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Yellonet
07-10-2004, 10:00 AM
Or planes that never actually flew?

Or in a WW2 simulation flying an aircraft that was not used in said war? E.g. Bearcat.

Personally I can't see what's so appealing about these planes.. you can't really pretend that you're in a WW2 battle, because the plane you're flying wasn't available... so, why?

Is it only people who want an "edge" in a non-historical game of air-quake who wants these planes so badly?

Or is it serious simmers that want to experience a certain what-if scenario?

Personally I don't see any need for such aircraft at all, I want to fly historical missions/dogfights with planes that actually made a difference in the PTO.

Planes that wasn't in the PTO shouldn't be in a PTO-sim.


- Yellonet

[This message was edited by Yellonet on Sat July 10 2004 at 09:15 AM.]

Yellonet
07-10-2004, 10:00 AM
Or planes that never actually flew?

Or in a WW2 simulation flying an aircraft that was not used in said war? E.g. Bearcat.

Personally I can't see what's so appealing about these planes.. you can't really pretend that you're in a WW2 battle, because the plane you're flying wasn't available... so, why?

Is it only people who want an "edge" in a non-historical game of air-quake who wants these planes so badly?

Or is it serious simmers that want to experience a certain what-if scenario?

Personally I don't see any need for such aircraft at all, I want to fly historical missions/dogfights with planes that actually made a difference in the PTO.

Planes that wasn't in the PTO shouldn't be in a PTO-sim.


- Yellonet

[This message was edited by Yellonet on Sat July 10 2004 at 09:15 AM.]

FRAGAL
07-10-2004, 10:13 AM
i'm not mate i'll fly nething, if i happen to like a certain plane i'll usually fly that one or if i get bored with it i'll move onto something else thats more of a challenge.

Penguin_PFF
07-10-2004, 10:20 AM
All kidding aside, I've been wondering that myself. I get a lot more pleasure out of flying things like the 109E/F, the I-16, or the older planes than I do the only-four-hundred-built, last-two-weeks-of-the-war hot rods. I've never understood the fascination with überplanes. It's the same like with cars... 650K+ Ferraris are interesting as a curiosity, but they are by no means the reality.

In real life, though, obviously if I'm standing on a carrier deck and there are forty Kamikaze A6M5's coming in, and I've got the choice between an F8F and an F6F, it's the Bearcat every time. No brainer.

"Or is it serious simmers that want to experience a certain what-if scenario?"

Hopefully, yes. Air Quake sucks. :P

I do really want to fly the Bearcat and Hellcat both. Mainly because they were both extraordinary designs, and Grumman products. But if I look at, say, the F4U line... I'm much more interested in a birdcage F4U-1 than a U-4 or an FG-whatever überCorsair.

heywooood
07-10-2004, 10:22 AM
Yellonet - Personally I am happy to fly whatever the good people behind this project are willing to make... after all - we can select planesets ourselves.

As Penguin and planeater are often saying.. these planes take a preponderance of work to create and make flyable so it seems that the least I can do is appreciate the efforts - besides as I have often said - if they make it, I will fly it. Happily - with a big ol' grin - thank-you modelers and devs.



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

owlwatcher
07-10-2004, 10:22 AM
It is not about the best,at least for me. Take the Bearcat, it was heading to the combat zone.
Recreating what if,s and seeing how they might perform in combat.
The Bearcat was meant for small decks. Might be fun if a CVE is included in the game.

Ilya-Mourometz
07-10-2004, 10:25 AM
Yellonet, I share your opinion, if you want to fly better aircraft, you just have to buy another Sim

The flying Dutchman

Yellonet
07-10-2004, 10:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I do really want to fly the Bearcat and Hellcat both. Mainly because they were both extraordinary designs, and Grumman products. But if I look at, say, the F4U line... I'm much more interested in a birdcage F4U-1 than a U-4 or an FG-whatever überCorsair.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would fly the Bearcat a few times just to feel the power and speed, just as I have with the Me-163, but if I had to choose which plane would be in PF on release between the F8F and ANY other plane that saw action in the pacific, it would have to be the latter, no hesitation.

The F8F and other wasn't-in-the-war and only-flew-three-missions along with late '45 planes could be in the payable addon "œberplanes of the Pacific" that wouldn't update the version (you could choose not to buy and still play online). Then the historically correct http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif addon could be developed at the same time as the other and we wouldn't have to hear the "I want my überplane now"-whine all the time as each addon would get it's own forum... Man do I have some great ideas! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif


- Yellonet

Penguin_PFF
07-10-2004, 10:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by owlwatcher:
It is not about the best,at least for me. Take the Bearcat, it was heading to the combat zone.
Recreating what if,s and seeing how they might perform in combat.
The Bearcat was meant for small decks. Might be fun if a CVE is included in the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree.

But think also of the problem of gameplay balance... And before you do, forget Il-2 and FB, because this is not the Il-2/FB/AEP series we're talking about, its a different game. What do you counter the late-'45 Grumman stuff with? You'd have people playing F8F against... What? The Shiden-Kai? There wasn't really anything there to counter the American fighters in a real way (which is good, in real life!). Imagine how much it would suck to be tooling around online in a Shiden-Kai or A6M5 and get bushwacked by a fast twin-engine plane with four cannons that practically climbs like an F-86.

Add to that the whole "never saw combat" thing, and when you've got less than one year to develop the game from concept to boxed product, then you can see why the focus would be on planes that were the meat of the opposing air forces, for most of the conflict. Absurd fantasies about anti-American bias notwithstanding, of course.

What I'm saying is, the reasons planes are there or not there initially, or even later, are not light reasons. No one factor determines these kinds of things. It's lovely to paint things in black and white (BIAS! ANTI-AMERICAN/LUFTWAFFLE SCUM!!!) but that's not the real world.

"Yellonet, I share your opinion, if you want to fly better aircraft, you just have to buy another Sim"

In keeping with my policy of Strategic Ambiguity, how do you know that? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Yellonet
07-10-2004, 10:41 AM
Well... maybe I'm being a little hard on people who want's to fly the "late planes", everyone should be able to enjoy the sim..

But I get so annoyed when people nags about adding the planes that wasn't major contributors to the war effort before we even have the one's that was. Worry about the "common" planes first and add the "beasts" later.


- Yellonet

heywooood
07-10-2004, 10:50 AM
I think this is the 1c progression... if we use FB as a reference.

Start with chronologically correct airframes (at least, those that have enough reference material for modeling) and then add later, in subsequent patches and cd's the 'what if' planes.



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

Penguin_PFF
07-10-2004, 11:28 AM
Yes. Let's say I have a choice between planes in a series that are similar but require changes between each plane in the series. Say, Bf 109's E, F, G, and K. On a limited schedule, the F and G get made because they were the most important, and then the E and K come later. Which, if I recall correctly, is what happened.

So you would see an F6F before an F8F, and an N1K1-J would be more important than an N1K2-J (sounds crazy, but it's true), and a Seafire Mark... Uh... Well I don't know about Seafire marks, but let's say a Seafire Mk.V would come before a Seafire Mk.XXI. Now nobody is saying the later stuff is "NEVER!!!!" but it won't be priority for the initial release. Why build a Ferrari for late 2005 when people want their Honda Civic in 3rd quarter 2004?

It's really simple. And pro-Soviet bias has absolutely nothing to do with PF development, since they are two different games. All I can say is, thank god there are no German or Russian planes in the Pacific to speak of... Most of the quibbles so far have been small. I'm sure that'll change when the game comes out though. At which point, I'm going to stop posting here entirely. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

FRAGAL
07-10-2004, 12:17 PM
quote "Seafire Mark... Uh... Well I don't know about Seafire marks"

The last seafire was the mark 47, it was equipped with the griffon engine and was with the fleet air arm until the end of the korean war, least to say i'm a fantastic fan of the seafire but i know this mark will not appear in pf and i wouldn't expect it to be, but needless to say i'll be happy with whatever planes are released and no doubt i'll find my favourite be it marked as an "uber plane" or not, i've seen the p38 referred to as an uber plane but i know in the hands of the inexperienced it's fodder but in the hands of a more experienced player it can be uber, it all boils down to the pilot and thats it it's not the plane

Flying_Merkava
07-10-2004, 01:56 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1241.gif

Weather_Man
07-10-2004, 02:38 PM
What's the point of posting, "You shouldn't have it because I don't like it?" Surely, people have different tastes and ideas of fun. Let's just let people fly what they wish.

http://banners.wunderground.com/banner/smalltemptr/language/www/US/TX/Dallas.gif

Penguin_PFF
07-10-2004, 03:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flying_Merkava:
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1241.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You better go post that in six or seven other threads on this page alone, to be consistent and all.

"What's the point of posting, "You shouldn't have it because I don't like it?" Surely, people have different tastes and ideas of fun. Let's just let people fly what they wish."

But there are people who create a big storm when they can't get what they want, at least not right away. Then they go accusing people involved in the game's development of bias, stupidity, ignoring "the community" etc. etc. (This is funny, since sometimes people really need to be ignored, for everyone's sake) And to make it really stupid, they cite planes created by third-party developers as a labor of love as some sort of pseudo-evidence for the DEVELOPER's biases.

Yellonet has a point in bringing up the issue of what planes "were" and "were not" in the PTO. It's a gray area that gets quite a few fans, as well as trolls and whiners, really riled up, which directly results in more arguments and/or idiotic posts on all forums, not just this one.

I'm trying to clarify that it's up to the developer to decide on what should and should not legitimately be built for the game, given the time limits for development, and that the factors in this run a lot deeper than people think.

I can tell you that PF is aiming to represent the "meat" of the war in the initial release because of the short development time. Fancy stuff may or may not be added later, depending on Luthier's mood and whether or not he feels like smiting the infidels at the time he's asked the critical question. There certainly will be patches & expansions, hopefully, as per the other Il-2 based games. That he has said himself.

So really, nobody has any reason to get upset, unless they're anti-social. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

lbhskier37
07-10-2004, 03:55 PM
I am hoping that some good people will be putting up dedicated servers with a good variety once PF comes out. Right now Warclouds is one of the few servers worth joining, but its all latewar planes. Those latewar planes are fun for a while, but I really like flying 109Fs against early Laggs and Yaks or Hurris. Actually I think the most interesting servers are 1943 servers which seem to never show up.

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/pics/Killasig6.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&whereauthorid=lbhkilla&comefrom=display&ts=1049772896)
Official "uber190n00b"

"Big cannons are only for skilless pilots who can't shoot shraight enough to hit a target with a smaller caliber round."-310thcopperhead

VW-IceFire
07-10-2004, 04:02 PM
...1943 is a good year. CPS Squadron runs a dedicated server that runs through the years and sometimes we've got I-16's and P-40's duking it out with Bf 109F-4's and A6M's. Its not a historic matchup but the year match is very interesting.

I hope to see some variety when the game comes out. I'd like to see mini-dogfight versions of Midway era planes as well as the 1944 crowd and the earlier 1942 stuff. Lots of variety possible.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

WUAF_Badsight
07-10-2004, 04:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yellonet:
Well... maybe I'm being a little hard on people who want's to fly the "late planes", everyone should be able to enjoy the sim..

- Yellonet<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no no , its good to see the dumbkopfts air their limited viewpoints

this is game is going to replicate the PTO .... & in your limited imagination you cant see how people might want to replicate the pacific war carrying on into later 45 / 46

we ll ok but some do

& you would enjoy the performance of late war planes as much as anyone else

all this crying about more used planes being excluded is a laugh

where has anyone asked for this

if it aint in the inital release who cares

its the attitude that it should never be in te game thats so stupid

how in any way shape or form could it possibly make the game any less real adding 1945 / 46 planes in ?

would they affect the pilot careers in 40 , 41 , 42 , 42 , 43 or 44 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?

you cant get realism at all in DF servers so why bring them up

coops , you dont need to join late 45 coops or make any of your own

so why the pea brained limited attitude behind saying they should never be included at some point

do you also take lollies away from kids cause it better for them if they dont eat it ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

its a computer game

if its going to be limited to realism , then external view options should never be allowed or be a option

& your game should auto-delete after your first PK

but those opinions are just as rediculous as saying that the Shinden or Bearcat should never be allowed in either

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WUAF_Badsight
07-10-2004, 04:52 PM
i fly more Emil & B239 & Sturmovik sorties than anything else

Bearcat inclusion whineys should STFU

http://img7.photobucket.com/albums/v18/Badsight/Bearcat_goodv2.jpg

so : P http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Yellonet
07-10-2004, 05:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Worry about the "common" planes first and add the "beasts" later.


- Yellonet <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apparently you have something personal against me because you don't even bother to read my posts, you just assume that I've written something that is completely opposite to what you think, and therefore idiotic. And because I do not share your point of view on certain aspects of this game I'm a peaheaded jerk, right?


- Yellonet

WUAF_Badsight
07-10-2004, 05:50 PM
someones got to give the "unhistoric , unrealistic" posters a reality check

like the Mustang fans who dont like the Hayate that run away at the mouth with Pony dribble

like i said if its realisim ppl want the external views shouldnt be a option

rediculous

no one has EVER asked that the Bearcat be included in the initial release regardless

but its real narrow minded to say that it shouldnt ever be included

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Penguin_PFF
07-10-2004, 06:50 PM
No, of course not. But it is a bit strange to watch people obsess over the super-planes being included, at the same time they are complaining that the "regular" planes aren't good enough, or won't be good enough. That suggests a reason for the complaints... Something to do with flying skill, perhaps? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

(And I will be the first to admit that I suck. I spend a million times as much time modeling as I do playing the game. I actually haven't played more than ten minutes this year, and that was to check how another plane looked in the game!)

Give me the choice between modeling a J2M3 or an F7F for the game, and I'll take the J2M3 first. But that doesn't mean that I don't ever want to do the F7F...