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View Full Version : why did you close MK108 thread Crazyivan?



LLv34_Stafroty
08-19-2004, 10:43 AM
would want to know... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

LLv34_Stafroty
08-19-2004, 10:43 AM
would want to know... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

jeroen_R90S
08-19-2004, 10:57 AM
After reading the last page objectively I'm actually amazed to see a post like this! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

Jeroen

==============================
Ah you LaGG, my lightened LaGG,
why don't you wish to fly?
Over the wild Black Sea water
your cockpit you made me leave.

crazyivan1970
08-19-2004, 11:10 AM
Stafroty, please re-read the post and especially your comments. That will explain it all.

Cheers.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/band.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

LLv34_Stafroty
08-19-2004, 11:30 AM
why just not edit the dirty part away? or was it the excuse you wanted to close it up? :P

so, ur not my honeybunny after all :P

LLv34_Stafroty
08-19-2004, 11:32 AM
with the sweet spot i did not mean that its sweet to rip ppl with cannon or neighter see it to happen. i really am against that, like i am against war/violense. i prefer peace and happines and some other things which i dont mention in here, some know those from hyperlobby http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

crazyivan1970
08-19-2004, 11:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
so, ur not my honeybunny after all :P<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/band.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

CHDT
08-19-2004, 12:01 PM
Wouldn't it be better to simply delete the bad posts and leave the topic live rather than to kill the whole topic?

Too often, a few people with (not so well) hidden agendas jump on interesting topics with offensive posts, just to avoid that a post come to conclusions not confortable to them and waiting this way for a topic closing!

crazyivan1970
08-19-2004, 12:47 PM
When i have time i might clear it up... 50% of it useless IMO.

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

LLv34_Stafroty
08-19-2004, 01:22 PM
that is their tactics they use, sad but it is working. we should use same thing againt things they want in this sim. go there to troll with empty claims. let see how happy they are then.
at least i would stfu if i would not have anything to say but mumble.

Obi_Kwiet
08-19-2004, 01:46 PM
That vid has beeen going around the internet for awhile. It had the first 30 sec chopped off to make the guys look like civillians. The choped off part shows the Iraqi's setting artillary up. That woudned guy would have died any way. He would have just had to lay there for hours, in pain if they haden't got him.

LLv34_Stafroty
08-19-2004, 02:36 PM
ok, thx for explainin Kwiet. havent seen the directors cut version myself. its still bit ugly to see humans go in pieces. war is hell.

well, anyway, would be really nice if you do clear the MK108 threat Ivan.

BBB_Hyperion
08-19-2004, 05:23 PM
At least Stafroty did some research about the Subject .) . Btw you dont have a pressure peak plot for mk108 Stafroty cause that is what i need for simulating the explosion process and i dont know how the walls of the bullets act on the distribution angle of the shookwave.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

[This message was edited by BBB_Hyperion on Fri August 20 2004 at 04:34 AM.]

karost
08-20-2004, 08:32 AM
LLv34_Stafroty , you do your job good for your information

and that tactic is work too... same as you said that's not bad right ?

three years I join this community becuase I meet a lot of good friends share his good knowledge , good idea , good experience to each other. but seem number of this good friends become less small and small I don't know why.

may be I have to drop my visit here for a weeks and help a new friends in GD same as I was help by old friends here three years ago. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

sorry for my bad english

S!

[This message was edited by karost on Fri August 20 2004 at 07:40 AM.]

Blutarski2004
08-20-2004, 08:32 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
..... and i dont know how the walls of the bullets act on the distribution angle of the shookwave.
/QUOTE]


..... Good question. One possible hint might be found in examining the distribution of projectile fragments in the detonation of an artillery shell. The large majority of fragments and explosive force is laterally distributed in a 360 degree fan perpendicular to the long axis of the projectile. In addition, the nose fuze is aggressively projected forward and the base of the projectile is weakly projected to the rear. This behavior presumably corresponds to the gas pressure of the detonation following the path of least resistance when rupturing the projectile casing. My ballistic ammunition performance manual has a number of blast distribution diagrams and this behavior remains consistent among a wide variety of high explosive artillery, mortar and auto-cannon shells.

M-Geschoss rounds are comparitively thin walled, but I suspect that they would behave in a broadly similar fashion.

Hope this helps.

