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lothario-da-be
09-08-2012, 11:34 AM
I will start with saying I'am only 15 years old and I'am from Belgium where almost nobody under 30 and even older believes in God.Neither do I. But my teacher faith once said:I believe in a God that doesen't exist.It made me wonder if people from other relegions also think like that. people from Islam spend much more time in faith then Christians (at least in Belgium, my teacher also says that in Spain a lot people still believe in God.
In medieval ages almost everyone believed in God and the church who was corrupted used them to get power over the lower classes.Thats wath i learned from assassin's creed. I searched on internet and saw that it actualy truley was like that.Just like with the Greeks and Romans the people believed in the Gods and the priest used their "Ilusions"
to get power and become rich.
So assassin's creed made me thinking about a lot and i realised that faith (in my eyes!) is one big Illusion.That doesen't take away that people can put strenght out of their faith.
So assassin's creed changed the way i think about faith, especially the church.
Did it changed anything for you?

ps:sorry if this thread sounds like complete bull**** to you and, or my English is bad.

Locopells
09-08-2012, 11:46 AM
Faith is what you make it. Religion I'm more suspicious of, given how it's been used in the past, but both can inspire people to do equally good and bad things.

MT4K
09-08-2012, 11:50 AM
Not sure what to make of this thread... Discussions on religion can be extremely touchy subjects and as such have a tendency to get a little out of hand. I'll leave it for now, but don't be surprised if it gets closed in the future :p.

lothario-da-be
09-08-2012, 12:09 PM
Yes, i understand religion is a touchy thing, and if you compare it to the America vs England discussions this could indeed escalate.

lonewarrior30
09-08-2012, 12:10 PM
Religion was a tool to keep the masses in check and explain the unexplainable.
Nothing more..

LightRey
09-08-2012, 12:15 PM
Religion was a tool to keep the masses in check and explain the unexplainable.
Nothing more..
Oh yes, great idea. Start posting something judgemental about religions 2 posts after a mod warns everybody about not doing that. Great job.

Assassins don't seem to disagree with faith (as for one quite a few assassins have shown to actually practice it themselves, especially in Altaïr's time), but with religion. They disagree with other people telling you what to do, what to believe, what to think.

lothario-da-be
09-08-2012, 12:16 PM
But do you believe in God,Allach or any something else?

Lass4r
09-08-2012, 12:18 PM
Altair and Ezio may have taught you that religion is an illusion to keep the masses in check. Don't let yourself be so heavily influenced by a game. Religion was misused as a way of control, that doesn't mean it's all a lie.
So don't write off the existence of a God who only wants you well because a game told you to. Go looking for him and you might just find him. The worst you'll do is to base your beliefs on "nothing is true, everything is permitted". You need to figure these things out on your own.

LightRey
09-08-2012, 12:18 PM
But do you believe in God,Allach or any something else?
I do. Not in the conventional way though, but let us not digress from the subject itself. Our own beliefs are irrelevant to the discussion unless they are to be used as examples.

lonewarrior30
09-08-2012, 12:19 PM
Oh yes, great idea. Start posting something judgemental about religions 2 posts after a mod warns everybody about not doing that. Great job.

Assassins don't seem to disagree with faith (as for one quite a few assassins have shown to actually practice it themselves, especially in Altaïr's time), but with religion. They disagree with other people telling you what to do, what to believe, what to think.

I am just expressing my opinion I honestly do not hate on other religions and I dont want to start a fight with anyone

RatonhnhakeFan
09-08-2012, 12:20 PM
Altair and Ezio may have taught you that religion is an illusion to keep the masses in check. Don't let yourself be so heavily influenced by a game. Religion was misused as a way of control, that doesn't mean it's all a lie.
So don't write off the existence of a God who only wants you well because a game told you to. Go looking for him and you might just find him. The worst you'll do is to base your beliefs on "nothing is true, everything is permitted". You need to figure these things out on your own.
A game is as good influence/inspiration as anything else. It is of course silly to go to a downtown and start screaming "NOTHING'S TRUEEEE!!" at people walking by lol, but if it makes someone think/analyze/question, I don't see the problem. Games are art that can inspire, just as books/movies have been for decades and centuries

lothario-da-be
09-08-2012, 12:23 PM
Altair and Ezio may have taught you that religion is an illusion to keep the masses in check. Don't let yourself be so heavily influenced by a game. Religion was misused as a way of control, that doesn't mean it's all a lie.
So don't write off the existence of a God who only wants you well because a game told you to. Go looking for him and you might just find him. The worst you'll do is to base your beliefs on "nothing is true, everything is permitted". You need to figure these things out on your own.
Its not that i believe in "nothing is true everything is permitted or something from ac its just it showed that the church itself didn't realy believed in god. But used god the keep the people calm and get money from them etc...

Lass4r
09-08-2012, 12:24 PM
A game is as good influence/inspiration as anything else. It is of course silly to go to a downtown and start screaming "NOTHING'S TRUEEEE!!" at people walking by lol, but if it makes someone think/analyze/question, I don't see the problem. Games are art that can inspire, just as books/movies have been for decades and centuries
Yea, you are absolutely right, I agree that games is as good an art as any to express yourself in. And Ubi is going about it in a great way, the disclaimer before each AC game is evidence of it and it's good to know that AC is made by a multicultural team.
But Altair and Ezio are fantasy characters, so adopting their way of life to real life is dangerous at best.

lonewarrior30
09-08-2012, 12:29 PM
But do you believe in God,Allach or any something else?

me personally I am an agnostic

lothario-da-be
09-08-2012, 12:31 PM
me personally I am an agnostic
officialy i'am christian but i'am also more an agnostic.

