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kyrule2
12-25-2003, 11:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BS87:
Well were at it, maybe you guys could give me some tips. WHat do you usualy set the prop pitch to? Radiator? throttle? etc? thanks guys. Any gunnery tips woul also be greatly appreciated.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BS87, here are a few tips.

-As far as gunnery goes, make sure to use the rudder for last second corrections or to swing your nose to the side for a snap shot because you will be making alot of high speed passes. I CAN'T emphasize this enough as this is often overlooked.

-I keep prop pitch at 100% all of the time for maximum performance. The difference in max speed and in climb are significant.

-I keep radiator set to "auto" most of the time. I'll "close" it if I need to escape or quickly catch an opponent at maximum speed, or if I simply need MAX performance (even in climb). I leave my radiator set to "open" when cruising around searching for opponents, no need to build unnecessary heat.

-As far as throttle goes remember this; Less Throttle = More Forgiveness. I usually keep my throttle pinned during combat, but I'll shut it down a little in extreme dives to cool my BMW/Jumo a little. Also, when performing Hammerheads I back it down quite a bit as the newly modelled engine torque will swing you around a little at the peak of your maneuver. I find that decreasing throttle at the VERY PEAK will make your "flip over" and transition much easier. This includes your hard pull-up (if needed to line up your shot on the now dead in the water pursuer) when you are rapidly accelerating after your hammerhead. Again, less throttle = more forgiveness.

-Don't fly around at 110% throttle when stalking for opponents. Again, no need for unecessary heat.

-Flaps can give you a little boost in turning but I only use this in an emergency or when your opponent is wounded or being lazy. Sometimes flaps can also help in vertical maneuvers as far as stability is concerned. You can perform them quicker and suprise your opponent, but you will bleed much more speed.

-As you may have seen 100 times, don't turn & burn when flying the 190 (usually). Keep your speed very high and grab for altitude like it was money hanging on a tree at the welfare office. You can always trade speed for altitude but when you bleed energy it's gone. After the merge I almost always go straight vertical, just don't do it too soon or you butt will be perforated. Fight in the vetical often when there are fewer combatants, and use hit & run tactics with use of gentle combat turns when your energy advantage is high or there are numerous combatants.

-Use the 190's excellent all-around vision in full-difficulty servers. You may not be able to see out of the front but otherwise your vission is very good. Keep your eyes peeled, the 190 is an excellent stalker with good speed and excellent firepower.

-Head-ons are somewhat acceptable in the 190A, you have excellent firepower with a good spread and a tough radial engine.

-Use your superior roll-rate when caught at a disadvantage. A turn in one direction followed by a diving turn in the opposite direction can be very difficult to follow. You can also go into an extreme dive (don't dive straight and level) and do a quick half roll and hard pull-out at low level. Most planes cannot follow this maneuver and I have used it successfully many times. Either your opponent will have inferior roll which will not allow him to perform the half-roll at the end, or he will not have the elevator response to pull out in time. The 190 has great elevator response, rolls very fast, and use of the rudder can make it even faster (as with all planes). Use these advantages.

-The 190 dives fairly well and seems to accelerate quickly. Keep this in mind when performing maneuvers, offensive or defensive.

-Learn high speed gunnery, it differs from slower turn & burn type gunnery. In t&b you make alot of very high deflection shots and fire alot when turning at steep angles of attack. In high speed gunnery you will find you need to anticipate further ahead where your opponent will be. Try to predict where he will be when you arrive and make adjustments earlier instead of last second. Anticipation is important in 190 flying. I recommend setting up a QMB with you in an A5 or A-9 against some I-16's or Hurricanes. The difference in speed will teach you high speed gunnery if flown correctly. Fly 4 vs 6 or something similar, as 1 vs 1 fights (not a strength of the 190) will result in you going in the vertical constantly. Learn to jump planes preoccupied with someone else.

-Which brings me to my last point. USE YOUR WINGMEN. This is very important to 190 flyers. The 190 is not a good 1 vs. 1 plane, it is an awesome 4 vs. 4 plane. Learn to pick off pursuers of wingmen and instruct other wingmen to do the same. With comms the 190 is awesome as your wingman can let you know when someone has broken pursuit, allowing you to become the pursuer.

I think that is about it for now. If anyone else has something to add please do. If anyone disagrees with me, feel free to express that as well.