BLUTARSKI

LLv34_Stafroty
08-20-2004, 01:40 PM
hello again. just dropped in for quickie http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

i had this thing going in my mind all nite long, and i had one funny question in my mind. you guys remember the Stuka wing which was hitted by AAA fire on mission?? (not sure if it was stuka) well, what was the caliberof that AAA round which made hole on wing which is much bigger than human head?
would like to know HE amount and what He stuff was used in that time on those AAA rounds. then i would like to compare that amount to MK108 MG round HE amount with explosive table with mathematical formulas to count which had more blast effect. as you can see in that picture, there is MUCH blast effect damage on wing. and Stuka had IMO really sturdy wing because it was dive bomber and the wing had to handle quite many G:s. then i would like to know what happens to fighter which takes same AAA round on its wing, i am quite sure that the fighter could not handle to damage.

in finland-russian war, when russia got P39:s with 37mm cannon. (those 37mm He ammo had much and much weaker He stuff inside em) well, one finnish 109 was hit in tail fuselage with one of those, pilot noticed the hit right away and headed at home, he landed and when he was on slow speed taxiin, the plane collapsed from hit section becouse the speed could not carry the tail and wings anymore,so the tail had to carry the weight of the plane. so how was that possible with much lesser round than MK108?

LBR_Rommel
08-20-2004, 04:43 PM
S!

Plz CrazyIvan if you close a topica because semo people bahave like idiot, plz punish the idiots what you are doing now is punishing all, soon nobody will alowed say nothing here because some stupid people.

Major LBR=Rommel

http://www.luftwaffebrasil.com
http://www.luftwaffebrasil.hpg.ig.com.br/rommel_ban.jpg

crazyivan1970
08-20-2004, 04:53 PM
Relax people, i said i`ll re-open it. When this board works properly. Gahh....

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/band.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

BBB_Hyperion
08-20-2004, 05:43 PM
Here is something i used for some data.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/dam_crit/dam_crit.htm

But i still need this table
dynamic pressure vs. range curve for a reference explosion (1 kg TNT).

To get unguessed results.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

LLv34_Stafroty
08-20-2004, 06:11 PM
LBR_Rommel, you want to get stupid ppl out from this thread, so i understand it that you want me outta this threat.

BBB_Hyperion, im in conditition now in which i canÔ┬┤t understand alot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif been celebrating bit http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

dang i love taste of beer.

Airborn_
08-20-2004, 07:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LBR_Rommel:

S!

Plz CrazyIvan if you close a topica because semo people bahave like idiot, plz punish the idiots what you are doing now is punishing all, soon nobody will alowed say nothing here because some stupid people.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That's not entirely correct, although I agree with the statement you are making in general.

It's not that nobody will be allowed to speak up anymore in here, it's just that the foul-players and insulters will be the only ones, allowed to freely dump their verbal excrements in any thread in this forum. Since there seems to be no penalty for insulting other members in here.

Recently, quite a number of insulting b**bs have been active in this forum whose sole purpose seems to have been to insult people based upon their nationality or their criticism of the work of Oleg the Great and the only thing the mod seems to have been capable of is fumble with his thumbs and look the other way. Even worse, there seems to be a highly subjective approach towards possible perpetrators: criticise Oleg or his work and your thread is closed, you're being insulted by the resident fancrowd and are implicitely declared an outlaw, so the insulting can go on and worsen over time and will remain, once more, unpunished.

If that is the best the mod in here can come up with then maybe Gibbage was right and perhaps we should call this place "The Toilet" after all. Or we could simply close it down altogether.

In any case: I'm signing off since hanging around in toilets has never really been my thing and I have very little hope of improvement in the near future.

And without a penny for the toiletkeeper I'm afraid.



@LLv34_Stafroty: This is not directed at you, since I don't know you. Cheers.

Korolov
08-20-2004, 08:19 PM
http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/crazyivan_ban.jpg

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_sigp38shark1a.jpg

LBR_Rommel
08-21-2004, 10:49 AM
S!

i think you LLv34_Stafroty dont understand me, its nothing about you, what i mean its ppl can disagree in any subject in this place, what Crazyivan is doing right now its wrong, as i said, he dont let ppl talk about it, some guys bash others, maybe will be the time to ban some bashers who add nothing to any topic, right now Mk108 topic, still closed, it means to me, DISCRIMINATION on Luftwaffe pilots in this place, ppl can talk forever about .50s.

My hope its Oleg and UBI find the diference about ppl who wants to colaborate whit this game and a bunch of brown noses.

Major LBR=Rommel

http://www.luftwaffebrasil.com
http://www.luftwaffebrasil.hpg.ig.com.br/rommel_ban.jpg

LBR-GuntherRall
08-21-2004, 11:11 AM
Good morning & salute!


I already come here the some time, I see the discussions, and opinions, I never went of writing a lot at forums, but after to see and to read the topic of MK 108 I won't stop giving my opinion.

I believe that all who it comes here like a lot of the it loves, and they want to manifest their opinions, and to contribute so that a game already consecrated, be better always.

Good already a lot of thing on the aircrafts of the conflict WW2, and in the subject of weapons the Germans were always in front; to say who already used cannons of 20mm in their hunts thing that alone England made him/it with the spitfire of 1940, The Russians in 1939 is enough used armament light 2 machine guns in I begin it.

If we are simulating aircrafts the closest the possible of the time then here my space questions:

Does a shot of cannon 20 Russian mm have to can more of destruction that a 20 German mm?
No basically... right!
But in it loves seems him that the 20mm Germans have 7.62!Because you shoot, he shoots, he shoots... and the guys don't fall burns her clothes.
While if a LA7 gets right you 1 burst of 2s, and enough to remove you some control of the German aircraft (this la, because I tested)
The same with the machine guns, with 1 Yak 1B (ME) I abated 2 Fw 190 only with the machine guns.... ops machine gun because he only has 1!!!
I inverted then loves put him FW 190F8, and I drained my machine guns in Yak and I didn't drop him!
He has something wrong because the caliber and the same!!!! and the 190 have 2 machine guns!!!

Qto to Mk 108 find an absurdity that with 2 shots of the same, that you/they pulled a motor of B17, and second Martin Drewes was able to ties to destroy a bombardier, and he didn't use them in his/her Schrange musik, because he had to approximate mto of the bombers, and it used Mg 151, and he gave cable of the faces, here in it loves him you has to get right about 4 shots for the wing of 1 Lagg 3 that had wood wings to start!!!! Don't they think he has something wrong oh?

The allies' weapons after this patch are causing mto more damages than the cannons of 30mm of the Germans, and it harmonizes it of shot was not higher tao like this not!

Please repair that oh, and a shame.

As for FM, disparities exist! To each patch, or they worsen the German hunts, or the allies are extremely tuned to the step of 1 IL2 to curve with the 109, and to rotate tao well as a Fw 190, ally if the 110 that it was also solitary his/her potency went like this (that never arrives to 500kmh in straight line that in my opinion and ridiculous) it was to rotate likewise don't agree.

The 190 of the version 1.21, it was 90% correct, oh it was enough some complaints and ready they put a Stone below of the pilot's bank, and the tail done of bamboo!
My largest hope and that you/they correct that.

To conclude, in my opinion, who a bad allied modeled aircraft, or supermodelada flies it doesn't owe if it flatters of yours you acclaim in HL, because the difference and big tao in FM, that the pilot doesn't make the difference, but the airplane; therefore Mr. Oleg, repair these small mistakes, so that ours (opponents) and companions of the virtual skies can have pride to struggle of equal for similar with us.

Ps: don't censure the posts that they want to help the improvement of the it loves....

Bis Bald! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Willey
08-21-2004, 12:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Relax people, i said i`ll re-open it. When this board works properly. Gahh....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It won't http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

Because it's a sucky board software http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

NN_EnigmuS
08-21-2004, 01:34 PM
re-open the 190froward view tread too it was spoiled by some bull****,remove it

http://www.nnavirex.com/public/enigmus.gif

LLv34_Stafroty
08-23-2004, 08:53 PM
ok, more ugly evidence of Blast Effect of Explosives. Lockerpie Plane crash Boeing 747 was brought down with 350g of semtex explosive, which what i believe, is as hard stuff what germans used in MK108 M-geschoss rounds. That explosive was put in Cargo of the plane, and there was PLENTY of room inside the plane, like NOT in fighters we got in this sim, like fuselage, wings etc. so how can 350g of semtex rip BIG hole on fuselage of BIG plane and not on fighter plane of WW2 era? tell me that. link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1998/12/98/lockerbie/235632.stm
video of same size bomb exploded on grounded wreck of B747 : http://plane-truth.com/Recordings/Pan_Am_Bomb_Test_1.mpg

thats 4 times more explosives than in MK108MG
round. so now i want to ask is the MK108 really as it should be??

http://plane-truth.com/images/blowuptest.jpg

and yet again, what happened in lockerie, im really sad about that. but there is useful material which can be used in here too. there is plenty of sites in Net for all to see, so no reason to close this too cos "using dirty tricks"
i am not doing those dirty tricks what happens all around the world, i just use it as material..

lil note: the explosive amount used in film is biger than 350g semtex, just could not find the amount they used on it :/

[This message was edited by LLv34_Stafroty on Mon August 23 2004 at 09:51 PM.]

crazyivan1970
08-23-2004, 10:44 PM
Man...Stafroty you are ps of work lol..

Enigmus, i locked it because thread started asked me to.

V!
Regards,

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http://www.mechmodels.com/images/band.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

WWMaxGunz
08-23-2004, 11:48 PM
Someone needs to read more of the details of the Pan-Am Lockerbie explosion.
Words about mach stem and words about sections of skin peeling off at over 600mph.
Someone should realize that not all explosions are the same except maybe in games
with hit boxes and RPG-style damage models, not even then all games like that.

They ever REALLY find out just how much explosive was used or really, it was only
ever a guess? How much can be said by the people who packed the bomb.


Neal

LLv34_Stafroty
08-24-2004, 01:46 AM
well, they got the man who made the bomb inside toshiba radio, he was prisoned for life.

LLv34_Stafroty
08-24-2004, 02:04 AM
i dont know what you have against Blast effects in game. Germans noticed during Bob that AP rounds aint needed when shootin enemy planes, they realised that with AP ammo you need to hit somethin vital, like pilot or engine to bring plane down (quite small areas of the whole plane) while with HE ammo u just need to hit the plane, to make large holes in it and rip it in pieces, germans quitted using AP ammo in their cannon belts. and started to develop MG ammo for 20mm cannon. why they started to do that if it was not so satisfactory as you look to claim.
.50 cal makes only lil holes on AC frame while cannon tears it.
did you know that germans had tungsten core ammunition for 7,92 machineguns which could penetrate 20mm steel at 100 yards?
normal ammo was able to penetrate 80cm dry plywood and some 5mm steel and 10mm iron.
thats something too, but they quitted using it cos of rarity of tungsten backin 40 or was it 41 on rifle cals.

have you seen when 20mm cannon is fired at something ? seen the power it has compared to puny 12,7mm (.50cal)

WWMaxGunz
08-24-2004, 05:17 PM
Nothing against blast damage. Only that it depends much upon conditions where the
blast takes place. Distances are important to the end effects. Thinwall HE shells
that strike hardened (armor or concrete) surfaces and deform (flatten or dent)
before exploding will have much less effect according to the US Navy testers, read
from FAS DOD-101 site. Does the shell go off inside or outside, more important.
Many factors that all add up to not every hit being the same, not the best example
that can be shown in pictures is all.

I've blown up planes quickly with the Mk 108 so I know it can be done. Did I use
just one or two shots (when every other is MG round, 2 consecutive hits is 1 only
MG explosion while the other is big incendiary flash)? No. I give it 1/2 second
on target and usually, boom the target explodes into debris. So I know the MG
shells are capable of that much.

20mm is 80 calibre. 20mm AP is about 3x 12.7mm in general. 6 or 8 .50's compare
to 2 20mm's as much less? With trajectories as indicated, I would be more concerned
by hits anyway. Which has all shots along the same path? Which has higher ROF?
Which has flatter trajectory?

I do think that blast damage is too little in FB ===BUT=== since I can't show that
it is only opinion. I don't know how it is modelled in detail really. Do you?
Seems is not grounds for making demands of Oleg, he does not model to 'seems'.
Since we don't know how the model is, we have tied hands and the best we can do
is ASK ONLY and hope for a reply. The asking was done years ago, answer was that
it is right.
Hope you can prove but equally hope you can accept the reality may be not what you
expect or desire. Oleg has in the past shown surprising answers that changed the
players understanding (those who could) rather than the sim.

So I give good reasons why the sim may not be as far off as some people say.
Explosives was a long hobby of mine. If money and time had been different then it
may have been my work, or something else in chemistry.


Neal

LLv34_Stafroty
08-24-2004, 06:06 PM
well, there isnt any non critical parts in planes which are armored with steel plates eh? pilot seat armor, possible ammo box container armor, fuel tank armor and maybe some engine cowling armor. in early BoB germans had bit poor fuses in their cannon ammo, which was fixed bit later with delayed fuses.

aout trajectory, its game which models trajectories, they might not be true real life trajectories http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif bullet weight is counted when talking about Armor penetration, douple the weight of ammo and u get douple the penetration while velocity is same. souple the velocity and u got 4 times more penetration when ammo weight is same. russian used bigger and bigger cannons on their tanks in WW2 to get more penetratin and much effective HE grenades with cost of accuracy. Germans went different way, they wanted more velocity, so they got more penetration and accuracy by that (also cannons weared much faster cos high muzzle velocity ammo)but germans did not have as good He grenades, smaller and fuse was hard to work fast enought to blow round right on contact cos of fast speed of round.

now this game is Much KE based on weapon DM model, and it certainly does not favor german cannons at all, cos they did not rely on KE. that make this bit unfair etc.

doesnt sound good if fighter need some half sec burst from 30mm cannon to bring it down.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif thats helluva lots of explosives/incendiary stuff in that long burst http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWMaxGunz
08-25-2004, 10:12 AM
As far as I know and have read for since over 30 years now, penetration goes by KE
which is mass x (speed squared). That's why the Panther 75L71 (if I remember correct
it is 75mm, barrel length 71 x 75mm) was such a hotshot AT gun. Britain went with a
long barrel 77mm (17 pounder?) in the Firefly later on, not sure which was better but
they were both same basic class IMHO.

You check the muzzle velocities and you find the German 20mm's slower by a gap than
the Browning .50's. Almost as fast as the .50's are the UBS 12.7's but with heavier
bullets I think faster at mid to long range. MG shell are less dense than solid or
fragemnt HE, lose speed faster, more curved trajectory.

KE and penetration are good but real destruction is by momentum anyway. When an AP
hit is absorbed by a part, the shock spreads and sometimes things break.

Yes armor stops bullets sometimes. 109 seat armor impervious to 7mm maybe not at all
ranges, like 20 feet back and with the .50's not from close at all. Engine armor is
thinner. Any hits not direct or almost, the armor effective thickness can be approximated
by drawing a line through a cross section of the thickness. Effective thickness =
tangent of impact angle x actual thickness. This has to do with penetrating vector
of the shot being less on angled hits. Shots from behind hitting engine armor must
hit at angle.

German fuse duds did not stop after BoB. Johnson flew home in his shot up P-47 and
pulled like 6 dud 20mm's from the plane according to his account. 6 of 22 hits.
The fuse must impact at some angle or less to ignite. As Butch wrote, this is 30
degrees for a Mk 108 MG round, or maybe he meant all but 30 = 60 degrees I am not
absolutely sure. Ask him or ask Oleg.

German tanks I have read had very superior optics sights to Russian so range... well
better reason to go with highspeed. But it's only useful in open country.

I use 1/2 second to make sure of hits and results. Maybe 1/3 second, I don't use a
stopwatch. In war, you make sure of your kill if you can unless your job is to not
kill for some reason. Escort fighters only needed to drive off attacks for instance,
chasing one plane down for a kill was bad business if the bombers thus went unprotected.
With lots of other escorts then maybe it's okay, or maybe you chase anyway.


Neal

LLv34_Stafroty
08-25-2004, 04:19 PM
armor in 30 degrees is 3 times more effective than in 90degree. but again i wonder why you drag He ammo trajectories in this conversation?
it didnt matter how Flat or curved trajectory was with HE ammo. same goes with HEAT ammo. it always goes off with similar power. and does game model dud ammo? no, like it does not model any other manufacture flaw things. and u think that germans only had dudÔ┬┤s? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

and what comes to Bob Johnson, it just his memoirs and wonder that he simply "pulled out those duds" from his plane, like the dudÔ┬┤s were harmless http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and what kinda dudÔ┬┤s they were, incendiary which has that elecro static fuse, so it goes off only if gets contact with fluig http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif numbers tells it 6 from 22,is that like ~30%.

u know, even .50 cal can be deflected by thin armor plate http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif dig some WW2 penetration from .50cals, and then dig some info too from german 20mm AP penetration and 13mm mg penetration. then compare the penetration value with parts in the plane. how many parts can stop bullet path?? engine is one? next? so those AP rounds just go thru the plane and nothing else, if does not hit anythign important http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWMaxGunz
08-25-2004, 09:09 PM
Trajectory matters when different rounds are all fired by the same gun and range
is far enough for them to seperate more than the height of target spot. Will MG
rounds be along the tracer paths at 200m? Farther? At 100m I expect they are all
close.

No German rounds were not all duds! Most not I believe and surprised about them
in BoB, it would go far helping to explain german losses and the RAF no being
overwhelmed quickly let alone at all. That was desperate times for Britain.

Good point about Johnson probably finding API rounds undetonated, I did not think
of that and should have. Still from close to six on a plane, there is a lot of
close angles. He got hit from the side as well, only pilot armor saved him IIRC.

I have read and it was quoted that 109 seat armor could be penetrated by .50's at
normal ranges.

Even a military rifle 7.62 AP will crack an engine block with a square hit. If
it hits the suspension first, well that gets damaged. .50 is a powerful cartridge
I thnk you confuse with shoulder arms. It is not 20mm (.80 cal) or even 15mm.
20mm is a cannon, I believe the smallest diameter considered so.

Glancing hits, yes a bounce. With angle and surface that is true for all.


Neal

LLv34_Stafroty
08-25-2004, 09:16 PM
and one thing more, 20mm HE round dont have to penetrate engine to make it hurt bad. it has some exetrnal parts like ignition "wires", fuel & oils pipes, and other systems which u also find from car engine http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif dont have enough good english to list those things

and, if .50cal hits something before hitting engine, like supports or something, it does chance course or its flight attitude chanses, like it starts to fly bit "sideways" and that causes it to lose penetration quite alot.

sloped armor is good cos it make KE ammo to lose energy cos armor is pushing it to glance more than let it penetrate (again really poor english problems) well, i hope u understand what i mean.
u should learn to speak Finnish so it would be easier to argue with you :P

WWMaxGunz
08-25-2004, 09:50 PM
Understood. I am too old to learn Finnish without moving to Finland.
Finland is even colder than my hometown in northern Maine (think Sweden,
that is what the Swedish immigrants said when they named New Sweden).
I am not used to so much cold having lived far south in the middle
lattitude of the US. It was worse when I came back from the tropics.

One allied pilot wrote of killing some 190's by putting a few shots
into the front and breaking the oil lines. He could tell because
the oil flashed to engine fire immediately. There is an armor ring
there but it is 1) not covering everything else how does cooling air
get to those oild lines put where they are just to allow cooling and
2) I believe that the ring is 3mm, not much especially when the bullet
velocity has added the difference in speed of two planes coming toward
each other even not directly. Lastly 3) he saw this more than once,
I don't think it was coincidence engine fires.

Again, the 20mm is more hit for hit, about 3x stronger. With fewer
guns and lower ROF I think the difference is not as great overall at
the speeds and ranges of WWII air combat. Later on, the 50's are not
a good solution but even over Korea they were not ineffective as used.


Neal

LLv34_Stafroty
08-25-2004, 11:34 PM
every engine should get on fire when hit in certain places. some are really hard to toast http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif wonder why. and i feel sad that some fighters are almost impossible to put in fire except from engine. why they did use incendiary ammo if it didnt cause any fires?? u can make fuel tanks leak but try to shoot it on fire, impossible in many fighers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif fighters take way too much damage before they go down. like, u have to cut tail or wings to get fighter killed, not many cases u manage to put it on fire http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif i want more fire http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWMaxGunz
08-26-2004, 05:27 AM
Remember IL2 engine damage in the original. Motor would start running bad after
a hit or poor treatment and maybe you make it back, maybe not but for minutes the
thing would run with noises and power loss perhaps getting worse and worse like
the oil was running out slowly. We have since a very detailed 3D engine with
over 20 parts but the action I get is not so detailed.

How often did planes go down in flames and how often to engine stopped? Maybe the
plane type and in one case, I think the LaGGs it was temporary from one factory and
either the manager was shot or prison for switching the varnish to cheap.


Neal

LLv34_Stafroty
08-26-2004, 06:09 AM
do not know which plane types are more vulnerable to catch in fire, but now incendiary ammo seems almost worthless http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
was it brits who tested hispano and german ammo against self sealed fueltanks etc. something like 3-4 from 10 shots were able to lite up the fuel tanks.

Blutarski2004
08-26-2004, 08:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
German fuse duds did not stop after BoB. Johnson flew home in his shot up P-47 and
pulled like 6 dud 20mm's from the plane according to his account. 6 of 22 hits.
The fuse must impact at some angle or less to ignite. Neal<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... The early war problem with German HE projectile fuzes was of a different nature. The fuze was too sensitive, acting instantaneously. This caused a great deal of the destructive force of the projectile to be wasted into the surrounding atmosphere. When this became apparent, a slight delay was introduced into fuze timing which permitted the projectile to physically penetrate a short distance into the airframe before exploding. Damage effect upon the target was thereby improved.

Can't speak on the incidence of duds with the early fuzes. Insufficient data.

BLUTARSKI

Blutarski2004
08-26-2004, 08:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
well, there isnt any non critical parts in planes which are armored with steel plates eh? pilot seat armor, possible ammo box container armor, fuel tank armor and maybe some engine cowling armor. in early BoB germans had bit poor fuses in their cannon ammo, which was fixed bit later with delayed fuses.

aout trajectory, its game which models trajectories, they might not be true real life trajectories http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif bullet weight is counted when talking about Armor penetration, douple the weight of ammo and u get douple the penetration while velocity is same. souple the velocity and u got 4 times more penetration when ammo weight is same. russian used bigger and bigger cannons on their tanks in WW2 to get more penetratin and much effective HE grenades with cost of accuracy. Germans went different way, they wanted more velocity, so they got more penetration and accuracy by that (also cannons weared much faster cos high muzzle velocity ammo)but germans did not have as good He grenades, smaller and fuse was hard to work fast enought to blow round right on contact cos of fast speed of round.

now this game is Much KE based on weapon DM model, and it certainly does not favor german cannons at all, cos they did not rely on KE. that make this bit unfair etc.

doesnt sound good if fighter need some half sec burst from 30mm cannon to bring it down.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif thats helluva lots of explosives/incendiary stuff in that long burst http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



..... Not trying to rais a flame war, but the physics of armor penetration are a great deal more complicated than what you have outlined.

The essential factors are:

(1) cross sectional density of the projectile.
This equals the weight of the projectile in comparison to its cross-sectional area. Larger caliber projectiles by nature have higher cross sectional density values. But this is not always the case, especially when comparing a thin wall HE projectile with a solid AP shot of somewhat lesser caliber.

(2) design of the projectile.
Am AP projectile of course differs considerably in design from normal ball or HE ammunition.

(3) striking velocity.
Armor penetration generally tends to increase in relationship to a mathematical power of the striking velocity, usually somewhat less than the square value. However, this calculation remains somewhat theoretical in the sense that it does not take into account the strength of the projectile, which may be prone to deformation or even shatter when attacking certain types of armor within certain ranges of striking velocity.

(4) striking angle.
Penetration performance very broadly declines as the striking angle departs further from true perpendicular. Up to about 45 degrees, the effective resistance of armor can be assumed to be a bit less than its geometric thickness as presented to the striking projectile. At striking angles greater than 45 degrees penetration becomes very greatly influenced by the nature of the armor under attack and the design of the projectile. Face-hardeded armor tends to give considerably better resistance at extremes angles of attack.

(5) nature of the armor under attack.
There are all sorts of armor materials. The two most commonly found in WW2 aircraft were (and I'm simplifying here) homogeneous steel and face hardened steel. Homogeneous plate is of uniform nature throughout. Face-hardened plate has the side which is to face the enemy specially treated during the manufacturing process to produce a very hard surface. Ideally, this hard (but brittle) face is supported by the back of the plate which remains tough and ductile. The idea is that the hard face will break up or deform the attacking projectile and thus prevent penetration. This works pretty well against projectiles whose caliber is less than the thickness of the armor, but is somewhat inferior when attacked by projectiles of larger caliber. In addition, the proper manufacture of thin face-hardened armor plate was very difficult and often resulted in overly hardened and hence brittle plates which would be prone to shatter (not uncommon in mid-war T34's for example).

The graphs I posted for 50cal AP performance show the difference armor type can make upon AP performance at varying striking angles. Worth a look. If you are interested to explore the wonderful world of guns and armor, do a Google search on "Nathan Okun Guns and Armor".

BLUTARSKI

WWMaxGunz
08-26-2004, 02:50 PM
Thankyou muchly for that lead to the site there, LB!
VERY loaded with all kinds of info, a real find!

Butch! Man! Check that out if you ain't already!

LB, check your PM.


Neal

Blutarski2004
08-26-2004, 03:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Thankyou muchly for that lead to the site there, LB!
VERY loaded with all kinds of info, a real find!

Butch! Man! Check that out if you ain't already!

LB, check your PM.


Neal<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



..... Nathan is a legit physicist who has done something like three decades of research and analysis on this topic. You can rely on his work.

BTW, now that I think of it, Nathan has done some work on the formulaic relationship between HE detonations and high-tensile steel deck armor which MIGHT give some clues regarding our current German M-Geschoss discussions.

re PM, looks really interesting. Now where did I put my Zig-Zags?

..... ;-)

BLUTARSKI

LLv34_Stafroty
08-26-2004, 10:28 PM
wonder what Mgshoss has to do with armor penetrating, it didnt need to penetrate armor, all what was enought was it to penetrate plane skin and explode there. of course HE ammo did not have GOOD penetration against armor, especially Mgeshoss ammo with thin shell, normal HE had some cos thicker shell, but not anyway near pure AP ammo values. Mgeshoss relayed on it Blast effect and that way destroyin plane by rippin skin and supports away, while normal relayed bit on blast effect and much on fragment effects, it just was not effective as was Mgeshoss.

