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Xnomad
08-13-2004, 04:30 PM
Perhaps this topic should be in the GD room but I find that you get more intelligent replies in ORR.

So anyway here is my question:

Could someone please explain to me what exactly Delta Wood is? Is this a word translated from Russian or what? I have only heard of this type of wood mentioned in FB circles and nowhere else. In fact I can't find any articles on the web explaining what Delta Wood is.

From what I gather it's a wooden construction reinforced with metal?

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

Xnomad
08-13-2004, 04:30 PM
Perhaps this topic should be in the GD room but I find that you get more intelligent replies in ORR.

So anyway here is my question:

Could someone please explain to me what exactly Delta Wood is? Is this a word translated from Russian or what? I have only heard of this type of wood mentioned in FB circles and nowhere else. In fact I can't find any articles on the web explaining what Delta Wood is.

From what I gather it's a wooden construction reinforced with metal?

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

SkyChimp
08-13-2004, 06:04 PM
Simple really. Delta Wood was the type of wood used in Soviet aircraft. It was impervious to cannon fire or any other damage, all while being extremely light. This aspect of Soviet planes is modelled exceptionally well in FB.


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/signature.jpg

p1ngu666
08-13-2004, 06:29 PM
its probably a laminate, similer to plywood, but with various other bits layered between the wood.

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
<123_GWood_JG123> NO SPAM!

SkyChimp
08-13-2004, 08:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
its probably a laminate, similer to plywood, but with various other bits layered between the wood.

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chobham armor is based on Delta wood. As you know, Delta Wood was, indeed, a ply material with sheets of depleted uranium sandwiched between layers of ironwood - only really light. In fact, M-1 tanks were to use delta wood instead of Chobham armor, but all the delta wood trees had died.

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/signature.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
08-13-2004, 09:03 PM
ooooooh

looky at the closet V.V.S DM critic !

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WWMaxGunz
08-13-2004, 09:19 PM
Deltawood is a plywood made with plastic-impregnated wood.
Strong and dense.
However the stuff did not survive well in humid, warm to hot climates at least
from what I have read so it must not have been all that well sealed.

Other than that: [humor mode ON HIGH]
Apparently the Tunguska blast meteorite was from the planet Krypton. Fragments
were collected and even microscopic amounts used in materials rendered them as
superior or some might say, super. The production of deltawoos was one such.
[humor mode ON NORMAL]


Neal

LEXX_Luthor
08-13-2004, 09:46 PM
Although I would have preferred Flyable Avia B.534, at least the Mosquito will stop the wood jokes.



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

SkyChimp
08-13-2004, 09:52 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Although I would have preferred Flyable Avia B.534, at least the Mosquito will stop the wood jokes.
[QUOTE]

No it won't. The Germans used to bomb British airfields with termites.

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/signature.jpg

Bull_dog_
08-13-2004, 10:31 PM
I was fortunate in that I sought a degree in wood technology for a well know university...

Delta Wood : Impossibolis Twopenatratus Wthcanonaea

Otherwise known as Russian Birch Plywood. The cellular structure is made primarily of special woody cells known as Teflonian Parenchyma Cells. These cells are unique to parts of Russia and when peeled to 1/6th of an inch and dried to 0% moisture and laminated with the special resin with a Titanium additive for toughness you got the infamous Delta Wood.

To date, not even Tinius Olsen has been able to manufacture a testing machine that can accurately measure the Modulus of Rupture and Modulus of elasticity of this super composite.

The wood, in a practical sense, was capable of deflecting all but the most precise cannon rounds. Most believe the German Mk108 was designed to destroy B-17's over Europe, but in reality it was to counteract Stalin's secret weapon...delta wood. It was found that normal 20mm cannon ammo to be largely ineffective against delta wood.

The wood was so tough that Joseph Stalin had decorative paneling made from the material and installed in his home, thus creating a secret bunker of sorts...a perfect disguise...a home with wood paneling tougher than the armor on a T-34 Tank!

The rest of the Delta wood phenomenon is veiled in secrecy. Wood products companies all over the world have been trying harder to find the secret recepie than Popeye's chicken tried to rob the Colonel of the KFC secret herbs and spices.

I'm telling you this at risk of unearthing secrets that have layed buried for years...so if i suddenly disappear from the forums, you'll know some terrible guy came and got me!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif All in good fun of course!

triggerhappyfin
08-14-2004, 03:33 AM
As a boatbuilder by profession, I think the concept of deltawood is what we now a days call by the name cold molding.

This is done by applying strips of veneer or plywood over a mold, diagonally is preferred.
The next applyide diagonally over the layer before. Thereby actually making a sheet of plywood with a shape of the hull or item wanted.

The layers are chemically bonded to eatchother by some kind of resin. Epoxi being the major resin used by professionals as well as amatours.

http://www.alongshore.com/boatshop/construction/t-marshcatjane2.jpg


Interesting article (http://www.westsystem.com/ewmag/22/babyface.html)

This method gives us lightweight strong and most of all beautiful hulls.

Working with this method is rather nicer than building GRP-hulls. Epoxi donâ´t smell by itâ´s owne, at least not very much. Skin contact is to be avoided though.

