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View Full Version : Polished Aluminium - WHY? in reality



XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 11:40 PM
With all these new amazing skins a question remains unanswered for me. What are the advantages and disadvantages of using no camo at all?

These few are what I thought of. If they are a complete BS, disregard them and write some new or add another. I would really like to know. Thanks.

Advantages
1) No camo will lighten the aircraft (although negligible?)
2) It will make it more aerodynamical (some paintings, esp. early nightfighter's slowed down the plane a +/- 40kmh), the plane is frictionless

Disadvantages
1) The aircraft is like a shining star in the sky, very easily spotted - on the ground as well
2) It can blind the pilot for a moment, from the reflected sun rays on wings etc.

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 11:40 PM
With all these new amazing skins a question remains unanswered for me. What are the advantages and disadvantages of using no camo at all?

These few are what I thought of. If they are a complete BS, disregard them and write some new or add another. I would really like to know. Thanks.

Advantages
1) No camo will lighten the aircraft (although negligible?)
2) It will make it more aerodynamical (some paintings, esp. early nightfighter's slowed down the plane a +/- 40kmh), the plane is frictionless

Disadvantages
1) The aircraft is like a shining star in the sky, very easily spotted - on the ground as well
2) It can blind the pilot for a moment, from the reflected sun rays on wings etc.

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 11:43 PM
Personally i don`t see any advantage in those skins...except being a ...pretty? Good camo is a part of staying alive IMO.

Hats off to Lead and one of NN guys for making them anyways!

V!

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
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"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 11:44 PM
It's not only the friction, it's the weight of the paint. Aircraft paint is heavy as all get out. I've put it on boats, and a gallon weighs, well, a lot.

Also, towards the end of the conflict (WWII) they were trying to entice the Germans up to fight because they knew they were full of planes and out of experienced pilots. Bare aluminium is an eye catcher and attracts


http://www.jw-design.net/SIGGINEW.jpg


The world will change when you are ready to pronounce this oath:
I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man,
nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine.

Miss A. R.

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 11:47 PM
Yes the Camo does lighten the plane like a P-51 greatly but that extra carrying able due to the removal of that paint allows that same plane to carry more weight in weapons the same distance or have a greater range and stay airborne longer.

Also, North American used flush rivets and made the plane smooth straight from the factory and battle damage was easier to repair in the field..

But on a B-17 the range and payload apply but if you read about the changes that brought that on, it was more like the Army Aircorps General useing the bombers as bait, so the Luftwaffe would come-up and fight in the air and allow the escort fighters to shot them down.

Dang it, if I didnt take so long to reply.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Message Edited on 08/11/0310:48PM by JV44Priller

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 11:49 PM
When the USAAF went to natural aluminum a/c they did so to reduce a/c weight and make the a/c more visible to the LW.

If the LW can't find you, then you can't shoot them down, which was what the USAAF wanted to do.

Not sure if it is an issue in FB since reflection is not modelled from that distant 'dot'.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 11:51 PM
Also the USA airfields were not under attack vry much during the late war, so there was no reason for the airplanes to blend in with the ground. Also you would save lots of man hours, not having to paint all those planes.

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XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 11:57 PM
Yes paint is heavy, but that's not the only issue,Matt paint is very draggy as well, more so when it starts to chip and you loose the smooth finish. The P47 used by Gabby Gabreski used to have the paint finish polished to a high degree to try to make it more slippy and faster as speed is crucial, time comes into it as well, they stopped bothering painting the B17 as why camoflauge a bomber that has a vapour trail 10 miles long behind it saying, here I am....

Never been into polished skins myself, but some people love them and the Skill and technique being put into the ones that are being made available is outstanding, I have tried doing it and it is hard and i do a fair bit of skinning, but i take my hat off to them doing them.

Suppose its a personal choice really. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 12:00 AM
JV44Priller wrote:

-
- Dang it, if I didnt take so long to reply.. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
-

You can say that again./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 12:06 AM
Polished aluminium offers a smoother surface and lowers drag, which obviously helps to attain higher topspeeds, faster acceleration and so on. The laminar flow winged P-51 and P-47 very much benefitted from clean and shiny wing surfaces./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 12:08 AM
I've seen with the b17s after painting they weighted 1100lbs more, the lead based enamels they used were so heavy back then.




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XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 12:12 AM
And don´t forget.. If you paint a plane it cost money!
The USAAF wasn´t realy threatened anymore at the end of the war, so the planes are faster and cheaper...


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I./Gruppe

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XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 12:19 AM
the aluminum (Aliminium) a/c before the war were comonly unpainted.

As soon as the war started camo's were aplied, some remote area's like in the early North African theather still had uncomoed Gladiators. Untill strafing wich was queit effective in the Dessert became a real hazzard.

Some pilots in the USAAF did remove paint on leading edges to increase up to 5mph, over standard speed, (not much you think? well in the heat off a fight you might be verey happy beeing 5mph faster especially when chasing a victim with your squadron mates!)

Later in the war paint was left off from the factory to ease the work load and turn out more planes,

By then the allies had air-superiority, only a few pilots would find a occasional enemy that was probaly a very young pilot trown in to the air on a one way mission.
Before this the USAAF pilots had started painting their a/c verey loud and colourfull to stand out in the huge airarm.

A good thing for both the P-51 and P-47 was that with the bare aluminum, beeing mistaken for respectivly a Bf 109 or FW 190 by friendly gunners or aircraft!

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 12:34 AM
For a B-17, the wing area is around 1400 square feet. Assuming there is a sprayed on primer and topcoat, the total dry film build would be 2-4 mills (0.002 to 0.004 inches). Pick the high end, say 4 mills. Assuming the total painted exterior surface is 4 times the wing area and we get a total of about 14 gallons of paint solids on the plane (not to be comfused with the ammount of paint required which would be much higher because it includes solvent).

Assuming a dry film density of 12 lb/gal (probably on the high side - automotive finishes are in the 8-10 lb range) we get 168 lb of paint, that's a lot of extra 0.50 cal rounds you can carry. Heck you could probably knock out a few tiger tanks on the way home with that extra ammo, but that's another story.

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 12:50 AM
In real life Paint is heavy that is why you see modern airliners with there bellys polsihed to sav weight. and believe me it does.

Leutnant Schlageter

KG 54 "Totenlopf Operations Offizer

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 01:43 AM
besides, polished planes are really pertty

----------------------------------------

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 01:48 AM
klower wrote:
- 168 lb of paint, that's a lot
- of extra 0.50 cal rounds you can carry. Heck you
- could probably knock out a few tiger tanks on the
- way home with that extra ammo,

HUH?? LOL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 01:54 AM
Good heavens, 12lbs per gallon? I think it's a bit more than that


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The world will change when you are ready to pronounce this oath:
I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man,
nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine.

Miss A. R.

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 01:54 AM
It's purty, that why!

And towards the end of the war the USAAF had overwheming air superiority. Combined with the savings in weight, the desire to attract the LW and rid them from the skies, why bother with paint?

Of course I may be wrong. Maybe the reason they used polished bare metal skin was because the pilots were so vain they wanted to check themselves out before takeoff to make sure they were as good looking as they were deadly.

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XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 02:24 AM
When your good. You don't have to hide../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Buzz_25th
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XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 02:30 AM
Germans are naturally attracted to shiny metal objects.

So the great idea to draw out the German planes and pilots to be destroyed was to make all US planes bright and shiny.

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 02:34 AM
Iffin' I'm not mistaken...

Both the Nips and the Germs overproduced airframes and underproduced pilots. The Germs actually had their production going up in the final 18 months of the war.

I think. But it was about knocking down pilots


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The world will change when you are ready to pronounce this oath:
I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man,
nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine.

Miss A. R.

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 03:03 AM
I for one, for instance, prefer a dull P-51 and P-47. Polished aluminum is fine for airshow aircraft nowadays, but I believe they weren't polished back in WW2.

From the WW2 photos I've seen, there have been few indeed that actually show a reflection like a mirror. Most are dull and some show shadows, not reflections.
From what I understand, the P-51 wings were painted silver in the production line also.

My favorite P-51 skin is Rammjager's (P-51 PaintKit) for WW2 Fighters. It is the epitemy of what a dull skin should look like. I wish he would do one for FB! Please Rammjager!!

Hammerd has equally done some great P-47 skins as well.

Don't get me wrong. The polished skins are done very nicely. They're just not my cup of tea for an authentic WW2 skin.

Billis

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 03:06 AM
galingula wrote:
- Good heavens, 12lbs per gallon? I think it's a bit
- more than that
-
-
I don't think so. Consider, the paint film is mostly resin (basicly plastic of one type of another), with a specific gravity of around 1.0 (corresponding to about 7.5 lb/gal). There is some filler and some pigment to give the paint it's hiding power and color. These are a small percentage of the volume of the film, though they can be quite dense, lead oxide, titanium dioxide, zinc, they really won't skew the density much above 12 lb/gal, mabey 15 in an extreme case.

For comparison, a gallon of gas weighs about 6 lb and a gallon of water weights about 7.5 lb.

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 03:57 AM
One advantage of a bare metal skin is that surface cracks are easier to see, although I believe the dangers of metal fatigue weren't really recognised until the Comet disasters of the 1950's.

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 04:24 AM
I guess that the paint weight on a fighter may be betweem 35 tp 70 pounds. The USAAF went without camoflage after they effectively had air superiority and the reduced visibility had little remaining impact.

Adler52

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 05:26 AM
Billis851 wrote:


I for one, for instance, prefer a dull P-51 and P-47. Polished aluminum is fine for airshow aircraft nowadays, but I believe they weren't polished back in WW2.

From the WW2 photos I've seen, there have been few indeed that actually show a reflection like a mirror. Most are dull and some show shadows


Many were dull but there were also many that were painted and a lot of them were indeed polished to a VERY high shine. I have a picture of a crewman of the 99th cleaning off a P-51 and you can see his reflection quite clearly in the plane. Many squads kept their planes like that. The cleaner the plane the less drag it had.