Slayer_WTF
09-08-2012, 12:34 PM
Its not that i believe in "nothing is true everything is permitted or something from ac its just it showed that the church itself didn't realy believed in god. But used god the keep the people calm and get money from them etc...

No, only Rodrigo doing this. The church people believed in God.

RatonhnhakeFan
09-08-2012, 12:36 PM
me personally I am an agnostic
Agnostic/deist here. I just don't believe in organized religions and I have lots of issues with them, especially main Abrahamic branches

LightRey
09-08-2012, 12:41 PM
No, only Rodrigo doing this. The church people believed in God.
As far as we know at least.

Assassin_M
09-08-2012, 12:41 PM
This thread is interesting..

Indeed Assassins Creed can be viewed as VERY opposing to Religion, seeing is it removes God from the equation altogether, but it does not necessarily oppose faith. Each religion has Had corrupt leaders, like Rodrigo.. He was the Pope and in the game, actually also in real life, he was the most (no exaggeration) corrupt pope in the history of the Church.

Osama Bin Laden is also another example of Corrupt or misguided leader of a Misguided Islam, Im Muslim, but that never had any influence on me what so ever, neither has something like Rodrigo made me hate all Christians or view them as Corrupt. some of my Muslim and Christian friends are hostile towards the vibe of Assassins Creed towards Religion, but that is not how I view it, I mean I`v played God of War, Warcraft ..etc and those just remove "God" the one I believe in at least from the Universe. I look at Video Games as Stories, Interactive books. I enjoy these Stories, I become attached to the Characters and I can very openly speak, evaluate and dissect certain, "Atheistic" Plot elements in the game.

Religion to me is sort of like a Gamble, its faith.. I`ll just see in the end.. I can`t have assurance now, because obviously its Faith. Assassins Creed, however; has taught me to ask more questions, of my superiors, of my Creed, of My God, It made me try and find connections between Science and Religion, but did not necessarily change my whole view, not that there is anything wrong with that, I see no wrong in being influenced by a game, and I apologize for this, but using the "its just a game" excuse here is a bit silly..

Locopells
09-08-2012, 12:44 PM
Well said.

TheHumanTowel
09-08-2012, 12:50 PM
Assassin's Creed didn't change my opinions on God or whatever but it made me think about how the faith of people can be exploited by those in power. Like other people have said I don't think Assassin's Creed is hostile to the notion of faith but rather it draws attention to the dangers of completely blind faith. It encourages people to think for themselves or else they'll only become victims of corrupt leaders looking to exploit them.

WolfTemplar94
09-08-2012, 12:58 PM
We all have to remember though, just because events transpired a certain way in the games, it doesn't mean that's how it is in real life.

I hate to be the "It's just a game" guy, but it really is. It's a work of fiction.

De Filosoof
09-08-2012, 12:59 PM
I agree with you Lothario :).

I think faith in itself isn't bad at all, it can really help people out, especially when they had a messed-up life and can't share their pain with others (that's one of the main reasons why so many people in prison turn to god).
The word god can be interpreted in all kind of different ways. I see "god" as nature, with it's natural laws. Some other people see god as a man like figure with man made rules, i personally think this is a really really bad thing because natural laws are a fact and we can learn from them and try to understand them but man made laws are based on morals, ego and all that kind of stuff and are constantly changing, that's part of human progress/evolution.
So when people take a book like the bible literally, and believe that god created the world in 7 days and created mankind in his own image, stuff goes horribly wrong because many people don't believe in that one crucial natural element anymore called evolution/progress.
So many horrible thins get justified in the name of god, it's sick.

I know it's a pretty complex subject and i can't go into all the details so here's an interesting video about religion:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjHk9nKUNNs

It's a pretty controversial video on the web but it has some interesting information nonetheless :)

Here's the full documentary with Dutch subs so you can understand things better.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPR2pNDnkPs

Assassin_M
09-08-2012, 01:01 PM
Lets just avoid naming (Bible..etc) and Preaching.. Generalizing would be better as to avoid Controversy, because im really liking this thread..

De Filosoof
09-08-2012, 01:07 PM
Controversy isn't bad at all, it should be discussed but without attacking someone.

Assassin_M
09-08-2012, 01:09 PM
Controversy isn't bad at all, it should be discussed but without attacking someone.
There are certain types of Controversy. Religious Controversy isn't that well on the forums..So

Attacking someone can be argumentative. You might view something as normal, another would see it as a Personal Insult.. so to dodge any of that, lets just avoid what I said above..

De Filosoof
09-08-2012, 01:11 PM
There are certain types of Controversy. Religious Controversy isn't that well on the forums..So

Well, i think this subject could turn into a pretty interesting discussion IF everybody is willing to put his ego aside and listen to what everybody has to say without making fun of them. In that way even controversial things can easily be discussed.