Britts used this method building the famous Mossies, by the way.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Triggerhappyfin/ace1_copy.bmp
Heads-on firing was not a safe practice after all ?
Jussi Huotari: It was not specially recommendedâ.....
And later, as the Russians were armed with 20mm cannons, it was unwise to meet them heads-on

triggerhappyfin
08-14-2004, 03:51 AM
Found this on my PC.
The picture shows diagonally applied veneers of wood applied over the hull of I-16 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Triggerhappyfin/I-16.jpg

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Triggerhappyfin/ace1_copy.bmp
Heads-on firing was not a safe practice after all ?
Jussi Huotari: It was not specially recommendedâ.....
And later, as the Russians were armed with 20mm cannons, it was unwise to meet them heads-on

Xnomad
08-14-2004, 04:28 AM
Well so much for the intelligent replies! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif and thanks to the ones that did reply with some decent info http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

Chuck_Older
08-14-2004, 06:59 AM
My dim recollection from aeronautical school is telling me that heartwood was part of the equation (wood from the center of the tree)

*****************************
Killers in America work seven days a week
~ Clash

triggerhappyfin
08-14-2004, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xnomad:

From what I gather it's a wooden construction reinforced with metal?
http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The metal parts would be the frame work.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Triggerhappyfin/ace1_copy.bmp
Heads-on firing was not a safe practice after all ?
Jussi Huotari: It was not specially recommendedâ.....
And later, as the Russians were armed with 20mm cannons, it was unwise to meet them heads-on

heywooood
08-14-2004, 10:18 PM
I love the planes that are made of a wood.

Hey!....
http://www.ivanberryman.co.uk/images/xb22.jpg
...Wood!



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

triggerhappyfin
08-15-2004, 06:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
I love the planes that are made of a wood.

Hey!....
http://www.ivanberryman.co.uk/images/xb22.jpg
...Wood!



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"



<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In an other thread a guy suggested birds beeing included to the game.

That could just be the ultimate German secret weapon.... a flight of wood******s vulching mossies on ground...lol

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Triggerhappyfin/ace1_copy.bmp
Heads-on firing was not a safe practice after all ?
Jussi Huotari: It was not specially recommendedâ.....
And later, as the Russians were armed with 20mm cannons, it was unwise to meet them heads-on

zugfuhrer
08-15-2004, 03:38 PM
Delta wood is basically birch faner that is painted with tar.

I wrote to a school of polytechnics department of "how to make things strong"

They know about the Delta wood and they said that it wasnt any better than other way to make aircraft of wood. The best wood-planes was the mosquito that was made of honeycomb balsa and layered with playwood, a special wery hard glue.

The polytechnics said that in some aspects plane made of wood where better but if you make a total look at manufactoring of airplanes, the alu-alloys where better.

triggerhappyfin
08-15-2004, 04:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
Delta wood is basically birch faner that is painted with tar.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This I doubt very strongly!!

Not the birch veneer bit, but the tar business http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

During time of ww2 there were no epoxi, but they sure got a lot of other types of resin.
Highly water and boilproof.

Making a hull in this technique makes it very strong and lightweight. Iâ´ve made hulls for sailyachts of 35" of lenght - two men were able to lift the hull by there owne force!!!

The sort of wood used is not so critical(at least with epoxi), as skill to work the material and technique.

I presume itâ´s a lot easier to learn how to assemble aluminium frames with stringers and rivet the sheets to that.

To make a wooden construction takes a skilled craftsmen to accomplish. For large numbers in production you have to simplify the methods to be able to achieve production goals. There are the pros for aluminium.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Triggerhappyfin/ace1_copy.bmp
Heads-on firing was not a safe practice after all ?
Jussi Huotari: It was not specially recommendedâ.....
And later, as the Russians were armed with 20mm cannons, it was unwise to meet them heads-on

BBB_Hyperion
08-15-2004, 04:51 PM
borrowed from Kimura German Forum Deltawood discussion

From the Book La-5/7 in Action

"The DSP-10 Delta Wood used on the La-4 was developed at All-Russian Institute of Aviation Materials at Zhukovsky. It was built from five to eight layers of birch strips, glued cross-grain, and impreganted with VIAM-B3 (phenol-formaldehyde resin, borax and boric acid) and used in conjunction with bakelyte ply. The bakelyte ply consisted of layers of birch strip bonded with film at 150â?C.

Delta wood was only used in the 1st production batches of the La-5, because the imported German resin was soon in short supply. As a result, the Delta wood components were replaced by conventional pine.



http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Ok Flame on now lets look how it develops here.

Skychimp like your new sense of humor .) .

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

WWMaxGunz
08-15-2004, 08:47 PM
Triggerhappy... there's a *whole lot* more to skinning a plane in aluminum than
just laying it on and rivetting down. It's a specialty, the metal must be
formed onto the frame, wing leading edges especially. I knew a guy who went from
our shop to Boeing to do just that in 1981. The work is done with wide hammers
very gently, you don't want to stretch the metal which is easy to do, you only
want to shape it. Requires a touch and if you think working birch is difficult
then stay away from precision sheet metal!

BTW, have you ever thought of using glass fiber in between some of the birch plys?
I think that you can get very thin glass cloth. Another alternate that might work
well is chicken wire which is used in ferro-concrete ship hulls. Either would add
to the tensile and shear strengths of your hulls.


Neal

triggerhappyfin
08-16-2004, 01:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:

BTW, have you ever thought of using glass fiber in between some of the birch plys?

Neal<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No need to!!

Itâ´s mostly a question about how dry the wood is. The dryier the better.
When epoxi is used to coldmolding the wood is saturated with epoxi, a thin glass fiber tissue is mostly used on the outside to ensure a sertain thickness of the outer epoxi layer.

Tests done scientificly shows a almost nonexisting ingreasing of humidity in a mold exposed and submergde in seawater all through the year.

Molecular structure of epoxi is so dense that the structure of water is larger, thereby deniyng water access to wood.

It is actually the case of weakening the cold molded structure to add some glas fibre layer in between - Tests show that the wood fibre is much more resistant to fatique than the glass fibre. In some circumstancies itâ´s superior to even carbon fibre.

Then again itâ´s the cost of the materials: Wood = cheap, Glass/Carbon = expensive.

Conscidering the fact of labouring the material - Iâ´ll rather work with wood than any of the artificial fibres.

