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D.I.D.
07-04-2012, 11:05 AM
What?

What happened to "history is our playground"? What happened to that bravery: that insistence that you weren't going to compromise the intelligence of the concept? Are you promoting a kind of ignorance now?

If I hadn't learned, happily, the history of countries I might never see, I might not be playing your games. I've noticed a tendency to throw things under the bus lately -- most recently the entire notion of creed, order and honour along with the sense of really caring about social context in AC:Revelations -- so is this an indication that history is the next thing to go? "History is our sandpit"?

Even if it's just staggeringly bad marketing, this is a slap in the face for all the people who supported and valued your games precisely because they had learned or were willing to learn about history. It's worst of all for that proportion who are also citizens of the United States.

So, Ubisoft: are you actually going to play into this stereotype, or are you just going to sell games with it?

SoullessKassidy
07-04-2012, 11:09 AM
wow that line is being taken out of context and being made a big deal for no reason. (facepalm)

misterB2001
07-04-2012, 11:11 AM
Someone doesn't understand the context of what was said.

*double facepalm*

D.I.D.
07-04-2012, 11:14 AM
wow that line is being taken out of context and being made a big deal for no reason. (facepalm)

I'm not taking it out of context. And no reason? Really?

The line is just peculiar. The USA had very little history at that time. It's not a contemporary viewpoint for that child to have, but an expression about the marketing department's beliefs about the present day. That's not meant to be an 18th century boy sitting in that chair; that's a representation of a 21st century person of the USA, and we should all be a bit nervous about that depiction.

D.I.D.
07-04-2012, 11:18 AM
Someone doesn't understand the context of what was said.

*double facepalm*

Ever thought it might be you?

People who live in countries with a lot of history, which today includes the USA, have a legitimate question about how much history should be learned about other places.

People in relatively new 18th century colonies, yet to fight the war that would separate them fully from their parent culture, didn't have that yet and nor did they have an alternative history with which to replace it.

Captain Tomatoz
07-04-2012, 11:20 AM
I agree with what you said, even in context. Because the colonials were mainly from Britain anyway. So that kids history is British history and its very ignorant in my opinion.

misterB2001
07-04-2012, 11:21 AM
Nor should they be forced to learn the history of an oppressive country, which is what the child is saying.

They should have the freedom to choose!

Freedom of choice = the assassins goal.

Captain Tomatoz
07-04-2012, 11:25 AM
Nor should they be forced to learn the history of an oppressive country, which is what the child is saying.

They should have the freedom to choose!

Freedom of choice = the assassins goal.

Its funny because they weren't learning about an different country. They were learning about their own country because it was all Britain.
Children are still not given the freedom of what they want to learn in history at school.

WolfTemplar94
07-04-2012, 11:35 AM
It's all about choice. People didn't want to learn about some motherland that's only a name to them, so they shouldn't have to learn about it, or get beaten for not wanting to learn.

SoullessKassidy
07-04-2012, 11:47 AM
yup being out of context and blown up for no reason:


Well it's supposed to show the anger building within the oppressed people.. The cause.. The need to rise up...

Which tbh I think it does rather well..


You have to remember these trailers are ment to capture a snap shot of the game only.. Not the over all feeling - this is about the need to RISE... http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20120411.419/images/smilies/wink.png

Hence all of the shots showing people defending their rights, homes and lives.

De Filosoof
07-04-2012, 11:59 AM
What?

What happened to "history is our playground"? What happened to that bravery: that insistence that you weren't going to compromise the intelligence of the concept? Are you promoting a kind of ignorance now?

If I hadn't learned, happily, the history of countries I might never see, I might not be playing your games. I've noticed a tendency to throw things under the bus lately -- most recently the entire notion of creed, order and honour along with the sense of really caring about social context in AC:Revelations -- so is this an indication that history is the next thing to go? "History is our sandpit"?

Even if it's just staggeringly bad marketing, this is a slap in the face for all the people who supported and valued your games precisely because they had learned or were willing to learn about history. It's worst of all for that proportion who are also citizens of the United States.

So, Ubisoft: are you actually going to play into this stereotype, or are you just going to sell games with it?

Don't be afraid, you have to put it in the context of that time, when the people were rising up against the British empire.
The boy isn't talking about this age...

D.I.D.
07-04-2012, 12:01 PM
It's all about choice. People didn't want to learn about some motherland that's only a name to them, so they shouldn't have to learn about it, or get beaten for not wanting to learn.

But the context of the ad (minus a flash of guilt here and shame there) is that this is a call-to-arms in a fight against tyranny. It's written in the classic style of rhetorical political rabble-rousing, with no less power behind it than the birth of a nation. The boy didn't not need to be there, or need to be saying that. A child would no doubt have similar fears to his own parents at that time and, come to that, could his fears not have been about his parents, rather than schoolwork? The audience might suspect this was intended to be a message designed to appeal to blinkered 12-year-olds.

At best, Little Insurgent muddies the message since his position is queasily pitched between "political gesture" and "lazy entitlement". He would get beaten just as surely for a refusal to study mathematics as he would British History. At worst, it's conveying the message I and others have taken from it.

I work in two areas which are forms of marketing, and in one of those fields I design the graphical and textual representation of my clients. We have to think very carefully about the messages we construct and we pore over every small detail. We don't allow things to be any more open to interpretation than is absolutely necessary, and if we do use anything as incendiary as this then we do so knowing that it might not be possible to control it. It's a gamble, whether that message plays so well with one large audience that the misgivings of the smaller audience don't matter.

D.I.D.
07-04-2012, 12:03 PM
yup being out of context and blown up for no reason:

Yes, the Ubisoft Forum Manager supports the Ubisoft brand, and so he should.

Locopells
07-04-2012, 12:27 PM
It fits with the trailer, but then the whole thing is only a ACIII trailer by name and era set.

POP1Fan
07-04-2012, 12:34 PM
In and out of context it is stupid.They should have put it in a diffrent way and maybe it would deliver the message better, but the way it is it sounds very wierd xD

brick177
07-04-2012, 12:35 PM
You have to understand that the "history" that was taught wasn't "history" like we learn today. It was the history of the monarchy. History of the nobility. Not the history of the people or the land.

