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View Full Version : How to balance stun in AC3



mockers00
06-25-2012, 01:08 AM
First off, I do not hate stun or think stun is over powerd by any means, I just think it has a few issues and kinks like many thing's in AC MP has.

Here are some suggestions for kind of balancing stun or altering it somewhat.

-No more long range stun's. Why?: Because no one like's getting super man punched from a mile away.

*kind of Confirmed* -No more stun promote. Why?: Because how is fair? it should take skill and abilities to spot out who your pursuer is, it's not to hard to spot them out.

*Confirmed* -Get penalized/cool down for stunning npc. Why?: Because how is fair that you can punch the whole crowd and the player with no penalty. Plus it balances the game for people stunning 24/7, this is why no stun promote is speculated not to be in the game because you are peanilzed for stunning npc's.

-You cannot stun the same person for 10-20 seconds. Why?: Because alot of people like to wait around and keep stunning over and over and it becomes a circle of stuns and assinate. This would encourage the player to stun just one player once and run away instead of creating huge stun wars. However many seconds is more balancing. I personally think 15 seconds would be fine. maybe even 10. Or even 5 seconds and that only starts when the person get's back up from the stun.

-Reward well timed and sneaky stuff and decrease running stuns and rushed stuns Why?: Make stuns more about how you did it and how sneaky you did it and why it was wise to do it. I know that luring then stunning I believe get's you more points and I realize you do need to run to stun to get away but sneakier stuns and more discreet stuns should be rewarded.

Bonus Balance key Smoke Bomb: I like smoke bomb, I hate smoke bomb circles though.

*Confirmed*-Make Smoke bombs cooldown longer. Why?: So people can't use it 24/7

-Be able to assinate someone if they threw the smoke bomb late. Why?: Because people use smoke bombs as a quick savior of not being assinated, Smoke bombs should be more focused on timing to avoid assination. If the person already initiated the assinate in time players should not be able to throw smoke last minute and avoid it.

-Does not last aslong. Why?: Just cut the duration down just a tad and it will be perfect.

Drakuaza
06-25-2012, 01:38 AM
Sprint Boost would help counter the long stun range, since you will come close to them super fast that they wont see what got them. Sprint boost needs to return to ACIII

pioneerprogres
06-25-2012, 01:47 AM
You already can't endlessly stun someone right after you've just stunned them, in ACR at least. Try it out for yourself. In the amount of time it takes for the person to get back up, get stunned by a teammate, and get up again, you can stun them again, but that's already the sort of time frame you've mentioned.

mockers00
06-25-2012, 01:57 AM
You already can't endlessly stun someone right after you've just stunned them, in ACR at least. Try it out for yourself. In the amount of time it takes for the person to get back up, get stunned by a teammate, and get up again, you can stun them again, but that's already the sort of time frame you've mentioned.

What I ment is when they get back up, you can stun them and when their is a group of stunners it is possiable to keep doing it. Some people keep stunning until they die, and they will stick around and keep stunning when you get back up. What I ment is when you get back up, you should not be able to get stunned by the same player for 5 seconds.

Either make it when you get back up you cannot be stunned by the same person for 5 seconds or you cannot be stunned by anyone on the opposing team for 5 seconds. This would make people not stick around and make a stunning war out of it and kind of fear pursuers a little bit more rather then acting like asassasins.

Drakuza I can tell you really love sprint boost xD, I dunno if should be back in but if they can balance it in I would not mind it.

pioneerprogres
06-25-2012, 02:18 AM
What I ment is when they get back up, you can stun them and when their is a group of stunners it is possiable to keep doing it. Some people keep stunning until they die, and they will stick around and keep stunning when you get back up. What I ment is when you get back up, you should not be able to get stunned by the same player for 5 seconds.

Either make it when you get back up you cannot be stunned by the same person for 5 seconds or you cannot be stunned by anyone on the opposing team for 5 seconds. This would make people not stick around and make a stunning war out of it and kind of fear pursuers a little bit more rather then acting like asassasins.

Drakuza I can tell you really love sprint boost xD, I dunno if should be back in but if they can balance it in I would not mind it.

Right, that's what I mean. Somebody else has to stun them when they get up. The same person can't just keep stunning them over and over. I dunno if brotherhood allows it, but ACR does not.

mockers00
06-25-2012, 02:44 AM
Right, that's what I mean. Somebody else has to stun them when they get up. The same person can't just keep stunning them over and over. I dunno if brotherhood allows it, but ACR does not.