Hope this helps.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

[This message was edited by kyrule2 on Thu December 25 2003 at 11:56 AM.]

kyrule2
12-25-2003, 11:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BS87:
Well were at it, maybe you guys could give me some tips. WHat do you usualy set the prop pitch to? Radiator? throttle? etc? thanks guys. Any gunnery tips woul also be greatly appreciated.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BS87, here are a few tips.

-As far as gunnery goes, make sure to use the rudder for last second corrections or to swing your nose to the side for a snap shot because you will be making alot of high speed passes. I CAN'T emphasize this enough as this is often overlooked.

-I keep prop pitch at 100% all of the time for maximum performance. The difference in max speed and in climb are significant.

-I keep radiator set to "auto" most of the time. I'll "close" it if I need to escape or quickly catch an opponent at maximum speed, or if I simply need MAX performance (even in climb). I leave my radiator set to "open" when cruising around searching for opponents, no need to build unnecessary heat.

-As far as throttle goes remember this; Less Throttle = More Forgiveness. I usually keep my throttle pinned during combat, but I'll shut it down a little in extreme dives to cool my BMW/Jumo a little. Also, when performing Hammerheads I back it down quite a bit as the newly modelled engine torque will swing you around a little at the peak of your maneuver. I find that decreasing throttle at the VERY PEAK will make your "flip over" and transition much easier. This includes your hard pull-up (if needed to line up your shot on the now dead in the water pursuer) when you are rapidly accelerating after your hammerhead. Again, less throttle = more forgiveness.

-Don't fly around at 110% throttle when stalking for opponents. Again, no need for unecessary heat.

-Flaps can give you a little boost in turning but I only use this in an emergency or when your opponent is wounded or being lazy. Sometimes flaps can also help in vertical maneuvers as far as stability is concerned. You can perform them quicker and suprise your opponent, but you will bleed much more speed.

-As you may have seen 100 times, don't turn & burn when flying the 190 (usually). Keep your speed very high and grab for altitude like it was money hanging on a tree at the welfare office. You can always trade speed for altitude but when you bleed energy it's gone. After the merge I almost always go straight vertical, just don't do it too soon or you butt will be perforated. Fight in the vetical often when there are fewer combatants, and use hit & run tactics with use of gentle combat turns when your energy advantage is high or there are numerous combatants.

-Use the 190's excellent all-around vision in full-difficulty servers. You may not be able to see out of the front but otherwise your vission is very good. Keep your eyes peeled, the 190 is an excellent stalker with good speed and excellent firepower.

-Head-ons are somewhat acceptable in the 190A, you have excellent firepower with a good spread and a tough radial engine.

-Use your superior roll-rate when caught at a disadvantage. A turn in one direction followed by a diving turn in the opposite direction can be very difficult to follow. You can also go into an extreme dive (don't dive straight and level) and do a quick half roll and hard pull-out at low level. Most planes cannot follow this maneuver and I have used it successfully many times. Either your opponent will have inferior roll which will not allow him to perform the half-roll at the end, or he will not have the elevator response to pull out in time. The 190 has great elevator response, rolls very fast, and use of the rudder can make it even faster (as with all planes). Use these advantages.

-The 190 dives fairly well and seems to accelerate quickly. Keep this in mind when performing maneuvers, offensive or defensive.

-Learn high speed gunnery, it differs from slower turn & burn type gunnery. In t&b you make alot of very high deflection shots and fire alot when turning at steep angles of attack. In high speed gunnery you will find you need to anticipate further ahead where your opponent will be. Try to predict where he will be when you arrive and make adjustments earlier instead of last second. Anticipation is important in 190 flying. I recommend setting up a QMB with you in an A5 or A-9 against some I-16's or Hurricanes. The difference in speed will teach you high speed gunnery if flown correctly. Fly 4 vs 6 or something similar, as 1 vs 1 fights (not a strength of the 190) will result in you going in the vertical constantly. Learn to jump planes preoccupied with someone else.

-Which brings me to my last point. USE YOUR WINGMEN. This is very important to 190 flyers. The 190 is not a good 1 vs. 1 plane, it is an awesome 4 vs. 4 plane. Learn to pick off pursuers of wingmen and instruct other wingmen to do the same. With comms the 190 is awesome as your wingman can let you know when someone has broken pursuit, allowing you to become the pursuer.

I think that is about it for now. If anyone else has something to add please do. If anyone disagrees with me, feel free to express that as well.

