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View Full Version : me262 Engine Damage Model Poll



LeadSpitter_
12-26-2003, 04:32 PM

LeadSpitter_
12-26-2003, 04:32 PM

Fennec_P
12-26-2003, 05:19 PM
5. When the engine is shut off, the fire should go out.

kyrule2
12-26-2003, 05:25 PM
3, 4, & 5.

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adlabs6
12-26-2003, 05:36 PM
I don't know how the plane should handle, historically. I have had only a little experience with the 262 in V1.21 and from that short time, I can only guess that there is trouble.

A short while back, I was flying in a co-op run by a group of squad members. The mission was a group of P-51's taking on a group of 262's. The host made all non squaddies fly in the jets, and they took the P-51's.

Well, things were OK at first, but I had a hard time accelerating to over 450kmh at close to 8000meters altitude without overheating the engnies. Not knowing how they reacted to over heat in the new patch, I played it safe.

Finally we met our enemies, in P-51's. They were just specks above us, so they might have just come in from orbit. Anyway, with my speed so very low, I had a hard time doing anything, I couldn't extend or climb well enough to save myself from the P-51's that were easily doing double my speed in a dive from above.

Within seconds, my engine was hit. It was likely an AI P-51, since the plane just keep spraying away. A fire was started seconds after the hit, and I extingushed the flames by cutting the throttle on the engine. That's when I found trouble. No matter the thrust from that point on, I could not accelerate to more than 350kmh, and the plane lost altitude at a constant rate.

I flew away from the battle, and no one noticed me as I slipped away. The hit engine lit on fire a couple more times, but I always got it out. By this time, I was maybe 30km from an airstrip, still falling like a rock. There was no way I could make the base, so I bailed before it was too late. But the hit engine blew apart as I was leaving, and down the wreckage went.

I don't think any of the P-51's were hit, and most of the 262's were destroyed. I felt bugged that the 262 couldn't maintain altitude with one engine, even while maintainting 350kmh airspeed.

So, I can't say if that's historical or not. But I would have figured that on one engine, I could have done a little better.

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Juego
12-26-2003, 05:50 PM
2,3,4 but what happen to that (i think) bug that the engine fire was out but only smoke came out of the engine but all of the sudden the fire came back.

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WUAF_Badsight
12-26-2003, 07:19 PM
4 & 5

p1ngu666
12-26-2003, 07:27 PM
make the engines not reflame so much

jeroen_R90S
12-27-2003, 09:01 AM
I've found the v1.21 A-2 model to be quite capable of flying on one engine (1 engine off, the other @ 85%, speed ~450kp/h), it can even climb slightly as it could in real life. (according to the pilot's handbook) Haven't tried the A-1 yet, don't fly that one often.

Short translation from this book in my best German-English (both not my native languages):

Single engined flight.

1. Move the throttle of the damaged engine back to "Stopp" and close the fuel lever.
2.Trim the aircraft with rudder trim. Letting the aircraft slightly hang down on the still operating engine decreases rudder movement and increases operational range.

Single engined landing.

1. Set rudder trim at "0".
2. speed should be at least 260kph. The plane will sink at 1-2m/sec at max weight and lowered gear.
3.lower gear only then, if the airfield can be reached without applying additional power. Lower flaps.

As far as engine restarts go, I think they are not possible because of the procedures involved. In rl., a seperate starter engine was used on the ground. The air start procedure is as follows:

Restart during flight.
It is only possible to restart below 4000m, do not use Riedel-starter! The stopped engine is still freely running.

1.Cut speed to ~300-350 kp/h.
2.Open fuel lever.
3.Swich on ignition, as temperature rises move throttle very slowly to stationary position.

I think the game doesn't model 2 different engine starts for the jet: with or without Riedel starter. Which makes me wonder, it does work for prop planes.

BTW, the 262 had 3 types of fuel, one for the Riedel starter, the other for starting up and finally the normal running fuel. The stationary startup is much more complex... we're still some miles away from the ultimate sim http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As far as the returning engine fires go: please fix! An extuingished engine of which the fuel is cut off should NOT re-ignite again.

Jeroen

pinche_bolillo
12-27-2003, 09:07 AM
hum, I have noticed that it is pretty easy to get a 262's engines to burn even with a few random hits. planes that have a lot of mgs are really effective because of the total volume of fire they can spray.

one interesting fact I have read about was in one of eric brown's books. he flew the 262 and said that the single engine safety speed was 180mph/288kph. that is pretty high. if you dont understand what single engine safety speed is, it means that if you flew lower than that speed the airplane became uncontrolable because the thrust of the good engine would cause the plane to yaw until it would pull it over into a spin.

Willey
12-27-2003, 09:19 AM
FB is wrong here. Most probably because of a linguistic misunderstanding.

It's well known that if the throttle is opened or closed too fast when having less than 6000rpm the engines will "burn out" or "flame out". It both means the same. It's from the German term ausbrennen. That just means, the engine will shut down. It's similar to stalling a car's engine. But many authors thought it would actually burn because of "burn / flame" out. But it's wrong. Above 6000rpm a regulating mechanism controlled the RPM in safe changing speeds. Also Galland noticed this on his first flight. He pushed the throttle too fast, and he had to abort the take off because the engines shut down. On the next try it went fine. Then he picked up speed and did a zoom climb where he said his well-known words "It's as if angels were pushing".

Also the midair-restarting procedure is missing.

Third point is throttle speed. Of course, below 6000rpm it's manual controlled, but IIRC it took almost 2 minutes (!!!) to rev them up to full rpm. We had such a slow rev up (not that slow) in one FB version... now it's unrealistically quick.

LeadSpitter_
12-27-2003, 09:20 AM
yeah the engine catches fire from not that many hits but so many times while flying the 262 i get both my engines shot both burning do a tiny little dive they both go out and immediatly outrun my opponents with full power and fly around for an additional 10-15 min black smoke pouring off the engine and still remaining the same speeds as before. takes about 10 min for them to catch fire again but you just do a short dive and they are out.

I was just curious if people noticed this as well that theres no speed loss after engine fires

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Platypus_1.JaVA
12-27-2003, 01:07 PM
I think the 262's engines where pretty fragile in real-life because Germany didn't have the right metal alloy for making them.

As with engines igniting again, this should be fixed as well the single-engine flight. Right now, it is almost impossible to fly the aircraft, let alone land it, with one engine.

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2 For with what judgment ye judge,
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GoodKn1ght
12-27-2003, 01:51 PM
i could careless- most servers dont let you fly this plane anyway./

Merlini.a.f.
12-27-2003, 05:04 PM
sorry guys but personally i think the jumbo(me262 engine) is way tu sturdy.....i mean what would happen if you would break off a turbine blade, off a turbine that is spinning at ~7000 rpm??? it would literaly fly appart.
i mean the cockpit of the p38 had specail armoring for the pilot in chase the turbochargers of it`s 2 allison engines where hit. it`s too though even an m16(5.56mm) bullet through the front or the end of the engine would be enough to set the turbine of the engine off balance....and the engine would practically "destroy itself", not to mention the engines weren`t armored at all......sorry if i spoyeled you day but that`s the way is is and that`s the way it was with jet-engines. the must be balanced almost perfectly.or.....you don`t wanna know. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Merlini.a.f.
12-27-2003, 05:10 PM
ever wonder why jets explode when birds enter their engines??? it`s all a qouestion of balane. dent a blade and BOOM so much for the engine.....and jet-engines can`t work at 80% or 60%......they either work 100% or don`t.
and in full-real. when the engine overheats the power just drops, instead of just exploding, i mean the blades melt at those temperatures....no balance no engine.....that`s the name of the game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Merlini.a.f.
12-27-2003, 05:19 PM
forgot something.....
then you have the ballbarings, the high pressure fuel lines(much higher pressure then in piston engines) and then......you have the combustion chambers......8 in the me262 if i remember right......anyway....hit that and you have gasses well over 1000 C degrees inside the engine, it`s basically a torch, that burns through everything. plus it ignites the fuel in the wings np. i mean basically you have a small rochet burning inside your wing.....a jet-engine was very sensitive about 95% of it was sensitive enough to be blown up or shut down by a single .303 bullet.....again.....that`s why it`s an important lesson not to dogfight hawker hurricanes with the me262 (if you get my point http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

hobnail
12-27-2003, 05:26 PM
Dear god..

Yet another hysterical accuracy thread.

Habeus corpus Spit, yawn.

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Platypus_1.JaVA
12-28-2003, 04:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Merlini.a.f.:
forgot something.....
then you have the ballbarings, the high pressure fuel lines(much higher pressure then in piston engines) and then......you have the combustion chambers......8 in the me262 if i remember right......anyway....hit that and you have gasses well over 1000 C degrees inside the engine, it`s basically a torch, that burns through everything. plus it ignites the fuel in the wings np. i mean basically you have a small rochet burning inside your wing.....a jet-engine was very sensitive about 95% of it was sensitive enough to be blown up or shut down by a single .303 bullet.....again.....that`s why it`s an important lesson not to dogfight hawker hurricanes with the me262 (if you get my point http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Altough I dunno about the Me-262 engines but, nowadays jet's are tested by shooting dead/frozen chickens trough them. Jet engines are designed to NOT ignite at the slightest shock. The engine is not looking pretty afterwards and you should land immediatly but, it won't set on fire easily.

ANyways, for my job, I must stay with a ground test-run from a Boeing 737 sometimes and the very first time, I was standing in front of the plane, to watch both engines spooling up and looking for anything suspicous. There was a new engine installed and they fired it up. The moment the turbine gained some RPM, there was a big flame coming out of the back of the engine, rolling over the wing and about to be sucked into the front again.

I panicked a bit (the engine was on fire!!) and warned the seasoned mechanic who was standing beside me. He then told me that it was normal for a first-run of a fresh installed engine. after overhaul of the engine, there are several kinds of lubricants still present everywhere in the engine and with start-up, that is the stuff that is burning.

I know it gave me an hart-attack but, it shows that jet-engines aren't that fragile.

Of course the Me-262 engine isn't a CFM-56.

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Willey
12-28-2003, 06:07 AM
Of course the jet engines are very vulnerable to hits, so they are in the game. Those early ones might burn easier than the modern ones.

But the problem is that they also start burning by slamming the throttle forward where they shouldn't burn but just shut down.

p1ngu666
12-28-2003, 09:29 AM
some jets are tough tho http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
i remmber hearing of some guy who got a damaged jet. so he took out the damaged blades and the opposite one to ballence
worked ok actully http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Platypus_1.JaVA
12-28-2003, 10:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
some jets are tough tho http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
i remmber hearing of some guy who got a damaged jet. so he took out the damaged blades and the opposite one to ballence
worked ok actully http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The standard practise for battle-damage repair on the rotor of a Helicopter... If one of the blades has been damaged or, shot off. Saw the other blade(s) to the exact same length and you can fly again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

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