D.I.D.
07-04-2012, 12:45 PM
You have to understand that the "history" that was taught wasn't "history" like we learn today. It was the history of the monarchy. History of the nobility. Not the history of the people or the land.

But he's, what, 11 or 12 years old? At that age, all I learned about my country and the other countries was learned via knowledge of their monarchies.

It's this "refuse to learn" thing that really stabs me in the ears. "I will fight tyranny with ignorance. That'll learn 'em." It's so cheap, and really it's a refusal to fight if a person lacks any interest in knowing his or her enemy. After all, by the repetitive style of the rhetoric, you are meant to be feeling fired up and thinking "too right, son!" after each line.

"I reject the history of a country I will never see" might just about work, but are much smarter thematic angles for conveying the fears of a child on the brink of war than this.

brick177
07-04-2012, 12:49 PM
Most kids back then had no access to education anyway, so he's probably an entitled brat.

misterB2001
07-04-2012, 12:49 PM
there may have been smarter ways to convey the point, but the way they have done it will work for the vast majority.

Its interesting how you've changed tact after realising that you understood it wrong in the first place though

D.I.D.
07-04-2012, 12:57 PM
there may have been smarter ways to convey the point, but the way they have done it will work for the vast majority.

Its interesting how you've changed tact after realising that you understood it wrong in the first place though

I did not understand it wrongly. I'm responding to the logic of other people's understanding of what the statement meant, and engaging them on that basis. That's essential to a discussion.

My first post concedes that it might be nothing more than incredibly ham-fisted marketing, so I was making two separate points from the start.

BATISTABUS
07-04-2012, 01:40 PM
It's a form of protest, not ignorance.

Just as you may choose to protest this game if it bothers you that much.

SixKeys
07-04-2012, 01:47 PM
No matter the context, that line rubbed me the wrong way in this trailer which is meant for modern audiences. Considering the poor state of many Americans' current education about the history of any other country besides their own, it's a pretty bad idea to advertise this sort of thinking as a positive thing. I understand what they were going for in the context of the game, but considering the rest of the trailer is about fairly admirable freedoms (defending your country, protecting your family, religious freedom etc.), "the freedom to remain ignorant and uneducated" isn't exactly a noble cause.

dxsxhxcx
07-04-2012, 02:04 PM
No matter the context, that line rubbed me the wrong way in this trailer which is meant for modern audiences. Considering the poor state of many Americans' current education about the history of any other country besides their own, it's a pretty bad idea to advertise this sort of thinking as a positive thing. I understand what they were going for in the context of the game, but considering the rest of the trailer is about fairly admirable freedoms (defending your country, protecting your family, religious freedom etc.), "the freedom to remain ignorant and uneducated" isn't exactly a noble cause.

from what I was able to understand of this discussion, it seems that kids during those days were forced to learn the history of other country that oppressed them and accept it as their own, what IMO is wrong, and it doesn't matter if it's for a noble cause or not, freedom is freedom, you can't force someone to learn just because you think what you're teaching is right, it's up to the people to decide if they want to remain ignorant or not, the only thing you can do is give access to the information, the rest it's up to them...

RatonhnhakeFan
07-04-2012, 02:05 PM
Ubi delivered with that line, the jokes are writing themselves lol xD

thekarlone
07-04-2012, 02:06 PM
What Ubisoft defends is the LIBERTY of choosing if you want to learn foreign history or not.

SaintPerkele
07-04-2012, 02:15 PM
What Ubisoft defends is the LIBERTY of choosing if you want to learn foreign history or not.
The liberty of deciding to be dumb. Hooray!
http://i.qkme.me/2ltr.jpg

berserker134
07-04-2012, 02:21 PM
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lshvbspaGO1qmdncko1_500.jpg u didn't understand the message

TheHumanTowel
07-04-2012, 02:27 PM
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lshvbspaGO1qmdncko1_500.jpg u didn't understand the message
then enlighten us. What is the message we so clearly missed?

Locopells
07-04-2012, 02:29 PM
No matter the context, that line rubbed me the wrong way in this trailer which is meant for modern audiences. Considering the poor state of many Americans' current education about the history of any other country besides their own, it's a pretty bad idea to advertise this sort of thinking as a positive thing. I understand what they were going for in the context of the game, but considering the rest of the trailer is about fairly admirable freedoms (defending your country, protecting your family, religious freedom etc.), "the freedom to remain ignorant and uneducated" isn't exactly a noble cause.

Well you gotta wonder about a country that call an internal sporting tournament 'The World Series'

D.I.D.
07-04-2012, 02:35 PM
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lshvbspaGO1qmdncko1_500.jpg u didn't understand the message

Spectacular. "U" didn't understand the thread.

I know what the message is meant to be: a rebellious culture was forming into a new nation, and this is the July 4th Independence Day trailer, so the script is meant to reflect the overthrowing of tyranny.

However, there is an emergent subtext which is either a huge mistake or (and sadly, knowing marketing as I do, this is more likely) a deliberate insertion of a message to sell the game to a broader base through a pretty crass method. The marketing team dropped the ball here in a way which displays either a foul-up or a case of something more unpleasant, and I don't know which one it is. However, I would like to know how much communication there was between the creative Ubisoft and the marketing Ubisoft on some of the things we've seen in the promotion of the most recent games. People said not to worry last time, and some of those fears turned out to be accurate.

matheus_737
07-04-2012, 02:39 PM
The boy in the trailer showed his feelings, the trailer was showing the situations who can ignite a revolution like the rebeld of the boy. Don't stay angry!

thekarlone
07-04-2012, 02:46 PM
I think many of you have misunderstood the trailer speech. The only subtext message is: I don't want anything imposed.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 03:15 PM
Lol..you people seriously freaking out on that?

benthepigeon
07-04-2012, 03:35 PM
God this is so ridiculous. The theme of the video is the American (or Colonist) people rising up against oppression (trailer is called RISE, get it?!). Stop reading into it so much, considering this video's been released on Independence day, it's no big surprise its coming from the American side of things.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 03:36 PM
The problem is the entire marketing is from the American side.

SixKeys
07-04-2012, 03:43 PM
Lol..you people seriously freaking out on that?

Nobody is freaking out. We're simply criticizing a dumb commercial.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 03:49 PM
It is dumb, but not over that.

Turul.
07-04-2012, 04:21 PM
dear god.

sick of this crap

Norcent31
07-04-2012, 04:26 PM
Boy grows up...
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_eosGkndaIFM/R-zmzAbW_dI/AAAAAAAACZo/cfydcnhxKlY/s400/HomerEnglish-1.jpg

freddie_1897
07-04-2012, 04:26 PM
its funny because no one is really free.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 04:27 PM
Yep. What about the Natives? did everybody suddenly forget they exist?

freddie_1897
07-04-2012, 04:28 PM
Yep. What about the Natives? did everybody suddenly forget they exist?
natives?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 04:32 PM
Natives = Native Americans.

freddie_1897
07-04-2012, 04:32 PM
Natives = Native Americans.
i know, i was making a joke based on what you'd just said, that the natives had been forgotten

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 04:34 PM
Oh..in that case :P
The Mohawk historically fought for the British, and defying history completely in AC is a bad thing. The idea of him being neutral would somewhat be historically fit.

Steww-
07-04-2012, 04:47 PM
Any Assassin fancy helping me out of Further Differentiation? I'd like to refuse to learn a skill that I'll never use. In fact, we should probably start a revolution or something.

mojsarn
07-04-2012, 04:50 PM
As someone said earlier you don't really have the freedom these days to take a **** in the history books neither just because you don't want to learn about the history of another country. Of course, it's a lot of talk just over a little boy but i'm getting more and more tired of this campaign after this trailer. The "Americans" are just as much of a invading people as the British in Connors perspective, all we want is neutrality from the assassins as in the first Assassins Creed. It already happened in Assassins creed II when Ezio choose side...

freddie_1897
07-04-2012, 04:53 PM
taking this whole quote into account, i am not going to buy AC3, i refuse to learn the history of a country i'll never see

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 04:54 PM
LOL.
Backfired on the marketing team.

Layytez
07-04-2012, 04:59 PM
taking this whole quote into account, i am not going to buy AC3, i refuse to learn the history of a country i'll never see

I wanna see if Ubisoft comes forward and makes a statement on this bs because their word isn't enough to satisfy people considering what they have shown.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 05:00 PM
I dont blame the devs, again, Alex is putting tons of work too make people understand.

Layytez
07-04-2012, 05:03 PM
I dont blame the devs, again, Alex is putting tons of work too make people understand.

You mean saying alot of words to make people understand. At this point words are clearly not enough.

rileypoole1234
07-04-2012, 05:05 PM
I'm waiting for the trailer that's filled with the unbridled slaughter of Americans. Then people will realise...

LoyalACFan
07-04-2012, 05:18 PM
You mean saying alot of words to make people understand. At this point words are clearly not enough.

What else can he do? The things they showcase in trailers and game expos are not decided by Hutchinson and the creative team. Instead, they are planned out ahead of time by the marketing crew, who seem hellbent on making people think Connor will be riding alongside Washington, draped in the American flag as he shoots redcoats in the face for fun.

Layytez
07-04-2012, 05:22 PM
What else can he do? The things they showcase in trailers and game expos are not decided by Hutchinson and the creative team. Instead, they are planned out ahead of time by the marketing crew, who seem hellbent on making people think Connor will be riding alongside Washington, draped in the American flag as he shoots redcoats in the face for fun.

So the people who are behind the actual games development can't demand how they want their game to come across as ?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 05:24 PM
Yep. They cant, lack of communication between both teams.

Layytez
07-04-2012, 05:26 PM
If this is how it is before the games even out I can't wait to see post launch....

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 05:30 PM
I have hope it wont be as pro-american as this.

DemigodWL
07-04-2012, 05:53 PM
Despite what Ive been reading from the devs that the game isnt just anti British they could show just one screen of Connor assassinating one blue coat. How can doing that be a spoiler? Unless of course he goes through the game and only kills redcoats or British loyalists. I'm beginning to believe the line "its not British v American but templar v assassin" is in fact interchangeable.

Hope its wrong but it sure doesn't look like it.

Turul.
07-04-2012, 06:00 PM
In AC2 Ezio's main enemy were the Templars, the Templars were in control of the Borgia Army. But Ezio was still able to kill guards of the Medici Army, even though they were allies.

in AC3 Connor's main enemy were the Templars, we can assume the Templars are in control of the British army, (an possibly King George is a Templar himself). But Connor will be able to kill guards of the Colonial army/militia. Even though they are for the most part alllies. For the first time we will see the Templars cross lines in a signifigant way, (much like Uberto Alberti), and the game will include Templars on the colonial side, (but we don't know who).


I think I'm going to make a infographic so people can finally understand what the **** is actually going on.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 06:02 PM
No. they are claiming neutrality, he is not a Patriot, which means they are not his allies, just means too get too what he wants.

Locopells
07-04-2012, 06:08 PM
Why are you British people soo offended over us not learning your history. Guess what I never learned British history in school. and don't take this the wrong way but since my lineage is as it turns out VERY British I have tried to learn some of it for myself but I'm sorry I just can't do it without getting bored. It's possibly the most boring history I've ever seen. Nothing against Brits or England I like Brits and England ok I am fairly indifferent I suppose but the history in England is just boring.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_KIzbktgJk

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 06:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_kizbktgjk

LOL. I can agree with that.

kriegerdesgottes
07-04-2012, 06:14 PM
I am serious but I erased that post because I felt it wasn't necessary to say on here but yea that's just how I feel. Nothing against British people though.