Assassin_M
09-08-2012, 01:13 PM
Well, i think this subject could turn into a pretty interesting discussion IF everybody is willing to put his ego aside and listen to what everybody has to say without making fun of them.
Believe me, It would escalate over.. It wont be just "Making fun of"

Im very interested in this thread and what the people have to say, but Its really getting close to the bad side..

ProletariatPleb
09-08-2012, 01:15 PM
Well, i think this subject could turn into a pretty interesting discussion IF everybody is willing to put his ego aside and listen to what everybody has to say without making fun of them. In that way even controversial things can easily be discussed.
Which never happens.

Assassin_M
09-08-2012, 01:16 PM
Which never happens.
Exactly...

De Filosoof
09-08-2012, 01:17 PM
We'll see.

RatonhnhakeFan
09-08-2012, 01:17 PM
We all have to remember though, just because events transpired a certain way in the games, it doesn't mean that's how it is in real life.

I hate to be the "It's just a game" guy, but it really is. It's a work of fiction.Then again, to some people religion is also a work of fiction so it would be fiction incorporating previous fiction ;P

Assassin_M
09-08-2012, 01:20 PM
Then again, to some people religion is also a work of fiction so it would be fiction incorporating previous fiction ;P
Works of fiction have greatly influenced others in the past.. I don't see why a game couldn't

RatonhnhakeFan
09-08-2012, 01:22 PM
Works of fiction have greatly influenced others in the past.. I don't see why a game couldn'tOf course, I said it myself on previous page :p

Assassin_M
09-08-2012, 01:23 PM
Of course, I said it myself on previous page :p
I know..

I was just adding xD

Legendz54
09-08-2012, 01:26 PM
The Assassins creed series hasn't changed much about what i believe in, It does bring a good idea that there are bigger more secret organisations behind the government.

Steww-
09-08-2012, 02:21 PM
Assassin's Creed is just exploring the ways in which faith, and even political theories, can be used to exploit people. While perhaps it can allow someone to gain insight on the social effects of religion, it's a bad idea to make decisions on the validity of a belief based on what those who follow it do.

Lass4r
09-08-2012, 02:39 PM
On a related note, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Ezio actually considered himself a christian? Altair I don't know about, I'll assume he was muslim.

Assassin_M
09-08-2012, 02:45 PM
On a related note, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Ezio actually considered himself a christian? Altair I don't know about, I'll assume he was muslim.
Ezio`s faith wasn't fully revealed..

Altair, however; is Atheist.. or at least Agnostic..He`s definitely not Muslim, though..

POP1Fan
09-08-2012, 02:46 PM
I really think there is a fine line between religion and faith. You can have faith in a God and that's perfectly fine, while still not being a religious person. I will say that during history, religion and even God himself was used as a mean of controling people, but right now there are still much more theists than atheists and many of them only believe out of pure faith, not out of fear for example.
To me, Assassin's Creed didn't really change anything on my views since I wasn't a religious person before and since I started playing I lost my faith and have my own thoughts on the matter. I am an atheist, former Orthodox Christian, member of a Christian family and surrounded by believers. Interesting topic.

De Filosoof
09-08-2012, 03:17 PM
I really think there is a fine line between religion and faith. You can have faith in a God and that's perfectly fine, while still not being a religious person. I will say that during history, religion and even God himself was used as a mean of controling people, but right now there are still much more theists than atheists and many of them only believe out of pure faith, not out of fear for example.
To me, Assassin's Creed didn't really change anything on my views since I wasn't a religious person before and since I started playing I lost my faith and have my own thoughts on the matter. I am an atheist, former Orthodox Christian, member of a Christian family and surrounded by believers. Interesting topic.

Well said my friend :). I think it is still used to control large groups of people with indirect fear (especially fear to oppose the status quo) in many ways, not direct fear like it used to be.
I think they eventually realized that it didn't work that way.

Steww-
09-08-2012, 03:26 PM
I really think there is a fine line between religion and faith. You can have faith in a God and that's perfectly fine, while still not being a religious person. I will say that during history, religion and even God himself was used as a mean of controling people, but right now there are still much more theists than atheists and many of them only believe out of pure faith, not out of fear for example.

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand your distinction. What do you class as a religious person?

ShadowRage41
09-08-2012, 03:29 PM
I will start with saying I'am only 15 years old and I'am from Belgium where almost nobody under 30 and even older believes in God.Neither do I. But my teacher faith once said:I believe in a God that doesen't exist.It made me wonder if people from other relegions also think like that. people from Islam spend much more time in faith then Christians (at least in Belgium, my teacher also says that in Spain a lot people still believe in God.
In medieval ages almost everyone believed in God and the church who was corrupted used them to get power over the lower classes.Thats wath i learned from assassin's creed. I searched on internet and saw that it actualy truley was like that.Just like with the Greeks and Romans the people believed in the Gods and the priest used their "Ilusions"
to get power and become rich.
So assassin's creed made me thinking about a lot and i realised that faith (in my eyes!) is one big Illusion.That doesen't take away that people can put strenght out of their faith.
So assassin's creed changed the way i think about faith, especially the church.
Did it changed anything for you?

ps:sorry if this thread sounds like complete bull**** to you and, or my English is bad.

