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doogsy91
07-10-2012, 11:47 AM
ACIII looks to be panning out as pretty much my idea of the perfect AC game but there's one issue that hasn't been addressed as of yet... Rooftop guards. I think one of the only things that was a step backwards from AC to ACII was the sensitivity of the rooftop guards (which is ironic considering the general paranoia of the guards in AC). They became way too sensitive to proximity whereas you could pretty much run straight past them in AC. Then came Brotherhood which was another step back by arming them with crossbows. At least in the previous two games the guards would put away their bows and draw their swords but no, these guys would keep shooting you with their crossbows even when locked in combat, conveniently backing away from you at the same speed as you could walk towards them, mashing the attack button as Ezio flails his sword around. Admittedly this wasn't too big a deal when it was one on one because you could use you crossbow or pistol to dispense of him, but add a few more guards into the mix to keep you occupied with their swords and hammers and axes while the crossbowman slowly backs away taking potshots at you. That was frustrating but then with Revelations they decided they should give guards frag grenades too and it just became plain infuriating. What an awful, awful game. Approaching some den leaders undetected was pretty much impossible as you were versing what felt like a battalion of guards, all equipped with every type of ranged weapon under the sun. Bullets, bolts, rocks and frags all flying in you direction as you're chasing the den leader who's charging back to his little room. You're just about to assassinate him or shoot him or whatever then you get shot or hit by a frag and Ezio just collapses and falls four stories as the den leader escapes and it all starts again as you try to escape. At this point I generally have to turn off my Xbox or the controller will inevitably become embedded in my TV screen. It's beyond infuriating and it's not just the gameplay, it's the fact that they managed to completely ruin such a great game from ACII. But anyway, now that my little rant is over and hopefully my point made, I'd just like to request that there be no rooftop guards in ACIII as they do nothing but spoil one's enjoyment of the game and they do not seem to suit the new American setting with relatively lower building with steep pitched rooves. And I hope they've also sorted out the issues of freerunning guards with ranged weapons. So far it looks promising.

D.I.D.
07-10-2012, 11:56 AM
You are literally the only person I have ever seen making this complaint. Usually people question why the guards don't see you over a longer distance, and ask for them to be more sensitive. I've seen threads where people ask for the guards to track you more intelligently, or for guards that are tougher to fight or don't give up the chase so easily.

Den captains are primed to run, and their guards to defend them. Given that you are ridiculously powerful in the games and have all manner of ways to insta-kill people, this is an important challenge. It's possible to run in and get the captain, but it's best to apply some problem-solving; you have to pick people off and remain undetected for as long as possible, so that you're close enough to the captain by the time you're spotted. At worst, you can hide near to where the captain spawns and wait for the next guard shift, but that's missing the point of the game.

WolfTemplar94
07-10-2012, 12:00 PM
You should look into using paragraphs in you writing more. It looks much better, and it makes it easier for others to skim over the writing.

The developers have already said that there will be no rooftop guards. I'm definitely glad, because they can make rooftop travel really frustrating. Their reason is that the time period didn't have gaurds on rooftops, so it'd be silly to have them in the game.

On the ranged guard topic, you won't be very happy, because guards will have more range than ever.

doogsy91
07-10-2012, 12:26 PM
You should look into using paragraphs in you writing more. It looks much better, and it makes it easier for others to skim over the writing.

The developers have already said that there will be no rooftop guards. I'm definitely glad, because they can make rooftop travel really frustrating. Their reason is that the time period didn't have gaurds on rooftops, so it'd be silly to have them in the game.

On the ranged guard topic, you won't be very happy, because guards will have more range than ever.
I didn't realise that I'd written so much lol. And thanks, I'm so relieved to hear about the omission of the rooftop guards. They really restricted that feeling of freedom you got in AC when you got up to the rooftops and were able to pretty much go wherever you wanted. I'm surprised I'd not heard that piece of info as I try to keep up with the main interviews etc so as not to make a fool of myself on the odd occasion I post on these boards. And yes I know about the guards new rifles but with the human shield mechanic, the time it takes for them to reload their rifle (making them essentially single shot) and the fact that they will use the bayonets once they've fired their shots all make it sound far more promising.

And to Doubleclick, I appreciate your opinion but really, what is so wrong with being on the rooftops? In AC, the guards only attack you if you approached them whilst they're yelling orders for you to get down. Now you walk within 25 metres of one and he'll engage you and if you do the considerate thing and try to flee instead of killing him unnecessarily, before you know it you've got an entire army of freerunning guards all out for your blood just because you were on the roof. It just seems illogical to me as the climbing/parkour abilities is one of the main things that attract people to the game.

D.I.D.
07-10-2012, 12:45 PM
And to Doubleclick, I appreciate your opinion but really, what is so wrong with being on the rooftops? In AC, the guards only attack you if you approached them whilst they're yelling orders for you to get down. Now you walk within 25 metres of one and he'll engage you and if you do the considerate thing and try to flee instead of killing him unnecessarily, before you know it you've got an entire army of freerunning guards all out for your blood just because you were on the roof. It just seems illogical to me as the climbing/parkour abilities is one of the main things that attract people to the game.

I think it's logical enough. In AC1 the assassins were a new order. AC2 onwards put thieves on roofs, either gathered in groups or as escaping pickpockets, and I think it's right that the guards should be additionally sensitive because Ezio and the assassin order in general became more famous. Therefore in the games anybody on a rooftop is at least criminally suspicious and at worst incredibly dangerous. The dens are zones of particular concern for the templars, so they're on high alert.

I think they were having a hard time creating balance in ACR. So many aspects of the weaponry were made as easy as possible in terms of aiming, damage and drawing attention, and I would guess they realised there would be no challenge left unless some enemy types had immense speed and some offensive advantages. I'm defensive of that because the den assassinations were among the few moments in ACR where you could be rewarded for tactical thinking, acting like an assassin rather than a supersoldier.

In terms of logic, it's very odd that we can pretty much kill any amount of guards we want to without radically affecting the world. There's no logic to the noise of your gun, or a guard's screams, and the lack of reaction from others nearby. The kind of full scale swarming that could be triggered in ACR was something I was expecting to happen when I first played the earlier games. I think it might have been a feature included through a bit of nostalgia for AC1, in fact; it often reminded me of the big post-assassination chase you'd get after each of Altair's nine kills.

TheHumanTowel
07-10-2012, 12:50 PM
You want to make this game series even easier? I liked the rooftop guards because they forced you to actually think of a strategy if you're trying to play stealthy. Plus every Assassination would be over in a second, just climb the completely unguarded rooftops and air assassinate. Repeat 9 times. I also liked the guards seemed to actually gain the use of their ears in AC2. You don't think if someone sprinted past you right behind you you wouldn't hear it?

SixKeys
07-10-2012, 12:52 PM
I feel exactly the opposite, re: archers in AC1 vs. AC2 (and onwards). The archers in AC1, especially in the Kingdom area, were a real challenge, especially later on as their numbers increased. It's really easy to sneak past regular guards even when they're supposedly looking for you, but archers, man, you'd better run 'cause they will spot you from a mile away. In AC2 even when you're standing right in front of them, it takes ages for their detection meter to fill up. You can even pull out your sword and they won't see you as an immediate threat. In AC1, the archers weren't able to get off from their spot to go and investigate when they saw a dead body on the next rooftop, but they did react by pulling out their bow so they'd be ready to shoot as soon as they spotted you. In AC2 they can move around to investigate, but even when they spot you standing five feet from the dead body, it still takes time for their detection meter to fill up, so even though you're the only person around, standing just a few meters away from a dead body, holding your bloody sword in your hand, they're still going: "Hmm....Could this be the assassin?" The archers in AC1 were by far the smartest enemies.

doogsy91
07-10-2012, 01:06 PM
In terms of logic, it's very odd that we can pretty much kill any amount of guards we want to without radically affecting the world. There's no logic to the noise of your gun, or a guard's screams, and the lack of reaction from others nearby. The kind of full scale swarming that could be triggered in ACR was something I was expecting to happen when I first played the earlier games. I think it might have been a feature included through a bit of nostalgia for AC1, in fact; it often reminded me of the big post-assassination chase you'd get after each of Altair's nine kills.

I agree with this except I'm not really talking about ACR specifically. And I miss the intensity of the post-assassination journey back to your hideout in AC with the bell ringing and the guards super sensitive and all.


You want to make this game series even easier? I liked the rooftop guards because they forced you to actually think of a strategy if you're trying to play stealthy. Plus every Assassination would be over in a second, just climb the completely unguarded rooftops and air assassinate. Repeat 9 times. I also liked the guards seemed to actually gain the use of their ears in AC2. You don't think if someone sprinted past you right behind you you wouldn't hear it?

My beef is not with the difficulty of the game. I feel like it was pretty much balanced perfectly in ACII despite flaws to the combat system. But instead of being innovative with Brotherhood, they began to saturate the game with unnecessary features (there's no real need to have a pistol, a crossbow and throwing knives etc) and made both Ezio and the some of guards unnecessarily powerful without it balancing out properly. Then Revelations took it another step too far by giving both sides bombs and just ruining it all. And I was not talking about the AC guards' inability to notice you but their higher tolerance of you being on the rooftops. But anyway, I'm pretty much saying that it should be the way it seems it's going to be in ACIII so yeah...

doogsy91
07-10-2012, 01:13 PM
I feel exactly the opposite, re: archers in AC1 vs. AC2 (and onwards). The archers in AC1, especially in the Kingdom area, were a real challenge, especially later on as their numbers increased. It's really easy to sneak past regular guards even when they're supposedly looking for you, but archers, man, you'd better run 'cause they will spot you from a mile away. In AC2 even when you're standing right in front of them, it takes ages for their detection meter to fill up. You can even pull out your sword and they won't see you as an immediate threat. In AC1, the archers weren't able to get off from their spot to go and investigate when they saw a dead body on the next rooftop, but they did react by pulling out their bow so they'd be ready to shoot as soon as they spotted you. In AC2 they can move around to investigate, but even when they spot you standing five feet from the dead body, it still takes time for their detection meter to fill up, so even though you're the only person around, standing just a few meters away from a dead body, holding your bloody sword in your hand, they're still going: "Hmm....Could this be the assassin?" The archers in AC1 were by far the smartest enemies.

It's been a while since I played AC but the sensitivity of the guards depended on how far through the game you were. I just remember replaying it straight after having played ACII and noticing the rooftop guards would let you get closer before they'd engage you which I just felt made exploring the rooftops feel less restrictive and more enjoyable.

BBALive
07-10-2012, 01:43 PM
I doubt AC3 will even have rooftop guards.

EzioAssassin51
07-10-2012, 03:09 PM
I guess ACR was good like that though since it became the most challenging AC since AC1, especially, as others mentioned, with the whole Den Defense thing actually being challenging to kill the guard without being detected by the gunners or rooftop guards!

SixKeys
07-10-2012, 03:24 PM
I guess ACR was good like that though since it became the most challenging AC since AC1, especially, as others mentioned, with the whole Den Defense thing actually being challenging to kill the guard without being detected by the gunners or rooftop guards!

The gunners were one of the best features in ACR. Finally guards with instant detection and who could cause a lot of damage with just one or two hits. It was frustrating to navigate your way around them sometimes but also highly satisfying when you got to blow them up or sneak past them.

rileypoole1234
07-10-2012, 03:58 PM
Yeah I don't think there'll even be rooftop guards in AC3. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think there was ever redcoats stationed on roofs.

Sabastian_AC
07-10-2012, 04:48 PM
The developers have already said that there will be no rooftop guards. I'm definitely glad, because they can make rooftop travel really frustrating. Their reason is that the time period didn't have gaurds on rooftops, so it'd be silly to have them in the game.

On the ranged guard topic, you won't be very happy, because guards will have more range than ever.

Hmm...I've seen almost all of the developer interviews, but I don't recall hearing that there would be no rooftop guards. Do you have link to that?

JCearlyyears
07-10-2012, 04:54 PM
I don't have the link, but they said that it was historically inaccurate... I think.

notafanboy
07-10-2012, 04:55 PM
Yeah I don't think there'll even be rooftop guards in AC3. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think there was ever redcoats stationed on roofs.

there probably will be in specific missions or something like that

Alpha_SOLDIER_X
07-10-2012, 05:32 PM
The Roofs in AC3 aren't designed for Guards. Flat roof's weren't common in America, and the A-frame roof won't really allow for a rooftop guard They would just fall off..... It also wasn't in the British or american style to do anything on rooftops, they were both Military forces and not hired guards.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-10-2012, 09:57 PM
I guess ACR was good like that though since it became the most challenging AC since AC1, especially, as others mentioned, with the whole Den Defense thing actually being challenging to kill the guard without being detected by the gunners or rooftop guards!

Not really, just use the Crossbow. And those guys behind cover never really bothered me.
Not sure we will even have any in AC III.....

EzioAssassin51
07-11-2012, 01:40 AM
Not really, just use the Crossbow. And those guys behind cover never really bothered me.
Not sure we will even have any in AC III.....

Well you don't really have the crossbow right at the start do you? And they were annoying/difficult because they instantly detected you and shot you for big damage.

Yes, as everyone in this bloody thread HAS ALREADY SAID!!!!

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-11-2012, 01:42 AM
I never actually really ran into one, the ones behind cover with guns? the campers?
I never really ran into trouble with them, easily avoided them.

AssassinGame1
07-11-2012, 04:51 AM
I don't see a reason there should be rooftop guards in the Revolutionary war. It wouldn't seem right.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-11-2012, 04:53 AM
Mostly because the buildings were not really ''flat'' and alot more were A shapes.