CSKarasu
07-04-2012, 06:17 PM
Not sure where they were going with that particular line. If a person doesn't want to learn about the history of a country because they are prejudiced or simply because they are never going to see it then they are ignorant.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 06:19 PM
If that's the case, nobody out of Italy would have bough ACII and AC:B.

freddie_1897
07-04-2012, 06:22 PM
I think that with British history you can't say it's all boring, because there's lots of it, I'm sure there's something you'll find interesting, my favourite is probably the British empire

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 06:28 PM
In 5th and 6th grade I had a British english teacher...
I used too constantly annoy her by continuously taking about how Americans won the war. Lol.

kriegerdesgottes
07-04-2012, 06:33 PM
I think that with British history you can't say it's all boring, because there's lots of it, I'm sure there's something you'll find interesting, my favourite is probably the British empire

In my original post, which I erased, I mentioned finding Henry the VIII and William the Conqueror interesting but William much like many English monarchs like the Georges, and Richard the Lionheart weren't even British. Richard didn't even speak English.

LightRey
07-04-2012, 06:35 PM
...I'm not even getting the point. Maybe it's the heat, maybe it's the fact that I think this has more to do with semantics than anything else, idk.

D.I.D.
07-04-2012, 07:12 PM
God this is so ridiculous. The theme of the video is the American (or Colonist) people rising up against oppression (trailer is called RISE, get it?!). Stop reading into it so much, considering this video's been released on Independence day, it's no big surprise its coming from the American side of things.

Is the alternative to not read anything into this at all?

A lot of people are responding to me like, "Dude, it's just how people felt at the time. Stop looking for stuff that's not there", as if this commercial is a simple historical document. It's not.

The people of the 18th century are all dead and unable to buy AC3, and we're all very sad about that. This advert is aimed only at the US market for AC3 in the 21st century. This is not "How did people feel about the Revolution in the 18th century?" but rather "How do today's US customers see themselves through the lens of these 18th century events? How will we make this game appeal to them through this?". So no, these are the marketing copywriters' ideas of what the 21st century customer of America values: tradition but innovation, loyalty but not servility, to be citizens but not subjects, and so on. Dumb lazy kids, too. Come and buy our game, brats.

They've done something very weird to encourage custom here. Either they've created some bad marketing here, which is one complaint, or this is a hint of a central change in focus about the AC series to round off some of the more difficult aspects and make it less challenging, which certainly happened with AC:R. There were complaints about the alternative history presented in the puzzles being anti-capitalist and showing right-wing heroes in a bad light, and whoosh the whole thing was gone. The dense presentation of social history, which many gamers felt was teaching them something about Italian history (or at least giving them a great entry point, despite everything that was changed), was not there for Istanbul at all. We learned next to nothing that we did not already know. You'll know more about 16th century Istanbul within 40 pages of "My Name Is Red" than you will from the entirety of AC:R.

Dostoe
07-04-2012, 07:13 PM
Man, people on gaming forums really find the most insignificant and trivial things to complain about. From seeing people's response to this, I really have to agree with esco when he said that it seems people are really not prepared to handle mature content.

People need to quit attributing every statement that a character/actor makes to Ubisoft. Why? It's asinine and only demonstrates a lack of critical thinking.

Context context context .

1) this game is a historical fiction. This means that characters are going to have divergent viewpoints, this means that characters are going to be prejudiced, biased, stupid, etc. Do we attribute these things to the author? That would be like saying Shakespeare thinks condones an Iago or Richard III or that Henry Miller thinks you should only bang prostitues and get the clap or that Huxley thinks you should just do drugs. Quit attributing every statement to ubisoft, it's ridiculous. "Oh, a kid said this, that's what Ubisoft believes!" Or theyre advocating such behavior. All such comments show is an inability to differentiate between fiction and reality.

2) Local context - understanding the above and Shades' comments about the overall trailer, we can begin to understand the kid's motives. His line fits in with the overall theme, but moreover, it demonstrates his form of rebellion. He can't rebel in any other way, so by refusing to appropriate the imposition of an ethnocentric culture, he demonstrates his rebellion, which are his only means of doing so. Now, we might smile at his childlike expression of rebellion and admonish him, as we might say ignorance benefits no one, yet at the same time, any person with a brain should be able to appreciate the child's sentiment behind the remark within the context of the trailer, while not condoning the content of the remark itself. As I said before, to do so is asinine.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 07:17 PM
You want mature theme? address the slaves. Address the Native Americans. Address the Marijuana deal. Address how Benjamin Franklin had a prostitute with him every night.
They are purposely picking what historical parts they like and throwing them in.

Mr_Shade
07-04-2012, 07:19 PM
You want mature theme? address the slaves. Address the Native Americans. Address the Marijuana deal. Address how Benjamin Franklin had a prostitute with him every night.
They are purposely picking what historical parts they like and throwing them in.who knows what the game covers...


They pick certain aspects and themes for trailers - to have the most impact on many levels..

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 07:21 PM
But none of them so far have shown any sort of negative aspects of the Colonies.

kriegerdesgottes
07-04-2012, 07:27 PM
But none of them so far have shown any sort of negative aspects of the Colonies.

Actually they said in an article that they plan on showing that side of Ben Franklin as a bit of a womanizer.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 07:32 PM
''A bit'' is a understatement if history is anything too go by xD
I want a neutral stand point too show that it's one big shade of grey (or purple) not red and blue.

D.I.D.
07-04-2012, 07:32 PM
Man, people on gaming forums really find the most insignificant and trivial things to complain about. From seeing people's response to this, I really have to agree with esco when he said that it seems people are really not prepared to handle mature content.

People need to quit attributing every statement that a character/actor makes to Ubisoft. Why? It's asinine and only demonstrates a lack of critical thinking.

Context context context .

1) this game is a historical fiction. This means that characters are going to have divergent viewpoints, this means that characters are going to be prejudiced, biased, stupid, etc. Do we attribute these things to the author? That would be like saying Shakespeare thinks condones an Iago or Richard III or that Henry Miller thinks you should only bang prostitues and get the clap or that Huxley thinks you should just do drugs. Quit attributing every statement to ubisoft, it's ridiculous. "Oh, a kid said this, that's what Ubisoft believes!" Or theyre advocating such behavior. All such comments show is an inability to differentiate between fiction and reality.

2) Local context - understanding the above and Shades' comments about the overall trailer, we can begin to understand the kid's motives. His line fits in with the overall theme, but moreover, it demonstrates his form of rebellion. He can't rebel in any other way, so by refusing to appropriate the imposition of an ethnocentric culture, he demonstrates his rebellion, which are his only means of doing so. Now, we might smile at his childlike expression of rebellion and admonish him, as we might say ignorance benefits no one, yet at the same time, any person with a brain should be able to appreciate the child's sentiment behind the remark within the context of the trailer, while not condoning the content of the remark itself. As I said before, to do so is asinine.

But I'm talking about context too.

If these were scenes in the game, I would not have any complaint. I am not one of the Britons you might have seen around here, upset at the US patriotism and the killing of redcoats. I'm waiting to see what the game is like, and even if it is heavily against the British Empire then that's almost certainly going to be fine with me. I have no connection to those people other than some heredity, and besides the Empire did many terrible things.

My complaint is that these statements appear in the promotional material; these are the words used to sell the game. I find it amazing that nobody challenged this internally, because this is one of the things I do for a living. I know how something like this is constructed, and how it is carefully analysed and refined. Nothing is as simple as thinking "What would a kid say?", and then you just put that on-screen.

AlphaAltair
07-04-2012, 07:39 PM
I used to be THE biggest Ac fan right from AC1, but ubisoft have lost their way, first ACB then ACR and now ACUSA, This one-sided patriotism for the sake of cash makes me sick. It seems to oppose the very ideals of the Assassins.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 07:40 PM
Mother of....
The. Marketing. Team. Does. Not. Communicate. With. The. Devs.

Dostoe
07-04-2012, 07:43 PM
But you're attributing the remarks made in the trailer, in the context of the game to Ubisoft itself, saying that they condone such sentiments. Look at all of these posts, "how can Ubisoft be adovcating such ignorance?" My point is that they're not. And further, the fact that they think so shows that they are entirely incapable of handling and appreciating any susbstantively mature content. I wonder what people would say if in the game Ubisoft portrays African Americans being treated in certain ways, "oh my God, Ubisoft must think that's okay!" Get real, and learn to differentiate what happens in a world of fiction from the real world.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 07:45 PM
Wait...what? the trailer is very pro-american, but that is not how the game actually is. Our point is they are straying away from the ''real world'' in terms of historical accuracy, because the Americans are being portrayed as angels.

notafanboy
07-04-2012, 07:45 PM
blue text whaaaaaaaah !!!!!

D.I.D.
07-04-2012, 07:53 PM
But you're attributing the remarks made in the trailer, in the context of the game to Ubisoft itself, saying that they condone such sentiments. Look at all of these posts, "how can Ubisoft be adovcating such ignorance?" My point is that they're not. And further, the fact that they think so shows that they are entirely incapable of handling and appreciating any susbstantively mature content. I wonder what people would say if in the game Ubisoft portrays African Americans being treated in certain ways, "oh my God, Ubisoft must think that's okay!" Get real, and learn to differentiate what happens in a world of fiction from the real world.

I'm asking questions and expressing my unease with this, because we do not know the extent of connections within the company. There's the dev team, who almost certainly have nothing to do with the messages in the trailers. There's the marketing team, who may have had a big hand in this or may have been working in a supervisory role to an external company. Then there's the central business of Ubisoft, which naturally wants to see bigger profits from each release.

If you don't believe that the dev team could ever be leaned on by the other two, then you shouldn't make claims to living in the real world. The only signs you'll get, if such things are happening, is through the products themselves and their marketing. AC:R was dramatically dumbed-down, after a campaign which suggested such things might happen. Excuse me for raising this point, but I am not simply "freaking out", as others put it, over a single line in a single ad. I'm just critical of it, and concerned about what it might indicate about changes with the whole brand now that it's gone into motion pictures too.

Assassin_M
07-04-2012, 08:00 PM
This is just getting Weird, however; I did foresee this mess, but there was nothing I, or anyone, could do about it. Obviously the marketing is very skewed, case rested, but that trailer is looked into WAAAAY too much and I do agree that people really are not ready to comprehend mature content (No, not sex, drugs ..etc)

The problem here is that some people think that this is some sort of Conspiracy against every Non-US fan that will buy AC III and/or watches its Media and that this conspiracy, in some way, is trying to deliver a secret message to Americans. I believe if this trailer contained the same footage in exactly the same context, BUT was not set during the American Revolution, then people wouldn't have minded.

This Trailer so simply portrays the Assassin Ideals, albeit in a more "American Revolution" light so to say, and that is whats casing this WHOLE mess, its not the killing of British, not Connor siding with the Americans, but rather how its shown that Americans (British wearing blue) are portrayed as "Free" in that trailer and how they truly rebelled against Britain.

I can swear that if this trailer was set during... say the Egyptian Revolution against the British, then this thread wouldn't have been made and no one will have ever complained..

shanethebouncer
07-04-2012, 08:05 PM
What this child means is that he does not want another nations history to be taught as his own seeing as how he will never see it. Yes Americas history was brief in the late 18th century but it was still their history.

D.I.D.
07-04-2012, 08:16 PM
The problem here is that some people think that this is some sort of Conspiracy against every Non-US fan that will buy AC III and/or watches its Media and that this conspiracy, in some way, is trying to deliver a secret message to Americans. I believe if this trailer contained the same footage in exactly the same context, BUT was not set during the American Revolution, then people wouldn't have minded.

No.

I am not against the patriotism, or the ad as a whole. That's why I started a thread based on this one thing, rather than ranting against the entire piece.

I am not trying to say it's delivering a "secret" message to US customers as such, at least not in a Pavlovian way that they wouldn't notice. I'm saying it's presenting a sequence of things that they believe the customers will recognise and enjoy, and I found that particular one troubling. I would find it troubling in any time/place setting for the game, because it's the antithesis of what the game used to aspire to be.

As I keep saying, and have been saying from the start and throughout the thread, it might be an unconscious blunder. That's still a bad thing.

LightRey
07-04-2012, 08:21 PM
No.

I am not against the patriotism, or the ad as a whole. That's why I started a thread based on this one thing, rather than ranting against the entire piece.

I am not trying to say it's delivering a "secret" message to US customers as such, at least not in a Pavlovian way that they wouldn't notice. I'm saying it's presenting a sequence of things that they believe the customers will recognise and enjoy, and I found that particular one troubling. I would find it troubling in any time/place setting for the game, because it's the antithesis of what the game used to aspire to be.

As I keep saying, and have been saying from the start and throughout the thread, it might be an unconscious blunder. That's still a bad thing.
So you're actually saying you think you know better than the Ubi marketing department?

Dostoe
07-04-2012, 08:21 PM
Because one line spoken by a fictional character, in a fictional universe is indicative of the entire game and a company's true intentions...

freddie_1897
07-04-2012, 09:00 PM
Id do the same if I was the child. Think for a sec, the history of America at that time was so short that the tests would have been so easy if they'd just learnt American history.

And come on, as a child if you were given the option to do a harder or easier test you'd go for easier.

coxiewoo123
07-04-2012, 09:05 PM
Can somebody clarify something: Is it non-American people who are getting enraged at Ubisoft's marketing, American people or both?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 09:05 PM
Both.

Turul.
07-04-2012, 09:10 PM
Can somebody clarify something: Is it non-American people who are getting enraged at Ubisoft's marketing, American people or both?

does it matter?

mojsarn
07-04-2012, 09:26 PM
This is just getting Weird, however; I did foresee this mess, but there was nothing I, or anyone, could do about it. Obviously the marketing is very skewed, case rested, but that trailer is looked into WAAAAY too much and I do agree that people really are not ready to comprehend mature content (No, not sex, drugs ..etc)

The problem here is that some people think that this is some sort of Conspiracy against every Non-US fan that will buy AC III and/or watches its Media and that this conspiracy, in some way, is trying to deliver a secret message to Americans. I believe if this trailer contained the same footage in exactly the same context, BUT was not set during the American Revolution, then people wouldn't have minded.

This Trailer so simply portrays the Assassin Ideals, albeit in a more "American Revolution" light so to say, and that is whats casing this WHOLE mess, its not the killing of British, not Connor siding with the Americans, but rather how its shown that Americans (British wearing blue) are portrayed as "Free" in that trailer and how they truly rebelled against Britain.

I can swear that if this trailer was set during... say the Egyptian Revolution against the British, then this thread wouldn't have been made and no one will have ever complained..

Of course no one would complain, that's because no one is against that British people are being killed in a game witch is set several hundred years ago, at least not in my case. It just that we are tired of how America is being portrayed and how it feels like it's only targeting the american people in this marketing campaign.Even more when they said that Conner would kill on both sides and still only have trailers such as this.

Turul.
07-04-2012, 09:50 PM
this diagram is based of the given information and advertising. i made this because it seems a small minority of the community is really that immature in thinking Ubisoft is anti-british.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg201/scaled.php?server=201&filename=64543701.jpg&res=landing

TheHumanTowel
07-04-2012, 09:55 PM
this diagram is based of the given information and advertising. i made this because it seems a small minority of the community is really that immature in thinking Ubisoft is anti-british.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg201/scaled.php?server=201&filename=64543701.jpg&res=landing
This is based on so many assumptions it's ridiculous.

Turul.
07-04-2012, 10:05 PM
This is based on so many assumptions it's ridiculous.

considering we have a VERY limited amount of information, assumptions had to be made.

we have to assume he is friendly with the colonists. due to gameplay footage, his relationship with george washington, the overall message of the marketing campaign, and the ideals of the colonists and the ideals of the assasins similarities.

we have to assume the templars are influencing GB, considering gameplay footage, the marketing campaign, and the relation between the Ideals of great Britain (at the time) and the ideals of the templars similarities.

we know connor has targets that are on both sides of the war, and we know he can fight against both colonial soldiers and british soldiers.

if you have a valid point to make with supporting evidence then feel free to post.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 10:07 PM
And may I add, almost every render has him near some sort of American flag.

Turul.
07-04-2012, 10:08 PM
And may I add, almost every render has him near some sort of American flag.

@TheHumanTowel

as you can see, all evidence so far has shown some sort of "alliance" with the colonists and the colonial army.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 10:10 PM
I guess we will just have too accept the game will feature bias toward the American side. Oh well, well played Ubi.

Turul.
07-04-2012, 10:12 PM
I guess we will just have too accept the game will feature bias toward the American side. Oh well, well played Ubi.

Considering how it relates to the Assassin's, it should be.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 10:13 PM
It does not. Assassin's believe in freedom and equality for everybody, neither the British or Americans presented all of those things.

Turul.
07-04-2012, 10:16 PM
well the American's were more so than the British.

but everyone is missing the whole point, Connor's conflict is seperate from the war, and they should just wait until they play before crying all over the forums about how to game is "too biased", and how they don't like the marketing because it's "too biased".

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 10:18 PM
Marketing=/=game. People are complaining about the marketing, not necessarily the game. Even tho quite honestly if what we can as of now is true, biasment will go the American side.

Turul.
07-04-2012, 10:42 PM
well it seems connor is a bit more biased then we were lead to believe.

i think people took the whole idea that the game would be "more neutral" and blew it out of proportion.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 10:43 PM
The problem is every presenations, interview, article, they stressed it so much that he is neutral...only too discover he has bias?

Turul.
07-04-2012, 10:46 PM
Please give me evidence to support your claim.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-04-2012, 10:48 PM
As I told you, almost every single article or presentation you can find out they stress ''He is not a Patriot'' ''Connor is neutral''
In a sense I can understand more Templars being British, as that was a world power, not some rebels, but I want a un-biased point of view. That is all.

Turul.
07-05-2012, 01:01 AM
You havent given me any quotes or videos to support what your saying.

you still havent made an argument


also your signature implies that connor had an allegiance, yet had none.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 01:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc_ZMhzWd9c
The Ubisoft press conference, in the AC III part: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HalhGwC_ym4
There are interviews and articles aswell.

Turul.
07-05-2012, 01:11 AM
read this

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Connor_Kenway

and yes it is reliable, considering Ubisoft often uses it as a reference for its own games, and when creating the Encyclopedia.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 01:14 AM
I did read that, but that was back in April, and it was taken from Game Informer, who have screwed up a couple of times *Saying ME3 will get completely new endings, as an example*

LightRey
07-05-2012, 01:14 AM
read this

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Connor_Kenway

and yes it is reliable, considering Ubisoft often uses it as a reference for its own games, and when creating the Encyclopedia.
That doesn't make it reliable. That just makes it clear enough for their own to filter out the errors themselves. I've witnessed a fair share of serious errors on the part of the wiki.

Turul.
07-05-2012, 01:47 AM
That doesn't make it reliable. That just makes it clear enough for their own to filter out the errors themselves. I've witnessed a fair share of serious errors on the part of the wiki.

well i stand corrected, but it should be obvious to everyone that Connor is going to have some sort of positive relationship with George Washington Ben Franklin and other leaders of the Revolution,

menacefox
07-05-2012, 02:05 AM
The problem is the entire marketing is from the American side.
The reason why the marketing is Pro-American. Ummm, look at the big American gaming market?

Ubisoft is trying to set a huge pre-order record here in the USA. It's a business, buddy.

Also, we don't know if Britain is going to get pro-British trailers in the next couple months.

But as long as these Pro-American trailers are getting Ubisoft more pre-orders, they won't stop them.
Maybe when pre-orders in the U.S. start taking a dive.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 02:08 AM
If the sales in US dont take a dive, sales in UK may take a dive, which is unfortunate. While they could get pre-orders from both.

menacefox
07-05-2012, 02:12 AM
If the sales in US dont take a dive, sales in UK may take a dive, which is unfortunate. While they could get pre-orders from both.
Okay, than you also need to look at it this way.

We in the U.S. are still getting an average collector's edition. So, maybe the trailers are part of our collector's edition? Maybe we'll be able to download them from somewhere legally. lol.

And honestly, I'll take a better collector's edition over these trailers any day of the week. It seems that Ubisoft's money spending focus was to give Americans more 'impressive' cinema trailers than to produce a good collector's edition.

Turul.
07-05-2012, 02:19 AM
unlikely, and the NA verison was intended to be the best,

but since there isnt much DLC and no artbook ppl have been dissapointed

menacefox
07-05-2012, 02:29 AM
unlikely, and the NA verison was intended to be the best,

but since there isnt much DLC and no artbook ppl have been dissapointed
Not sure what you are referring to?

shanethebouncer
07-05-2012, 02:31 AM
I love how no one else pulled any other quote out of that video because there's nothing wrong with them but they pull this quote out and take it out context all because their hell bent on proving that Ubisoft doesn't care about anybody who isn't American.

monoman32
07-05-2012, 03:36 AM
This is going to be the 5th AC game. We all know it's Assassins vs Templars, and Ubisoft doesn't have to promote this. AC3 will have a new everything: character, location, time, weapons, engine, etc. So Ubisoft is promoting (marketing) the Revolutionary War and the new stuff they added since that's new to us. Showing Connor killing colonists could reveal spoilers, and I for one hates spoilers and wants to be totally surprised when I play the game. Just my thoughts.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 04:00 AM
Show him killing American guards...
That hard?

xXTheSquidXx
07-05-2012, 04:01 AM
Why are we having this conversation? Ubisoft doesn't hate Britain and Ubisoft also isn't incredible pro-american like many are accusing them of. Ubisoft is a French company and the majority of the game is being made in Canada. Now as for the accusations. All the trailers show British soldiers and officers getting killed because the "red coats" are a huge symbol to the American Revolutionary War. As for the kid, he, like every other person in the trailer, is showing defiance to the British Empire. Defiance is a very necessary part to a revolution, which is what all of these trailers are trying to show. Ubisoft is trying to show people revolutionary ideas and people form the time and trying to get everyone excited for the new setting. By quoting the kid defying British rule and saying that Ubisoft is telling their customers to not care about history is absurd. They are simply trying to get people excited about the game and are NOT trying to hate Britain or trying to pander to Americans.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 04:02 AM
The french have a LOOOOOOONG history with the British.

Ultim4teSurviv4
07-05-2012, 04:05 AM
Seems every single thread as of late is all about the poor pro-American marketing. I didn't really care for the live action trailer as I prefer gameplay footage, so this didn't really bother me at all.

But one thing I have noticed is that everyone else seems to be extremely worried about the direction of AC 3, take this picture for instance which is made by a Canadian user.

http://i48.tinypic.com/wtd3xd.gif



It's things like this that just add fuel to the fire, I haven't posted recently because it is all the same banter over and over again. I know I am probably going to be flamed for posting this but I don't care, I trust ubisoft and the fact of the matter is it is set in the revolutionary war and that is what the marketing team is showing, big deal, its not all black and white and from previous games I think everyone should know that there is always an underlying context of templars vs assassins. No need to over analyse every little detail in the situation ..... My 2 cents, im sure I will be bashed for writing it but still, have a little faith in the team

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 04:05 AM
That is such pure gold I am gonna make a special file for it and save it.

xXTheSquidXx
07-05-2012, 04:08 AM
The french have a LOOOOOOONG history with the British.

I did realize that right as hit send haha. I don't think a game company that is trying to make a profit would actively try to piss off an entire nation. And when I originally wrote that i was thinking a French company wouldn't be super pro american and wasn't thinking about the French vs British. But ya stupid of me to not realize that hahaha

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 04:12 AM
Some guy actually said this is a form of artistic revenge. Considering the way the marketing is? I can somewhat agree.

prime642
07-05-2012, 07:38 AM
History has multiple meanings. One meaning of "history" is the "national myth" of that country.
America's myth that is taught in all but the most liberal schools is of puritans fleeing religious oppression, noble patriots fighting against the tyrannical British, and heroic soldiers liberating slaves (north) or defending their homes (south), of saving Europe twice, and saving the world from communism by any means necessary.

Great Britain's national myth probably is more along the lines of celebrating Henry V as he crushed the french against hopeless odds, of the establishment of parliament and the rule of law, of the English fleet standing firm against Napoleon's empire, of civil servants bringing "civilization and order" to India, and of course- British troops trying hard to liberate slaves and protect Native Americans from the colonial savages, not to mention the Empire's troops and fleets holding off the Germans twice.

Every country has their national myth- when I see that boy refusing to "learn" one, I imagine he's refusing to believe the British myth of the time. As natural as a 1935 Asian Indian schoolboy refusing to learn from a textbook that British Colonization of India is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

SoullessKassidy
07-05-2012, 07:58 AM
seeing as ubi treats their British fans better than their NA fans, marketing doesn't mean ****

Kaiskune
07-05-2012, 10:02 AM
seeing as ubi treats their British fans better than their NA fans, marketing doesn't mean ****

how so? If you had no prior knowledge of the assassins creed series.. or just a blindly patriotic brit. a video of people denouncing the british empire being aired on the 4th of july could quite easily be seen as a pretty big proverbial middle finger to that nation.

I mean... its not like Ubisoft did anything special for Empire/Commonwealth day.

@ Prime- you'd be rather surprised how little you learn of British history in a UK school. you waste more time learning about the most boring period in history the tudors than anything else

eagleforlife1
07-05-2012, 10:12 AM
how so? If you had no prior knowledge of the assassins creed series.. or just a blindly patriotic brit. a video of people denouncing the british empire being aired on the 4th of july could quite easily be seen as a pretty big proverbial middle finger to that nation.

I mean... its not like Ubisoft did anything special for Empire/Commonwealth day.

@ Prime- you'd be rather surprised how little you learn of British history in a UK school. you waste more time learning about the most boring period in history the tudors than anything else

I learned about the Victorians which I found alright but not particuarly exciting.

Felix-Vivo
07-05-2012, 10:42 AM
I don't remember anything about history from school (and I only left school a few weeks back!) It's sad, but then again I was only required to learn history up until Year 9, so that's a good few years ago. If I'd played Assassin's Creed before then, I may have had a kind of respect for the subject. But then again, I don't think the first game was even released back then.

albertwesker22
07-05-2012, 10:50 AM
seeing as ubi treats their British fans better than their NA fans

Well their European fans in general ;)

D.I.D.
07-05-2012, 12:57 PM
History has multiple meanings. One meaning of "history" is the "national myth" of that country.
America's myth that is taught in all but the most liberal schools is of puritans fleeing religious oppression, noble patriots fighting against the tyrannical British, and heroic soldiers liberating slaves (north) or defending their homes (south), of saving Europe twice, and saving the world from communism by any means necessary.

Great Britain's national myth probably is more along the lines of celebrating Henry V as he crushed the french against hopeless odds, of the establishment of parliament and the rule of law, of the English fleet standing firm against Napoleon's empire, of civil servants bringing "civilization and order" to India, and of course- British troops trying hard to liberate slaves and protect Native Americans from the colonial savages, not to mention the Empire's troops and fleets holding off the Germans twice.

Every country has their national myth- when I see that boy refusing to "learn" one, I imagine he's refusing to believe the British myth of the time. As natural as a 1935 Asian Indian schoolboy refusing to learn from a textbook that British Colonization of India is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

A very good reply. Thank you for engaging me on the substance of what I said.

Somewhere in this sprawling conversation I suggested something along those lines when I pointed out that it would be so much better if he said:

"I reject the history of a country I'll never see"

because it would be much more powerful. It would show that this emerging unity runs down as deeply as the children's viewpoint, and that the tyranny extends as far as cultural indoctrination. It would be an unambiguously contemporary viewpoint, and it would still work with the image of the child being punished by the teacher. To reject the history would be a different thing entirely from:

"I refuse to learn the history of a country I'll never see"

which aligns an anachronistic attitude with the history in a clumsy way. The ad is meant to tell the customer that each of these things is why the USA is built on Awesome, and I have no problem with that as long as it doesn't end up battling one type of hubris with yet another. That's why it immediately made me wonder about the motives; who is it they're trying to speak to here, and why?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 01:59 PM
I reject the history would have been so much better, plus, reject is a stronger word.

Locopells
07-15-2012, 02:07 AM
Great Britain's national myth probably is more along the lines of celebrating Henry V as he crushed the french against hopeless odds, of the establishment of parliament and the rule of law, of the English fleet standing firm against Napoleon's empire, of civil servants bringing "civilization and order" to India, and of course- British troops trying hard to liberate slaves and protect Native Americans from the colonial savages, not to mention the Empire's troops and fleets holding off the Germans twice.

Some people might think that, but it sure ain't taught like that. Though mind you, we were holding off the Germans in WWII. We just didn't have the numbers to take Europe on our own.

Henry V is only covered if you do the Shakespeare play in English, Parliament is only mentioned in relation to the Civil Wars, Napoleon isn't taught at all. I can't remember if we were taught anything about India during the Empire, but I don't think so, War of Independence likewise, and while Pre-WWII and everyday life during it are taught, we get very little of the actual fighting.

Might have changed though.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-15-2012, 07:03 AM
Wait, what does the National Anthem have to do with the trailer?

shanethebouncer
07-15-2012, 07:31 AM
This shouldn't have been such a large thread, the OP simply took this quote out of context.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-15-2012, 07:35 AM
It was back when there was ALOT of heat on Ubisoft over the marketing, so yeah.

shanethebouncer
07-15-2012, 07:37 AM
That does not change the fact that the OP blindly accused Ubisoft of something that he clearly didn't think threw.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-15-2012, 07:39 AM
Too be fair, using the word ''reject'' would have been better :p

shanethebouncer
07-15-2012, 07:42 AM
Yes they could have been more careful with what was said in light of the recent updraft of Pro American Bias accusations.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-15-2012, 07:58 AM
It is a big case of Pro American Bias, so they really should be more careful
The marketing team is not exactly competent, so meh.

SoullessKassidy
07-15-2012, 08:08 AM
they need to be pro America somewhere lol, cuz it is not in real life.....

****ty belt buckle and no jorunal smh

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-15-2012, 08:09 AM
they need to be pro America somewhere lol, cuz it is not in real life.....

****ty belt buckle and no jorunal smh

What are you trying to convey here? we understand you dislike the NA LE, but dont derail other threads for it /: