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ferretincabinet
09-10-2004, 09:21 AM
I know that Italian submarines operated in the Atlantic (and of course the mediterranean http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)It would be really nice if even one of the Italian boats was availble for use in the Atlantic - and (okay a real wish-list item here) - others available in the mediterranean under Supermarina's contol...

Any thoughts people?

ferretincabinet
09-10-2004, 09:21 AM
I know that Italian submarines operated in the Atlantic (and of course the mediterranean http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)It would be really nice if even one of the Italian boats was availble for use in the Atlantic - and (okay a real wish-list item here) - others available in the mediterranean under Supermarina's contol...

Any thoughts people?

Shan_Hackett
09-10-2004, 10:05 AM
The Italian submarines were designed parcificaly for the calmer Mediterranean sea, and their sea keeping was wholely lacking for Atlantic operations.

The BETASOM - Italian submarine command of operations in the Atlantic- deployed some 18 boats to operate along side the Kreigsmarine.
10 were lost in combat, and a futher 5 sank due to "Accidents".
Karl Donitz himself rejected the Italian submarines, and excluded them from further German operations.

U1409
09-11-2004, 01:42 AM
Hmm, yeah, the only italian submarine I would like to see in the game would be the SLC or "slow moving torpedo" used during covert operations. It basically looks like a torpedo with seats.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The most famous SLC attack of the war was also launched from Sciré, two months later - the sinking of the British battleships Queen Elizabeth and Valiant in Alexandria on the night of 18-19 November 1941. Three SLCs penetrated Alexandria, two of which laid their warheads correctly. The attack commander, Count Luigi de la Pene, was captured with his second in command, Bianchi, and interrogated aboard Valiant while the warhead's time-fuze was still running. As they would give nothing away, they were imprisoned deep in the battleship until de la Pene, knowing that nothing the British did now would be of any use, sent Captain Morgan the message 'Your ship will blow up in five minutes.' The Italians were on deck when the two battleships shook to violent explosions and settled on the harbour bed. They were as sunk as ships could be in such shallow water, and the Italian Navy now had the domination of the Mediterranean within its grasp, but the opportunity was wasted. Both battleships still had their upper decks well above water, and were able to simulate readiness for sea by emitting funnel smoke. With the four men from the other two SLCs all captured ashore, it was not until months later that the Italian Navy learned what a chance they had missed. For the time being, the British had no answer to SLC attacks apart from vigilance and the formation of special diving parties to search ships' bottoms for unexploded charges.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Source: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/chalcraft/sm/chariots.html

__________
"Einmal vor Unerbittlichen stehen, wo keine Mutter, sich nach uns umsieht,
wo nur die Wirklichkeit herrscht, Grausam und Gro&#223;"

LPV
09-11-2004, 05:06 AM
Correct me if Im wrong but italian submarines wernt very effective. Wernt more UBouts send to the mediterranean because of this? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/sonar.gif

run slient run deep!

CB..
09-11-2004, 05:24 AM
while on the one hand Italian submarines never kept up with the improvements in technology (as developed by the Germans for example) they did have reliable torpedoes and never had any difficulty running the Gauntlet at Gibralter..in fact (and i was surprised to hear this) it wasn't at all un-usual (AFAIK) for Italian subs to be assigned a patrol zone in the Atlantic...yet leave from and return to a Med port...running the gauntlet twice in one mission (dont ask me what they did or how they negotiated the currents on the way out)....it was comparitively quite rare for an Italian sub to be sunk whilst running the gauntlet..so they can't have been that obsolete/ineffective..go figure http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

legend has it that the German crews found the Gibralter journey an appalling prospect..the Italian crews did this trip as a matter of routine..has to be an interesting story there..

[This message was edited by CB.. on Sat September 11 2004 at 04:34 AM.]

LPV
09-11-2004, 06:38 AM
it was comparitively quite rare for an Italian sub to be sunk.
But what was there tonnage per sunken Sub? If its quite low it might indicate that they didnt attack many allied ships hence the low numbers of Italian subs sunk.

run slient run deep!

Joe the Killerman
09-11-2004, 06:43 AM
Or cargo ships steaming in Mediterraneum were smaller.

The italian navy showed great readiness and had an important role, until Matapan battle I think http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Das Panzerkunst!

Xanthippus
09-11-2004, 07:01 AM
The Italian navy had significant capabilities, but notable weaknesses in key areas always meant that the service never had the impact it could of had. A significant threat for much of '40-42 however.

TASKFORCE1x1
09-11-2004, 01:35 PM
FYI Movies for further viewing Italian subs--

There is a good movie that I rented from Netflix called Submarine Attack. Has some good footage and action inside and outside the italian subs.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Keep on Smiling'

Bruno_Lotse
09-11-2004, 02:29 PM
Germans actually used Italian submarines as well. I know at least four Italian-build subs of Calvi class which were manned by German crews and operated from Bordeaux (12th Flotilla). These are : UIT-22, UIT-23, UIT-24 and UIT-25. Interestingly, UIT-25 at the time of German surrender was in Japan. There it was taken over by Japanese and commissioned as I-504. Calvi class was similar to German Type IX-B. Here you can also find some statistics of successes archived by Italian Calvi subs manned by Italian crews in the battle for Atlantic ( http://digilander.libero.it/canarb/marina/sommergibili/calvi/calvi.htm )

ferretincabinet
09-12-2004, 01:08 AM
Well I'm not too fussed about their oversized conning towers (I think some were later cut down), their poor seakeeping, different tactics or whatever - but it would be a nice bit of variety - and of course the torpedoes would at least work! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

macker33
10-10-2004, 04:33 PM
Well it was the Italians who invented frogmen as we know them today(frogmen with cylanders of air on their back).Up until then divers had to have air pumped down to them.
I would like to see the human torpedos the Italians developed,the one that two frogmen rode and attatched mines to the bottom of ships with.

SailorSteve
10-10-2004, 10:24 PM
Actually the Aqualung, or SCUBA (Self Contained Underwater Breathing Aparatus) was co-invented by two Frenchmen, Jacques Cousteau and Emille Gagnan. But I think you're right, earliest use of frogmen for combat purposes was indeed by the Italians.

bertgang
10-11-2004, 04:17 AM
I'm very pleased to see some interest in italian submarines.

For further information on this topic, follow my links:

http://www.subnetitalia.it/regiosom.htm
http://www.regiamarina.it/submarines.htm
http://www.sommergibili.com/
(italian/english)

http://www.trentoincina.it/somital.htm
(italian only)

Redwine
10-11-2004, 06:35 AM
If i dont remember bad........ at early times of the war the tonnage record of italian subs was very similar to the german subs.......

This level of effectivity was not posible to maintain, due to Italy was not well prepeared to the economic effort of the war.......and italian subs was not fitted with the same technologic advances as the german subs....... plus, the quantity of the italian subs was not high or enough as germans quantities, due to economic problems.

This enforce to italian Capitans to develop their actions as in WW1 conditions.........

Italy was one of the most proliphic nations in submarine design...........

bertgang
10-11-2004, 08:26 AM
Quite right, Redwine.

The total allied tonnage sunk by italian subs was not great, but the tonnage for each sub was close to german and american standards; some units and captains fought very well, with career or patrol records similar to german aces.

The strange thing is that we had no reason to fight.
Mussolini declared war to allies when France was near to be defeated, thinking to an armistice with british as soon; he wanted only a chair at the winner's table...

HeibgesU999
10-11-2004, 02:29 PM
Admiral Doentiz, in his memoirs, says the Italian Submarines enjoyed considerable success operating alone, against single ships, away from the major convoy routes.

They did not have great sucess operating with German wolfpacks in combined operations.

Doenitz thought if might have something to do with the Italian temperment.

bertgang
10-12-2004, 04:20 AM
Maybe Doenitz was thinking to me, I'm a better hunter alone than in a wolfpack (AoD experience, of course...).

Speaking seriously, our national temperment was probably a factor, but not the only factor.

On the "human" side, I'll add problems from different chain of command and language.
On the technical side, our boats were less advanced.

Redwine
10-12-2004, 08:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
Admiral Doentiz, in his memoirs, says the Italian Submarines enjoyed considerable success operating alone, against single ships, away from the major convoy routes.

They did not have great sucess operating with German wolfpacks in combined operations.

Doenitz thought if might have something to do with the Italian temperment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes I cant imagine an italian Capitano under command and oreders of a german Kapitan..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

But lot of italian Capitani was onboard U-botte for training, Otto Kretschmer was training them in his missions...........

About the italian temperament we must to be ware of "hollywood stereotypes", italians are today a pack of diferent civilizations but they have the "herence" (legacy) of Roman mind.......... and Roman mind was one of most quiet, calm, cold and calculator minds in the history.............

Philipscdrw
10-12-2004, 06:50 PM
Can we have some Holland-class boats while we're at it?

"-.-- --- ..- .- .-. . ... ..- -. -.- -.-.-." - Message from early Holland to large battleship during pre-war exercises c.1905

Jose.MaC
10-12-2004, 07:41 PM
At least, if the game is enought modable, may be done by the community.