First to the question, did Assassin's Creed change the way I viewed my faith, or church?> It did not change anything for me. I appreciated the fact that it shines a light on corruption, but it is not exclusive to religions.. .political figures, or leaders ,organizations, ideologies, ect can provide people with illusions as well, how many people follow and believe in a certain political figure or political ideology only to discover it was nothing but a con? Wherever man is present within an organization you have the capacity for either great good such as--- Martin Luther King Jr, or Mahatma Ghandi. both were men of faith, and through their faith they did great good., or great evil which there are numerous examples of. But the problem of delusion and illusion is not exclusively a problem of faith or with churches.

.There was a time when the churches had great influence, in Europe. and men who wanted to use influence would find a launching pad to further "their ambitions". But everyone can see what the fruit of their labor was... But were these men honestly "men of faith?" I would say no.

But I also know there have been, leaders of faith that have brought truth through their lives and the way they lived. That brought about great change. and improved the lives of many people. I would in no way view that as "illusion and delusion." JMHO

St. Augustine wrote in his Confessions, "It is one thing to see the land of peace from a wooded ridge…and another to tread the road that leads to it."

POP1Fan
09-08-2012, 03:32 PM
Sorry, I'm not sure I understand your distinction. What do you class as a religious person?
Imo, a religious person is one who follows every "dogma" of a religion.

HisSpiritLives
09-08-2012, 03:36 PM
I will start with saying I'am only 15 years old and I'am from Belgium where almost nobody under 30 and even older believes in God.Neither do I. But my teacher faith once said:I believe in a God that doesen't exist.It made me wonder if people from other relegions also think like that. people from Islam spend much more time in faith then Christians (at least in Belgium, my teacher also says that in Spain a lot people still believe in God.
In medieval ages almost everyone believed in God and the church who was corrupted used them to get power over the lower classes.Thats wath i learned from assassin's creed. I searched on internet and saw that it actualy truley was like that.Just like with the Greeks and Romans the people believed in the Gods and the priest used their "Ilusions"
to get power and become rich.
So assassin's creed made me thinking about a lot and i realised that faith (in my eyes!) is one big Illusion.That doesen't take away that people can put strenght out of their faith.
So assassin's creed changed the way i think about faith, especially the church.
Did it changed anything for you?

ps:sorry if this thread sounds like complete bull**** to you and, or my English is bad.

Religion and faith are two different things,i am not going in futher disscusion of that but AC doesnt teach us that God dont exist they are just showing how church(Templars) used religion faith and God for their own purposes and how they are using it in these days .

raytrek79
09-08-2012, 03:39 PM
In my experience, no one understands what God is, but everyone has experienced love and knows what it is, we all know the difference between love and hate. What ever inspires you to behave in the spirit of love is what counts, and it does not have to have any metaphysical faith to do that, just empathy. It is a good feeling to do good to others, and you do not want to anger others, so it is just plain logic to be kind, it make your life and everyone elses better. The fate of the world does not depend on what is right or wrong but on that simple choice each of us have, to love or hate.

SixKeys
09-08-2012, 03:41 PM
I don't understand the distinction between a religious person and a person who has faith in God/s. If you believe in God, your definition of God must come from some religion, no? Otherwise how would you even know to classify it as a god?

I also hate the word "spiritual" (as in "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual") because nobody has ever given a satisfactory definition of it. It's one of those words people expect everyone to understand on some level, like "soul", but when you really try to define exactly what it means, you get a lot of vague, nondescript and often contradictory definitions.

Regarding the games, I've always felt the AC series has gotten away with a lot of stuff that would in other media be considered fairly controversial. They have a disclaimer at the beginning of each game stating it was made by a multicultural team of various religious beliefs, yet the games have an undeniably secular perspective. They've heavily implied figures like Jesus and Moses were just ordinary men who used advanced technology to fabricate "miracles", Altaïr is pretty straightforward when it comes to his atheism (referring to gods as "invisible monsters") and TWCB flat out state that people throughout history used to think of them as gods simply because they didn't have enough understanding of science to grasp them as anything else. If this stuff had been brought up in a Hollywood movie, people would be protesting left and right, I'm sure of that. For a video game to tackle a topic as sensitive as religion is a bold move, yet it somehow seems to have flown under the radar of most media.

POP1Fan
09-08-2012, 03:46 PM
I don't understand the distinction between a religious person and a person who has faith in God/s. If you believe in God, your definition of God must come from some religion, no? Otherwise how would you even know to classify it as a god?



Let me put it this way. You might belive in God, but you don't go to the church.

SixKeys
09-08-2012, 03:46 PM
Let me put it this way. You might belive in God, but you don't go to the church.

Yes, but where did your definition of God come from? The church.

Steww-
09-08-2012, 03:47 PM
Imo, a religious person is one who follows every "dogma" of a religion.
" You can have faith in a God and that's perfectly fine, while still not being a religious person."

Then your first statement isn't talking about genuine faith. If someone has faith in a god, and then ignores a commandment/rule/dogma, they should reconsider their faith.

Saar Ben Kiki
09-08-2012, 03:48 PM
im a jewish agnostic atheist..
in most places religion is still very strong but in europe atheism is the rule (mainly because europeans are smart, no offence) but itll slowly infiltrate other locales because religion has always been in decline

TheHumanTowel
09-08-2012, 03:52 PM
im a jewish agnostic atheist..
in most places religion is still very strong but in europe atheism is the rule (mainly because europeans are smart, no offence) but itll slowly infiltrate other locales because religion has always been in decline
There's no need to insult the intelligence of religious people. Just because you say no offence doesn't mean you don't cause offence. Statements like that are the ones that cause flamewars and will get this thread locked.

POP1Fan
09-08-2012, 03:52 PM
" You can have faith in a God and that's perfectly fine, while still not being a religious person."

Then your first statement isn't talking about genuine faith. If someone has faith in a god, and then ignores a commandment/rule/dogma, they should reconsider their faith.

Religions, as dogmas are made by men. You can belive in a god and not do anything against that belief, while still not accepting what it's church makes you to do.

raytrek79
09-08-2012, 03:55 PM
I believe in God, I'm not the slightest bit agnostic, but my view of what God is has never been taught by any religion, and it has no relevence except as a curiosity.

Steww-
09-08-2012, 03:55 PM
Religions, as dogmas are made by men. You can belive in a god and not do anything against that belief, while still not accepting what it's church makes you to do.

I wasn't going to start specifying religions, but it's probably necessary here.

I am a Protestant Christian. Can you give me one example of something my Church tells me to do, that Jesus did not?

ShadowRage41
09-08-2012, 03:57 PM
I don't understand the distinction between a religious person and a person who has faith in God/s. If you believe in God, your definition of God must come from some religion, no? Otherwise how would you even know to classify it as a god?
Religion>>> Following a strict guideline set before you by "leaders" or the church. may concern interpretation of scripture ect.
Faith>>> Does not concern it's self with the edicts of a "church/ leaders. Ect." Following God through belief in the scriptures, With your own conscience as your guide.

Spiritual means one thing to someone with a christian background. and another thing to those of an Eastern back ground. that is why it seems vague to you. because it's personal.
Like the Zen master who asked his student to describe what a rose smells like.

SixKeys
09-08-2012, 03:59 PM
Religions, as dogmas are made by men. You can belive in a god and not do anything against that belief, while still not accepting what it's church makes you to do.

Let's say the god you believe in is the Christian God, just as an example. Where does your definition of God come from? The Bible. Who wrote the Bible? Ordinary men. But the Bible claims to be the infallible word of God. So when the Bible says something you disagree with, do you blame fallible men or God for being wrong? How do you determine what's right? If some parts of the Bible are inaccurate, how do you determine which parts of it are accurate? How do you know your definition of God, i.e. the Christian God, the biblical God, is accurate if there are other parts of the book that you think are inaccurate?

POP1Fan
09-08-2012, 04:01 PM
I wasn't going to start specifying religions, but it's probably necessary here.

I am a Protestant Christian. Can you give me one example of something my Church tells me to do, that Jesus did not?

I don't have the knowledge of what "rituals" the Protestants do, but I will try to give another example that I can master.
In Christianity, being with a loved one outside of marriage is considered a sin. I haven't read the Bible or anything, but I am pretty sure that Jesus preached love, not marriage.

raytrek79
09-08-2012, 04:03 PM
Jesus gave us a whole bunch of examples of how love may manifest in our deeds toward each other. The problem with many religious people is they confuse judgementality with righteousness. When others do not live up to their idea of right and wrong, they stop behaving in the spirit of love toward them, FAIL!!!

SixKeys
09-08-2012, 04:04 PM
Religion>>> Following a strict guideline set before you by "leaders" or the church. may concern interpretation of scripture ect.
Faith>>> Does not concern it's self with the edicts of a "church/ leaders. Ect." Following God through belief in the scriptures, With your own conscience as your guide.

So basically picking and choosing the parts of the Scripture that you agree with and ignoring the bits you don't. If you follow your conscience to determine what's right or wrong anyway, why does God need to enter the equation at all?


Spiritual means one thing to someone with a christian background. and another thing to those of an Eastern back ground. that is why it seems vague to you. because it's personal.
Like the Zen master who asked his student to describe what a rose smells like.

It does not "seem" vague to me, it is vague exactly because the definition seems to change from person to person. If I ask for the Chinese word for "heart", I will be sure to get an, if not entirely similar, at least very close description compared to how a western person would describe the same word. If a religious person tells me they're spiritual and they can't explain what that means, then it's a completely useless word. They might as well have said "I'm not religious, I'm snarfleblat".

ShadowRage41
09-08-2012, 04:06 PM
Let's say the god you believe in is the Christian God, just as an example. Where does your definition of God come from? The Bible. Who wrote the Bible? Ordinary men. But the Bible claims to be the infallible word of God. So when the Bible says something you disagree with, do you blame fallible men or God for being wrong? How do you determine what's right? If some parts of the Bible are inaccurate, how do you determine which parts of it are accurate? How do you know your definition of God, i.e. the Christian God, the biblical God, is accurate if there are other parts of the book that you think are inaccurate?


LOL... One scripture says Judas Iscariot went and hung himself, and another says. go and do ye likewise. That is a blatant example of how scriptures can be twisted. you have to view it in it's proper context. I mean obviously Jim Jones was "off" a bit.. or how about David Koresh? there are limitless examples where scripture is twisted. That is why we have minds... When in doubt return to I Corinth:13

POP1Fan
09-08-2012, 04:08 PM
Let's say the god you believe in is the Christian God, just as an example. Where does your definition of God come from? The Bible. Who wrote the Bible? Ordinary men. But the Bible claims to be the infallible word of God. So when the Bible says something you disagree with, do you blame fallible men or God for being wrong? How do you determine what's right? If some parts of the Bible are inaccurate, how do you determine which parts of it are accurate? How do you know your definition of God, i.e. the Christian God, the biblical God, is accurate if there are other parts of the book that you think are inaccurate?