I am 80% sure the same person can stun you after you get back up. I am pretty sure ACR allows it, I could of swore the same person stunned me twice. I could be wrong but even so maybe it would be best if no one cans tun you for 5 secs after you get up, that way it stops stun racking up points and makes hiders fear persuers more.

BATISTABUS
06-25-2012, 03:37 AM
Here's an idea. I just thought of it so it might have some problems but I'll give it a shot.

I think points for stuns should be proportional to the pursuer's notoriety. I think a big part of stuns receiving buffs (honorable death, contested kill, possibly range) from Brotherhood to Revelations was due to players playing stealthily, clearly being able to know who their pursuer was, and not winning the stun on someone that obviously was not trying to hide. If the pursuer is in high-profile and his/her contract is (or was just) blending, the person who stuns them should be rewarded greatly. This doesn't directly benefit stealthy players, but it provides a huge dis-incentive for running around. This will also encourage contracts to try to escape in a chase rather than stun, because they will be rewarded fewer points.

AwkwardlyBruta
06-25-2012, 04:16 AM
-No more long range stun's. Why?: Because no one like's getting super man punched from a mile away.



That's lag.




-You cannot stun the same person for 10-20 seconds. Why?: Because alot of people like to wait around and keep stunning over and over and it becomes a circle of stuns and assinate. This would encourage the player to stun just one player once and run away instead of creating huge stun wars. However many seconds is more balancing. I personally think 15 seconds would be fine. maybe even 10. Or even 5 seconds and that only starts when the person get's back up from the stun.



You already can't do this. The only way they can stun you afterwords is either by dropping LL smoke as you get up, or by running away and corner stunning you a few seconds later.



-Reward well timed and sneaky stuff and decrease running stuns and rushed stuns Why?: Make stuns more about how you did it and how sneaky you did it and why it was wise to do it. I know that luring then stunning I believe get's you more points and I realize you do need to run to stun to get away but sneakier stuns and more discreet stuns should be rewarded.



I don't see why that would matter in the slightest, If I run behind my hunter before he can react, that's as stealthy as I needed to be, he didn't see me I didn't use an ability, it's his fault for not watching his back.




-Be able to assinate someone if they threw the smoke bomb late. Why?: Because people use smoke bombs as a quick savior of not being assinated, Smoke bombs should be more focused on timing to avoid assination. If the person already initiated the assinate in time players should not be able to throw smoke last minute and avoid it.



A patch made smoke react the way it does, before it did actually have a delay, but people complained about it.




-Does not last aslong. Why?: Just cut the duration down just a tad and it will be perfect.

The reason it lasts so long is the person using it probably has it crafted for long lasting smoke, so it's an issue with the crafting system. But honestly I don't have a problem with the duration, it's long enough to just get two stuns, or three if you drop the smoke in the middle of your first stun with either a dumb hunter, or a mute first.

protesticle
06-25-2012, 04:20 AM
First off, I do not hate stun or think stun is over powerd by any means, I just think it has a few issues and kinks like many thing's in AC MP has.

Here are some suggestions for kind of balancing stun or altering it somewhat.

-No more long range stun's. Why?: Because
1. X/Square should have an advantage over B/Circle
2. People slide stunning
3. Discourages high risk play

In AC:B the stun promote appeared but 9/10 it was too late you had already died or were poisoned, unless someone made a mistake or high risk move the kill would occur when NO abilities were used.

Any good ACB player would mash the living **** out of the stun button (even on npcs) if we thought they were going to kill us, not because we saw a B but because it wasn't worth the risk if they were trying to poison. My point is with a shorter stun range the B prompt won't appear until much later making it a non issue!

In ACB there already is a cooldown on stunning a pursuer but it allowed for players to stun lock if the conditions were met (no resistance, enough team mates etc.). In ACR it was only possible with the use of abilities and assisted but enlarged stun range and much shorter cooldowns (boost cooldowns 5 loss streak?) this lead to the worst type of stun locks because they became much "messier" and unpredictable, consequently if you were a new player you would be extremly frustrated at this system and avoid manhunt. If you make the cooldown on stun even longer even with the assistance of abilities you will no longer be able to viably stun lock. What good player is going to sit in a blend circle and blend and potentially get a couple of stuns then die. No they will either spawn rush stuns and die for resets or they will avoid unfavourable encounters by running on roofs and getting cheap stun and runs. Blend is not viable unless you are with a team because it puts you in a terrible position to defend yourself.

Stun locking encouraged the exact proper play for players to use their abilities to get a viable result. If you think getting a stun lock is easy in ACB then I ****ing challenge you to go enter a ranked lobby and just see how much better everyone is at defending against it. The only people that don't like stun locks are the ones incapable of beating a player with the advantage on their side. YES Kills in ACB are eaier then stuns in ACB, but stun locks are easier in ACB then ACR. Fixing stun locks is not the issue. The issue is all you retarts that can't stop a stun lock because you were never taught how to. Stun lock is the reward for being the better team or the reward for the other team ****ing up. If they said PRESS Y/Triangle and made it faster to spawn in then stun locks wouldn't matter the other team and still reward teh defense. If they said HEY use resistance because your stats say your getting **** pumped this round or hey try using this ability because templar vision is not helping you! No they just removed it which doesn't do anything to improve the quality of the game it takes away from it.

People rush stuns because it's so much more effective then using stealth against someone that has a compass, it's hard enough to stealth kill especially against a better player let a lone stealth stun. Like I said X/Square should beat B/Circle you both have the same abilities but in ACB you get the advantage so stun locks rarely occur among equal skill players. People rushing stuns as soon as they spawn are diferent this just takes away from manhunt team work and any care for the system because they know they can die with an honourable death and reduce the enemies points in doing so. Taking manhunt back to its roots would enrich the quality of the game.

Smoke bomb is not over powered but over used. Definitely make smoke bomb cooldown longer people love this ability because they love the way it was made in ACB but too much of a good thing is bad for you. This ability is no worse then mute maybe even a lot better so why has it got a shorter cooldown then mute? Also remember (boost cooldowns halves its cooldown and resets its use). Remove the ability to drop abilities during abilities like killing and stunning adds an unpredicatable element to an already challenging game. No new player is going to understand what happens when they start coughing during an enemies kill/stun animation and again it just makes the game unecessarily messy.

/rant

obliviondoll
06-25-2012, 05:05 AM
-No more long range stun's. Why?: Because no one like's getting super man punched from a mile away.

ACB never had this problem. ACR did, because stun range and kill range were equal. With the stun prompt, this is too much power in the hands of the target, and promotes "rush stuns" where you run in and get the stun before the pursuer gets a kill prompt because of lag.


*kind of Confirmed* -No more stun promote. Why?: Because how is fair? it should take skill and abilities to spot out who your pursuer is, it's not to hard to spot them out.

Not just "kind of" confirmed. AC3 DEFINITELY and WITHOUT DOUBT has no stun prompt any more. You ONLY have one prompt, the same one, over EVERY character you can interact with, player or NPC.


*Confirmed* -Get penalized/cool down for stunning npc. Why?: Because how is fair that you can punch the whole crowd and the player with no penalty. Plus it balances the game for people stunning 24/7, this is why no stun promote is speculated not to be in the game because you are peanilzed for stunning npc's.

This wasn't needed in ACB, but would have gone a long way towards making ACR stunning less OP.


-You cannot stun the same person for 10-20 seconds. Why?: Because alot of people like to wait around and keep stunning over and over and it becomes a circle of stuns and assinate. This would encourage the player to stun just one player once and run away instead of creating huge stun wars. However many seconds is more balancing. I personally think 15 seconds would be fine. maybe even 10. Or even 5 seconds and that only starts when the person get's back up from the stun.

This is stupid. In ACB on release, a single player could stunlock a pursuer. They patched this very early on, because it was cheap to get knocked down then basically trapped because a guy decided to stand over you mashing a button. The patch allowed a TEAM to hold targets down if they could work together well and got lucky with their targets being bad at the game, but this was only a problem when inexperienced or bad players went up against a full team of skilled and coordinated players. In ACR, they removed even that, to be more "noob friendly" - The main reason to remove stunlocking was Alliance, because it's the only mode where the person getting stunlocked didn't have a simple one-button escape, and as well as removing stunlocking, they removed Alliance, thus completely invalidating the only benefit they got from the removal of stunlocking.

1. Provide semi-competent tutorials for multiplayer (yet to be done in an Assassin's Creed game)
2. Return EITHER stunlocking OR Alliance (or return both but disable it in Alliance)


-Reward well timed and sneaky stuff and decrease running stuns and rushed stuns Why?: Make stuns more about how you did it and how sneaky you did it and why it was wise to do it. I know that luring then stunning I believe get's you more points and I realize you do need to run to stun to get away but sneakier stuns and more discreet stuns should be rewarded.

As mentioned before, rush stuns are a symptom of equal range for stun and kill, because a fast-moving player can exploit lag to make their action occur before the opponent is given the relevant prompt. I still believe that contested kill should have a slightly longer range than a normal kill and that kill should have a longer range than stun, to prevent exactly these problems.


-Be able to assinate someone if they threw the smoke bomb late. Why?: Because people use smoke bombs as a quick savior of not being assinated, Smoke bombs should be more focused on timing to avoid assination. If the person already initiated the assinate in time players should not be able to throw smoke last minute and avoid it.

-Does not last aslong. Why?: Just cut the duration down just a tad and it will be perfect.

First part is due to ACR post-patch Smoke Bomb having no delay. In ACB, the beta had Smoke Bomb with a full second delay, and it was bad, and people complained about it. In ACB they had a half-second delay, and it was fine until they "fixed matchmaking" and the increase in lag made it sometimes work properly and other times act like it had a 2 - 3 second delay on its effect. ACR kept ACB's lag issues, but increased the delay to a full second to make the lag-based fluctuations less obvious. The patch removed the delay completely.

1. Fix lag issues. (LIKE WE'VE BEEN ASKING SINCE MARCH LAST YEAR)
2. Have a half-second delay on Smoke again (LIKE WE HAD IN ACB, WHERE THE ABILITY ACTUALLY WORKED)

As for the ability duration, having Smoke last for 3 seconds, with a "long lasting" version that lasted for 4 seconds was fine in ACB. In ACR, crafting allowed the same amount of improvement, which, once again, is fine, because you give up other advantages to gain that benefit.


What I ment is when they get back up, you can stun them and when their is a group of stunners it is possiable to keep doing it. Some people keep stunning until they die, and they will stick around and keep stunning when you get back up. What I ment is when you get back up, you should not be able to get stunned by the same player for 5 seconds.

Either make it when you get back up you cannot be stunned by the same person for 5 seconds or you cannot be stunned by anyone on the opposing team for 5 seconds. This would make people not stick around and make a stunning war out of it and kind of fear pursuers a little bit more rather then acting like asassasins.

Stunlocking is a fair tactic, because it rewards and encourages GOOD TEAMWORK. Removing it would make people more likely to act alone and avoid teammates. This is still a bad idea.


Right, that's what I mean. Somebody else has to stun them when they get up. The same person can't just keep stunning them over and over. I dunno if brotherhood allows it, but ACR does not.

In ACB, there was an early patch (one of the good ones before the pre-3.0 patch in March) where they fixed it. On release, a single player could stunlock. Post-release, you needed teammates helping to keep someone down.


Smoke bomb is not over powered but over used. Definitely make smoke bomb cooldown longer people love this ability because they love the way it was made in ACB but too much of a good thing is bad for you. This ability is no worse then mute maybe even a lot better so why has it got a shorter cooldown then mute? Also remember (boost cooldowns halves its cooldown and resets its use). Remove the ability to drop abilities during abilities like killing and stunning adds an unpredicatable element to an already challenging game. No new player is going to understand what happens when they start coughing during an enemies kill/stun animation and again it just makes the game unecessarily messy.

In ACB, Smoke isn't totally OP, but it's borderline, and could use an increased cooldown to be balanced. In pre-patch ACR it was relatively well balanced, but the awkwardness of the delay made it frustrating and unreliable, and lag made that even worse. Post-patch ACR Smoke is horribly OP and DESPERATELY needs a nerf AND cooldown increase.

BATISTABUS
06-25-2012, 09:31 AM
Stunlocking is a fair tactic, because it rewards and encourages GOOD TEAMWORK. Removing it would make people more likely to act alone and avoid teammates. This is still a bad idea.
But you think the team that is supposed to be hiding is instead blatantly standing out in the open, constantly throwing smoke bombs, and making their pursuers fear them is a good thing? There are still plenty of (more creative and varied) ways that players can work together defensively.

The fact that the defending team would even ATTEMPT this, never mind regularly employ it and succeed, means that the intended direction of the multiplayer has failed and needs to be changed in some way.

Archybad
06-25-2012, 09:33 AM
Smoke bomb is not over powered but over used. Definitely make smoke bomb cooldown longer people love this ability because they love the way it was made in ACB but too much of a good thing is bad for you. This ability is no worse then mute maybe even a lot better so why has it got a shorter cooldown then mute? Also remember (boost cooldowns halves its cooldown and resets its use). Remove the ability to drop abilities during abilities like killing and stunning adds an unpredicatable element to an already challenging game. No new player is going to understand what happens when they start coughing during an enemies kill/stun animation and again it just makes the game unecessarily messy.

/rant
Smoke is OP.

Its cooldown is too short for the ways it can be used in, and giving it the mute effect CONSIDERING ITS RADIUS IS ONLY MARGINALLY SHORTER THAN MUTE NOW is why it's so OP. The game needs an ability to prevent people charging in and killing you, but it shouldn't mute them in the process. Drop the cooldown, buff the radius, remove the mute. Smoke is now balanced.

obliviondoll
06-25-2012, 10:14 AM
But you think the team that is supposed to be hiding is instead blatantly standing out in the open, constantly throwing smoke bombs, and making their pursuers fear them is a good thing? There are still plenty of (more creative and varied) ways that players can work together defensively.

The fact that the defending team would even ATTEMPT this, never mind regularly employ it and succeed, means that the intended direction of the multiplayer has failed and needs to be changed in some way.

The instructions are "hide AND SURVIVE" not just to hide. The game still isn't ALL about stealth, there are other elements that should be emphasised, and an aggressive defense shouldn't be punished like it sometimes can be in ACR even by less skilled and less organised teams.

You can ONLY succeed at stunlocking when your team is BOTH coordinated AND skilled, and the opposing team is NEITHER. This would be a problem for ACR's broken matchmaking, and can occasionally be difficult in ACB when you have a coordinated team vs. randoms and get unlucky enough that there are no good players on the team of randoms (and as someone who's NOT a top-level player in ACB, I can break a stunlock solo, so yes, it IS possible for one person to break a stunlock alone). Barring those situations, which are almost required in ACR, but were quite rare in ACB, stunlocking isn't a problem.

mockers00
06-25-2012, 10:29 AM
I do not have an issue with the defending team being a little aggressive, I just have an issue with the defending team almost being equivalent to pursuers. Which is not always the case but I think everyone can agree stun is just a tad kinked. Just a few adjustments could make it just right. There already taking the steps aka no stun promote, penalized for hitting npc's.

pioneerprogres
06-25-2012, 12:14 PM
With the stun prompt in ACR, I'd say it's hard to argue that the intended direction of defensive play is anything but near-offensive.

BATISTABUS
06-25-2012, 10:58 PM
The instructions are "hide AND SURVIVE" not just to hide.

The game still isn't ALL about stealth, there are other elements that should be emphasised, and an aggressive defense shouldn't be punished like it sometimes can be in ACR even by less skilled and less organised teams.

You can ONLY succeed at stunlocking when your team is BOTH coordinated AND skilled, and the opposing team is NEITHER.
Yes, survive as in run away and escape your pursuer, not ATTACK. Like it or not, stunlocking is attacking. The DEFENDING team should not be able to mount an attack almost equal to that of the offensive team.

The game isn't all about stealth, but that's why there are different modes. There are modes made for free-running, modes made for stealth, and modes made to be agressive. Personally, I think manhunt (a game based on a variant of Hide-and-Seek) should be overwhelmingly stealth-based.

Perhaps, but it takes much more skill to get out of a stunlock than to preform one.

obliviondoll
06-26-2012, 07:00 AM
The DEFENDING team should not be able to mount an attack almost equal to that of the offensive team.

No, they shouldn't. And they CAN'T.

As mentioned (multiple times now), even a SINGLE competent pursuer can break a stunlock ALONE, and that stunlock could ONLY be initiated with a FULL TEAM of skilled players, and even then it requires them to be working together.

And no, it DOESN'T take more skill to break a stunlock than perform one. Not even close.

AwkwardlyBruta
06-26-2012, 07:10 AM
Perhaps, but it takes much more skill to get out of a stunlock than to preform one.

Because it takes more skill to hit Y/Triangle then to stun an entire enemy team?

obliviondoll
06-26-2012, 07:38 AM
Because it takes more skill to hit Y/Triangle then to stun an entire enemy team?

I didn't know you had to stun the entire enemy team after a desync for it to count? And how are you even able to stun people when it's your hunting round (no, glitches DON'T count)?

AwkwardlyBruta
06-26-2012, 08:03 AM
I didn't know you had to stun the entire enemy team after a desync for it to count? And how are you even able to stun people when it's your hunting round (no, glitches DON'T count)?


Aside from you egging me about my grammar again, I once had a hunting round where my targets had B-Prompts, I could stun my targets, get 200 points, then I could grounded focus them, I even stunned a target the same time he stunned me, I thought it was hilarious.