JumpInTheFire13
07-11-2012, 06:42 AM
I think it's logical enough. In AC1 the assassins were a new order. AC2 onwards put thieves on roofs, either gathered in groups or as escaping pickpockets, and I think it's right that the guards should be additionally sensitive because Ezio and the assassin order in general became more famous. Therefore in the games anybody on a rooftop is at least criminally suspicious and at worst incredibly dangerous. The dens are zones of particular concern for the templars, so they're on high alert.

I think they were having a hard time creating balance in ACR. So many aspects of the weaponry were made as easy as possible in terms of aiming, damage and drawing attention, and I would guess they realised there would be no challenge left unless some enemy types had immense speed and some offensive advantages. I'm defensive of that because the den assassinations were among the few moments in ACR where you could be rewarded for tactical thinking, acting like an assassin rather than a supersoldier.

In terms of logic, it's very odd that we can pretty much kill any amount of guards we want to without radically affecting the world. There's no logic to the noise of your gun, or a guard's screams, and the lack of reaction from others nearby. The kind of full scale swarming that could be triggered in ACR was something I was expecting to happen when I first played the earlier games. I think it might have been a feature included through a bit of nostalgia for AC1, in fact; it often reminded me of the big post-assassination chase you'd get after each of Altair's nine kills.
1. The Assassins existed loooong before Altair.
2. The Assassins became less "famous" by Ezio's time. Nobody knew about them except for the Assassins themselves and the Templars. In Altair's time they had a freaking castle! That seems like a pretty good way to garner attention.

Puppet627
07-11-2012, 07:36 AM
Get down or I'll throw you down!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-11-2012, 07:39 AM
I never understood how those guards behind cover were hard. I barely ran into ANY trouble, nor with the dens, crossbow is extremely overpowered, so it was no problem.
And after the Mongols attack, the Assassin order became much less well known, hell, in AC1, they had a FORTRESS.
So it does not make sense that they would be more famous or infamous by the 15th century.

Sarari
07-11-2012, 12:22 PM
I think you should write in paragraphs. My eyes started to hurt half way down the page. But I totally agree with you. They piss me off so much lol and you've made your point.

Plus, In AC3, the buildings are more like houses. Houses with slopes on both sides. I don't see why they would add guards on top of a house with slopes on both sides. Let's not forget that a regular citizen of the city is not gonna let some guards on their rooftop. Too weird.

D.I.D.
07-11-2012, 12:33 PM
1. The Assassins existed loooong before Altair.
2. The Assassins became less "famous" by Ezio's time. Nobody knew about them except for the Assassins themselves and the Templars. In Altair's time they had a freaking castle! That seems like a pretty good way to garner attention.

Masyaf is the new centre of the new order, where they get their name. There's the thing about two sides going back further in the fiction, but I don't think you're supposed to read it that each side actually called themselves Assassins and Templars through history and prehistory. That would be ridiculous even by game standards.

Ezio's era are a pretty badly kept secret, and whether or not "the" Assassins are well known, everybody in the fictional history and real history of the time were well aware of organised assassins, and the game reflects that with the terror in crowds if anybody cries "assassin". In the game, you've got guards making jokes about hay bales, ordinary citizens pledging their support for you, Istanbul's assassins put their sign everywhere like it's an advert or something, and Ezio himself is legendary wherever he goes.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-11-2012, 12:49 PM
No, Mario states in the induction that they are not as literal as their Ancestors. And Assassin's basically started....as long as you can trace time.

notafanboy
07-11-2012, 12:59 PM
anyway... i glad the rooftop guards are gone, because sometimes you just want to chill on a rooftop but the guards keep calling you an infidel and shooting you

LightRey
07-11-2012, 01:02 PM
No, Mario states in the induction that they are not as literal as their Ancestors. And Assassin's basically started....as long as you can trace time.
The literal bit is mostly referring to the part about cutting off your finger, though I suspect there is a more general higher meaning to it as well.

@DoubleclickTF
Though you're right that the Assassins in Istanbul seem to "market" their symbol. Keep in mind that during those times communication was slow between cities (sometimes virtually nonexistent), so the symbol would really only have meaning to Assassins and Templars and those dealing with them. To most of the common people it will have seemed little more than the symbol of a local organization or gang. As for Ezio's fame, it's once again mostly among Assassins and Templars, though in places like Firenze he did become known as "the assassin", but that's only locally of course.

MT4K
07-11-2012, 01:08 PM
anyway... i glad the rooftop guards are gone, because sometimes you just want to chill on a rooftop but the guards keep calling you an infidel and shooting you

Yeah no kidding. Go on a roof just to get a better view of the stars at night and some arse starts calliing you names and shooting at you :(. Guess the guards weren't fans of astronomy!

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-11-2012, 01:19 PM
Infidel....
Dont remind me of that. Heard it so much it is engraved in my brain D:<