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View Full Version : P-47 vs Ki-43.......did this guy use a cheat?



pinche_bolillo
12-26-2003, 03:01 PM
thomething I have often thought about was this, in the south west pacific theater during ww2 around the island of new guinea. there was a P-47 ace named kearby, 348th fg. now check this out. kearby was shot down and killed by a ki-43 while flying his P-47. now the ki-43 only had two nose mounted 12.7mm mgs. how did this japanese guy down a jug flown by an ace with 2 12.7mm mgs? that guy must have been cheating! think about it...its an amazing feat dont you think.

pinche_bolillo
12-26-2003, 03:01 PM
thomething I have often thought about was this, in the south west pacific theater during ww2 around the island of new guinea. there was a P-47 ace named kearby, 348th fg. now check this out. kearby was shot down and killed by a ki-43 while flying his P-47. now the ki-43 only had two nose mounted 12.7mm mgs. how did this japanese guy down a jug flown by an ace with 2 12.7mm mgs? that guy must have been cheating! think about it...its an amazing feat dont you think.

VW-IceFire
12-26-2003, 03:04 PM
I've done it against P-47's before with the Bf 109's machine guns. Lucky hit to the wing or a lucky shot to the engine and she's down.

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

pinche_bolillo
12-26-2003, 03:06 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I've done it against P-47's before with the Bf 109's machine guns. Lucky hit to the wing or a lucky shot to the engine and she's down.

what! your that japanese cheater arent you :O jk. man I am not speaking of the game, but real life. man that japanese guy must have been a sniper

F19_Olli72
12-26-2003, 03:09 PM
IIRC i read in Ryuji Nagatsuka's book "I Was a Kamikaze" they even attacked B-29 s with Ki-43s (im not 100% sure as it was a while i read it, a good book though wich i recommend)....so i guess anything is possible.

pinche_bolillo
12-26-2003, 03:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olli72:
IIRC i read in Ryuji Nagatsuka's book "I Was a Kamikaze" they even attacked B-29 s with Ki-43s (im not 100% sure as it was a while i read it, a good book though wich i recommend)....so i guess anything is possible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, but the picture I keep seeing in my head when I think of a ki 43 w/ 2 12.7mm mgs attacking any plane as sturdy as or sturdier than a P-47 is that of a little robbin I saw a few years back pecking at the tail of a 5' long black snake.

pourshot
12-26-2003, 03:18 PM
As good as the p47 is it only takes one bullet to kill a pilot

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/mybaby.jpeg.JPG
Ride It Like Ya Stole It

Menthol_moose
12-26-2003, 03:43 PM
pilots worst fear, the "golden BB"

Hanni8
12-26-2003, 03:53 PM
The Jug could take a punishment but was not a flying tank. The Pilots back armor was only proof against 0.30 cal. rounds. So the Jap-Pilot might very well have killed the Pilot with a single shot. Moreover the Jug Pilot was almost surrounded by immense quantities of fuel.

Menthol_moose
12-26-2003, 04:00 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Olli72:
IIRC i read in Ryuji Nagatsuka's book "I Was a Kamikaze" they even attacked B-29 s with Ki-43s (QUOTE]

I saw a docco on the history channel last night about this. The aircraft were removed of armour and guns to make them climb as fast as possible. Which only then offered one way of attack http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

F19_Olli72
12-26-2003, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Menthol_moose:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Olli72:
IIRC i read in Ryuji Nagatsuka's book "I Was a Kamikaze" they even attacked B-29 s with Ki-43s (QUOTE]

I saw a docco on the history channel last night about this. The aircraft were removed of armour and guns to make them climb as fast as possible. Which only then offered one way of attack http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nagatsuka (and his squad) attacked with the guns (regular Ki43's), it wasnt until the very end of the war he became a kamikaze (his only kamikaze mission was aborted cos they couldnt find the ships that were the targets, some of the pilots refused to turn back before the fuel reached the point of no return). I got to read it again to refresh my memory.

SkyChimp
12-26-2003, 04:43 PM
Kearby himself was hit. He bailed out and died on the ground. His body was recovered in 1947.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

pinche_bolillo
12-26-2003, 05:02 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SkyChimp:
Kearby himself was hit. He bailed out and died on the ground. His body was recovered in 1947.

_Regards,_
_SkyChimp_

wow, that japanese guy was a sniper!

LeadSpitter_
12-26-2003, 05:04 PM
the smaller cal is very under estimated in fb, 12 .303s on the hurrican mkiib.

I remember watching on dicovery wings over a year ago talking about the best aircraft gun of wwii which they awarded the 108 cannon, but they also showed the p47 using explosive .50 cal rounds which caused similair damage to some kind of armor sheets i dont remember the exact thickness,

the small cal should definatly have more crippling power

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Cajun76
12-26-2003, 07:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hanni8:
The Jug could take a punishment but was not a flying tank. The Pilots back armor was only proof against 0.30 cal. rounds. So the Jap-Pilot might very well have killed the Pilot with a single shot. Moreover the Jug Pilot was almost surrounded by immense quantities of fuel.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_rsj.html

So Robert S. Johnson died on June 26, 1943? Beacause his Jug took 3 20mm cannon shells to the armor, about an inch from his head.

Overall, Johnson's Jug had 21 20mm hits, and hundreds of MG rounds, all over the aircraft. If any fighter could be considered a flying tank, it would be the Jug. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

Meanwhile, in the 20th century:

BOOM! Yeah, Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my JUG!! It's has 8 .50cals and 2000lbs+ worth of bombs and rockets. Republic's top of the line. You can find this in the Kick A$$ department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Farmingdale, Long Island and Evansville, Indiana. Retails for about $82,997.95. It's got a turbo-supercharger, all metal control surfaces with blunt nosed ailerons, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop right, shop Republic. YOU GOT THAT!? Now I swear, the next one of you primates, E-ven TOUCHES me..... - Anonymous http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

p1ngu666
12-26-2003, 07:38 PM
:O

tttiger
12-26-2003, 09:40 PM
LS, with respect, the US never used an explosive .50 cal round. API was as good as it got. Look it up http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But I agree the .50s in FB are too puny. Anyone who has ever fired a real Ma Deuce knows how destructive they are.

As for the Ki-43, it remained in production through the end of the war. It was amazingly agile, even more nimble than the Zero, and US pilots said they had trouble killing it because it just danced all around their heavy B&Z machines. Speed isn't worth much if the enemy can easily Split-S out of your target solution, which is exactly what the Ki-43 drivers did.

S!

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

12-27-2003, 01:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If any fighter could be considered a flying tank, it would be the Jug.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If it could be considered a flying tank, it would have been called a flying tank.

Concentration of firepower, or, the power of the projectiles itself, is emphasized due to the fact that there is rarely a given chance to shoot at the target in ideal conditions. Most typically against maneuvering targets, nearly 90% of fired rounds can be expected to miss. In a blind lead situation, getting even a single hit is unlikely.

However, we know all too well that there are rare but distinct moments when ideal shooting chances come - when the pilot is caught off guard, or unaware of the second enemy plane approaching from behind.

It doesn't necessarily take a golden BB to knock out a plane, no matter how puny the gun is. All it needs is a good, clean firing solution. Rare, but good.

Cajun76
12-27-2003, 03:50 AM
Your missing my point, and the intent of my reply. I'm talking about the toughness and rugged durability of the Jug. You would be hard pressed to find a high performance fighter capable of 400mph+, operating at altitudes many fighters couldn't even effectively operate at, and be more resiient to damage than the T-Bolt.
But no, the Thunderbolt was not a flying tank, anymore than the IL2 Sturmovik was made of concrete, although it possessed the nickname of the "Concrete Plane" However, in relative terms to planes like the Zero or MiGs, it's ability to absorb punishment could be considered 'tank like'. Sorry for the confusion. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

Meanwhile, in the 20th century:

BOOM! Yeah, Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my JUG!! It's has 8 .50cals and 2000lbs+ worth of bombs and rockets. Republic's top of the line. You can find this in the Kick A$$ department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Farmingdale, Long Island and Evansville, Indiana. Retails for about $82,997.95. It's got a turbo-supercharger, all metal control surfaces with blunt nosed ailerons, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop right, shop Republic. YOU GOT THAT!? Now I swear, the next one of you primates, E-ven TOUCHES me..... - Anonymous http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

KIMURA
12-27-2003, 06:19 AM
I think some people still thinks some kilos of armor plating could turn an a/c to a tank. Even with armor protection an a/c is a very lightweight fragile construction that isn't made to absorbe gunfire. If you ever would saw real life gunfire you wouldn't state such strange things. Gun fire, doesn't matter which calibre, is very uncomfortalbe if you're at the worng end of the gun.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SkyChimp
12-27-2003, 09:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rhorta:
What I find interesting is that, and don't jump on my neck for it (and to put up a disclaimer to old SkyMonkey - no anti-americanism intended - although it will of course be judged in that manner), there is a tendency to count big cannon FRAGMENTS as full hits. Three bigger holes become three 20mm "hits", while it might have been caused by a single SHELL and its explosive and fragmentation effect. Same goes for bullets. Bullets fragment, they can leave entry AND exit holes...
"SPADES" Horta<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are the ONLY person I have EVER heard this from. Interesting. On what do you base this revelation?

I think you make things up as you go along http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

Cajun76
12-27-2003, 09:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KIMURA:
I think some people still thinks some kilos of armor plating could turn an a/c to a tank. Even with armor protection an a/c is a very lightweight fragile construction that isn't made to absorbe gunfire. If you ever would saw real life gunfire you wouldn't state such strange things. Gun fire, doesn't matter which calibre, is very uncomfortalbe if you're at the worng end of the gun.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't agree more, the object is NOT to get hit. However, if one's warplane WERE to get hit by many high velocity bits of metal, would you rather have it happen in a Zero / MiG or a Jug / Corsair / Hellcat? Again, the Jug IS NOT a tank, nor do I consider it a real, live, flying tank, impervious to enemy fire. It is an expression used to describe it's superior ruggedness in relation to other, contemporary aircraft. In this respect .......... the Thunderbolt is a tank. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

Meanwhile, in the 20th century:

BOOM! Yeah, Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my T-Bolt!! It's has 8 .50cals and 2000lbs+ worth of bombs and rockets. Republic's top of the line. You can find this in the Kick A$$ department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Farmingdale, Long Island and Evansville, Indiana. Retails for about $82,997.95. It's got a turbo-supercharger, all metal control surfaces with blunt nosed ailerons, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop Republic. YOU GOT THAT!? Now I swear, the next one of you primates, E-ven TOUCHES me..... - Anonymous http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BfHeFwMe
12-27-2003, 03:28 PM
12.7 up there in knock down power, no where near in the same class with .303's.

horseback
12-28-2003, 01:01 AM
In reference to Kearby being shot down by aN Oscar mounting only a pair of 12.7mm MGs, it is instructive to remember that the armor on the P-47 was on the back of the seat & headrest, and in front of the instrument panel. A burst to the cockpit from an angle other than directly behind or in front pretty much negates this protection, and that is what reportedly happened to Kearby.

Prewar trained Japanese pilots were as good as any in the world at that time, but they were hamstrung by a culture that romanticized combat, which led to an emphasis on maneuvering tactics and lightly armed aircraft which allowed the skilled individual pilot to go for harder shots, but didn't allow him to survive even moderate damage to his aircraft.

As for the initial attack that almost got Bob Johnson, his account (and the pictures of his aircraft taken afterwards) indicates to me that he took at least one 20mm hit behind the cockpit which exploded on contact with the skin of the aircraft, creating at least one of the (2 or 3)gaping holes that jammed his canopy closed, and possibly one more 20mm shot into the cockpit which shattered the canopy glass and exploded behind the instrument panel, causing the hydraulic fluid leak that temporarily blinded him. The photos I remember also showed a gaping hole in or near the right flap. This would be consistant with his description of the attack coming from the high 5 o'clock position, aiming for the engine and the cockpit. He described oil all over his windshield, but I don't recall seeing photos of damage to the front of his plane, since the more spectacular holing of his aircraft came from the second attacker, who was apparently limited to his MGs. One or two 20mm hits exploding in the razorback area would probably not do a lot of structural damage to a P-47, but it was something you'd want to avoid.

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

SkyChimp
12-28-2003, 07:29 AM
Ah, now we have it. Ruy Horta suspects damage was based on fragments. That does it for me, as Ruy is the self appointed expert on American technique and intention. All that crap we've been hearing about the P-47 having some resiliancy, well we can just lay that to rest. Since Ruy Horta suspects is wasn't true.

Gee, Ruy, for such an angry little man, you're just full of facts. Thanks, Ruy. You should write a book.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

DaBallz
12-28-2003, 09:13 AM
Anyone here ever crawled around in a real
WWII Fighter? I have had the chance to look in
the cockpit of a few on static display.
These aircraft are on USAF static display
and were literally placed there running.
They include a P-51H, an F-82E and a P-47D.
There are plenty of open area's where you
are not covered by armour.

The Armour is placed in area's where the odds are
that gun fire will come from. Notably you
are heavily armoured from behind, and below.
Side armour is almost non existant. (I saw none in a P-51).
So if the shot is from above or beside you the
killing shot can be made by the minimum cartrige
needed to penetrate the aluminum skin.

In essence a .22 long rifle could take you down.

Fuel tanks took a lot more killing power than
you might think. Fuel lines were more vulnerable.
To kill a "self sealing tank" you needed to shred it.
A cannon hit or a close range hit on a FULL tank
may do it. But a long range shot with light
rifle calibre fire will just result in a small
hole that will quickly re-seal.

Any of you that have messed around with shooting
water filled bottles and pails will understand
why a full container is more vulnerable than
a half full container.

Db

Zyzbot
12-28-2003, 09:38 AM
One photo of a hit on Johnson's P-47:


http://www.cradleofaviation.org/history/aircraft/p-47/Johnson2comp.jpg

Zyzbot
12-28-2003, 09:41 AM
another:

http://www.cradleofaviation.org/history/aircraft/p-47/Johnson1comp.jpg

FW190fan
12-28-2003, 12:37 PM
OK, that's a picture of two of the 20mm hits - anybody got a pick of the other 19?

http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-G2-33s_small.jpg

Zyzbot
12-28-2003, 03:29 PM
No way to know for sure but the first picture is allegedly of several 20mm hits.

Bremspropeller
12-28-2003, 03:40 PM
Are those pictures taken after Johnson's meeting with Egon Mayer ?

Mayer wasted all of the 7.92mm rounds he had left after a mission into the Thunderbolt and this thing kept on flying...Mayer himself shook the head about the toughness of this bird...



http://www.cwissig.com/CONCEPTS/FW-190%20Blue%20Pencil.jpg
"Once upon the time..there was an aircraft that ruled the skies of Europe..."
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FW190fan
12-28-2003, 03:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zyzbot:
No way to know for sure but the first picture is allegedly of several 20mm hits.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How would they be able to tell conclusively from that it was 21 20mm shells that hit Johnsons Thunderbolt?

Now I'm no expert but I only see 2-3 hits conclusively.

http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-G2-33s_small.jpg

DaBallz
12-28-2003, 03:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FW190fan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zyzbot:
No way to know for sure but the first picture is allegedly of several 20mm hits.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How would they be able to tell conclusively from that it was 21 20mm shells that hit Johnsons Thunderbolt?

Now I'm no expert but I only see 2-3 hits conclusively.

http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-G2-33s_small.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Johnsons P-47 is the stuff of legend. Unfortunately,
like most legends, there is no way to fully document it.

The truth was streched a bit???? Maybe.
if you are using Martin Caidins book "THUNDERBOLT"
as a reference be aware Martin never let
the truth stand in the way of a good story.

Db

Zyzbot
12-28-2003, 04:13 PM
Those 2 photos are all I found. Obviosly they show little of the aircraft and are not good enough to show how many rounds hit.

We have only the comments of those who were actually there to rely upon.They claim 20 or so 20 mmm hits and 200 machine gun hits.


Just as a matter of interest...check these links to photos of P--47 aircraft damaged by hits:

P-47 flak damage


http://www.cradleofaviation.org/history/aircraft/p-47/P-47elevatorgonecomp.jpg


P-47 20mm flak :

http://www.web-birds.com/8th/353/damage.jpg

20 mm hit (entry):

http://www.web-birds.com/12th/57/sterling0016.jpg

Same 20 mm (exit):

http://www.web-birds.com/12th/57/sterling0017.jpg

Listed as a 40mm hit:

http://www.web-birds.com/12th/57/65%2040MM%20Doc.jpg

SkyChimp
12-28-2003, 04:59 PM
Well, to me this looks like at least 4, possibly 5, 20mm entry holes. Clearly the exit damage is on the other side (the peeled skin is visible on top)

http://www.cradleofaviation.org/history/aircraft/p-47/Johnson2comp.jpg

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

DaBallz
12-28-2003, 06:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
Well, to me this looks like at least 4, possibly 5, 20mm entry holes. Clearly the exit damage is on the other side (the peeled skin is visible on top)

http://www.cradleofaviation.org/history/aircraft/p-47/Johnson2comp.jpg

_Regards,_
_SkyChimp_
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see three, maybe four hits. But I feel it's three.
The entry holes are round and the other holes
are ragged.

As evidence I will say that explosives have
to take time to detonate (at least two detonations primer then main charge)
take time to burn, then the over pressure will
be directed by the shape of the charge, it's container(the shell) and it's forward velocity.

the entry holes are reletivly clean, there is
some ragged tears from debris and shell fragments
but as Chimpster noted, the main damage
is caused by the over pressure on the far side.


The P-47 is a tough bird, perhaps the toughest
piston fighter of WWII.

What Johnsons fighter proved was that bad shots
don't deliver a kill. Although the plane was crippled
and never flew again, it would be hard to pick
unluckier impact points. It would be hard to
hit a plane that many times and not down it.

It seems to me that Gabreski had a similar incident.
A few hundred hits, and he made it home.

The P-47 was tough, but luck played a part!

EDIT&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I will add, if that was a A6M Zero....

Db

Gibbage1
12-29-2003, 12:03 AM
Wrong. The US did have and used .50 cal He. It was not very common. The tracer rounds also did have a bit of explosives.

Read up on the battle of Midway, or more along the lines of how the PBY crew found the fleet. They had some extra .50 cal HE rounds they wanted to test on a Mavis flying boat the found earlier. They took on extra fuel to find it and shoot it. When there standard load of fuel was gone, they used the extra fuel. Only then did they find the Jap fleet at Midway. The rest is history. So the only reason we found the Japs at Midway was because of .50 cal HE rounds.

Gib

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tttiger:
LS, with respect, the US never used an explosive .50 cal round. API was as good as it got. Look it up http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But I agree the .50s in FB are too puny. Anyone who has ever fired a real Ma Deuce knows how destructive they are.

As for the Ki-43, it remained in production through the end of the war. It was amazingly agile, even more nimble than the Zero, and US pilots said they had trouble killing it because it just danced all around their heavy B&Z machines. Speed isn't worth much if the enemy can easily Split-S out of your target solution, which is exactly what the Ki-43 drivers did.

S!

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

KIMURA
12-29-2003, 03:29 AM
The US 0.5" cal was never used with a HE warhead, that's a myth. I think most think of the INC-round that was filled with Phosphor/ Bariumnitrate, Aluminium and partly Caliumperchloride. That mixture of that powder burns up very rapidly, that seems like an explosion of HE. But that's not a really full size HE-shell in the common meaning


Here a pic of the 0.5" which were/are in military use.
http://www.wehrtechnikmuseum.de/Spitzenfarben.JPG

[This message was edited by KIMURA on Mon December 29 2003 at 02:52 AM.]

MiloMorai
12-29-2003, 03:47 AM
Sorry OT, but does anyone know why the Germans did not make a HE for the 15mm since the American .50" supposidly had a HE round. Should have been relatively easy to do.

Cajun76
12-29-2003, 06:32 AM
"There are twenty-one gaping holes and jagged tears in the metal from exploding 20mm cannon shells. I'm still standing in one place when my count of bullet holes reaches past a hundred; there's no use even trying to add them all. The Thunderbolt is literally a sieve, holes through the wings, fuselage and tail. Every square foot, it seems is covered with holes. There are five holes in the propeller. Three 20mm cannon shells burst against the armor plate, a scant inch away from my head. Five cannon shell holes in the right wing; four in the left wing. Two cannnon shells blasted away the lower half of my rudder. One shell exploded in the cockpit, next to my left hand; this is the blast that ripped away the flap handle. More holes appeared along the fuselage and in the tail. Behind the cockpit, the metal is twisted and curled; this had jammed the canopy, trapping me inside.
The airplane had done her best. Needless to say, she would never fly again."


OK. This is sorta like the story in the Bible about the wise men who bring baby Jesus three kinds of gifts, but most everyone just talks about 3 wise men. It never gives a head count, could be two, could be a hundred, but they're bearing 3 gifts. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Now, this counts 14 specific 20mm hits, and over 100 MG hits. He apparently stopped counting the MGs because there were just too many. Even the propeller has taken five rounds. He mentions more 20mm holes along the fuselage and tail, on top of what he mentions specificly.

The guys of that era were used to seeing battle damage, they saw it first hand, every day. I think they would know if something was a 20mm, or some flak. Or how 20mm explodes and fragments. They were profiecient, though maybe not trained specifically, in ballistics, through sheer experience.

I can't find the interview with Bob Johnson shortly before he passed away, only short excerpts. Does anyone have it? I seem to remember Col. Johnson giving an account much like what I posted above, which is from "Thunderbolt!"

The point is, the man was there, he and his squadron were familiar with battle damage, and he counts at least 14 20mm hits, and over a hundred MG hits. I feel confident that there were 'close' to 20 odd 20mm hits, and hundreds of MG fire. I also know, that not many single engine fighters of the era could take such a beating and survive. Was Johnson lucky? You betcha. Was his plane tough? Heck yes. Why are we having this discussion? Have no idea...

The Ki-43 most likely got a shot in around the armor, most likely from the side, just as has been stated. That cheater! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

Meanwhile, in the 20th century:

BOOM! Yeah, Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my T-Bolt!! It's has 8 .50cals and 2000lbs+ worth of bombs and rockets. Republic's top of the line. You can find this in the Kick A$$ department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Farmingdale, Long Island and Evansville, Indiana. Retails for about $82,997.95. It's got a turbo-supercharger, all metal control surfaces with blunt nosed ailerons, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop Republic. YOU GOT THAT!? Now I swear, the next one of you primates, E-ven TOUCHES me..... - Anonymous http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MiloMorai
12-29-2003, 07:33 AM
Thanks rhorta.

The MG151/15 in FB only fires 'solid' shot, does it not?

Zyzbot
12-29-2003, 07:55 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cajun76:



I can't find the interview with Bob Johnson shortly before he passed away, only short excerpts. Does anyone have it? I seem to remember Col. Johnson giving an account much like what I posted above, which is from "Thunderbolt!"
_____________________________________________

I believe that this might be what you are referring to:


Not long before he passed away in December, 1998, Robert S. Johnson was interviewed by Colin D. Heaton, of Military History magazine. Excerpts of that interview follow:
Military History: Tell us about some of the types of missions that the 56th Fighter Group performed.
Johnson: We started flying bomber escort. The first missions were just flights over the coastline into France to get a feel for the terrain and the enemy-controlled area. We occasionally met the enemy over the North Sea, and sometimes they came over to visit us. They would strafe the fields and that type of thing. As time went on, we pushed them back from the coastline, but that comes later in the story. That was where I received my combat and aerial gunnery training, against the best the Germans had.
MH: That's true, you were flying against Jagdgeschwader 2 (JG.2) and JG.26 a lot--and they were definitely a sharp group of pilots.
Johnson: Yes, that's correct. They were at Abbeville and along the coast, right across from us.
MH: I understand that Oberstleutnant Hans Philipp, leader of JG.1, was one of your victories?
Johnson: That was on October 8, 1943. My wingman and I had become separated, as sometimes happens in combat. We were trying to find some friendly airplanes to fly home with. I had just shot down a Messerschmitt Bf-110, which was my fourth kill. As I pulled up from that dive I saw four FW-190s attacking the bombers. I rolled over until I was upside down so I could watch them, as they were some 5,000 feet below me. I was inverted and continued my dive, shooting while pushing the nose forward to give the necessary lead for my bullets to intercept one of the planes. I was shooting at the leader, and his number three or four man pulled his nose up, shooting at me as I was coming down. I continued the attack, and just as I hit the leader, knocking him down, I felt a thump in my airplane. How badly I was hit I didn't know, as I was very busy. I leveled out after that, and I found out 50 years later that my fifth victory was Hans Philipp, a 206-victory ace from the Russian Front. I pulled up right in the path of a group of Bf-110s and FW-190s coming in behind the four I had engaged. I immediately threw the stick left and dropped the nose. Nothing happened when I hit left rudder, and then I knew that my rudder cable was shot away. I had no rudder control at all, only trim tabs.
MH: What went through your mind at that time?
Johnson: Well, the main thing was to get clear of that cluster of enemy fighters. I dived away with the throttle wide open, and I saw some friendly P-47s and joined up with them. My first thought was to bail out, but I pulled up alongside them and found I could still fly, even with 35 feet of rudder cable piled up in the cockpit. Those planes were from the 62nd Squadron, part of our group. They said, "Sure, come aboard." Ralph Johnson turned out to be leading the flight. I still had the throttle wide open, and he said, "Jesus Christ, Johnson, cut it back!" I was running away from them. Well, I chopped the throttle back and we returned to England, landing at Boxted, which was the first base we came to. Ironically, we were later stationed there as a group. There was one little opening in the clouds below, and I saw there were some runways. At the time, we had a bomber and a Piper Cubtype airplane ahead of us, and we let them land first. They said, "Bob, since you're banged up, you go in first." I told them: "No, I have plenty of fuel, and if I mess it up none of you could get in. I'll just stay up here and come in last." They all landed and got out of the way. I came in a little hot, but I still had aileron control--no problem there. I came in, touched the wheels first, then the tail wheel dropped. I had to hold the left rudder cable in my hand so that I could get to my brakes. The minute I touched down I was pulling on the cable, using the brakes, and was able to stop. I pulled off the runway in case anyone had to come in behind me. I climbed out and walked the entire perimeter of that base; I could not see due to the foggy weather. I later found the other guys at the control tower, waiting on me. The next morning we looked at the airplane, which was only 50 yards from the tower, but I had walked in the opposite direction for about 2.5 miles to get to that point. We had some guys come over and put a new rudder cable in.
MH: Tell us about some of your most memorable combat missions.
Johnson: Well, four P-47 groups pushed the Germans back from the French and Dutch coasts to about a north-south line from Kiel to Hanover. They knew what our range was because they had captured a couple of P-47s and they knew it was a big gas eater. They set their defensive line at the limit of our operational range, where we had to turn back. On March 6, however, we had one of the biggest aerial battles right over Dümmer Lake. They attacked the bombers, and about 69 of the heavies were shot down. I had eight guys to protect the bombers against about 150 German fighters, so we were not very effective at that time. We were split into groups A and B, spreading ourselves thin since the Germans had not come up to fight. They showed up then on March 6, 8 and 15, and I was on all three missions. I was in Group B on March 8 and Group A on the other days, which was right up in front. I was the lead plane on those occasions. We lost 34 bombers on March 8, and on the 15th I was the lead plane moving north trying to find the Germans. Well, I found them. There were three groups of Germans with about 50 planes per group, and the eight of us went right into them head on. Two groups were level, coming horizontally, and the third was up high as top cover. We went in, since we had no choice, and fired line abreast. That stalled them a little bit. I was pushing every button I could find on my radio, including SOS. I gave the location where I found the Germans and what they were. In just a matter of minutes we had scores of planes--P-47s, North American P-51s and Lockheed P-38s. It was a big turmoil, but we lost only one bomber that day, due to flak. Usually when we could find no Germans in the air on the way home, we would drop down near the treetops and strafe anything of military value--airfields, marshaling yards, trains, boats, anything like that. Later, the Ninth Air Force took that up as they pushed ahead of our ground forces.
MH: I know that ground attack was not considered a choice assignment.
Johnson: I think that is another good reason why I'm still alive. An awful lot of guys who flew aerial combat with me ended up either as POWs or badly shot up doing that kind of business. Also, after my first victory I had a reputation as a sort of a wild man, and other pilots would say, "Don't fly with Johnson, he'll get you killed." Later they decided to make me a flight leader and then a squadron leader. I felt that even though I was a leader, the other guys were as good as I was, and we decided that if they were in a good firing position, they should have the lead. In our one flight of eight boys we had the four leading aces in Europe. Then we got aggressive, and everyone became competitive. We were competing not only against the guys in our squadron but also against other squadrons. Later, it was our group against other groups, that kind of thing. We had "Gabby" Gabreski, myself, Jerry Johnson, Bud Mahurin and Joe Powers, who was one of our leaders at that time. He was killed in Korea when his engine was hit as he was trying to make it back across Inchon Bay on January 18, 1951. He went down with his plane.
MH: Pilots generally swear by their aircraft. Günther Rall and Erich Hartmann praised the Messerschmitt Bf-109, Erich Rudorffer and Johannes Steinhoff the Me-262, and Buddy Haydon the P-51 Mustang. I have to say after seeing all of the old photos of the various Thunderbolts and others that were shot up, I can't imagine any other plane absorbing that much damage and still flying. What is your opinion of your aircraft?
Johnson: This is very similar to the German debate. As far as the 109, all of the German pilots loved that plane, but the FW-190 was harder to shoot down. Just like the controversy over the P-51 and P-47. The P-47 was faster; it just did not have the climb and range the Mustang did. But it had speed, roll, dive and the necessary ruggedness that allowed it to do such a great job in the Ninth Air Force. As far as aerial kills go, we met and beat the best the Luftwaffe had when we first got there. It was the P-47 groups that pushed them back, as I said before. The P-51s had the advantage of longer range, and they were able to hit even the training schools, hitting boys just learning to fly. As the war dragged on, many of the old German veterans had been killed--so much of the experience was gone. As far as the 109 versus 190 argument, the 109 had the liquid-cooled engine whereas the 190 had an air-cooled radial engine, much like ours. One hit in the cooling system of a Messerschmitt and he was going down. Also, none of the German fighters were as rugged as a P-47. When I was badly shot up on June 26, 1943, I had twenty-one 20mm cannon shells in that airplane, and more than 200 7.92mm machine-gun bullets. One nicked my nose and another entered my right leg, where the bullet split in half. I still have those two little pieces, by the way; they went in just under the skin. I had been hurt worse playing football and boxing. However, I had never been that scared, I'll tell you that. I was always scared--that was what made me move quick. "Hub" Zemke liked the P-51 because it had great range, but he put one in a dive and when he pulled out he ripped the wings off that airplane--that was how he became a POW. Adolf Galland, who was a very good friend of mine and who I had known since 1949, flew the Me-262 and loved it, but he still swore by the 109, although it was still easier to shoot down.

MiloMorai
12-29-2003, 08:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rhorta:
AFAIK FB's 109F-2 only fires AP rounds.

That is, I **THINK** you are correct.

Ruy "SPADES" Horta<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Does this mean there will be requests for the other 15mm ammo types?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Zyzbot
12-29-2003, 08:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rhorta:
Thanks Zyzbot for posting something more However as a side note, as far as counting goes, the photographs posted show how difficult an accurate assessment can be. Can you clearly tell how many "shells" caused that damage?

Ruy "SPADES" Horta<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



_______________________________________________

Not possible form those 2 small photos showing only a small part of the plane. But given the fact that Johnson (and others) was able to crawl all over the plane and look...I'll take his word over any modern day forum posters like you and me!

XyZspineZyX
12-29-2003, 09:39 AM
This is one of those cases where it's better to be fortunate than to be good.

I remember flying a Hayabusa against B-25s in Warbirds once. I attacked a formation of them (with otto gunners just as bad or worse than what we have in FB) and figured I'd just hose away with the popguns until I got killed; I mean, come on, what chance does one have with 2 x 7.7mm popguns vs. a Mitchell?

In that case, 100%...I killed one Mitchell with a concentrated burst to the wingroot, and badly damaged another before I ran out of BBs. AND, I got to break off and survive the encounter with just minimal damage.

Even now, years later, I can't believe I did that.

SkyChimp
12-29-2003, 04:03 PM
Rhorta, it's worth noting that you took a shot at me in your very first post in this thread. The very first one. Ironically, you want me to be seen as the antagonist here. Funny how that works.

You accuse me of hating Europeans. I don't. And despite the fact that I think there is a lot about you not to like, I don't even hate you. I simply view you as being wholly insincere. That's all.

I'm not sure why that would matter to you. I've read your website. You think a lot of yourself. You are your own ultimate admirer. Why should the fact that I think anything about you matter, when you've already got the admiration of yourself?

Now, Ruy, back to the topic. Let's see if you can actually live up to that statement that you have no intention of replying to me. Although I'd be completely satisfied with you not being the first with negativce comments in the future.

[This message was edited by SkyChimp on Mon December 29 2003 at 03:32 PM.]

DaBallz
12-29-2003, 07:10 PM
Ok guys, lets reset the conversation and be civil.
As to .50 cal SERVICE ammo of WWII I am aware of three
types suitable for combat. AP, with a Wolfram/Tungsten core, steel core and incendiary.
I do not know of purely tracer ammo, incendiary was
intended to ignite a target, tracer was for visuals.

Today there is a wider variety of .50 cal ammo
available, HE included.

If effective HE .50 cal ammo was developed during WWII
I doube the US navy (and later the USAF) woud
have dropped the .50 for air to air use.

Db

clint-ruin
12-29-2003, 09:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rhorta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Does this mean there will be requests for the other 15mm ammo types?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With all the stink going on, I will certainly not risk stepping into another cesspool. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Besides, I wonder if the damage model in FB is intricate enough to make use of incendiary ammunition.

Still love the game though...

Ruy "SPADES" Horta<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FB does indeed include "API" and other incendary shells in its ammunition database, and as far as I know these affect planes differently to ordinary rounds when fired.

As for ammo loadouts - there have been a lot of discussions on the 109F2/F4 ammo loadouts here in the past. Apparently the mix of AP shells was increased substancially on the LW's eastern front due to planes like the Il-2 running around the place.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Cajun76
12-30-2003, 05:54 AM
Btw, Zyzbot, thanks for the interveiw, I looked everywhere but the right place, it seems.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I think someone has posted it before, but I had forgotten to save the link.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

Meanwhile, in the 20th century:

BOOM! Yeah, Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my T-Bolt!! It's has 8 .50cals and 2000lbs+ worth of bombs and rockets. Republic's top of the line. You can find this in the Kick A$$ department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Farmingdale, Long Island and Evansville, Indiana. Retails for about $82,997.95. It's got a turbo-supercharger, all metal control surfaces with blunt nosed ailerons, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop Republic. YOU GOT THAT!? Now I swear, the next one of you primates, E-ven TOUCHES me..... - Anonymous http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hanni8
01-01-2004, 06:02 PM
Cajun, i know this story, very exciting !
But it was not the norm, as has been said, the armor was proof vs. 0.3 cal. rounds and nothing else, rest of plane, as i suppose, was duraluminium which we all know is quite soft. Up to mid 1943 still most LW-Pilots used mainly the Minengeschosspatrone for their 20 mm because they usually were extremely effective vs. fighters like the Spit. The Minengeschosspatrone had a large explosive filler, thin walls, and immediately exploded on impact. Later after being suprised by the almost nil effect vs. B-17s more Panzerspreng (Armorpiercingexplosive) and Brandspreng (Explosivewithposhpor) was used. Also Johnson maybe was just lucky and no dangerous 20 mm round hit his back armor.
There also is a story (JG 26 Diary) where a FW190 collided with a Jug the latter crashing while the Focke returned safely home....it's a matter of luck...
As an aggresive pilot you have to believe in the qualities of your machine and your abilities, no matter what kite you're flying, and Johnson certainly was one of the "new breed" beside Zemke and Schilling which acted much more aggresively in the sky, with telling results on the Luftwaffe fighters which was accustomed that only the british and Canadians Spitfires aggresively engaged while the Jugs were flying in deep peace somewhere above 8000 m as was noted frequently in Luftwaffe reports.

Greets

Cajun76
01-01-2004, 07:52 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif "No dangerous 20mm hit his back armor"?
From my post above:

"There are twenty-one gaping holes and jagged tears in the metal from exploding 20mm cannon shells. I'm still standing in one place when my count of bullet holes reaches past a hundred; there's no use even trying to add them all. The Thunderbolt is literally a sieve, holes through the wings, fuselage and tail. Every square foot, it seems is covered with holes. There are five holes in the propeller. Three 20mm cannon shells burst against the armor plate, a scant inch away from my head. Five cannon shell holes in the right wing; four in the left wing. Two cannnon shells blasted away the lower half of my rudder. One shell exploded in the cockpit, next to my left hand; this is the blast that ripped away the flap handle. More holes appeared along the fuselage and in the tail. Behind the cockpit, the metal is twisted and curled; this had jammed the canopy, trapping me inside.
The airplane had done her best. Needless to say, she would never fly again."

Johnson was indeed lucky, no doubt, but I don't think he would have survived in any other single engine fighter, either. Republic granite helped a lot.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

Meanwhile, in the 20th century:

BOOM! Yeah, Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my T-Bolt!! It's has 8 .50cals and 2000lbs+ worth of bombs and rockets. Republic's top of the line. You can find this in the Kick A$$ department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Farmingdale, Long Island and Evansville, Indiana. Retails for about $82,997.95. It's got a turbo-supercharger, all metal control surfaces with blunt nosed ailerons, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop Republic. YOU GOT THAT!? Now I swear, the next one of you primates, E-ven TOUCHES me..... - Anonymous http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WereSnowleopard
01-02-2004, 06:30 AM
No Cheat! Master Sgt. Anabuki Satoru shot 3 B-24 and one P-38 in one sortie in his Ki-43. I had read story in book as can not remember his name so I used "Ki-43 B-24" in search engine, quick result as find website of that story for you to read about him and his action. http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/anabuki/anabuki.htm

KIMURA
01-02-2004, 10:45 AM
LOL I got the impression some are totally underrating the destroying power of 12.7/20mm rounds. During my time at the Armed Forces an M113 w.20mm turret accidently fired a single shot of a 20mm/INC into a Pinzgauer 6/6 vehicle - as shown below. That carrier vehilce immetiately was destroyed and completely burnt out. BTW there's not a significant difference if an armor plate was hit by a AP or a HE shell(for the crew). Both types of ammo has their own effect on stell plating. AP is simply running through (like welding) with an effect of glowing frangments that sprays into the cockpit. HE has the effect that in case it explodes above the surface of the armor plate an immense prssure is build up in the inner of the plate. That immense pressure tries to expand and does that in the easiest way it could --&gt; into the opposite direction it came from --&gt; in direction to the cockpit. Also in this case glowing fragments sprays around. For thge pilot who behing the armor is no significant difference to notice.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.ebroadcast.com.au/ecars/Places/Au/Vic/PiCs37/TlngWater.jpg

[This message was edited by KIMURA on Fri January 02 2004 at 09:54 AM.]

[This message was edited by KIMURA on Fri January 02 2004 at 09:55 AM.]

KIMURA
01-03-2004, 05:11 AM
As for the Mk108, IIRC, the theory was not to penetrate any surfaces to get the needed influence to destroy an or damage an a/c. So we're talking about surfaces of a/c which are 1mm thick, more or less. If you ignite a taken mass of explosive near of just over that surface the effect on the structure and panel is very strong.

Kain_TheReaper
01-03-2004, 11:33 AM
The guy is dead... The pilot who shot him is dead... Why the heck are you still debating? U do know that ANY plane can be shot down, and 50. cal guns AREN'T that small http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
All he needed were a few lucky shots... but the damage reports say the plane was riddled with holes... whatever! This has no importance whatsoever!
My oppinion: Leave the dead to rest!

x__CRASH__x
01-03-2004, 11:34 AM
I bet the Japanese pilot was playing with externals enabled or cockpit off!

the P-47 pilot didn't know ICONS WERE ENABLED!!

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)

GoodKn1ght
01-03-2004, 11:44 AM
damn noobs, why cant everyone just use a 'pit.

x__CRASH__x
01-03-2004, 11:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
damn noobs, why cant everyone just use a 'pit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


STFU n00b!!1!

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)

Piaggio108
01-05-2004, 06:08 PM
Once a buffalo got behind me and killed me with the third shot or so. It only takes one bullet to kill a pilot