WWMaxGunz
08-26-2004, 10:53 PM
Deck plates are thin compared to naval shells, like plane skin to 20mm. And there might
be equations for explosions after piercing compartments, maybe. The amount of data and
science there is into a volume size reference. I brushed through just the miscellaneous
actually looking for HE data and hoo-boy the stuff is packed dense, bring a chisel. I
got a good ways down before realizing it's all through there, covers approaches and
applications in steady 1,2,3 manner of where and how hit/what happens plus formulae and
more discussion on meanings of those. So yes, there may be something useful. Only
question is does Oleg already have data as or more detailed?

LB -- you got anything for those leaves? I haven't in a long, long time. So the show
is for me the whole trip and it works even without. But papers? Think of that ace, I
think he flew a P-38 in the Pacific and ran up a record score. Richard ----. Good luck!


Neal

LLv34_Stafroty
08-27-2004, 01:11 AM
back to main point. 30mm Mgeshoss packed enought punch to rip planes easily. 1-2 hits on fighter sized plane was enough. of course the hit should be in wing/fuselage. some rudder or elevator are different case.
in this game, there isnt any other ammo with such high load of HE inside of em like 30mm Mgeshoss had.
it had ~same amount of He stuff inside of it what hand grenades has. if anyone have been throwing those or something equilevant and blown things up understands what powers it has, imaginate what it does inside a plane structure.

Blutarski2004
08-27-2004, 08:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
back to main point. 30mm Mgeshoss packed enought punch to rip planes easily. 1-2 hits on fighter sized plane was enough. of course the hit should be in wing/fuselage. some rudder or elevator are different case.
in this game, there isnt any other ammo with such high load of HE inside of em like 30mm Mgeshoss had.
it had ~same amount of He stuff inside of it what hand grenades has. if anyone have been throwing those or something equilevant and blown things up understands what powers it has, imaginate what it does inside a plane structure.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



..... No one disagrees with you, Stafroty. Blast effects of M-Geschoss type ammunition IMO are under-modelled in FB - probably because the damage model is focused upon fragmentation effects and ignores blast effects, as has been theorized in various threads.

The whole exercise here is to find a way to reliably and scientifically QUANTIFY the blast damage effect of 20mm and 30mm M-Geschoss ammunition in a way that will satisfy Oleg. Oleg demands numbers and not colorful descriptions. Of course, the numbers are more difficult to produce than the colorful descriptions.

Nathan Okun is one of the VERY few sources on the web who actually knows what he is talking about in regard to this sort of stuff. Although he is primarily focused upon naval weapons and ship armor, a certain amount of his work might be useful in the investigation of our particular subject of interest. Complaining alone is not going to influence Oleg.

Does this make any sense to you at all? Am I getting through to you?

BLUTARSKI

WWMaxGunz
08-27-2004, 12:13 PM
Steilhandgranate 24 contained 165g explosives. Different explosive were used as developed.

Einhandgranate 43 contained 112g explosives and is the one equivalented in a previous post
by multiplying MG round explosive effect by some value. There was an Ei-Hdgr. 39 as well.
Both were smaller grenades.

If the St-Hdgr 24 was packed with better and better explosives as the war proceeded then
what about the Ei-Hdgr's? I won't even compare the late-war German grenades with the
concrete and metal pieces.

Checking the FAS DoD-101 site I see that thicker casings did allow for better internal
explosion dynamics as well so it's not just how much and how good the explosives are.
There is also the processing, purity and crystal size of the explosive mix which is
genearlly melted and poured into casings. Slower cooling generally results in larger
crystals at least in metals and other crystals I've ever dealt with, read or heard of.
Thickwall, thinwall, cooling... depends on the process used.

That's a big claim calling a 30mm shell equal to 'a grenade'. Powerful, yes, and it
'seems strongly' to be undermodelled, the results are telling and hopefully that alone
will be enough to get something changed, but I already know from past history of patches
and what gets done that overblowing a case argued generally results in having the issue
ignored. If the noise drowns the data then the signal does not get through.

Tony Williams places 151/20 MG damage at 236 and Mk 108 MG at 580, about 2x on his scale.
By power comparisons he places the 151/20 at 16 and the Mk 108 at 58, over 3x. That one
is not on a hit by hit and accounts for shell mix and all, the scale is 1/10th of the
damage scale and the Mk 108 as only firing MG shells (he lists as HE).
Note that he does rate the 151/20 MG as over 2x the damage per hit of the HEIT.


Neal

[This message was edited by WWMaxGunz on Fri August 27 2004 at 11:28 AM.]