Hope this helps.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

[This message was edited by kyrule2 on Thu December 25 2003 at 11:56 AM.]

boohaa
12-25-2003, 12:10 PM
Thanks for the chriustmas gift Kyrulehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I agree wit all you said and heres my christmas tip.Take your feet off the rudder pedals for a day or two.This will train you to rely more on the angle of bank to line up a shot.Then when you go back to using the rudders for that last((second)) adjustment you are in a much better position.

TX-Zen
12-25-2003, 12:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kyrule2:



-I keep prop pitch at 100% all of the time for maximum performance. The difference in max speed and in climb are significant. I believe the 190D-9(Dora, Long nose) performs better using "auto" prop-pitch whereas the 190A's (Antons) perform better with manual (namely 100% prop-pitch).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Most excellent points Kyrule, this is a wondeful synopsis of the more important aspects of fly the FW series. I must agree especially on pointing out the use of rudder and keeping the engine cool. Both are very important.

The Dora performs significantly better on manual pitch also...RPM goes up to 3500 and the plane benefits from an impressive performance boost compared to it's usual 3200RPM. Manual prop pitch is somewhat tricky on the Dora compared to the Antons, the Dora will overrev in a dive much faster than the A series.


Very informative post!

TX-Zen
Black 6
TX-Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM Only)
http://www.txsquadron.com/library/20031218144359_Zensig2.jpg (http://www.txsquadron.com)

kyrule2
12-25-2003, 12:55 PM
Thanks for the compliments, and thanks for the heads up on the Dora Tx-Zen (I modified my original post). I could have swore in previous versions that the Dora reached higher speeds on auto. I fly Antons until my eyes bleed, the Dora I fly occasionaly but I am starting to fall in love with that too. When the Ta-152 arrives, I will be in heaven.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

AirBot
12-25-2003, 02:03 PM
Thanks kyrule2, always happy to get some tips from the experts! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BS87
12-25-2003, 03:56 PM
Thanks Kyrule! These tips should help me alot I appreciate this greatly.

TX-Zen
12-25-2003, 04:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kyrule2:
Thanks for the compliments, and thanks for the heads up on the Dora Tx-Zen (I modified my original post). I could have swore in previous versions that the Dora reached higher speeds on auto. I fly Antons until my eyes bleed, the Dora I fly occasionaly but I am starting to fall in love with that too. When the Ta-152 arrives, I will be in heaven.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TY also http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The top speed is about 5kph higher on auto vs manual, but the acceleration and climb rate is much lower on auto vs manual, so the trade off of 5kph on auto compared to what you get on manual is more than worth it. Plus, as you mentioned if you need raw speed, close the radiator and go to auto once your speed steadies out and you'll get somewhere in the neighborhood of 583-590kph at SL.

When the TA comes, uber or not, that is more than likely the only plane I will ever fly again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Been in love with the long noses since I was a kid (though the A5 is still very near to my heart) and I've always felt the TA to be the most beautiful plane ever built.

If you're interested in fencing as opposed to using a great sword, try the Dora. She's light, agile and precise but as you've probably already seen requires excellent marksmanship to succeed with. In my opinion, it's the best mustang killer out there.



I think the only thing I want to add about using the FW series is the effectiveness of the scissors if you find yourself in a bad spot.
Because of that superb roll rate, you actually have a series defensive trick up your sleeve.

Use it with combat flaps because they increase stability and stall control, but don't be shy about stick force...just use caution when entering the flat turn but after the nose begins to move increase the force to generate serious G forces. Snap roll the opposite direction and pull into the new turn. Take care to avoid flying back and forth in the same plane of motion, use high and low turns to cross his gunsight in an unpredictable manner. I usually continue the turn until I see that he has made a second or two with me, then reverse. When he commits his nose again, I reverse and repeat until we are coming back at each other nearly head on again. From there you hopefully you are back in a relatively neutral position and can continue the fight from there.

I must emphasise flying the scissors takes practice and a steady hand on the stick and you really need to be very familar with the stall characteristics of the plane and how to ride the edge. It also requires a good SA on the bandit's position and manuevering but thankfully the FW series has that impressive all around visibility. Things like this make up somewhat for the poor forward view.

Last note on prop pitch, I really haven't seen any reason to use settings other than 100% manual or auto...I've not noticed any change in performance with anything else.