I have all respect to other skills as the metal workerâ´s.
The thing I tryed to say was that prefabricated parts in metal is supposed to be easier to assemble to a whole - thereby meaning: less skilled workers can do the majority of workload leaving the tricky bits to the more skilled workers.
By doing so the requiered man hours is easy to get together and mass production of aircraft is possible.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Triggerhappyfin/ace1_copy.bmp
Heads-on firing was not a safe practice after all ?
Jussi Huotari: It was not specially recommendedâ.....
And later, as the Russians were armed with 20mm cannons, it was unwise to meet them heads-on

triggerhappyfin
08-16-2004, 01:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
borrowed from Kimura German Forum Deltawood discussion

From the Book La-5/7 in Action

"The DSP-10 Delta Wood used on the La-4 was developed at All-Russian Institute of Aviation Materials at Zhukovsky. It was built from five to eight layers of birch strips, glued cross-grain, and impreganted with VIAM-B3 (phenol-formaldehyde resin, borax and boric acid) and used in conjunction with bakelyte ply. The bakelyte ply consisted of layers of birch strip bonded with film at 150â?C.
Delta wood was only used in the 1st production batches of the La-5, because the imported German resin was soon in short supply. As a result, the Delta wood components were replaced by conventional pine.




Regards,
Hyperion<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is exactly a procedure of cold molding!!
Phenol-formaldehyde resin is used making water/boil proof plywood.

As been said: Deltawood should be able to take a whole lot of pounding!!
The entire hull beeing a sheet of plywood in shape of an aircraft http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif. Where are the weakest spots in a sheet of plywood? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

In the entire mold there will be no joints http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Triggerhappyfin/ace1_copy.bmp
Heads-on firing was not a safe practice after all ?
Jussi Huotari: It was not specially recommendedâ.....
And later, as the Russians were armed with 20mm cannons, it was unwise to meet them heads-on

BigganD
08-16-2004, 10:41 AM
i think that delta wood is russian propaganda http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Get close .. when he fills the entire windscreen ... then you can't possibly miss." Erich Hartmann

plumps_
08-16-2004, 12:35 PM
BigganD, prepare yourself for a long journey. We have a nice little place in northern Siberia for you.

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My Missions (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/missionen-en.html)

BfHeFwMe
08-16-2004, 03:43 PM
http://www.sdplastics.com/phenolic.html

You can order yours here. We call it phenolic block. Even used in building planes, usually as gear well wheel bumps or some other non-critical load bearing structure. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Bull_dog_
08-16-2004, 07:04 PM
Phenolic resins have been around for years in various forms. Today, they are used primarily for exterior grade products...primarily OSB and Plywood and other such composite materials.

The resin itself, won't make the plywood more bullet resistant...although the physical properties are very good compared to Urea Formaldahyde and protein based resins.

The orientation of the grain revolves primarily around the ability to mold the plywood into various shapes and to make sure the physical properties of the wood were strong enough to take the stresses the aircraft would be exposed to.

Wood is still not very bullet resistant...I own a .30-06 Springield Rifle that uses the same ammo that the .30 cal browning light machine guns were made of...there wasn't an oak tree around that was safe from military ball ammo...I still have some ammo left...I know.

I'm not going to get into a debate on damage modelling, but I can say this...wood was not used because it was superior...it was used because it was plentiful.

I worked at a place that used to make plywood for liberty ships and Mosquito fighters...all the people that worked there in the 40's are long gone, but I always looked at the pictures of those WWII war winners that hung on the wall with a different eye than most.

heywooood
08-16-2004, 07:08 PM
yes Bulldog...exactly...metal resources were in short supply...lots of tanks and trucks and guns and ships and planes to build. the moulded plywood was incorporated into the fuselages of the NA T-6's in the US initially for this reason.



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

Aaron_GT
08-17-2004, 10:38 AM
Wood won't make the structure bullet proof, but the criss-crossed construction may allow the structure to survive despite a large amount of damage, plus a resistant to entire panels being stripped off the surface as can happen with a stressed skin construction. This is basically what gave the Mosquito its ability to absorb damage - and it was very much this - the ability to absorb the damage, not repel it, but carry on after having absorb it.

Interestingly some considered the Hurricane to be able to withstand quite a lot of damage in 1939-40 when rifle calibre guns were still very common as the fabric would allow the bullets to pass through without much damage being caused. However fabric covering isn't much good for a high speed aircraft, so had a limited future in combat aircraft.

Similarly the Mosquito was a high speed plane, but the construction meant that it was less flexible than a metal construction aircraft, meaning it had a fairly noticeable dive speed limit. I would expect delta wood aircraf to be the same. In the game it seems that delta wood aircraft have a lower safe dive limit than other planes, so it seems to be modelled.

Aaron_GT
08-17-2004, 10:40 AM
P.S. with regard to the Mosquito, it avoided using aluminium, which was in short supply, but it used balsa, which had to be imported from central/south America, so it wasn't that much less a strategic material.

p1ngu666
08-17-2004, 11:20 AM
ya mossie could take alot of damage http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
i think it was balsa wood, in a plywood sandwhich http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
it was also light and that helped speed
wood probably retains its strength when u punch holes thru it better,metal would buckle more

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

triggerhappyfin
08-18-2004, 04:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
ya mossie could take alot of damage http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
i think it was balsa wood, in a plywood sandwhich http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
it was also light and that helped speed
wood probably retains its strength when u punch holes thru it better,metal would buckle more

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Asi mentioned above a cold molded hull is like a sheet of plywood in form of a ac hull.
Itâ´s very stiff in its owne and donâ´t need much of frames and stringers to make it as stiff as needed.
Hard to find the soft point that makes it collapse...holes there will be when shot on.
A lot of shootin would be needed to get it collapse.
(No concideration taken to fuel tanks and stuff)

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Triggerhappyfin/ace1_copy.bmp
Heads-on firing was not a safe practice after all ?
Jussi Huotari: It was not specially recommendedâ.....
And later, as the Russians were armed with 20mm cannons, it was unwise to meet them heads-on

Bull_dog_
08-18-2004, 07:36 PM
Wood aircraft, in general, were inferior in strenght to metal ones...the Mosquito had G restriction due to its construction and some Soviet aircraft were prone to certain structral failures due to weak tail sections...in fact, I suspect the parts falling off aircraft in a dive is a direct result of the Soviet experience in WWII with wood construction.