No, the Christian God was believed in before the Bible was wrote and construced by the Vatican. It still holds the essence of what is "true" about the Christian God, but you don't have to belive it word by word.

De Filosoof
09-08-2012, 04:09 PM
First to the question, did Assassin's Creed change the way I viewed my faith, or church?> It did not change anything for me. I appreciated the fact that it shines a light on corruption, but it is not exclusive to religions.. .political figures, or leaders ,organizations, ideologies, ect can provide people with illusions as well, how many people follow and believe in a certain political figure or political ideology only to discover it was nothing but a con? Wherever man is present within an organization you have the capacity for either great good such as--- Martin Luther King Jr, or Mahatma Ghandi. both were men of faith, and through their faith they did great good., or great evil which there are numerous examples of. But the problem of delusion and illusion is not exclusively a problem of faith or with churches.

.There was a time when the churches had great influence, in Europe. and men who wanted to use influence would find a launching pad to further "their ambitions". But everyone can see what the fruit of their labor was... But were these men honestly "men of faith?" I would say no.

But I also know there have been, leaders of faith that have brought truth through their lives and the way they lived. That brought about great change. and improved the lives of many people. I would in no way view that as "illusion and delusion." JMHO

St. Augustine wrote in his Confessions, "It is one thing to see the land of peace from a wooded ridge…and another to tread the road that leads to it."



Great arguments! Great discussion here, everybody has some really good points actually..

SixKeys
09-08-2012, 04:10 PM
LOL... One scripture says Judas Iscariot went and hung himself, and another says. go and do ye likewise. That is a blatant example of how scriptures can be twisted. you have to view it in it's proper context. I mean obviously Jim Jones was "off" a bit.. or how about David Koresh? there are limitless examples where scripture is twisted. That is why we have minds... When in doubt return to I Corinth:13

Exactly. Many parts of the scriptures are contradictory or at least questionable in a moral sense. So how do you determine which parts are true? How do you determine if ANY of it is true?

Steww-
09-08-2012, 04:13 PM
I don't have the knowledge of what "rituals" the Protestants do, but I will try to give another example that I can master.
In Christianity, being with a loved one outside of marriage is considered a sin. I haven't read the Bible or anything, but I am pretty sure that Jesus preached love, not marriage.

An excerpt from Matthew 19, about divorce:
“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

I'm also assuming by "being with a loved one outside of marriage" means sex. So when you say Jesus preached love, I certainly don't think he preached extramarital sex.

SixKeys
09-08-2012, 04:14 PM
No, the Christian God was believed in before the Bible was wrote and construced by the Vatican. It still holds the essence of what is "true" about the Christian God, but you don't have to belive it word by word.

Umm, the Vatican didn't write the Bible. They simply collected all the various scriptures floating around and over time decided which ones to keep and which ones to throw away. So obviously yes, God was believed in before the Bible was collected into the one massive volume we know today, but it's also missing bits the Church considered too controversial or contradictory and is heavily edited. That being the case, how do you know it still contains the essence of what is supposed to be the truth? It's like if someone found the original copy of Anne Frank's diary, edited out all the depressing Nazi bits and changed the ending to a happy one where Anne survives and claimed the book still holds the "true" essence of the story.

raytrek79
09-08-2012, 04:16 PM
When in doubt return to I Corinth:13

That is a good scripture, I say, when in doubt return to John 13:34-35, it is so easy to remember word for word, it doesn't need any elaboration, it is irrefutable.

ShadowRage41
09-08-2012, 04:16 PM
So basically picking and choosing the parts of the Scripture that you agree with and ignoring the bits you don't. If you follow your conscience to determine what's right or wrong anyway, why does God need to enter the equation at all?



It does not "seem" vague to me, it is vague exactly because the definition seems to change from person to person. If I ask for the Chinese word for "heart", I will be sure to get an, if not entirely similar, at least very close description compared to how a western person would describe the same word. If a religious person tells me they're spiritual and they can't explain what that means, then it's a completely useless word. They might as well have said "I'm not religious, I'm snarfleblat".

No>>> accepting the entire work, not falling into the thralls who follow the "Leader" who bends the scriptures for his own benefit... "interpretation" I mean nothing is as black and white as you are saying. if it were? why would there be a need for supreme court justices to rule on our laws? or lawyers to argue whether a defendant is guilty or innocent based on our laws? heck someone is accused of murder. and by law we have the death penalty, why not just put them to death. why must due process be followed? It's no different where scriptures are concerned. You are an unbeliever, so I doubt very seriously you have spent an inordinate amount of time reading the scriptures. or the Dhammapada ect. I tend to side with Rene Descartes on the subject.

POP1Fan
09-08-2012, 04:16 PM
Exactly. Many parts of the scriptures are contradictory or at least questionable in a moral sense. So how do you determine which parts are true? How do you determine if ANY of it is true?