TX-Zen
Black 6
TX-Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM Only)
http://www.txsquadron.com/library/20031218144359_Zensig2.jpg (http://www.txsquadron.com)

[This message was edited by TX-Zen on Thu December 25 2003 at 03:49 PM.]

kyrule2
12-25-2003, 04:46 PM
TX-Zen, good stuff. I will really go hard at the Dora now knowing that climb and acceleration are better on manual (glad I'm not losing it when I got a higher top speed on "auto", and I got the same numbers you did).

I have just recently started flying the Dora consistently (like Kurt Tank I was turned off by the inline Jumo http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) and decreased firepower, but now I can't get enough of it. It's the coolest sounding prop plane in the game IMHO. The handling of the Dora has always been sweet, and with the degradation of the A-8's and A-9's handling in 1.21 I found myself flying the Dora more and more. I'm having to adjust to getting away with stuff I previously could not http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. I still love my A-9 though, can't beat it's one pass killing power and it's ability to bring down heavy bombers and attack planes. That's the beauty of the 190, it's versatility. It did everything well (fighter, fighter/bomber, bomber interceptor) and had the development potential for more specialised versions like the 190A-8 Sturm (bomber destroyer), 190D-9 (fighter/interceptor performing better at high altitude)and even more-so the Ta-152 (high altitude interceptor with incredible performance). Gotta love the Fock Wulf. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

TX-Zen
12-25-2003, 04:56 PM
I absolutely agree about the sound of the Dora...there is nothing that sounds as awesome when roaring at 3500RPM in a sustained climb. That engine sounds just plain mean http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


It would be nice if they added the A8-Sturm and some of the other variants like the A6 or the G series and expanded on the weapon loadouts like the PanzerBlits rockets etc.


All in all, I think the Dora has the best handling of the entire series, she is precise and controllable and responds very well. When the TA finally comes, I shudder to think of what it's capable of. As I've said in other posts, for those of us who have been flying the series since the early days, it will be a day we've all earned http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TX-Zen
Black 6
TX-Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM Only)
http://www.txsquadron.com/library/20031218144359_Zensig2.jpg (http://www.txsquadron.com)

BS87
12-25-2003, 07:38 PM
I just want to see the Ta so i cant watch the boards be flooded with "NERF TEH TA! IT IS TEH UBENR!!! NOOOB PLANE SO EASY TO LFY IT IS TOO POWERFUL!!!!:!:!!"

FW190fan
12-25-2003, 09:42 PM
Ah, yes TX-Zen - I call those rolling scissors with varied extensions.

What I've been doing lately is when it's time to change direction at the end of an extension I will do a full 360 deg aileron roll similar to a vector roll(turn in opposite direction of initial roll)

I also fly at 100% prop pitch and typically set my rad to position 2 in combat. Only in a real emergency do I close it.

When you fly a Focke-Wulf you should fly like a hunter, stealthily stalking your prey. Don't run in yanking and banking with guns blazing.


http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-G2-33s_small.jpg

GoodKn1ght
12-25-2003, 09:58 PM
I fly the 190 a lot now, all models except the a4 (can you say PIG?).
Is it just me or does it seem like you can get a faster max speed in level at 85% pitch? maybe its just accelerating faster, ive never tested it. Once i learned manual on the 109s i started using it on all planes and assumed the advantage was significant.

I close my radiator on takeoff until i climb to altitude then i open it. Might as well harnass all the energy possible. I also noticed you can go a good while with the "overheat warning" and nothing will happen- much more forgiving than the 109s.

I ALWAYS run the plane with boost on and NEVER turn it off.

These are all great tips, i dont have much more to add. I figured out the rudder trick to keep planes in view for high speed passes on my own and boy is this important. Id also recommend inverting your plane in certain situations(or turning INTO the enemies turn for a quick pepper). (of course this applies to FR, arcade is a breeze http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) but id recommend flying no cockpit till you get the hang of it first.

1 last thing and that is the convergence, i find 200 works miracles for me. The cool thing about the 190 is that the bullets have a shotgun quality, don't be afraid to just let it rip in those high speed passes. FIRE EARLY AND OFTEN. unless of course you are going after a single target and want to bounce him. But big dogfights, or if your opponent already knows you are there, what does it matter? I open fire at around 600 meters in a bnz.
The fw has PLENTY of ammo and even if you dont get a kill in one pass, you might damage a wing or f*ck up his aiming recticle or cockpit, you never know. Be generous with the awesome fire power of this bird, share the love.