As far as how much damage it took...well ammo penetrates wood easier and farther and the structural integrity is a funtion of the size of the hole and its relative proximity to the area of highest stress...that is if the plane was in a tight turn the tail section would be stressed greatest at the top and bottom of the fuselage...if a large hole appeared on the surface under tension (the lower portion) this would be much more damaging to the structural integrity than a hole in the middle.

I've not found that wood produces a smaller hole when hit by a bullet than steel. Fabric definitely is more forgiving than stressed steels skins.

The structural integrity of various aircraft made of wood was not likely due to its wood construction alone, but rather the robustness of the wood construction....just like american B-26 was much more robust than the B-25 even though they were both made from metal. Balsa is actually stronger than steel pound for pound so some wood planes might have been constructed with extra load bearing capability due to the light weight nature of wood....I'm certain I read that the wood construction and G limitation was a big reason why the skeeter wasn't utilized as a heavy fighter...it was fast and manueverable enough, it just couldn't take the G loading necessary to dogfight.

p1ngu666
08-18-2004, 08:04 PM
if u mean the mossie, it caused massive damage to the night fighter germans.
it did have a low g limit and dive speed...

i do think wood wouldnt buckle like metal, and then u would get strange loadings on airframe...
plywood is pretty tough stuff if used correctly http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
wood would also be thicker than the aluminium used?

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

Carnage2681
08-18-2004, 11:08 PM
Hmmmm, for sure the russians build rockets from Wood, like Dr. Snuggles http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The T90 MBT is also made of this, do protect it against the 30mm Cannon of the A10 :-D

triggerhappyfin
08-19-2004, 02:11 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Triggerhappyfin/Deltawood.bmp

To Bull-dog:

I've not found that wood produces a smaller hole when hit by a bullet than steel. Fabric definitely is more forgiving than stressed steels skins.

As the text I included above shows the I-16 was built by molding the hull in halves, prolly adding frames and stringers to the halves before joining them together.
As the word monoque tells us the hull is wery much bearing its owne loads with frames and stringers controlling form and adding some in strength, but the general load bearing is done by the skin it self. Thereby minimizing the amount of weak spots.
A hull like this has to get a wast amount of damage before collapsing.
And about G loading. G loads shouldnâ´t be a problem for this kind of a hull.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Triggerhappyfin/ace1_copy.bmp
Heads-on firing was not a safe practice after all ?
Jussi Huotari: It was not specially recommendedâ.....
And later, as the Russians were armed with 20mm cannons, it was unwise to meet them heads-on

WWMaxGunz
08-19-2004, 07:16 AM
Plywood was not used for wing spars and main frame members. Those are single
direction grain beams, I've seen generally made of 2 or 3 pieces but not as
thin laminated. The grain runs along the best direction, in spars it runs
crosswise to the loads of drag, gravity and lift. A few holes through those
and the strength of the part is much less and stress will make long cracks
which may be followed by complete fracture of the part. The rest of the
structure may keep the load from becoming critical but when there's a weak
spot on a load bearing member with a load, failure comes with a snap. Ditto
for metal except the mechanisms may be different and the strength of the
metal is much greater per cross sectional area and weight used. Cracks in
metal under load, even tiny ones weaken it terribly then it snaps too.

People still make wooden planes or at least they did here, and not just home
builts. They use metal brackets and some parts but the main members are wood.
The kits made from wood, the plans say they can take 8 G's or more. How long
they last or what maintenance is needed long term I don't know.

Triggerhappy, the Albatross series WWI fighters used monocoque shells and it
was said they could absorb more damage than ones made from only stringers.

Have you ever thought of going from boats to planes, even a small one? I bet
you could do it with friends to help! Better than a plane if you go with very
light is rotorcraft, an autogyro. They don't get thrown around the sky so bad
when the wind kicks up. You might even find a rotorcraft with floats?


Neal

p1ngu666
08-19-2004, 09:29 AM
didnt the i16 have metal wing spar(s)?
metal leading edge, and the rear fabric covered

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

jeroen_R90S
08-19-2004, 11:01 AM
*absorbing new knowledge*

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jeroen

==============================
Ah you LaGG, my lightened LaGG,
why don't you wish to fly?
Over the wild Black Sea water
your cockpit you made me leave.

LLv34_Stafroty
08-22-2004, 03:20 AM
about mg17 7,92mm machine gun, it was able to penetrate 800mm dry plywood from 100m distance, in game it is not almost able to penetrate deltawood at all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif at least it feels like it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

triggerhappyfin
08-22-2004, 04:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
about mg17 7,92mm machine gun, it was able to penetrate 800mm dry plywood from 100m distance, in game it is not almost able to penetrate deltawood at all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif at least it feels like it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


As I mentioned above, the hull prolly carries its own loads. So punchin a hole or several in it doesnâ´t weaken it enough to make it collapse.

There is another issue firing on I-16 and I-153 that bothers me more.
In RL they where known to catch fire quit easily, and did so in original IL-2.

Now a days fires in those planes are rarities.

Once upon time a burst from low six on these planes made them catch fire or even explode. A fact stated by Oleg Maddox himself.
Manouverability beeing their salvation.

Now they have both armour all over them, manouverability and loads of ammo http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Actually I donâ´t care witch way is accurate, only thing thats impotant for me is that statement of Oleg Maddox about him caring about historical accuracy.

I bought the game on those facts.
Beeing aware of that sort of comitement takes some tweaking on the game to achieve, but when things get twisted all around - one begin to think.

This wasnâ´t meant as a whining - a label too often attached to postings not beeing mainstream.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Triggerhappyfin/ace1_copy.bmp
Heads-on firing was not a safe practice after all ?
Jussi Huotari: It was not specially recommendedâ.....
And later, as the Russians were armed with 20mm cannons, it was unwise to meet them heads-on

triggerhappyfin
08-22-2004, 06:16 AM
Interesting about wood (http://search.eb.com/normandy/video/onormay127v1.mov)

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Triggerhappyfin/ace1_copy.bmp
Heads-on firing was not a safe practice after all ?
Jussi Huotari: It was not specially recommendedâ.....
And later, as the Russians were armed with 20mm cannons, it was unwise to meet them heads-on

Aaron_GT
08-24-2004, 05:45 AM
"Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
about mg17 7,92mm machine gun, it was able to penetrate 800mm dry plywood from 100m distance, in game it is not almost able to penetrate deltawood at all at least it feels like it "

I think the DM is probably an attempt to model the ability of the structures to absorb damage and still retain structural integrity rather than repel the damage.

We're missing some of the tendency of the wooden planes to catch fire, plus the interaction of damage and structural integrity, probably.

WWMaxGunz
08-24-2004, 09:57 AM
In game MG-17's have no incendiary bullets....

That still doesn't say the wood planes catch fire just so
but at least it does show that from MG-17's as modelled it
is reasonable not to without making engine/electric fire.


Neal

LLv34_Stafroty
08-24-2004, 03:08 PM
would be nice to be able to light up fuel at least. same with cannon ammo. not very often that happens in game. try taking friendly B17G and shoot it with 109G2 cannon in wing root, u get fuel leak but no fire, no matter how hard you hit it. same with other planes too.

WWMaxGunz
08-24-2004, 04:19 PM
Last time I shot up B-17's was 2.0, as enemy with 190-A5 151/20's. They were like
Zippo lighters, lit up every time even with few hits but unlike Zippo there was some
delay from strike to flame. Didn't hit wing root, just from outboard engines in the
fire would start about at engine. Maybe those were engine fires spreading?


Neal

LLv34_Stafroty
08-24-2004, 04:29 PM
sure it will light up there, but not at wingroot, and that was the question. try QMB and u notice it.

Ugly_Kid
08-24-2004, 04:41 PM
Somewhere you will notice that there is a specific weight for the airframe. The larger the aircraft gets the easier it is to reach a smaller wingloading...sort of (within reason). The relative wingloading vs. size gives you an idea how much material was used to reach the task...wood, composite, steel, does not really matter heavy construction like P-47 is damage tolerant per definition but there's no way to tell that butterfly stuff like yak has similar strength/robustness...If Jug is a 30 mm job Yak is relatively a fraction of 20 mm job...(1.4 20 mm hits in average were required for downing a yak - I've heard and this from russian tests)

http://people.freenet.de/hausberg/oksennus_1.jpg

[This message was edited by Ugly_Kid on Wed August 25 2004 at 01:11 AM.]

LLv34_Stafroty
08-25-2004, 11:54 PM
agreed UKid

Aaron_GT
08-26-2004, 03:18 AM
"The larger the aircraft gets the easier it is to reach a smaller wingloading...sort of (within reason)."

Er... it should be the reverse. In general the surface area of a body will increase with the square of the linear size, and the mass with the cube of the linear size. To fight this tendency you have to increase the wing area more rapidly compared to the linear size as the size increases, meaning you hit limits on the ability to create a large wing that is self supporting (not to mention issues with induced drag from a large wing).

LLv34_Stafroty
08-26-2004, 06:14 AM
hmm, what did i agree :P

meatcookie-x
08-26-2004, 03:14 PM
really interesting stuff
makes me wonder again what difference (if any) modern advanced composites might've made.
Then again, I'm the same guy that watched Band of Brothers and thought to himself "Man...what a difference modern comms gear and some M4/M-203's woulda made."

WWMaxGunz
08-26-2004, 03:23 PM
Not to forget night vision devices, any kind.

Irish_JG26
02-01-2005, 09:10 AM
S~

I am courious about the Deltawood resistance to 20mm cannon? Was this due to the cannon fuse failing to trigger on impact, which allows the unexpolded round to then pass through with less damage?

I would expect that no wood of any kind is going to avoid penetration by 20mm cannon or the smaller ball ammo of the MG's. Still, I would have expected both cannon ammo and the armor piercing incendiary of the MG's to still pierce things like fuel tanks, oil coolers, radiators, etc. Plus any cannon rounds that hit such harder objects should explode.

One thing that I learned from both 8th airforce writtings and Luftwaffe technical data was that German 20mm cannon rounds and maybe the 30mm rounds as well had a time delay fuse and that they exploded in air after a set distance even if they did not hit anyting. I see this in some the the IL2 ground based small caliber flak that explodes at about 2700m but wondered if it was also applied to air to air guns?

I thought not until reading flight crew accounts from B17 flight crew members in Europe who claimed to see rounds from FW190's exploding near them at 25,000ft they were well above the range of 20mm flak guns. Anyone else hear of this?

I figured a German armorer got cute and loaded the wing guns with flak ammo with time fuses?

Irish

OldMan____
02-01-2005, 09:23 AM
About wood. You must keep in mind aluminum is more vulnerable to fire!!

Wood start get on fire at fairly low temperatures.. some treated wood resist more than 600 degrees celcius. But after it takes on fire it generates not ver much heat. So it is easy to put out fire on wood (like with wind flow over wings)


Aluminum has a very high activation temperatures, in other words will catch fire at high temepratures. But afetr it get on fire NOTHING UNDER GOD CREATION creates more heat while on fire!!! It is almost impossible to put aluminum fire out by simple heat dissipation.


Incendiary ammo is made of phosphorous and alluminum dust to exactly put alluminum on fire!!


I just talked to a Metalurgic Engineer here at work to clarify that.

fherathras
02-01-2005, 10:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by triggerhappyfin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
_Delta wood is basically birch faner that is painted with tar._ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This I doubt very strongly!!

Not the birch veneer bit, but the tar business &lt;img src="http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" alt="VeryHappy" width="16" height="16"&gt;&lt;!--graemlin::veryhappy:--&gt;.

During time of ww2 there were no epoxi, but they sure got a lot of other types of resin.
Highly water and boilproof.

Making a hull in this technique makes it very strong and lightweight. Iâ´ve made hulls for sailyachts of 35" of lenght - two men were able to lift the hull by there owne force!!!



<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



woW!



my 35 foot boat weighs like 8 and a half tonne!

Dean_Clean
02-01-2005, 04:28 PM
The Delta wood was used for structural, internal items. The squadron book is not describing Delta wood. It is describing Shpon wood skinning process, which is different then Delta wood.

crazyivan1970
02-01-2005, 05:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
about mg17 7,92mm machine gun, it was able to penetrate 800mm dry plywood from 100m distance, in game it is not almost able to penetrate deltawood at all at least it feels like it
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

800mm of plywood? Put that wiskey down Staf http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Lewicide
02-01-2005, 08:40 PM
Balsa for lightness + Viagra for hardness, used to make fuselages bullet proof. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Marc-David
02-02-2005, 03:51 AM
Lets say 80mm instead of 800? OK? How broad was the hull of a I-16? In a 109, it's simply one shee t of formed Dural-Aluminium over some spars (hope my english is sufficient to communicate this....) I think, that Alu-planes should be easier to fabricate, once the Plain Alu is refined: Simply cut and form it via a machine and put it on your plane. No long cutting and glueing.
IIRC, the object viewer (TM) states in the IL-2 section, that as soos as Alu was available, important (wood) parts of the IL-2 were changed at once to Alu... Maybe there was at least some reason behind it... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yours, MD

Just my thoughts.

jurinko
02-02-2005, 04:52 AM
http://www.scitech.sk/~jurinko/yak_dm02.JPG

so THIS is FBâ´s delta wood...

if you remember the interview with mjr. Kozhemyako which Ivan posted here recently, he told

"if one 20mm HE hits the Yak, well.. the plywood would fly in all directions and one has to bail out, canâ´t fly much with missing surfaces"

anarchy52
02-02-2005, 05:40 AM
Some people would say that delta wood is a lame excuse, a cover story for mistakes in DM...

I didn't say I'm one of them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWMaxGunz
02-02-2005, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marc-David:
Lets say 80mm instead of 800? OK? How broad was the hull of a I-16? In a 109, it's simply one shee t of formed Dural-Aluminium over some spars (hope my english is sufficient to communicate this....) I think, that Alu-planes should be easier to fabricate, once the Plain Alu is refined: Simply cut and form it via a machine and put it on your plane. No long cutting and glueing.
IIRC, the object viewer (TM) states in the IL-2 section, that as soos as Alu was available, important (wood) parts of the IL-2 were changed at once to Alu... Maybe there was at least some reason behind it... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yours, MD

Just my thoughts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't know about metal planes. Nothing simply about it, the forming process is a high
specialty. There is also more understructure than ribs. Thin but you wouldn't want to
get beat on with it. Easier to do the wood, easier still to do fabric which is still done
in isolated places.

Look for what happened to VVS wood planes in warm to hot and key; humid places. Mold got
in, or something very like. How long it took I don't know but long term they did not
last. Also I don't know if it was the delta wood or not but expect not. Delta wood was
made at high temperature and high pressure to get the plastic (bakelite resin?) deeply
into the wood. I dunno how that compares to the better quality marine plywood of today
but from what we've been shown they just don't make plywood that strong any more. It's
probably because sheet metal works better and lasts longer or you go straight to glass
or carbon and foam composites.

JG5_UnKle
02-02-2005, 11:50 AM
Yep delta wood was so good that they built the La-9 out of.....

Oh hang on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

triggerhappyfin
02-02-2005, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marc-David:
Lets say 80mm instead of 800? OK? How broad was the hull of a I-16? In a 109, it's simply one shee t of formed Dural-Aluminium over some spars (hope my english is sufficient to communicate this....) I think, that Alu-planes should be easier to fabricate, once the Plain Alu is refined: Simply cut and form it via a machine and put it on your plane. No long cutting and glueing.
IIRC, the object viewer (TM) states in the IL-2 section, that as soos as Alu was available, important (wood) parts of the IL-2 were changed at once to Alu... Maybe there was at least some reason behind it... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yours, MD

Just my thoughts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't know about metal planes. Nothing simply about it, the forming process is a high
specialty. There is also more understructure than ribs. Thin but you wouldn't want to
get beat on with it. Easier to do the wood, easier still to do fabric which is still done
in isolated places.

Look for what happened to VVS wood planes in warm to hot and key; humid places. Mold got
in, or something very like. How long it took I don't know but long term they did not
last. Also I don't know if it was the delta wood or not but expect not. Delta wood was
made at high temperature and high pressure to get the plastic (bakelite resin?) deeply
into the wood. I dunno how that compares to the better quality marine plywood of today
but from what we've been shown they just don't make plywood that strong any more. It's
probably because sheet metal works better and lasts longer or you go straight to glass
or carbon and foam composites. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dug this old tread out again, huh?