Simple, you don't.
You only act in the SPIRIT of the Bible, not by the word of it.
The spirit of the Bible is that God wants peace and love among men. Finding a wife you love, making a child that you love and not killing anyone act acording to the spirit of the Bible, while not having to dissect it.


An excerpt from Matthew 19, about divorce:
“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

I'm also assuming by "being with a loved one outside of marriage" means sex. So when you say Jesus preached love, I certainly don't think he preached extramarital sex.

I'm not talking about sex, I am talking about by celibacy.

Steww-
09-08-2012, 04:20 PM
Umm, the Vatican didn't write the Bible. They simply collected all the various scriptures floating around and over time decided which ones to keep and which ones to throw away. So obviously yes, God was believed in before the Bible was collected into the one massive volume we know today, but it's also missing bits the Church considered too controversial or contradictory and is heavily edited. That being the case, how do you know it still contains the essence of what is supposed to be the truth? It's like if someone found the original copy of Anne Frank's diary, edited out all the depressing Nazi bits and changed the ending to a happy one where Anne survives and claimed the book still holds the "true" essence of the story.

I don't really see how you can go wrong with "Love your neighbour as yourself."
Could you give some sources, or reading, for parts edited out? It's something I'm interested in, but have never really looked into.

TheHumanTowel
09-08-2012, 04:20 PM
This thread has gone way off-topic. It's about religion AND assassin's creed. Not let's have a debate over whether religion is right or not. Can we get back on-topic?

ProletariatPleb
09-08-2012, 04:23 PM
Religion and Politics, never talk about these two in a public forum, always ends up as something else.

raytrek79
09-08-2012, 04:23 PM
The Bible does not have contradictions, it is just full of examples of how we may fall short and examples of how love may manifest, then there is a heap of it that is metaphorical and a heap that is literal. The confusion is that no one really knows what is what. Also it has lost heaps in translations.

POP1Fan
09-08-2012, 04:23 PM
Umm, the Vatican didn't write the Bible. They simply collected all the various scriptures floating around and over time decided which ones to keep and which ones to throw away. So obviously yes, God was believed in before the Bible was collected into the one massive volume we know today, but it's also missing bits the Church considered too controversial or contradictory and is heavily edited. That being the case, how do you know it still contains the essence of what is supposed to be the truth? It's like if someone found the original copy of Anne Frank's diary, edited out all the depressing Nazi bits and changed the ending to a happy one where Anne survives and claimed the book still holds the "true" essence of the story.

I am missing a comma there. I meant wrote then constructed by the Vatican. And as long as the essence stays love and peace I think it is about right, since there is another religion, Islam, where Jesus is not God, but his message is more or less the same.


This thread has gone way off-topic. It's about religion AND assassin's creed. Not let's have a debate over whether religion is right or not. Can we get back on-topic?

Well, the OP's question was "how did AC change your views?". Some answered and now explain what those views are. I don't think it's THAT off-topic.

SixKeys
09-08-2012, 04:24 PM
No>>> accepting the entire work, not falling into the thralls who follow the "Leader" who bends the scriptures for his own benefit... "interpretation" I mean nothing is as black and white as you are saying. if it were? why would there be a need for supreme court justices to rule on our laws? or lawyers to argue whether a defendant is guilty or innocent based on our laws? heck someone is accused of murder. and by law we have the death penalty, why not just put them to death. why must due process be followed? It's no different where scriptures are concerned. You are an unbeliever, so I doubt very seriously you have spent an inordinate amount of time reading the scriptures. or the Dhammapada ect. I tend to side with Rene Descartes on the subject.

I was a believer for over 20 years. You'd be surprised how well many atheists know their Bible compared to many Christians.

We don't have the death penalty where I live, so your argument is invalid. And while I don't see things in black and white as you claim, the black-and-white nature of crimes is exactly why we have basis for following due process. You have "guilty" and "not guilty", "innocent" and "corrupt". In order to determine whether a person is one of these things, due process must be followed and evidence must be presented. We don't just throw people in jail or execute them because we feel like it. We do it because we see them as guilty. Your example doesn't make sense.

Everyone bends the scriptures for their own benefit, not just the corrupt leaders. Are you claiming you have no problem with the anti-gay, pro-slavery or misogynist parts of the Bible? They exist and are easy to find, the men who wrote them 2,000 years ago were not bashful about claiming God was a-okay with all of these. Yet today, most people simply say "oh, that's the Old Testament, we don't have to believe that anymore". They're choosing to bend statements that the Bible clearly makes to their own benefit, to ease their conscience for not believing things their God is telling them they should believe.

ProletariatPleb
09-08-2012, 04:25 PM
Lock this thread please!

Steww-
09-08-2012, 04:27 PM
I'm not talking about sex, I am talking about by celibacy.

I see. Well, we've established that Jesus wasn't against marriage, so it doesn't really matter.
Paul also says that while celibacy is better, marriage is acceptable.

Steww-
09-08-2012, 04:32 PM
Sorry if this turns out as a double post.


I was a believer for over 20 years. You'd be surprised how well many atheists know their Bible compared to many Christians.

We don't have the death penalty where I live, so your argument is invalid. And while I don't see things in black and white as you claim, the black-and-white nature of crimes is exactly why we have basis for following due process. You have "guilty" and "not guilty", "innocent" and "corrupt". In order to determine whether a person is one of these things, due process must be followed and evidence must be presented. We don't just throw people in jail or execute them because we feel like it. We do it because we see them as guilty. Your example doesn't make sense.

Everyone bends the scriptures for their own benefit, not just the corrupt leaders. Are you claiming you have no problem with the anti-gay, pro-slavery or misogynist parts of the Bible? They exist and are easy to find, the men who wrote them 2,000 years ago were not bashful about claiming God was a-okay with all of these. Yet today, most people simply say "oh, that's the Old Testament, we don't have to believe that anymore". They're choosing to bend statements that the Bible clearly makes to their own benefit, to ease their conscience for not believing things their God is telling them they should believe.

My response to the second paragraph: Do you believe morals are objective?

If you want me to back any of these claims up, just say.
Third paragraph: Jesus was not a misogynist.
Where is the Bible pro-slavery?
Be more specific when you say "anti-gay". It's against homosexual acts, not homosexuals. It's also against certain heterosexual acts, so you may as well call it "anti-straight".
And when people say about not obeying the Old Testament, it should be fairly obvious what they mean. They're talking about the fact a new Covenant was established.

raytrek79
09-08-2012, 04:32 PM
AC helped me see that no one is evil, misguided perhaps, but not evil. Even psychopaths, often hated people, simply have an illness. We are all subjects to cause and effect and when we can understand how cause and effect works on the human psyche then we can see that people are not evil, only their deeds can be. Hitler, for example, almost unanimously hated, but simply an ill person who happened to gain the power to magnify that insanity on to the world.

TheHumanTowel
09-08-2012, 04:32 PM
Well, the OP's question was "how did AC change your views?". Some answered and now explain what those views are. I don't think it's THAT off-topic.
It's just the thread has nothing to do with Assassin's Creed anymore. It's just turned into a "your views are wrong" debate.

De Filosoof
09-08-2012, 04:33 PM
Lock this thread please!

Why? It's still a very interesting discussion.

MT4K
09-08-2012, 04:33 PM
This isn't a thread for debating or talking about different religious aspects. It's a thread about how Assassin's Creed changed your views on things.

De Filosoof
09-08-2012, 04:38 PM
Sorry if this turns out as a double post.



My response to the second paragraph: Do you believe morals are objective?

If you want me to back any of these claims up, just say.
Third paragraph: Jesus was not a misogynist.
Where is the Bible pro-slavery?
Be more specific when you say "anti-gay". It's against homosexual acts, not homosexuals. It's also against certain heterosexual acts, so you may as well call it "anti-straight".
And when people say about not obeying the Old Testament, it should be fairly obvious what they mean. They're talking about the fact a new Covenant was established.

Well, the bible is almost 2000 years old so all these things like anti-gay stuff written in the bible are pretty understandable for that time-period, no one has to defend it.
It isn't that long ago that black people got rights so imagine how it was almost 2000 years ago...
It's just a book...written by people.​
That's part of human progress, our believe systems and morals evolve all the time.

That's why i love science because scientists can prove that gay people aren't possessed with some kind of "devilish power" but that it's actually all explainable in a natural way.
Science proofs that thunder and lightning are logical natural reactions, not some kind of god who's angry :).

ProletariatPleb
09-08-2012, 04:41 PM
Where?
Everywhere? Read the last few pages.

raytrek79
09-08-2012, 04:41 PM
The only thing people knew about gays back then was what they had heard about Greek hedonism and from the story about the rape gangs of Sodom, no wonder they were closeminded about it.

Steww-
09-08-2012, 04:43 PM
Well, the bible is almost 2000 years old so all these things like anti-gay are pretty understandable for that time-period, no one has to defend it.
It isn't that long ago that black people got rights so imagine how it was almost 2000 years ago...
It's just a book...written by people.​
Again, be specific when you say anti-gay.
It may just be a book, but I'd say it's an inspired one. Ehh.. y'know, inspired by TWCB. Also, if that was the Ark in Solomon's Temple, were the Commandments really an Apple of Eden?

SixKeys
09-08-2012, 04:43 PM
I don't really see how you can go wrong with "Love your neighbour as yourself."
Could you give some sources, or reading, for parts edited out? It's something I'm interested in, but have never really looked into.

Here's a good place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banned_from_the_Bible
http://choiceindying.com/2011/08/16/the-bible-is-an-edited-collection-of-books-not-a-library/
http://www.nola.com/religion/index.ssf/2011/03/changes_to_the_bible_through_the_ages_are_being_st udied_by_new_orleans_scholars.html

"Love thy neighbor" wasn't an original thought by the time Christianity rolled around. The sentiment had existed in various forms all over the world thousands of years before Jesus's time. So yes, it's a good sentiment, but hardly one that needs to come with all the rest of the baggage attached to Christianity. You don't need to believe in God in order to believe in being decent to your fellow man.


The Bible does not have contradictions, it is just full of examples of how we may fall short and examples of how love may manifest, then there is a heap of it that is metaphorical and a heap that is literal. The confusion is that no one really knows what is what. Also it has lost heaps in translations.

I'm just gonna leave this here: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

MT4K
09-08-2012, 04:46 PM
This has gone on long enough, and since people seem to have ignored my above post....

Locked.