I don't know about that scizzors maneuver zen, maybe you are just a better pilot than me. I havent had much success with it. If i use it, its usually just to throw off thier aim, not to turn the tables or anything. Forget about turning with most planes unless you have E on them (a lot of E) and even then its still pretty risky. Ive seen some people cut throttle and force an overshoot but i dont usually do that either. If i get in trouble i just hit the deck, floor it, jink like mad, and drag a few back into flak or friendly fighters or fly into a cloud. If you get an la7 or mustang on you, forget about scizzors or outrunning them, you are f*cked. lol unless they run out of ammo or just suck.

edit: ive also found that 103% is as high as you can run without overheat.

[This message was edited by GoodKn1ght on Thu December 25 2003 at 09:10 PM.]

GoodKn1ght
12-25-2003, 10:00 PM
what are you talking about "vector roll"? could you explain that a little more please?

FW190fan
12-25-2003, 10:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
what are you talking about "vector roll"? could you explain that a little more please?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
========================================

Sorry, I used to have a link to a physical diagram of a vector roll but now I can't find it. Perhaps someone else has a link?

Anyway, imagine yourself behind a Yak or a Lavochkin while flying the FW.

The Yak does a hard turn to the left that you can't follow for any sustained period of time in the higher wing-loaded Focke-Wulf.

What do you do?

One option is to use the FW's high cornering velocity, roll hard into the direction of the Yak's turn and hope to get a quick snap-shot in deflection. This is a valid tactic and one that I have used with success.

Another option is the "Vector Roll"

In this maneuver, instead of rolling in the same direction of the Yak's turn, you actually barrel roll in the opposite direction. By the time you have rolled ~270deg. you can pull back on the stick and if you've timed everything right - cut off the Yak's turn and make him a cannon induced ball of fire.

If only it were that easy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Vector rolls actually require alot of practice and go down in my book as an advanced maneuver.

Hope that made sense.


http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-G2-33s_small.jpg

kyrule2
12-25-2003, 10:30 PM
A few more points:

-Online, after taking off look for friendlies. If you are a "lone wolf" the 190 is NOT your plane.

-Look for the 109's. Focke Wulfs and 109's compliment each-other well. These two planes have different fighting styles and strengths and combining the two can only make both of you more effective. I fly with a few guys that prefer the 109 and we do quite well together.

-I like 200m convergence like Goodknight said. This really gives the the Dora a little more punch. For ground strafing I like 500m. When I have dual Mk.108's loaded I also increase convergence as it keeps the cannon rounds a little more steady and predictable, and only one is really needed. Also, the rounds don't come in towards eachother, which gives you a bigger "hitbox" and they seem to have a slightly better trajectory. For all others I use 200m. And as goodknight said, don't be shy with the ammo. You have alot and the 190 is a very stable gun platform. Just don't shoot too soon and alert your opponent.

To be honest I have never had the guts to try a scissors fight online. I prefer to try alternative evasive maneuvers as I can't seem to pull off the scissors well enough and the 190 doesn't seem to like quick transitions in the opposite direction. It is a risky maneuver to say the least and if I am caught low and slow (or just slow) then I have done something wrong up to that point. Still, I haven't practiced it enough to say how effective it is so who knows. Many may use it effectively, I just never practiced using this maneuver as I don't like to slow down for anything.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

BS87
12-25-2003, 11:08 PM
thanks guys, with all these tips, the 190 is flying alot better for me now,and i'm actually hitting stuff now. 1 Other question, do you guys have any tips for LAs? they are pretty much the only thing i can shake. They stick with me nomatter what, they just seem so... stable.

kyrule2
12-26-2003, 12:01 AM
BS87, I can't count how many times on this forum that I have said "as a 190 driver my only real concern is the La." Now I have to add the P-51 to that list as it is also a very worthy opponent. My original post spoke of a maneuver about diving towards the ground and reversing direction and pulling out at the last minute before hitting the ground. I made this comment with the La in mind for a few reasons:

-the La has inferior roll-rate, especially at high speeds.
-the La has inferior elevator response at high speeds.
-the La has an inferior critical dive limit.

You have to learn at what speed and altitude you can perform the maneuver at but 1000m (to quickly reverse and pull out hard, you can even start reversal before heading straight down) is a good starting point to gauge from. Unfortunately the AI disregards dive limits, blackouts, etc. so it doesn't always work against AI but it often does.