Look at the film I included in one of the earlier replys I made in this thread.

I suppose the technique were used during the war out of economical reasons.

Todays use of metall sheeting suites the sciense side of construction well as wooden construction is difficult to calculate on due to the great amount of variables present in using wood as material.

All "dead" materials are quite easy to calculate on and make static tests on from which usable formulas can be taken.

When asking scientists about formulas used in wooden construction, the answer will be: "there areâ´nt none with any accuracy". There is the reason why all metall constructions developed to meet the aerodynamical calculations and the power plant specifications.

All metal constructions meet the specifications well time after an other. Suites mass production well and costs are easy to calculate.

Allthough "delta wood" or "cross laminated wood" as it should be called still is a modern method of producing hulls for many purposes.

But easy to do? Well..try it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aaron_GT:"Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
about mg17 7,92mm machine gun, it was able to penetrate 800mm dry plywood from 100m distance, in game it is not almost able to penetrate deltawood at all at least it feels like it "

I think the DM is probably an attempt to model the ability of the structures to absorb damage and still retain structural integrity rather than repel the damage.

We're missing some of the tendency of the wooden planes to catch fire, plus the interaction of damage and structural integrity, probably.[QUOTE]</span>

Now were talkin http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

triggerhappyfin
02-02-2005, 01:42 PM
What bother me most is I-16 not cathing fire as easy it should and that goes for I-153 too.

As you can see in pics below the pilot has the gas tank right in front of him and right around him in I-153! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Triggerhappyfin/I16-2.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Triggerhappyfin/153-1.jpg


Those tanks were not self sealing even http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

I want them flammable! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

WWMaxGunz
02-02-2005, 11:29 PM
Sorry if I seem to say that doing a good job at any of it is easy because it's not.
And with wood, since down through the ages it has been a high skill craft just to
select and align pieces right in terms of quality and grain. Old ship builders did
look for certain pieces where grain bent around (branch and main root at the bole)
just for certain spots like stern keel and what, but they didn't have modern glues
and sealants.
Dad had a set of the old Audels' guides from his father, handed down. My older brother
has them, now his son but yes I had my nose in those a lot as my field of study was
manufacture and design for a good many years, also my brother before me except he
stayed where I got into computers. But I did study and work at it more than a few
years.

Yeah the metal is easier to work consistent but it can be consisently screwed up too.
You can warp either one. Metal stretches, especially thin metal when it's pulled or
beat, the bane of auto body workers because it doesn't snap back. But then the same
property makes shaping it more choices than a single sheet of wood or at least much
quicker done, less work. Wood cracks if you mistreat it but it has wonderful properties
metal doesn't when treated right. Eventually you can get there with wood all grain
aligned and crossed, or you can just cut and shape big pieces like making rifle stocks
and still get most of the strength... that technology predated mass metalworking here
in the US AFAIK.
Metal done wrong also cracks or places bad stresses, good design is not easy. Both
require knowledge of the material properties and techniques to get strong and light
products made from. Any hack can make strong and heavy, no?

And what you do with the boat hulls is on the level of modern composites... you get
the birch in sheets or rolls? It comes perpared, uniform thickness, quality and grain?
Very thin? What you glue it with soaks well in and makes strength? You wrote before
that glass is less strong for the weight and you should know as you tried it out!
That did surprise me a bit, I thought the glass was at least close if done right.
Too bad graphite cloth and the like isn't 100x cheaper, huh?
I never asked, but what kind of structuring is the frame you lay the birch weave
over? Or should I say, layer the birch over? There is some kind of frame, yes?
30 foot boat maybe 200 kilos or less and good for the sea... that is good design!

triggerhappyfin
02-03-2005, 11:48 AM
The loads in all metall construction are taken care of with spars bulkheads and stringers, while a cross laminated wooden construction takes care of the loads within the laminate it self. The need of internal framing is minimal.

To make such a hull collapse, where to hit it with single piercing bullets? A major damage has to be achieved.

To quote Mjr Kozhemyako:"if one 20mm HE hits the Yak, well.. the plywood would fly in all directions and one has to bail out, canâ´t fly much with missing surfaces"

Perhaps the disturbed airfoil made these wooden aircraft unflyable?

Records from war tells about bursts fired from low six hitting area in front of pilot made the I-16 and I-153 catch fire or even explode.

The durability of "delta wood" is a fact but the impossibility to to lit them up is an annoying thing.


<span class="ev_code_RED">I never asked, but what kind of structuring is the frame you lay the birch weave</span>

Itâ´s usually a male former made of ribs over frames. Then layers of veneer is applayed crosswise over it and temporarily stabled while resin cures.
For cosmetics the outer layers can be applayed aft to fore. Cheaper materials(veneers) can be used as filler in the inner layers. The thickness of veneers are usually 1.5-3.2mm. How wide they can be made are depending on curvature of the hull.

Itâ´s cleener, nicer and less smelly work compared with GRP. The result of a wooden hull is beauty for ones eyes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

WWMaxGunz
02-03-2005, 04:09 PM
I don't think I've ever heard of a plane without a main spar in the wings.
Okay, there is a "plane" that uses one of those rectangular parachutes, but it don't count.

Seriously... unless it is something modern to the last 40 years (probably 30) and very
experimental, and even then -- what real full size plane made of anything has no spars?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Envy over your boats there, even just the building of them.
The ribs stay in, yes?

Some time look and see if you can find pictures and construction of the Native American
Birchbark Canoes. I think they are still made in my home state of Maine on "Indian Land"
there. My father saw one back in the 30's once. The framing is birch or ash or both
and a work of great skill, skinned over in peeled white birch bark then stitched in
place and all sealed in pitch resin which I dunno how they cook it or what they do but
they were doing it before they had metal pots, knives or axes. And one of those canoes
is light enough for one person to carry.

Philipscdrw
02-03-2005, 04:39 PM
Mmm - wooden aircraft...

triggerhappyfin
02-04-2005, 04:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
I don't think I've ever heard of a plane without a main spar in the wings.
Okay, there is a "plane" that uses one of those rectangular parachutes, but it don't count.

Seriously... unless it is something modern to the last 40 years (probably 30) and very
experimental, and even then -- what real full size plane made of anything has no spars?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Envy over your boats there, even just the building of them.
<span class="ev_code_RED">The ribs stay in, yes?</span>
Some time look and see if you can find pictures and construction of the Native American
Birchbark Canoes. I think they are still made in my home state of Maine on "Indian Land"
there. My father saw one back in the 30's once. The framing is birch or ash or both
and a work of great skill, skinned over in peeled white birch bark then stitched in
place and all sealed in pitch resin which I dunno how they cook it or what they do but
they were doing it before they had metal pots, knives or axes. And one of those canoes
is light enough for one person to carry. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_RED">Not nescerrilly...</span> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The wings on I-16 wasnt a delta wood construction. Only the hull. Look at the blueprint above.

triggerhappyfin
02-06-2005, 09:28 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Triggerhappyfin/aviation-Squadron-Signal-WalkAroundn15-Mosquito0041.jpg

Found a pic showing inside mossies hull, no stringers no spars http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWMaxGunz
02-06-2005, 12:53 PM
Nice picture but do you really think that the main wing spar would run through the
aft fuselage?
But hey the structure and strength of that hull without ribs... I see that.
Did you know that the WWI Albatross fighters had hulls also without ribs or frame?
Or at least without much ribs. It was a weave at least partly. The method called
monocoque was fairly heavy compared to frame and cloth but more able to take bullet
holes and still hold up.

How thick you think that rear fuselage was? And those planes were light, yes?

LeadSpitter_
02-06-2005, 09:14 PM
selfsealing tanks still did not help much from explosive or incideary rounds.

It was more for flak burst shrapnel or light ground fire to save fuel if the tank was hit. Even the flak would cause fuel fires on selfsealing tanks if the shrapnel was hot enough to ignite it.

The high octane fuels of wwii where much more explosive and flameable the later korean war jet fuels which had much much higher heat tolerances.

LEXX_Luthor
02-06-2005, 10:22 PM
Over at simhq, Ian Boys is translating a Yak pilot's interview.

I read the whole thing through BabelFish website translator, and...lol...

They had a LaGG~3 crash on takeoff and the fuselage broke in two, and the pilots walked
over and for the first time could see inside the LaGG...pilot said they were disgusted when they
saw the whole thing entirely of the tree (as BabelFish put it)...that was funny when I read it.

WWMaxGunz
02-07-2005, 04:57 AM
LS, gas does not explode though. Gas and oxygen do. Some planes, many really, had systems
to pump CO2 or cooled exhaust gasses (VVS) into the tanks to avert having gas/air mix in
the tanks. But a big hole and/or leaks and the space inside the plane, outside the tank
itself does become a fire happening or a bomb waiting for the spark... something we don't
get in the game but now a lot of scenes from that 1968 BoB movie are making sense. Yes,
a movie so it's no proof but watch if you haven't and take it for what it is... effort to
hold to history was not lax in that one although it is not a documentary. Lots of empty
space in the wings and not hard to figure that the tanks being inside, not all the leaked
fuel is going straight out through the bullet holes, so I wonder?

LBR_Rommel
02-08-2005, 07:23 PM
You silly ppl, NASA use Delta wood in the space Shuttle. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

LEXX_Luthor
02-08-2005, 08:25 PM
Also, Space Shuttle made of the foam.....or was. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

LBR_Rommel
02-09-2005, 08:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Also, Space Shuttle made of the foam.....or was. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also the black part of the space shuttle is made of ceramic, but, anyway, how thick this delta "fantasy" wood must be to be bullet proof???

triggerhappyfin
02-09-2005, 11:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LBR_Rommel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Also, Space Shuttle made of the foam.....or was. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also the black part of the space shuttle is made of ceramic, but,<span class="ev_code_RED"> anyway, how thick this delta "fantasy" wood must be to be bullet proof???</span> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It isâ´nt bullet proof and never was intended to be http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

LBR_Rommel
02-09-2005, 12:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by triggerhappyfin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LBR_Rommel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Also, Space Shuttle made of the foam.....or was. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also the black part of the space shuttle is made of ceramic, but,<span class="ev_code_RED"> anyway, how thick this delta "fantasy" wood must be to be bullet proof???</span> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It isâ´nt bullet proof and never was intended to be http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh Cmon, no need to lie... that thing is canon bullet proof and G proof too.

triggerhappyfin
02-09-2005, 02:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LBR_Rommel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by triggerhappyfin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LBR_Rommel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Also, Space Shuttle made of the foam.....or was. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also the black part of the space shuttle is made of ceramic, but,<span class="ev_code_RED"> anyway, how thick this delta "fantasy" wood must be to be bullet proof???</span> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It isâ´nt bullet proof and never was intended to be http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh Cmon, no need to lie... that thing is canon bullet proof and G proof too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, Well...I sorta lied http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Fehler
02-09-2005, 11:22 PM
Delta Wood is Tree Ent.

Soylent Green is People!

BlackStar2000
02-10-2005, 04:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Delta Wood is Tree Ent.

Soylent Green is People! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then fly the Bullet proof tree is not ecological correct? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif