your gold income highly depends on performance without those rare cards.

r3tsa
09-18-2012, 11:15 AM
No can do sir, you virtually want to make this faction unplayable with this cost nerfs.

Aza404
09-18-2012, 03:12 PM
Hi,

I've passed on the info to the devs that Inferno are a bit too strong right now (not invincible, just a bit too effective).

Best,
Aza

Le.Rancord
09-18-2012, 03:31 PM
Well if jugger ends up with 3 hp id be more than happy. Lol, happy pao chao :)

MD78
09-18-2012, 04:26 PM
Inferno isn't overpowered at all. the cards are mostly about damage but pretty vulnerable and later on easy to counter!


I have started to meet lot of Infernal players that just mostly flood the floor with ravagers, juggernauts, succubi and Lilims.

But Inferno can be very difficult to play in late games, because then the deck starts to be underpowered compared to other factions. Without proper spells or events in your deck, you're done.

Gloignar
09-18-2012, 04:49 PM
Indeed, inferno is the hard hitting rush faction, but if you manage to survive the early/mid game and drag it into the late game you will probably win from any inferno, other then Lilim all units are very fragile, and the problem is that the meatshields (lilims) are shooters, so they stay in the back and can't absorve hits for the hard hitters (Juganauts/Ravagers).

I think that, making Juganauts/Ravagers weaker in any way would really ruin inferno for good. Yes, they are very strong in the early game, but they are weak later on... and every faction has good ways of dealing with the juganauts/ravagers, so I think this is purely a learn to play issue....

Matrix.disc
09-18-2012, 05:18 PM
Hi,

I've passed on the info to the devs that Inferno are a bit too strong right now (not invincible, just a bit too effective).

Best,
Aza

Dear Aza, please do not "pass to devs" opinions like that just because there is some amount of people complaining hard about it. As it was mentioned in many other topics, Inferno isn't even "a bit too strong" - it's just really easily accessible to build a cheap deck that is moderately efficient with that faction. Necro and Heaven need much more top tier cards to work exceptionally well. It isn't a matter of Inferno balance, rather problem with cards accessibility!

Try ever playing Inferno vs a good Necro deck - they'll get down to 5 life while defending ferociously and then eat you alive with their superior creatures and card advantage.

@all people whining about inferno : I can't stand people not using their brains to figure our a way to deal with problems, but screaming OP!OP!OP! instead.

r3tsa
09-18-2012, 05:31 PM
Matrix.disc +1

Developers already overreacted with enrage nerf in closed beta, almost no one played it anymore.

tenimurau
09-18-2012, 06:56 PM
I am not complaining about inferno in general, I am complaining about those two spesific cards.

Did I say a word about armageddon, pit lords, house of maddness ect ? no I didn't, because they are fine in my book.

But those two cards should cost slightly more as they are, they are too good walls and hard to defeat if they get first turn to land, as well as real spell soack on early game, which in turn prevents you from having the resources to counter it.

Do explain me the logic how changing two cards COST, not summon requirements, nerfs the entire faction, I await interestingly on your debate about the subject.

Matrix.disc
09-18-2012, 07:17 PM
These two cards are crucial to apply pressure to opponents - since that's what inferno can revlove around. There are no good defensive creatures in inferno, so you have to rely on offensive creatures. These offensive options work so well, because they give little tome to you r opponent to respond properly to each one of them. If opponent gets one more turn, he can play higher tier creatures or even scramble up his magic to such a level where removing ravager immediately isn't any problem.

Aggression is the designed way for inferno to proceed - if you take away crucial cards that apply pressure and pose a great threat if not dealt with immediately (or next round) then Inferno needs defensive buff. But if such a buff would be applied - what would differentiate Inferno from Heaven?

Le.Rancord
09-18-2012, 07:17 PM
Matrix.disc +1

Developers already overreacted with enrage nerf in closed beta, almost no one played it anymore.

im having high sucess with enrage atm :)

Gloignar
09-18-2012, 07:18 PM
I am not complaining about inferno in general, I am complaining about those two spesific cards.

Did I say a word about armageddon, pit lords, house of maddness ect ? no I didn't, because they are fine in my book.

But those two cards should cost slightly more as they are, they are too good walls and hard to defeat if they get first turn to land, as well as real spell soack on early game, which in turn prevents you from having the resources to counter it.

Do explain me the logic how changing two cards COST, not summon requirements, nerfs the entire faction, I await interestingly on your debate about the subject.
The entire Inferno faction turns around high damage output and low resistance (with only Lilim being the exception), by raising the cost of the 2 main units of inferno you would totaly ruin them because they lose tempo...

Imagine if Juganaut was cost 4, this would mean that he would come out on the same turn as cards like:

2/1/7 - Fate Spider - Infect 2
3/1/6 - Archlich - Life Drain 2
4/3/7 - Tainted Orc
2/2/6 - Cyclops - Attacks Twice
3/1/8 - Lilim
2/2/6 - Imperial Griffin - Charge, Imune to Retaliation
3/2/5 - Angel - Regenate 2

See how ALL this units are stronger then Juganaut? (4/3/4)
Also, remember that he is a melee, which means you CAN'T hide him, so he is always exposed to being killed.

Now lets take a look at some other 3 cost allies to see how they look compared to him:

3/2/5 - Radiant Glory (flying, very good..)
2/1/5 - Sun Rider - imune to retaliation, charge
2/2/5 - Plague Zombie - Infect 1
2/0/5 - Vampire Knight - Imune to Retaliation
3/2/4 - Centaur Archer - Imune to Retaliation
2/0/4 - Dreamwalker - Enrage Imune to Retaliation

As you can see, most of them survive the attack of a Juganaut, except for the ones that are Shooters, but they can hide behind some other unit.. Also some of them are Flyers, making them more flexible. Also, they all have abilities, something that the Juganaut does not have....

Yes, Juganaut hits hard, but he has no abilities, is always in front, and dies to a lot of things...

I could do the same with Ravager... but I think I have proven my point here...

Again:

This is a learn to play issue, not a balance issue....

r3tsa
09-18-2012, 07:43 PM
im having high sucess with enrage atm :)

It's still viable, but i think nerf was too strong. To be honest i i'm dissapointed that stronghold deck must be bought and you can't start over with it. :( In my opinion it has got some serious potential, even after such hard nerf.

tenimurau
09-19-2012, 10:31 AM
I could do the same with Ravager... but I think I have proven my point here...

Again:

This is a learn to play issue, not a balance issue....

True, although I forgot to add about the tainted orc card that is also pain in the arse on earlier post, however its not really learn to play issue its more of " why the hell every inferno player always draws juggernauts and ravagers from the start and I never get any of my darn spells to counter em T.T" , giff luck buff tbh

captaingon
09-21-2012, 04:26 AM
For UD, cost 3 2/2/6 and 2/2/5, for human, 3/2/5 and 2/1/5.
You can play them in front of Juganaut

Ch3rryAC
09-21-2012, 06:59 AM
Inferno is easiest faction to start with, but as game goes on, and You get more cards to your collection other factions easily catch up to Inferno.

pumared
09-21-2012, 07:22 PM
+1 ^^

BoromiRofGeo
09-23-2012, 03:03 AM
actually, i myself wanted to open topic about this. out of 10 games vs inferno i loose about ~7~8. and almost everytime with high level inferno players. (im hum)
ravagers ravagers ravagaers jugger jugger jugger
FIREBALL FIREBALL
lilim lilim lilim
this is just not fair. really not fair.
even my 7 lvl units cant last against juggernaut+lilim, mind you, im not even mentioning ravagers...
jugger dmg 3+lilim dmg+3=6 + fireball. instant kill everything. with ravagers its just matter of when i ran out of my magic till he gets beating of me.
i find those 3 units really easy to use. they should be nerfed and what not.

Chompman
09-23-2012, 04:14 AM
The problem is if they are nerfed then all the other cards mentioned above will need to be nerfed also.

The issue is you let the person get that far ahead where they can get such a defense ready then you failed to stop it as there are many damage cards for each side or delay cards that can prevent it.

Stop trying to out rush them and slow them down or kill the nasty units when you can as that's how you can beat them while you get your defense ready.

speedhealer128
09-23-2012, 05:23 AM
well is hard win with necro if you dont have good spell and for that you need buy alot packs they should up rarity is too easy get 4 jugernaut and 4 lilium but now all have 4 just lose and try farm gold xD

Chompman
09-23-2012, 08:12 AM
I just wish ravagers were uncommon like they say they are for me as I have yet to get one with all the cards I have got so far.

At least I get some trading cards if that ever happens. ;)

tenimurau
09-23-2012, 01:26 PM
top trying to out rush them and slow them down or kill the nasty units when you can as that's how you can beat them while you get your defense ready

THis unfortunately sums the fight to draw luck, usually taking down a creature costs more or equal ammount of resources, for example if I use soul siphon to kill juggernaut or ravager, I just used arround half of the resources on game stage where they are nastiest, this means I can not put up creatures that are able to hold the lane in future turns or even on same turn if opponent has good formation, while they can add fairly cheap cost cards to back these cards up.

Its quite a known fact some people think that dark assassin for example is op card (2 cost 2 might, 4 attack -0 reta 2 life). Its not strong because it can not be taken out fast, its strong because its attack power is enough to one shot all under lv 3 creatures. And, unless killed with spells, it likely will haunt opponent untill lv 4 creatures ( if you are wise enough to pack him up with good ranged).

Same is true with Junggernauts and ravagers, they are fairly simple to kill, but the fact they got extremely high damage and to top that very strong retaliation damage, make it an upgright chore.

Also if you want to counter fast jugger-ravager + succu /lim combo with magic, you do not have the might values to actually use monsters strong enough to fight them, untill opponent has really strong formation.

Its why I suggested either weakening them slightly , perhaps reduce the retaliation, or take bit off the hp of Juggernauts and boost ravager cost slightly ( cost not might req), To prevent that early two slaps on table in one turn turnout, or least make them killable with lv 3 spells.

Le.Rancord
09-23-2012, 02:21 PM
It cannot kill a holy praetorian :) Dark Asassin it is.

Juggernaut is strong, but so is Radiant Glory.
Ravager is a tradeoff, since u might give up board control for pressure. I personally think Tainted Orc is the best 4 drop avilable.

r3tsa
09-23-2012, 04:27 PM
Well it is and with Altar you got possible 7 damage. :D

tenimurau
09-23-2012, 10:09 PM
Tainted Orc is the best 4 drop avilable.


Agreed, also, if you compare pure tanky lv 5' s you notice earth elemental barely matches it and its + 1 level.

Tainted orc lv 4 4-3-7
Earth elemental lv 5 3-4-7


Also posting for those that don't know about the cards I mean

Juggernaut : lv 3 4-3-4
Ravager : lv 4 6-4-4

The blazing glory mentioned is : Lv 3 3-2-5 ( one of the tankier lv 3's perhaps Lamasu lv 3 2-2-6 is tankiest though)

None of the cards above have any special abilities.

Also to earlier comments about Juggernauts and ravagers being core of inferno deck I agree, I use them lot myself. ( I got Full necro [ghost dragons, vampire lords ect] and inferno deck [abyssal lords, chaos sorc ect], midway stronghold one, exclude uniques)
Of course each faction does have their methods of countering them and the universally usefull staller spells work marvels on em ( ice wall, cyclone ect...)


Hmm now that I think about it I might have to start a new thread about these two spells at some point : Fire shield and Grounded ... but never mind =)

Thanks for comments guys, I am not saying my idea of nerfing the two cards is right, I am just bringing it out as I find it to be important.