You can't out-run, out-turn, or out-climb the La so you have to try to use your superior roll rate in a jam. But even more importantly is to use your wingmen to help you. If you find yourself 1 vs. 1 against an La I would simply attempt to disengage and find friendlies if online. If offline, and you have no wingmen left it is pretty much a lost cause anyway so you may as well return to base and lick your wounds.

A couple of other suggestions is to:

-drag him high (around 5500-6000m) where your plane performs best and his falls off. If it's a P-51, drag him down low.

-Spot him before he spots you and get above him, then you have initiative and energy advantage which you should be able to force him to lose even more when he evades your attacks. If he turns hard to evade do not follow him, just break off and gain altitude. Now you just increased your energy advantage more. Don't force any shot, and don't bleed your all important energy.

-Finally, again at the merge go vertical and hammerhead (and I mean until you are at zero speed). Offline your opponent will often turn around to attack you bleeding his energy while you simply keep climbing and hammerhead down onto him. He will not have the energy to both turn and climb after you while you just climb. Now you have the energy advantage and you simply do as I said before. Force him to evade your attacks while you build more energy. This is the best way to defeat ace La's offline and works well online also. This does take alot of practice and patience however as it may require a few hammerheads, one after the other, to finally bleed him sufficiently.

Hope this helps.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

[This message was edited by kyrule2 on Thu December 25 2003 at 11:46 PM.]

BS87
12-26-2003, 12:14 AM
Everytime i try the Dive-roll-pull up trick online,the p51 usually hits the ground or loses massive amounts of energy, but the La7 pulls it no sweat, and comes out with the same amount or more Energy then i have, which leaves me a sitting duck.

Also, i'm not really sure what you mean by hammerhead. I think i know what that is, but could you explain it a litte bit just so i'm sure?

Thanks kyrule, your tips have helped me alot. I'm sawing wings off Hurricans left and right in QMB, but thats a big step from online.

kyrule2
12-26-2003, 12:40 AM
LOL, I love watching those P-51's become lawndarts. I'm glad that it is working for you if only against Mustangs. With practice you can perform it more efficiently and the La should not be able to follow. The AI has exaggerated flight models so it can be tough. You shouldn't be a sitting duck though after the maneuver even if they manage to follow it somehow (which they shouldn't) as they should bleed or gain the same amount of energy you do, but again the AI ignores most limitations so who knows.

A hammerhead is simply performed by climbing straight up (or close to it) until you reach a stall (zero speed or even heading backwards for a moment) and gravity forces your nose heavy plane to flip over and start heading downward again. As I mentioned I recommend shutting down the throttle quite a bit at the very peak of the maneuver as the torque of the engine can twist and throw your plane around while its hanging there, making your transition rough and ineffective.

If you find that you did not head straight up and feel that you are sarting to "go over" while you still have speed you can do a quarter aeileron roll (or until you are basically flying on your side [wings at 90 degree angle with ground]) and apply full rudder towards the sky. This will force your nose back towards the sky and make you sort of "hang and slide" until you run out of speed/energy, therefore maximizing your hammerhead.

It's hard to explain but I hope you understand. If you don't let me know and I'll try to explain again. Basically if you find you didn't go straight up and that you are starting to fall back down/go over with speed left immediately;

-quickly roll until you are flying on your side.
-apply full rudder towards the sky (forcing nose back up)
-hang and slide until you run out of energy/speed
-then center rudder or even apply very briefly in opposite direction as your going over to get you heading downward quickly and smoothly.

But it is much easier to just head straight up. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Just make sure nobody else is around to catch you when you are vulnerable. As I said, using the hammerhead is much more effective in low combatant encounters, or when you are absolutely above everyone else and have a good energy advantage.

Hope this helps.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

TX-Zen
12-26-2003, 02:10 AM
Goodkn1te and Kyrule as for the scissors, practice it. Get aggressive when you do it, do it online against the LA7's and the Mustangs and do it all out. You will certainly crash, you will certainly screw up in the beginning and end up getting killed.

But with practice comes perfection. I am not the best stick and rudder man by any means but I can tell you with the utmost sincerity that it does work -- especially against the LA7 and Mustang. Those are the two planes I was forced to learn it against. The advantage is there but you must practice and practice hard to find that edge that allows you to be successful doing it.

I definately think that with proper tactics you should never be in a position where you have to use it, but on the other hand 'the best laid plans of mice and men' and all that...you will at some point find yourself at a disadvantage for one reason or another.

My enthusiasm for the maneuver is because it expands my options and helps me get out of the inevitable bad situations you get into over time. It allows me to engage opponents with more confidence and under a wider range of circumstances. Certainly it is foolish to take a D9 down on the deck and stall fight, I definately do not recommend it to anyone. But I do not subscribe to the philosophy that the FW series is a pure BnZ aircraft. They are not, they are extremely versatile, in particular the D9. Stall fighting is a great way to learn the limits of your plane, by force it teaches you more about that fine line of performance. We've all spent months and years learning the various versions we fly...we learned how to use prop pitch, find the optimal climb rate, learned when the engine finally cooks from overheat, what convergence to use etc. Stall fighting is an area that is important not to overlook because there are lessons to be learned.

Don't get me wrong, I am a dedicated E fighter by trade. Call me a sneaking bastard if you will, but it doesn't matter. As fellow FW drivers you definately know the best ways to fly the plane...sometimes the other guy doesn't like it or thinks it's chicken shat, but again it doesn't matter. The object of any contest is victory (hopefully yours) and so you fly your plane to your strengths and use it against his weaknesses. You force him to fly your way. But it's invigorating to say the least to take a stall fighter on in his own arena...and have a fair chance of success. It makes you that much better whether you win, lose or draw and it does something else, it increases your confidence so that you are able to fight aggressively and never feel that you are in a no win situation.

Limiting oneself to only BnZ removes some of the already limited options that you have. To say a FW cannot stall fight is slightly off the mark, though it is a commonly held opinion. It is not the best stall fighter but if flown properly can be extremely competitive and knowing how to do that extends your range of options, gives you a wider ranged field to ply your trade and makes you more dangerous.

I personally never enter into a protracted turn fight with anyone and definately try to avoid it as much as possible. Life is not always perfect naturally and there will come a time when you are not in your element but his. Knowing how to first avoid being shot down and second how to work your way out of that tight spot is extremely important.

FW drivers I think tend to be a more calculating bunch than perhaps other types are because they have to be. But they also seem to flounder somewhat when cornered on the deck against a stall fighter and sometimes it seems that they are resigned to their fate. I say take advantage of that calculating mentality and use it to understand the dynamics of flying in conditions the plane is not optimized for and that you are uncomfortable with.

Sorry for the long post and definately please understand that I make my comments without meaning to sound as though I am an uber FW driver who is better than all the rest. It's just that the plane is amazing well modelled now and if you can find that subtle edge of performance, there's really nothing that it can't do well.

I completely and totally stand by the scissors manuever...I've seen it work on a regular basis and feel that it is worth investigating. The joy of the series (besides the mystique, it's dashing good looks and the sense of immersion when flying it) is the challenge of mastering it. While I still have a long way to go, flying it has taught me more about air combat tactics than any other aspect of the game or any other plane type has. Seems like almost everyday I learn something new about it and that is a big reason why I enjoy it so much, other than the obvious reason that any FW is a good FW.

S~~ gentlemen, I hope again that I didn't come off as cocky, I just wanted to elaborate a little on the mindset I have when I fly the plane in the interest of sharing something that may not be common knowledge.

TX-Zen
Black 6
TX-Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM Only)
http://www.txsquadron.com/library/20031218144359_Zensig2.jpg (http://www.txsquadron.com)

BS87
12-26-2003, 10:56 AM
Thanks guys, once again, great tips. Thanks for the explination on the hammerhead Kyrule, thats what i thoug ht it was, i just wanted to be sure. thanks guys!

kyrule2
12-26-2003, 12:17 PM
No problem BS87, glad to help.

TX-Zen, stop tooting your own horn you cocky *****! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'm just kidding Zen, you don't come off cocky at all and I appreciate the post. I'll spend some time practicing the scissors offline, starting with the Dora as the Antons stall out much more easily in direction transitions.

Thanks to all for their contributions. If anyone has more to add please do. If anyone disagrees with what is posted here, please let us know. If anyone has any questions, just ask.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

TX-Zen
12-26-2003, 01:54 PM
S~!!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TX-Zen
Black 6
TX-Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM Only)
http://www.txsquadron.com/library/20031218144359_Zensig2.jpg (http://www.txsquadron.com)

StellarRat
12-26-2003, 02:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BS87:
Everytime i try the Dive-roll-pull up trick online,the p51 usually hits the ground or loses massive amounts of energy, but the La7 pulls it no sweat, and comes out with the same amount or more Energy then i have, which leaves me a sitting duck.

Also, i'm not really sure what you mean by hammerhead. I think i know what that is, but could you explain it a litte bit just so i'm sure?

Thanks kyrule, your tips have helped me alot. I'm sawing wings off Hurricans left and right in QMB, but thats a big step from online.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I highly recommend checking to make sure no one is above you before doing any hammerheads unless you want up end being swiss cheese for some P-47 pilot. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

kyrule2
12-26-2003, 03:05 PM
StellarRat, that is why I included this paragraph a few posts back. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"But it is much easier to just head straight up. Just make sure nobody else is around to catch you when you are vulnerable. As I said, using the hammerhead is much more effective in low combatant encounters, or when you are absolutely above everyone else and have a good energy advantage."

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

GoodKn1ght
12-26-2003, 03:10 PM
so zen, you have honestly forced a headon with an la when he was previously on your six? i didnt know that was possible ill look into it. Are you sure you were online and the la pilot was not a beginner? i can see you might be able to do it with the d9, but the a series? i just dont know.

thanks for explaining the vector roll ill have to try that too, i usually just climb when those uber-turners (yak la) break hard.

TX-Zen
12-26-2003, 04:31 PM
Goodkn1ght,

Yes, I have worked back to a head to head against an La7 while flying the D9 and have escaped a number of La7's in an A5 doing the scissors. It is entirely possible. I execute the move every time I get bounced in a very unfavorable situation against whoever that may be at the moment. Sometimes it's an La7, sometimes a mustang, sometimes it's something else. Most of the time I survive for whatever thats worth, so I stand behind the scissors.

The question to me is not so much is it possible to do it though, it's more along the lines of will the bandit stay committed in a scissors long enough to do it. But if he does not and breaks off to regain his composure...you have achieved a measure of success right there. At the least you have avoided being shot down and have a little more time to figure out what to do next. All dogfights are evolutionary things, they start one way and end up as something else and change in the middle too. Same thing with scissoring...it is rare that you stay in the manuever long enough to come back head to head, some other chance to extend or regain the advantage will come up, the bandit or you will make a mistake, another fighter shows up etc etc. It has it's time and place in a dogfight just as any other manuever does.


I also do not say that it is a magical trick that will end all your woes and catapult you to freedom. You still have a relatively low E state to contend with even if you get back nose to nose. You are risking a stall which has unpleasant results when you are fighting for every second of angular advantage and he may simply out fly you ofcourse, there is always someone out there that has your number on any given day.

But it's a far better defense than most things I think...it generates large amounts of angle off nose which helps to reduce or eliminate his gun attack, it creates unpredictbility which increases the likelyhood of the bandit losing SA or making a mistake, it forces the other pilot to fly in a manner that he is probably not familar with and he risks stalling out as well. It makes it very difficult for the bandit to saddle up for the kill shot, he may get you in a snap shot but he won't have time to track you easily.

Doing it aggressively shows the bandit something important, that you are willing to fight, that you know what you are doing and that he has no room for error also.

In effect you are upping the stakes when you execute it. You are making a statement 'Are you good enough to catch me?'...because you are going into a tougher edge of the FM that has consequences for both the attacker and defender. It's partly a kind of psycological warfare as well because you are telling the bandit he is going to have to work his behind off to get you and that you are waiting for him to make a mistake so you can pounce on him, not waiting for him to shoot you down.

If it sounds like I live in a fantasy world, well ofcourse I do, I play a flight sim everynight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Nonetheless, these tactics do work. I don't gaurantee them to work 100% of the time because everything comes down to the details of the moment, but my personal success with them has given me reason to believe that they are a generally effective tactic against a wide range of planes. As I said earlier, I am not that great on the stick, lots of people can outfly me 1 on 1, but I do know the FW series and have done decently with them.

So as I mentioned, try it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Just go for it and practice it til you are satisfied that either I'm full of shat or that it's something that will expand your bag of tricks. Either way hopefully you will enjoy the heck out of it, I find it exhilarating to say the least once I have stopped kicking myself for getting into trouble in the first place.

TX-Zen
Black 6
TX-Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM Only)
http://www.txsquadron.com/library/20031218144359_Zensig2.jpg (http://www.txsquadron.com)

GoodKn1ght
12-26-2003, 08:21 PM
excellent read, thanks. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
~S