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Message Edited on 08/12/0312:35AM by Bearcat99

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 05:52 AM
um...ok.... we didnt go polished planes so the germans could see our planes before we saw them. thats just lame. the plane that sees the other first got the kill over 80% of the time. the US stopped painting the planes because they had complete air superiority and didnt have to worry about hiding their planes and for less drag and weight. but to say they wanted the germans to see their planes is a joke.they used bombers as bait and werent worried about germans seeing them on radar true but to extend that theory by saying we were basically painting targets on our planes is LUDICRUS. hartmanns last kills of the war were due to his seeing reflective planes at long range. but it was worth the effort for the allies. they werent worried about stealth anymore.

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XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 05:57 AM
"Hats off to Lead and one of NN guys for making them
- anyways!"
crazyivan1970

yep, those skins are beautiful ...

not too practical to some, but beautiful.

the NN guy is NN Avirex


up the skinners!


falcon

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XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 06:18 AM
Paint in itself is so heavy, that nowadays after painting an aircraft, you need new weight/balance sheets, even with small aircrafts like Pipers and Cessnas..

rgds

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 06:19 AM
One time, I decided to paint my RC plane and guess what? It looks pretty but it won't takeoff anymore. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


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XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 06:57 AM
In modern times, it has been found that a smooth surface does not necessarily reduce drag. A thin, turbulent film over the surface makes the transition from zero airsped relative to the surface to full slipstream much less resistive. The seemingly rough surface quality of Mig 29:s was scoffed at umtil it was found that it reduced the overall friction quite a bit. Today you have a virtual "sharkskin" frenzy out there applying this to boats, a/c and even swimwear!

/Jilli

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 07:14 AM
Salute

The USAAF pilots were polishing their planes with wax anyway, prior to going to bare aluminum. For the same reasons, to increase the slipperyness of the aircraft.

What this meant was they reflected a lot of light previously anyway. So going to bare aluminum didn't make much difference in terms of visibility.

Here's an interview with Bob Johnson done by Widewing, an aircraft enthusiast: (I always like posting this interview, its a very revealing one)

If you read down to the bottom of the interview, you will come across the mention of his crew waxing the aircraft.

>>>>>>>

A few months before Robert Johnson died (December 27th, 1998), I conducted nearly five hours of telephone interviews with Bob over the course of three weeks. I managed to record all but the first hour. During our conversations, we discussed the tactics he employed while battling the Luftwaffe. The following are some excerpts of our discussions:

CCJ: I have read an article about you and the tactics you used, that described you as one of the first fighter pilots to truly fight in the vertical plane.

RSJ: I don't know about that, there were others who fought that way.

CCJ: But not in the Thunderbolt....

RSJ: No, I guess not, at least when we first went operational.

CCJ: Can you describe how you used vertical maneuvering to your advantage, especially in the heavy-weight Jug?

RSJ: I think that you need to understand that everyone thought that the P-47 was a deathtrap. RAF pilots told us that we wouldn't have a chance against single-engine fighters. Those of us who had been flying the P-47 for a while knew otherwise, but there was nothing we could say that would convince the British, or the guys in the 4th.

CCJ: Guys in the 4th? You mean the 4th Fighter Group?

RSJ: Yeah. They were not at all happy trading in their Spitfires for the Thunderbolt.

CCJ: Didn't the 56th surrender their P-47s to the 4th after you arrived?

RSJ: Yes, we were told that we would be getting new planes.

CCJ: I'll bet that struck a nerve in the 56th.

RSJ: It sure did. We already had hundreds of hours in P-47Bs and Cs. No other group of pilots in the ETO had anywhere near our experience in the Thunderbolt. So naturally, we were not happy to hand them over to another Group. In retrospect, it was obviously a good idea. We realized as soon as we got into combat that there was no substitute for actual combat missions under your belt. Anyway, we trained the 4th on the Thunderbolt and then waited for what seemed like forever, to get our new planes.

CCJ: To get back to tactics, how did your tactics evolve?

RSJ: My tactics were rooted in what I had learned flying the P-47 in the States. We could always find some Navy Corsairs over Long Island Sound. We would bounce them, or they would try to bounce us. Usually, we had the advantage in height so the Corsairs were a lot busier than us.

CCJ: I take it that you seldom let an opportunity to jump them go waste?

RSJ: No, we usually went straight for them.

CCJ: Didn't they see you rolling in?

RSJ: Sometimes. We tried to use the sun to hide in. If they didn't spot us, we would lay it on them good. Their first hint that we were there was when we tore through them at high speed and zoomed back up above them.

CCJ: How did they react?

RSJ: They would usually scatter every which way. We would come back down on them again, but they would be alert now and break into us.

CCJ: I guess that is the point where it would break down into a big brawl?

RSJ: It did at first. The Corsair was just a fast as the Thunderbolt was around 20,000 feet., and it was very maneuverable. As we mixed it up and lost altitude, the Corsair became a real handful to outfly with our P-47Bs. I discovered that the Corsair pilots did not like fighting up hill. What I mean is, they would not or maybe could not follow you if you pulled the nose up into a steep climb. I realized that the Corsair couldn't climb any better than the P-47, and would tend to spin out of a vertical stall. I also found that that any P-47, even the P-47B, could out-dive the Corsair. So that gave me two important advantages that I would use every chance I got.

CCJ: So these mock dogfights helped you learn how to exploit the inherent strengths of the Thunderbolt.

RSJ: Yes, very much so.

CCJ: What about facing the Fw 190 and Messerschmitts?

RSJ: The Focke Wulf reminded me of the Corsair. It was much smaller of course, but they both had similar maneuverability. It wasn't quite as fast, but turned well. It was unusual to find Focke Wulfs above us. Generally, we held the advantage in height.
The Me 109 was another story. They could often be seen up above 35,000 feet.

CCJ: What was the biggest mistake a German pilot could make?

RSJ: Trying to escape in a dive or split-S.

CCJ: Why?

RSJ: Because they were not going to out-run the Thunderbolt in a dive.

CCJ: You could catch them without a problem.

RSJ: I could catch them in nothing flat.

CCJ: Really?

RSJ: Absolutely. One thing about the 190, if the pilot continued his dive below 7 or 8 thousand feet, he could not pull out before he hit the ground. I guess they had compressibility problems or the elevators got too stiff. Whatever the problem was, I watched several of them pancake in before they could level off.

CCJ: What about the Thunderbolt?

RSJ: It did not have that problem down that low. Up high, above 25,000 feet, yes, I could get into compressibility and the elevators locked up like they were in concrete. But once you got down to thicker air, you regained control.

CCJ: So, what would you do if suddenly discovered a German fighter on your tail?

RSJ: you mean in close?

CCJ: Yes.

RSJ: That depended a lot on how fast the German was going. If he was moving much faster, I'd simply side-step him by rolling.
The German would whiz right on by and I would firewall the throttle and take off after him. If he was a smart German, he would climb straight ahead. If he was a dumb German, he would try to turn. If he turns, his higher speed will make for a wide turn, and I will cut across and be all over him. If he dives, I can follow and eventually catch up. Now, if the German's speed was close to mine, then I had another emergency maneuver that always worked for me.

CCJ: And, that was?

RSJ: I would pull the nose straight up into a vertical rolling spiral, usually to the left. You would stall out, but so would the guy behind you. That killed his advantage.

CCJ: So, what you are describing sounds like a rolling hammerhead stall, right?

RSJ: That's a pretty good description.

CCJ: So what happens next?

RSJ: Well, the enemy would stall first because the Jug's mass allowed to retain its,
er...

CCJ: Energy?

RSJ: Yes, energy. The P-47's mass allowed it to retain its energy better and it stalled a few seconds after the enemy plane. The German would snap over and head down. Except, now I was right behind him and there was no getting away.

CCJ: Wouldn't he still be directly behind you?

RSJ: No. Pulling up so suddenly always caught them by surprise. The second or two that it took for them to react took care of that.

CCJ: Why did you roll?

RSJ: Because that killed my speed faster than the enemy if he didn't, which gained me the advantage of being to his rear as he zoomed up. If he rolled too, that also worked to my advantage because it killed his speed faster than mine.

CCJ: So, you would get the advantage no matter what, if the German also pulled up into a vertical climb. What if he didn't follow?

RSJ: Then he would just fly by. If he still wanted to fight, he could extend out and turn around, but I would be waiting for him.
If he turned either left or right, I would be on him in a few seconds.

CCJ: The smart Germans just kept on going when you pulled up.

RSJ: I never ran across one smart enough to keep going. They all tried to follow.

CCJ: How many got away after falling for your trap?

RSJ: I really can't say for sure. Some got away because he had friends to cover his tail. Besides, that maneuver was not so much to get him, but to prevent him from getting me. In that respect, it always worked.

CCJ: Much has been written about the incredible roll rate of the Fw 190. Was it as good as they say?

RSJ: The 190 rolled very fast. But, so did the Thunderbolt.

CCJ: But not as quickly as the Focke Wulf.

RSJ: I would say just as fast. I never had a 190 out-roll my Jug. Never.

CCJ: What about a situation where you end up in rolling scissors with a Focke Wulf? Do you follow him by reversing the turn too?

RSJ: No. Whenever you get into a series of reverses, the airplane tends to mush-out a bit when you reverse your turn. The Jug tended to mush a bit more than the 190. The way to avoid this was roll into the reverse.

CCJ: I'm not sure I follow you.

RSJ: Picture this in your mind. The 190 rolls into a hard left. You follow, firing as he crosses your guns. Suddenly, he reverses his turn, hard right. Rather than reverse, you continue rolling left until you are in a right bank, just like the 190. Now, pull hard. No mushing. If he reverses again, you roll left and fire as he crosses your guns again. If he doesn't reverse, I pull the nose high and roll out behind him.

CCJ: A high yo-yo?

RSJ: Of a sorts, yes. Continuing the roll simply eliminated the mushing caused by reversing a turn and I could would get a clear shot every time the enemy reversed.

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

RSJ: It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

CCJ: I remember reading where you thought that your P-47 was the fastest fighter in the ETO.

RSJ: I still believe that it was.

CCJ: Really?

RSJ: Sure. My second Jug, a D-5 was the best P-47 that I ever flew, and I flew them all, including the P-47M which the 56th got near the end of the war.

CCJ: What made this one Thunderbolt so fast?

RSJ: Several things. My crew sanded every joint smooth, and waxed it to a high gloss. Factory technical reps showed my crew chief, Pappy Gould, how to adjust the wastegates to keep the boost pressure higher than normal. My D-5, which I named Lucky, had water injection. I never used the water injection in combat. I didn't need it. From time to time I'd switch it on, push the throttle up to 72" of manifold pressure and the head rest would smack me from behind. I would let her run for a few minutes just for the fun of it.

CCJ: 72 inches!? Did you ever take note of your airspeed during one of those runs?

RSJ: Of course.

CCJ: And....... how fast did it go?

RSJ: I've seen just over 300 at altitude.

CCJ: 300 indicated?

RSJ: Yes.

CCJ: What was your altitude?

RSJ: I guess it was right around 32,000 feet.

CCJ: Geez, thats well over 450 mph!

RSJ: Oh, I figure closer to 470.

CCJ: Maybe you did have the fastest fighter in the ETO after all.

RSJ: Like I said, Lucky was the fastest.

CCJ: What ever happened to Lucky?

RSJ: She was lost in a mid-air collision over the North Sea. I don't recall the pilot's name who was flying her on that ramrod. I was very upset. Lucky got at least 24 enemy aircraft and was the best Jug I ever flew. She was trouble free and I never had a single abort while flying her.

CCJ: Bob, one final item before I let you go tonight.

RSJ: Sure.

CCJ: Is it true that you flew two 25 hour tour extensions after your 25th victory, and that you never were involved in a single combat during that time?

RSJ: Basically, yes. I took a 25 hour extension with the idea that as soon as I got 2 more enemy aircraft, I would stop there and go home. After the 25 hours were up and I hadn't had a chance to even fire at an enemy airplane, so I convinced the brass to give me another 25 hour extension under the same understanding. Finally, on the last mission of that tour, I got two more and they sent me home.

CCJ: Why do you think that German fighters became so hard to come by at that time. When was that, in April and May of 1944?

RSJ: I can't say for sure, but we now know that the long range of the P-38 and P-51 caused the Luftwaffe to pull back many of their fighter squadrons deep into Germany. This makes sense when you think that we could put up over 600 P-47s for a ramrod. If they pull back beyond the range of the Jugs, we won't see much of them. Another thing was simple bad luck. When the Germans did come up to fight, they attacked the bombers well away from our assigned area. So, it really was a combination of factors.

CCJ: So, what was the date of your last two victories?

RSJ: May 8th, 1944.

CCJ: Well, Bob, I'll let you go now. Thanks for your time. This will make for a terrific article.

RSJ: It was my pleasure.

CCJ: Are you up for another discussion in a week or two?

RSJ: If you don't mind my long stories, sure. You can call almost anytime.

CCJ: Believe me, it's an honor for me. By the way, Art Heiden, your remember me talking about Art, Art wants to talk to you about Jack. Do you mind if I pass your number to him?

RSJ: Please do.

CCJ: Well, thanks again and have a good evening.

RSJ: You to.


I will post more of our discussions after I get it all transposed from the tapes.

My regards,

Widewing

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 07:39 AM
Well first off I suppose I must say that a lot more than just the usaac polished their planes. I know some lw units did as well for instance. But like anything else in modern life I suppose it was more productive to polish a smooth surface- or a plane without paint- than it is one with paint.

5mph becomes 10mph sort of thing.

Paint is fairly heavy- as was metioned. And these planes did take a lot of it to cover them.

Also camo is fairly usless at 30k from what I've read when you are a fighter. Either you see them or you didn't. Sun. clouds below, sun, nothing else up there and all that.

I mean all the fights I've read about didn't seem to really depend on anything other that spotting the guy than jumping him from the sun. Bomber crews knew where the bandits were at least 30 seconds before hand- for instance- which is more than enough time for fighters to evade.

Plus the germans had radar so they knew where the planes they were after were.

Anyways there is nowhere to hide at 30k so why do it when it costs performance?

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 08:11 AM
JEEZ that article rocked!!! that pilot said no plane could follow a jug in a zoom climb!! vertical was safe gettaway . jug could roll at LEAST as good as a fw190!!! the jug in FB is WAAAAAAAAAAAAY undermodelled !!!

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/p47-22.jpg 47|FC=

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 08:16 AM
So you don't get killed at 0altitude 0airspeed in a bombing raid 20 minutes before you take off?

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 08:27 AM
reddeth "that" pilot is Robert Johnson. He could do a lot of things in the jug outside of what other pilots could do with it. Including being the luckiest person alive.

He's the same guy who took umpteen cannon rounds to his disabled plane and flew it back to england.

Quite a guy but not exactly a benchmark for other pilots.

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 08:29 AM
dude. he said the jug could at least roll as fast as a fw190. im sure he wasnt breaking the laws of physics. if he could roll a jug as fast as a fw then anyone can.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/p47-22.jpg 47|FC=

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 08:48 AM
'Eh mebbe.

He also said he didn't use the wep except for kicks. He is a stud. The pinnacle p-47 stud for that matter. The michael jordon of p-47s if you will.

Gawd knows what else he did when he was comfortable in his environment.

Im sure he could make his planes sit up and bark if he wanted too. He was that good.

I agree the p-47 needs tweaking in game but don't go off of what Johnson could do in one.

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 08:50 AM
What's the big deal with this guy? How many kills did he get?

fluke39
08-12-2003, 09:05 AM
i think everything has been said as to the reasons why - however just to illustrate one of the main points - i couldn't resist another small scan from april 1944's Aircraft recognition /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/Warpaint.jpg>

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 09:06 AM
28 was his kill total I belive. Not much when you conpare it to the Hartmans of the world.

But the number rises in esteem if you look at things like how long his tour of duty was and some of the amazing sh%t he pulled off.

His book is still in print if you want to read about him.

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 09:08 AM
Mr.Krunchie wrote:
- 28 was his kill total I belive. Not much when you
- conpare it to the Hartmans of the world.


DAMNIT I WAS JUST GONNA DO THAT!

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 09:11 AM
Erp sorry.

I can edit it if you think I stole yer thunder. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 09:14 AM
nah, thats ok

LOL

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 09:14 AM
Salute

And about Bob Johnson. He got his 27 kills, (later upgraded to 28) in 90 missions, for a ratio of 1 kill per 3,2 missions.

Hartmann had over 1500 missions for his 352 kills. Not to take away from his accomplishements, but that would be 1 kill per approx. 4,25 missions.

Johnson made the most of his few opportunities.

He was forced to leave combat to go on a Victory Bond tour on May 8th 1944, (he was the first USAAF pilot to beat Eddie Rickenbacker's WWI record of 26 kills) and wasn't able to get back to Europe. If he had stayed, as he wanted too, and survived, he would likely have been the leading USAAF Ace.



Message Edited on 08/12/0308:19AM by RAF74BuzzsawXO

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 09:18 AM
don't forget Hartmann killed 6 P-51's!

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 09:36 AM
Mr.Krunchie wrote:
- 'Eh mebbe.
-
- He also said he didn't use the wep except for kicks.
- He is a stud. The pinnacle p-47 stud for that
- matter. The michael jordon of p-47s if you will.
-
-
- Gawd knows what else he did when he was comfortable
- in his environment.
-
- Im sure he could make his planes sit up and bark if
- he wanted too. He was that good.
-
- I agree the p-47 needs tweaking in game but don't go
- off of what Johnson could do in one.
-
-

I don't believe in Superman. Like RedDeth said, Johnson didn't and couldn't break the laws of physic. There is no "Michael Jordon of P-47s" I think. The P-47 itself would be the body of Michael Jordon, and the pilot is Jordon's brain who knows how to use its capabilities best. That's what this article is all about. Of course, there is no magic switch in the Jug that did that "rolling hammerhead stall" all automaticly. However, he was also talking about two simple things: Zoomclimb and rollrate. And it fits to all the other Thunderbolt pilot accounts. Note that the 4th didn't like the Jug. How could they, after they had been flying Spitfires? Those are two very different airplanes, and - simply talken - what works in the Spit will not work in the Jug and vice-versa. Johnson himself emphasises that in his interview, saying like "Know the strength of your a/c and fight in its realm".
BTW, this is the second time now I read the Fw190 could end up with a heavy elevator at high divespeeds. Maybe FB wasn't all that wrong in this regard. Well, I don't know. But I do know that in 08 the 190 had no compressibilty whatsoever regardless the speed, while this factor has been increased in almost all other planes. This allows the 190 to always escape when the enemy closes in on gunsrange in a high speed chase. Especially in the Jug this is a pain in the arse, even more than before. You might be able to dive with the 190, but only in your dreams will you be able to follow it as soon as it starts evasives. Doesn't exactly sound like Johnson repeatedly saying "We always caught up on them in a dive, and then we were all over them".



=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 09:37 AM
Yep but flying for ones country isn't a heavy weight fight. No satarting corners or set match. Not that I wouldn't want to see the top guys go against each other. But comparing them isn't very practical.

They just did their missions and then went home. A few of them wen't a wandering here and there to see if they could score a few extra marks. But mostly they just went home and then woke up and did it again.

Imagine this if you will. Hartman is leading a group against some bombers. Johnoson's is weaving a bit ahead of them.

Hartman and co attack. They strafe the bombers. The bombers put out a call for help. Then thunderbolts rip back and manage to engage.

A wild swirling furball erupts. Hartman scores. Johnson scores. Furball ends minutes later as the bombers are moving away and so is the lw.


Neither of the aces would of really saw each other as- well- neither of them would of made mistakes to be jumped on.



Heh, hows that for a scenario?



Is the patch out yet? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 09:54 AM
--------------------------------------------------------
I don't believe in Superman. Like RedDeth said, Johnson didn't and couldn't break the laws of physic. There is no "Michael Jordon of P-47s" I think. The P-47 itself would be the body of Michael Jordon, and the pilot is Jordon's brain who knows how to use its capabilities best. That's what this article is all about. Of course, there is no magic switch in the Jug that did that "rolling hammerhead stall" all automaticly. However, he was also talking about two simple things: Zoomclimb and rollrate. And it fits to all the other Thunderbolt pilot accounts. Note that the 4th didn't like the Jug. How could they, after they had been flying Spitfires? Those are two very different airplanes, and - simply talken - what works in the Spit will not work in the Jug and vice-versa. Johnson himself emphasises that in his interview, saying like "Know the strength of your a/c and fight in its realm".
BTW, this is the second time now I read the Fw190 could end up with a heavy elevator at high divespeeds. Maybe FB wasn't all that wrong in this regard. Well, I don't know. But I do know that in 08 the 190 had no compressibilty whatsoever regardless the speed, while this factor has been increased in almost all other planes. This allows the 190 to always escape when the enemy closes in on gunsrange in a high speed chase. Especially in the Jug this is a pain in the arse, even more than before. You might be able to dive with the 190, but only in your dreams will you be able to follow it as soon as it starts evasives. Doesn't exactly sound like Johnson repeatedly saying "We always caught up on them in a dive, and then we were all over them".

-----------------------------------------------------------

Nah. Some people scream on roller coasters, others raise their hands and whoop. Some others get sick. Still others give a big hook 'um horns and get caught on tape with a big smile on their faces and a dirty look in their eyes.

Same thin with pilots imo, Who knows who is going to give the hook 'um horns and who is just going to raise their arms? Nobody imo.


Anyways you made a good point about fw's compressing. Which is interesting as towards this whole thread as paint might 'cause enough friction to stick aielrons and what not.

From what I heard stuck aielrons- or compressed ones- just needed a shock to them to unstick them.


Something to think about anyways.



/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



Message Edited on 08/12/0308:58AM by Mr.Krunchie

Tully__
08-12-2003, 10:10 AM
From what I've read on the topic:



-
- Advantages
- 1) No camo will lighten the aircraft (although
- negligible?)

Actually considerable weight saving, up to several hundred pounds on the bigger four engine bombers. This saving allows more range or more payload with the same fuel load, or alteratively more fuel to be carried (for even greater range) or higher cruise speeds.

- 2) It will make it more aerodynamical (some
- paintings, esp. early nightfighter's slowed down the
- plane a +/- 40kmh), the plane is frictionless

This depends on the build quality of the original surface. Some Mustangs had to have their wings filled and at least one coat of paint on the wings for best performance, as the rivets holding the wing panels on caused some disturbance in the airflow without this preparation.



-
- Disadvantages
- 1) The aircraft is like a shining star in the sky,
- very easily spotted - on the ground as well

In the sky this may not always have been a disadvantage. If your mission role is escort, your primary goal is to keep enemy fighters from intercepting your bombers. In this role, the sooner they see you, the sooner they get scared away /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


- 2) It can blind the pilot for a moment, from the
- reflected sun rays on wings etc.

You often see aircraft that are mostly polished but with mat black on the cowling top and upper wings for glare reduction.



Apart from that it seems you have the basic idea.

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Salut
Tully


Message Edited on 08/12/0307:13PM by Tully__

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 10:13 AM
Heart_C wrote:

- BTW, this is the second time now I read the Fw190
- could end up with a heavy elevator at high
- divespeeds. Maybe FB wasn't all that wrong in this
- regard.

In the book "Kurt Tank Focke Wulfs designer and test pilot" by Wolfgang Wagner the following can be read.

"The first time Kurt Tank flew the D-9 he reached 955km/h true airspeed during a dive(700IAS), the load factor from the pull up was 7G. The machine reamined unaffected - no flutter, no vibration, nothing flying off."

Heavy elevator or not, being able to pull 7G at 900+ seems to me that pull outs at high speed dives were no problem.

http://www.iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robban75/Dora-9-3.JPG


'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

Message Edited on 08/12/0309:14AM by robban75

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 10:50 AM
One thing :

I fully respect that pilot but keep in mind that it's an interview made in 1998. 54 years AFTER that happened.

The memories of that respectable guy (probably in the 80 years old) could be reasonably inaccurate and/or modified by over 50 years of buff about "How good we were and how much our plane were superior to the ones of the bad guys" (he went for a "ticket tour" remember).

Remember also that most of the pilots had hard times over europe and that most of the pilots regarded the jugs as an heavy-weight dude with a lots of muscles. Not exactly a turn and burner.

Honnestly, I have no doubt about the climbing/diving capabilities of the P47. But for rolling as fast as a FW190, I've got some concerns... Technically, that do not seems possible...

Damn... Up to 600 P47 in a single Ramrod.
Talk about balancing teams in online dogfight. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



A+

WR-Benji

609th Squadron WEST RIDERS
http://609thwestriding.com

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 11:22 AM
Na that would be 'bout 60 something at the time of the enterview benji. And trust me the units protecting the mighty eighth havent sex'd any thing up with time.

Crew members breaking down on runways in crying jags, pilots short circuiting their heaters by peeing on their leg and jumping cause they thought they were shot and laughing about it afterwards.

Etc.

They were men.

Anyways before this gets out of hand. The p-47 is a better than it is in game. How much better? Heck I don't know but better than you think it is. And more than a match for the fw. Again and again.

Which it currently isn't.

Meh- again dont ask me- I'm just playing a game atm. Just don't judge a plane by its extreme pilots. But don't wholly discount them either.


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 11:33 AM
Mr.Krunchie wrote:

-
- Nah. Some people scream on roller coasters, others
- raise their hands and whoop. Some others get sick.
- Still others give a big hook 'um horns and get
- caught on tape with a big smile on their faces and a
- dirty look in their eyes.
-
- Same thin with pilots imo, Who knows who is going
- to give the hook 'um horns and who is just going to
- raise their arms? Nobody imo.
-
-

I will repeat only two words of my post: Zoomclimb. Rollrate. We are not talking air sickness or G tolerance of individuals.

And about rollrate being as good as the one of the 190: Well, indeed I neither do buy this one. But the fact that he thinks it is the same and recalls never did a 190 outroll (use the roll effective enough against) him indicates that the difference was small - or let's just say - nothing like it is in FB. If this was the real thing, he sure enough would remember it, even after 50 years. Simply because he would never have been able to stick to a 190 which engages in rolling maneuvers, e.g. a Split-S or normal dive with a following roll and pull out into an escape direction.

Regards
heartc



=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 11:59 AM
Granted.

I also think that the "live" P47 packed more punch than the bulky lump of steel in FB.
I just doubted the rolling abilities described in the interview. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

A+

WR-Benji

609th Squadron WEST RIDERS
http://609thwestriding.com

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 01:49 PM
jilli wrote:
- In modern times, it has been found that a smooth
- surface does not necessarily reduce drag. A thin,
- turbulent film over the surface makes the transition
- from zero airsped relative to the surface to full
- slipstream much less resistive. The seemingly rough
- surface quality of Mig 29:s was scoffed at umtil it
- was found that it reduced the overall friction quite
- a bit.

The airspeed at the surface is always zero. The transition from zero airspeed to 95% freestream velocity is what defines the boundary layer, the profile and thickness of which will vary a lot depending on design and location.

You misread about the MiG-29. The finish is indeed very rough - but not everywhere. The Russian engineers had a very good idea about where on the aircraft laminar flow was needed. In those areas, the finish is top notch. Filler used and rivets sanded down. But why pay for that finish where it is not needed?

- Today you have a virtual "sharkskin" frenzy
- out there applying this to boats, a/c and even
- swimwear!

The sharkskin is meant to reenergize the boundary layer by inducing turbulence and pulling down high-energy flow, just like vortex generators on aircraft. Obviously not usable in laminar flow regions.

Cheers,
Fred

No sig as of now, as people apparently can't handle reality without creating too much trouble for the poor mods.

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 01:50 PM
Hey Buzzsaw...great post!!!!

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

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XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 01:54 PM
A good coat of paint can affect the aircrafts performance to such a degree that all USAF planes are weighed and balance/momentum checked after each paint job. It's a very exacting process... can't even have any doors open or fans running or anything during the actual reading of the scale numbers.


SSgt Tim Schuster
8MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, Korea

-Defend the Forums!
-Accept Follow-on Patches and stuff!
-Take the Fight Online!

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 03:43 PM
Very interesting interview, Buzzsaw !

P-47 fans may use a quote from this interview in their forum
sigs. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- CCJ: So, you would get the advantage no matter what,
- if the German also pulled up into a vertical climb.
- What if he didn't follow?
-
- RSJ: Then he would just fly by. If he still wanted
- to fight, he could extend out and turn around, but I
- would be waiting for him.
- If he turned either left or right, I would be on him
- in a few seconds.
-
- CCJ: The smart Germans just kept on going when you
- pulled up.
-
- RSJ: I never ran across one smart enough to keep
- going. They all tried to follow.


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif LOL

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 04:36 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- I've seen with the b17s after painting they weighted
- 1100lbs more, the lead based enamels they used were
- so heavy back then.
-
-
-
-
-
- http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif
-
- Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't.
- (c) Leadspitter
-
-

Hmm that WW2 paint must clearly have been overmodelled, since the paint used on a 747 today is about 250 kgs or approx 500lbs (atleast what they said at Discovery channel, haven´t checked myself /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )