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Blutarski2004
06-10-2004, 04:31 PM
I've been doing a little geometry work and discovered some interesting aspects regarding dispersion patterns of point converged wing mounted guns at ranges outside the exact convergence distance .

Take a 6-gun P51D for example. The distance between the outermost left and right guns is just about 16 feet, with the neighboring inner guns of each wing separated from each another by about 10 inches. To keep things simple, we'll assume two 4 mil (75 pct of bullets according to USAF) cones, with the origin points spaced 16 feet laterally and the bases converging upon one another at 333 yards (1000 feet) point convergence.

At 250 yds, the two 4 mil cones are next to one another with their circumferences touching. Think of a figure eight on its side, about 6 feet wide and 3 feet tall.

From 250 yards the individual dispersion disks slowly grow in diameter and merge together until they form a single 4 foot diameter dispersion disk at 333 yards. At that point the center lines of the cones of fire cross and begin to laterally diverge. At about 425 yards, the 4 mil cones of dispersion have exchanged sides and create another horizontal figure eight pattern, this time about 10 feet wide and 5 feet high.

The total distance between the two figure eight patterns is about 180 yards. I would venture to say that the middle half of this zone, about 90 yards deep in range, where the two circles at least half overlap one another must be a very lethal place to be be.

So..... what am I saying? If the guns of your P51 are point converged at 333 yards and you are shooting at a target about 275 yards range, you are delivering the 75 pct of the bullets from 6 x 50cals (108 rounds for a 2 sec burst) in an area of fire about 6 feet wide by 4 feet tall - four or five bullets per square foot (or about 48 bullets per square meter).

Actually pretty cool when you do the math. It would be even cooler if someone with some 3D modelling s/ware could produce a grpahic representation. Any takers?

BLUTARSKI

Blutarski2004
06-10-2004, 04:31 PM
I've been doing a little geometry work and discovered some interesting aspects regarding dispersion patterns of point converged wing mounted guns at ranges outside the exact convergence distance .

Take a 6-gun P51D for example. The distance between the outermost left and right guns is just about 16 feet, with the neighboring inner guns of each wing separated from each another by about 10 inches. To keep things simple, we'll assume two 4 mil (75 pct of bullets according to USAF) cones, with the origin points spaced 16 feet laterally and the bases converging upon one another at 333 yards (1000 feet) point convergence.

At 250 yds, the two 4 mil cones are next to one another with their circumferences touching. Think of a figure eight on its side, about 6 feet wide and 3 feet tall.

From 250 yards the individual dispersion disks slowly grow in diameter and merge together until they form a single 4 foot diameter dispersion disk at 333 yards. At that point the center lines of the cones of fire cross and begin to laterally diverge. At about 425 yards, the 4 mil cones of dispersion have exchanged sides and create another horizontal figure eight pattern, this time about 10 feet wide and 5 feet high.

The total distance between the two figure eight patterns is about 180 yards. I would venture to say that the middle half of this zone, about 90 yards deep in range, where the two circles at least half overlap one another must be a very lethal place to be be.

So..... what am I saying? If the guns of your P51 are point converged at 333 yards and you are shooting at a target about 275 yards range, you are delivering the 75 pct of the bullets from 6 x 50cals (108 rounds for a 2 sec burst) in an area of fire about 6 feet wide by 4 feet tall - four or five bullets per square foot (or about 48 bullets per square meter).

Actually pretty cool when you do the math. It would be even cooler if someone with some 3D modelling s/ware could produce a grpahic representation. Any takers?

BLUTARSKI

Korolov
06-10-2004, 04:37 PM
Maybe... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

PlaneEater
06-10-2004, 04:48 PM
Now if we can only get it to work like that in the game, too. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Any luck scanning that manual, Blutarski?

Blutarski2004
06-10-2004, 05:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PlaneEater:
Now if we can only get it to work like that in the game, too. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Any luck scanning that manual, Blutarski?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes - 28pgs. Send me your e-mail address.

BLUTARSKI

WWMaxGunz
06-10-2004, 06:34 PM
I read about harmonizing wing guns and how some units had each gun set to points around
the aiming point itself. There would have been no need for that with scatterguns.


Neal

VMF513_Sandman
06-10-2004, 07:59 PM
the above does sound like a huge shotgun, but what about guns that wasnt spread so far apart. and the distances between each gun was under a foot like the way the p-38's are. wouldnt have the figure 8 pattern with that. in comparision to wing guns, the 38's might as well had 50 caliber lasers if they were mounted to shoot straight out. in fb, the shells are wide enough to dam near spray half of a destroyer instead of shells grouping into a 30" circle that would be instant death to anything in it.

Diablo310th
06-11-2004, 01:54 PM
Any word on whether or not patch 2.02 fixed this???

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/Diablos20Sig.jpg

609IAP_Recon
06-11-2004, 03:26 PM
no change in .50's

check your convergence

Salute!

IV/JG51_Recon

http://www.forgottenskies.com/jg51sig2.jpg

WWMaxGunz
06-11-2004, 03:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF513_Sandman:
the above does sound like a huge shotgun, but what about guns that wasnt spread so far apart. and the distances between each gun was under a foot like the way the p-38's are. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, it was something done with wing guns by at least both Brit and US units and for the
pilots who were not marksmen. A green pilot, even some veterans could get more hits that
way at the expense of pinpoint-typ lethality. Not all units did it, not all pilots in
them had it if they were good and had clout.

Do the same with a P-38 and you turn it into a short range shooter that's going to be
useless for strafing since you'd have to be pretty close before you started shooting,
well within range of MMG's and grouped squad rifles. I'm gonna strafe with 4 x.50's then
I'm going to start firing at 800 to 1000 so I can see where the rounds are impacting by
the time I'm closing in. I'm going to want to lay fire along a good length and not be
100m close at the end of it. Distance really shrinks at over 200mph, 200-300m ain't squat
when your target is standing still.


Neal

PlaneEater
06-12-2004, 07:37 PM
Blutarski: email them to snakebitt@mindspring.com

And you'll want to send them to Oleg, too. il2beta@1c.ru

Blutarski2004
06-14-2004, 09:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PlaneEater:
Blutarski: email them to snakebitt@mindspring.com

And you'll want to send them to Oleg, too. il2beta@1c.ru<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Check your e-mail.

BLUTARSKI