PDA

View Full Version : Lost Archive inconsistencies SPOILERS



TheHumanTowel
04-09-2012, 06:14 PM
So Lucy is apparantly a Templar and the Templar's real objective with Desmond all along was to find Ezio's apple. I've been playing through AC1 again and I really can't see how this makes sense. If Vidic wanted to find Ezio's apple why did they have Desmond relive Altair's memories? Desmond was supposedly allowed to escape from Abstergo so he'd feel more comfortable and progress through memories quicker. But the Assassins launched a failed rescue attempt 2 days before his actual escape, why not let him escape then?
Also they're about to kill Desmond at the end of AC1 before Lucy stalls them. I find it hard to believe that was all for show seeing as Alan Rikkin, CEO of Abstergo, was the one who ordered Desmond killed.
I think there is two possibilities here. 1. The Lost Archive is inaccurate (maybe because Sixteen's crazy and misremembered things). or 2. All this is true in which case Ubisoft have a hell of a lot of explaining to do in AC3.
If a satisfactory explanation isn't given this series has jumped the shark story-wise as far as i'm concerned.
What do you guys think? Any good explanations?

reini03
04-09-2012, 06:20 PM
But the Assassins launched a failed rescue attempt 2 days before his actual escape, why not let him escape then??

Probably because the Templars want to get rid of any and all Assassins. You could hear them being shot during the rescue attempt.

infamous_ezio
04-09-2012, 06:25 PM
i actually think they decided to make lucy a templar when making ACB, it just seems so dodgy. they used altair to get the map of the POE and altair also had 1. I also have a feeling that it wasn't possible to jump into ezio's memories straight away, like they had to ease desmond into it. what's this about the failed rescue attempt?

gp2razor
04-09-2012, 06:27 PM
i actually think they decided to make lucy a templar when making ACB, it just seems so dodgy. they used altair to get the map of the POE and altair also had 1. I also have a feeling that it wasn't possible to jump into ezio's memories straight away, like they had to ease desmond into it. what's this about the failed rescue attempt?

Yeah, Abstergo tried to just get the map of the POE but Desmond had to relive Altair's memories as it didn't work properly when he was placed in the Animus, as seen in AC :D

LightRey
04-09-2012, 06:33 PM
Vidic wanted to revisit Alta´r's memories first because of the map. His pursuit of Ezio's apple was more of a personal interest, while finding the memory of the map in ACI was something he was not only ordered to to, but he was even given a deadline (one week).

The rescue attempt of the Assassins may not even have been real, but assuming it was it's just not at a point in time where Vidic was under the impression that Desmond wasn't progressing so slowly that he should be removed. Not to mention that such an "escape" likely required a lot of planning and Vidic would likely have preferred Lucy being in control of the entire thing, which she was in ACII, but would not have been if he was rescued by a team of Assassins barging in. They might not even have taken her along with Desmond. He probably also saw it as a great opportunity to take out some more Assassins.

I think it's simple. It was one of those things Vidic told Lucy to do to earn Desmond's trust. As you can see by the emails, Vidic is actually quite close to Alan. In hindsight I think it's unlikely he actually thought about the situation in the way he expressed in AC1.

Don't think Ubi hasn't thought this through. They've shown to be quite capable in working out plotlines without retcons (even though some people would disagree, though I have yet to see a convincing example of a true, proved retcon in the games).

TheHumanTowel
04-09-2012, 06:36 PM
i actually think they decided to make lucy a templar when making ACB, it just seems so dodgy. they used altair to get the map of the POE and altair also had 1. I also have a feeling that it wasn't possible to jump into ezio's memories straight away, like they had to ease desmond into it. what's this about the failed rescue attempt?
In AC1 after during one of the Desmond sections Vidic is talking with some guard over the radio and you can hear gunfire in the background. He says the Assassin's are trying to rescue Desmond. The guard comes back on the radio and says the Assassin's are dead. This is the most confusing part, it makes no sense in light of the Lost Archive at all.

infamous_ezio
04-09-2012, 06:39 PM
In AC1 after during one of the Desmond sections Vidic is talking with some guard over the radio and you can hear gunfire in the background. He says the Assassin's are trying to rescue Desmond. The guard comes back on the radio and says the Assassin's are dead. This is the most confusing part, it makes no sense in light of the Lost Archive at all.

ohh yeah i remember now. How is it related to the lost archive tho?

TheHumanTowel
04-09-2012, 06:45 PM
Vidic wanted to revisit Alta´r's memories first because of the map. His pursuit of Ezio's apple was more of a personal interest, while finding the memory of the map in ACI was something he was not only ordered to to, but he was even given a deadline (one week).
That's a good point. I hope they explain this better in AC3. My confusion is probably more because of poor writing and exposition in the Lost Archive than bad plotting on the whole.

TheHumanTowel
04-09-2012, 06:47 PM
ohh yeah i remember now. How is it related to the lost archive tho?
Because the Lost Archive reveals Desmond's escape was planned by Vidic and Lucy. It seemed strange they would stop one escape attempt only to let him go 2 days later. Lightrey's got a good explanation above.

Poodle_of_Doom
04-09-2012, 07:06 PM
So Lucy is apparantly a Templar and the Templar's real objective with Desmond all along was to find Ezio's apple. I've been playing through AC1 again and I really can't see how this makes sense. If Vidic wanted to find Ezio's apple why did they have Desmond relive Altair's memories? Desmond was supposedly allowed to escape from Abstergo so he'd feel more comfortable and progress through memories quicker. But the Assassins launched a failed rescue attempt 2 days before his actual escape, why not let him escape then?
Also they're about to kill Desmond at the end of AC1 before Lucy stalls them. I find it hard to believe that was all for show seeing as Alan Rikkin, CEO of Abstergo, was the one who ordered Desmond killed.
I think there is two possibilities here. 1. The Lost Archive is inaccurate (maybe because Sixteen's crazy and misremembered things). or 2. All this is true in which case Ubisoft have a hell of a lot of explaining to do in AC3.
If a satisfactory explanation isn't given this series has jumped the shark story-wise as far as i'm concerned.
What do you guys think? Any good explanations?

My take is this:

By living Altair's memories, they will help Desmond become more acustom to living other memories, like Ezio's, and will help him find other useful information faster. Second of all, at the end of Altair's memories, there were several POE's shown on a map, which is of great help to the Templars, and their goals. God knows when they might need another apple. My suspicion is that the temples were revealed on this map as well.

Second of all, by forcing him to stay, you make him feel all that much more comfortable when he does escape, especially when he doesn't feel comfortable with either side at that precise moment. In fact, it may of all been for show, considering his choices are to be killed by the Templars who are pretend hunting him (since they already know where he is), or flee into the arms of the Assassin's who are willing to protect him. And thus, he unknowingly provides all sorts of information.

Personally, I think your thought patterns are a bit skewed. Some critical thinking would do you good.


In AC1 after during one of the Desmond sections Vidic is talking with some guard over the radio and you can hear gunfire in the background. He says the Assassin's are trying to rescue Desmond. The guard comes back on the radio and says the Assassin's are dead. This is the most confusing part, it makes no sense in light of the Lost Archive at all.

You should really have read what LightRey said. It's important to note that the attempt to rescue Desmond may have been put on by the Templars themselves, as Rey pointed out.

DiamondBlade_R
04-09-2012, 07:10 PM
My thread about this.

(http://www.facebook.com/)My input about this subject, from the thread above:

...I just finished watching Darksydephil (http://www.youtube.com/user/DSPGaming)'s playthrough of The LostArchive DLC, where it is revealed that Lucy was indeed a Templar, or, to be exact, an ex-Assassin who during her mission to infiltrate Abstergo switched sides and decided to work with Abstergo.Now, all I have to say is, WTF?!

Now, I'm not talking a "major plot twist-ish", positive "WTF" here, but rather something along the lines of, "REALLY, UBISOFT? THAT'S THE BEST YOU CAN COME WITH?"

Now, let me try and explain my view of this: I'm not that I'm all that upset just about the idea of Lucy being a Templar, but rather, I'm upset with Ubisoft because I have full confidence in the belief that the idea of Lucy's defection to the Templars was simply made up by Corey May (to whom I still have the utmost respect) and his crew on the go. I do NOT believe they intended for Lucy to be an Assassin-turned-Templar from the start, or even during the ACII days. Think about it. All throughout the first two games, her character was depicted as being more dedicated to the cause of the Assassins than anyone else. And no, it was not just her "being a good actress"; throughout the first to games, they were never any clues, EVER, as to indicate that she despises William as much as she supposedly did, or even any indication of her being "tired of fighting on the Assassin side" or anything like that. That was just made up by the writers during the writing process of Brotherhood (I assume it was not later than that, because it seems unlikely to me that they'd decide to kill her off before settling on an actual reason to do so - thus was born the idea of her being a Templar).

The one thing that has truly made me believe that this whole concept of Lucy being a Templar was made up on the go, is the fact that supposedly, the entire ruse of her "earning Desmond's trust my pretending to be an Assassin spy in Templar territory" was initiated by Vidic as a method to get Desmond to better cooperate with Abstergo, in case he didn't cooperate with them during his time in their Animus 1.0. Wait, what? Aside from some muttering about wanting to go home, and a little talking back to Vidic here and there, when and how exactly was Desmond "uncooperative" during his time at Abstergo? They had him under control. They had managed to have him submit to them and not try to resist them. They even succeeded in using him to discover the location of the first Apple, which was what they kidnapped him for in the first place. That being said, there was no need for them to initiate any elaborate plan to make Desmond any more cooperative than he already was - which is why I think, again, that the entire idea was made up on the go.

Another argument supporting this fact is that during the cutscene on the DLC which reveals the fact that Lucy was in league with the Templars, Vidic says to her that "when she meets the Assassins, she can ask them why there left her so long ago." Fact of the matter is, we have no evidence to show that the Assassins ever "left Lucy" - on the contrary, it'd be safe to assume that just as they were communicating with her during the first game, they had been keeping in touch with her for a long time before that - presumably 7 years prior to the events of AC1, when she first started her long-time mission of infiltrating Abstergo Industries and spying for the Assassins.

Also, if the entire event of her bringing Desmond to the Assassins' hideout in the beginning of ACII was just orchestrated by Abstergo to get Desmond to an environment where he felt safe and would cooperate, why did Lucy steal the Memory Core? That was not essential to whatever it is the Templars want to do with Desmond. That was just her bringing the Assassins a device that could provide them with an advantage, as slight as it may be, over the Templars.

Lastly, if the writers supposedly planned for Lucy to be revealed as a Templar from day 1, why would they have her train Desmond to control the Bleeding Effect and use it for his own gain? Why would she fully train her enemy to be skilled with a tool that could be used against her as a weapon later on?

LightRey
04-09-2012, 07:17 PM
That's a good point. I hope they explain this better in AC3. My confusion is probably more because of poor writing and exposition in the Lost Archive than bad plotting on the whole.
Well seeing as TLA does not seem to have been viewed by Desmond, we can assume that he doesn't know about Lucy's betrayal yet and it's therefore quite likely that he will at some point find out about it. I can imagine stuff like that will be dealt with in the ACIII plot and seeing as ACR wasn't originally planned to be the game it is, I can imagine that's the reason Desmond did not witness TLA himself in the first place.

Steww-
04-09-2012, 08:04 PM
There's 2 reasons I can see for the lack of information Desmond gets about Lucy in revelations from both S16 (who teases him about Lucy's funeral) and from TLA (because he doesn't actually play it). That last part is a bit of an assumption, but based on the fact it's launched from the main menu, I hope it's a fairly solid one.

Firstly, they didn't plan this game. The reveals were planned for AC3, and since Revelations was an unplanned(ish) addition, nothing was shown in it to protect the story.

However, a second possible reason involves giving Ubi a bit more credit. I remember somewhere - I've forgotten where xD - one of Desmond's ancestors says that the apple seems to need loss for it to work to its full potential. Look at the grief that overcomes Desmond in the cutscene when S16 mentions Lucy's funeral. If he knew Lucy was a templar, would he still feel guilty? Maybe he'll need this feeling of loss in AC3.

Plus, I think there's another twist with Lucy yet. In revelations there's an interesting conversation outside the animus, and here's part of it:

William: Were they close, Desmond and Lucy? I mean... closer than friends?
-----
Shaun: She liked him, Bill. That's what she told me.
William: Hmm. Interesting.
-----

Apart from the fact Bill's comment is strange enough, if you listen to the way he says "interesting" I think it implies even more. It takes someone intelligent to be the (de facto) leader of the assassins, and I suspect he knows a lot more about the Lucy situation than the others. Why does she criticise Bill so highly near the end of TLA, and then send him such emotional and personal e-mails about her troubles? She must value his advice highly, since it's not an action that would bring her any benefits in infiltrating the order. I think that in the time between the letter to S16 that we find in TLA and her death, there's a change in Lucy. One that I hope we find out in AC3 xD.

Poodle_of_Doom
04-09-2012, 08:08 PM
@DiamondBlade_R:

I do recall that post from another thread. And I'll respond the same way here. There was evidence that the Assassins had cut contact with Lucy. There was a letter/email that was found that shows that she had infiltrated the Templars, and that contact would cease for a time. So, she was left in the cold by them.

At that, something I just realized now, is that we have to consider the story she fed Desmond in the middle of ACI, where she tells him about all the stuff going on in her life, and waiting tables, to working for Abstergo, and Vidic saving her. Considering this, and what we know from TLA, we now know that this was a ruse, and hints at a more elaborate plan. And mind you, it may not of been something that developed either. The way things have worked out could of been the plan all along, wether he resisted or not. If he resisted in the beginning, this would solve the problem. If not, it would only serve to make him a more willing participant, in an otherwise evil plan to take over the world.

TheHumanTowel
04-09-2012, 08:15 PM
Personally, I think your thought patterns are a bit skewed. Some critical thinking would do you good.
Bit harsh :) I'm just a little frustrated that a series that has been so well plotted up to this point has taken a turn that requires me to pull explanations out of thin air to make it work. I'm sure they'll deliver the goods in 3 though.

Poodle_of_Doom
04-09-2012, 08:19 PM
They weren't pulled out of thin air. They were derived from fact. Apply simple logic, and you may come to know the true meaning of it all.

Join us.

Resistance if feutile.

TheHumanTowel
04-09-2012, 08:23 PM
My thread about this.

(http://www.facebook.com/)My input about this subject, from the thread above:
Yeah I'm afraid as well that this wasn't planned from the start. This is the first time I've really questioned a decision the writers have made.

DiamondBlade_R
04-09-2012, 08:36 PM
@DiamondBlade_R:

I do recall that post from another thread. And I'll respond the same way here. There was evidence that the Assassins had cut contact with Lucy. There was a letter/email that was found that shows that she had infiltrated the Templars, and that contact would cease for a time. So, she was left in the cold by them.

At that, something I just realized now, is that we have to consider the story she fed Desmond in the middle of ACI, where she tells him about all the stuff going on in her life, and waiting tables, to working for Abstergo, and Vidic saving her. Considering this, and what we know from TLA, we now know that this was a ruse, and hints at a more elaborate plan. And mind you, it may not of been something that developed either. The way things have worked out could of been the plan all along, wether he resisted or not. If he resisted in the beginning, this would solve the problem. If not, it would only serve to make him a more willing participant, in an otherwise evil plan to take over the world.

If the Assassins cut contact with Lucy "for a time", as part of their original plan for her to infiltrate Abstergo, than that doesn't count as "leaving her in the cold" - it just means that they acted according to their plan. What Vidic implies is that the Assassins abandoned her, or turned their back on her during a mission, or something along those lines. That's a whole different scenario that what you describe.

Poodle_of_Doom
04-09-2012, 09:53 PM
If the Assassins cut contact with Lucy "for a time", as part of their original plan for her to infiltrate Abstergo, than that doesn't count as "leaving her in the cold" - it just means that they acted according to their plan. What Vidic implies is that the Assassins abandoned her, or turned their back on her during a mission, or something along those lines. That's a whole different scenario that what you describe.

The specific portion I referenced, I got the very distinct impression that that was exactly what happened. They did in fact abandon her.

DiamondBlade_R
04-09-2012, 10:14 PM
The specific portion I referenced, I got the very distinct impression that that was exactly what happened. They did in fact abandon her. How is acting according to their plan, of which she was undoubtedly aware. "abandoning her?"

JCearlyyears
04-09-2012, 10:20 PM
If the memory " the truth" is 16's, wouldn't that mean that he was alive when Desmond was captured?

LightRey
04-09-2012, 10:26 PM
If the memory " the truth" is 16's, wouldn't that mean that he was alive when Desmond was captured?
It is his and how do you figure that?

JCearlyyears
04-09-2012, 10:48 PM
Because it shows Desmond.

Gil_217
04-09-2012, 10:51 PM
...for God's sake.

JCearlyyears
04-09-2012, 10:53 PM
That isn't my only reason, but my other answer was longer and wouldn't make sense to anyone reading it because sometimes I'm terrible at explaining things.

LightRey
04-09-2012, 10:55 PM
Because it shows Desmond.
​No.

Gil_217
04-09-2012, 10:55 PM
They only showed Desmond because Vidic mentioned his name, nothing more than that, it didn't have other purpose.

Edit: They actually showed a pic of Desmond in TLA LightRey, but only because Vidic mentioned his name, nothing more than that.

JCearlyyears
04-09-2012, 10:59 PM
Oh, and my other reason is actually invalid because I misheard what Vidic said.
And what do you mean "no"? I saw Desmond in the hoodie he wore in brotherhood. Mind you I am almost completely stupid right now because I didn't sleep well and may as well be a baby attempting calculus. Best I keep quiet.

Gil_217
04-09-2012, 11:02 PM
Oh, and my other reason is actually invalid because I misheard what Vidic said.
And what do you mean "no"? I saw Desmond in the hoodie he wore in brotherhood. Mind you I am almost completely stupid right now because I didn't sleep well and may as well be a baby attempting calculus.

Yeah, they showed Desmond's pic but only because Vidic mentioned Desmond in a conversation with Lucy, and remember that this conversation occurred before Desmond was kidnapped.

Basically, it was only shown to make that cutscene look dramatic.

LightRey
04-09-2012, 11:04 PM
They only showed Desmond because Vidic mentioned his name, nothing more than that, it didn't have other purpose.

Edit: They actually showed a pic of Desmond in TLA LightRey, but only because Vidic mentioned his name, nothing more than that.
I thought we were talking about "The Truth" and I don't see the logic behind this reasoning. If the memory in "the truth" is 16's then it could have been recorded during any period of his time as an Animus subject and seeing as he was obviously dead before Desmond became an Animus subject, he, well, was obviously dead.

JCearlyyears
04-09-2012, 11:44 PM
Um... sorry I don't understand anything you are saying now. I'm really tired and shouldn't be here, but I am anyway, so what are you saying? If I'm correct, you don't understand the reasoning to have Desmond's picture there for dramatic effect. I'm certainly sleeping after the next 5 minutes.

LightRey
04-09-2012, 11:50 PM
Um... sorry I don't understand anything you are saying now. I'm really tired and shouldn't be here, but I am anyway, so what are you saying? If I'm correct, you don't understand the reasoning to have Desmond's picture there for dramatic effect. I'm certainly sleeping after the next 5 minutes.
At the very start of AC1, S16's blood was already cleaned up. This was right after he was captured. The picture of Desmond in TLA could have been from a later memory, linked to this one because of the reference to Desmond, or a picture he had been shown. Anyways, what I really don't understand is what The Truth has to do with all this.

JCearlyyears
04-09-2012, 11:53 PM
Lost archive inconsistencies.
Bye

LightRey
04-10-2012, 12:02 AM
Lost archive inconsistencies.
Bye
They're not inconsistencies. -__-

JCearlyyears
04-10-2012, 12:17 AM
They're not inconsistencies. -__-

I wouldn't know that! I'm tired! :P

Poodle_of_Doom
04-10-2012, 12:58 AM
How is acting according to their plan, of which she was undoubtedly aware. "abandoning her?"

Here:


What Vidic implies is that the Assassins abandoned her, or turned their back on her during a mission, or something along those lines. That's a whole different scenario that what you describe.


The specific portion I referenced, I got the very distinct impression that that was exactly what happened. They did in fact abandon her.


Better?

Acrimonious_Nin
04-10-2012, 01:53 AM
There's 2 reasons I can see for the lack of information Desmond gets about Lucy in revelations from both S16 (who teases him about Lucy's funeral) and from TLA (because he doesn't actually play it). That last part is a bit of an assumption, but based on the fact it's launched from the main menu, I hope it's a fairly solid one.

Firstly, they didn't plan this game. The reveals were planned for AC3, and since Revelations was an unplanned(ish) addition, nothing was shown in it to protect the story.

However, a second possible reason involves giving Ubi a bit more credit. I remember somewhere - I've forgotten where xD - one of Desmond's ancestors says that the apple seems to need loss for it to work to its full potential. Look at the grief that overcomes Desmond in the cutscene when S16 mentions Lucy's funeral. If he knew Lucy was a templar, would he still feel guilty? Maybe he'll need this feeling of loss in AC3.

Plus, I think there's another twist with Lucy yet. In revelations there's an interesting conversation outside the animus, and here's part of it:

William: Were they close, Desmond and Lucy? I mean... closer than friends?
-----
Shaun: She liked him, Bill. That's what she told me.
William: Hmm. Interesting.
-----

Apart from the fact Bill's comment is strange enough, if you listen to the way he says "interesting" I think it implies even more. It takes someone intelligent to be the (de facto) leader of the assassins, and I suspect he knows a lot more about the Lucy situation than the others. Why does she criticise Bill so highly near the end of TLA, and then send him such emotional and personal e-mails about her troubles? She must value his advice highly, since it's not an action that would bring her any benefits in infiltrating the order. I think that in the time between the letter to S16 that we find in TLA and her death, there's a change in Lucy. One that I hope we find out in AC3 xD.


actually that is what is being overlooked even though this is kind of off topic, William's tone does sound like hes not shocked of what Shaun reveals to William about Lucy. I mean the plan was for Clay to go in and out, and Lucy could have done so, since he was so confident,and clearly clay not only sends a random letter to his father that IS cryptic, but also doe not return and is found in the tiber river. William obviously smelled something fishy. I mean William has more experience in the ''battlefield'' as an assassin than Desmond and company.

Poodle_of_Doom
04-10-2012, 02:12 AM
actually that is what is being overlooked even though this is kind of off topic, William's tone does sound like hes not shocked of what Shaun reveals to William about Lucy. I mean the plan was for Clay to go in and out, and Lucy could have done so, since he was so confident,and clearly clay not only sends a random letter to his father that IS cryptic, but also doe not return and is found in the tiber river. William obviously smelled something fishy. I mean William has more experience in the ''battlefield'' as an assassin than Desmond and company.

A good point begs a good question. What did his Eagle Sense tell him?

Acrimonious_Nin
04-10-2012, 02:47 AM
A good point begs a good question. What did his Eagle Sense tell him?

ummmm I am assuming that you are talking about Desmond....His eagle 'vision' says she was good...which would be one heck of a WTF TEAM KILL? moment in all their heads leaving juno to be the ''bad one'' >_>...which is most likely not the case. If you are talking about William then I must say, A good point begs a good question. Did William have eagle vision/sense ?

Poodle_of_Doom
04-10-2012, 04:02 AM
ummmm I am assuming that you are talking about Desmond....His eagle 'vision' says she was good...which would be one heck of a WTF TEAM KILL? moment in all their heads leaving juno to be the ''bad one'' >_>...which is most likely not the case. If you are talking about William then I must say, A good point begs a good question. Did William have eagle vision/sense ?

I was actually refering to William. And you do make a good point. Does he have it? Is it something that's gained from the Animus sessions with Ancestors? If he has it, does that mean Lucy fooled everyone? The questions would be endless.

Agentbarto
04-10-2012, 05:28 AM
Here's one thing confusing me. In ACII Lucy admits to Desmond that the Templars' goals may be shortsighted due to TFC's existence and the plot that comes with it. Here's my gig. Unless the Templars have been planning world domination of the modern world to avert this disaster under their preferred terms, her consciousness of that danger calls into question the assertion that she was a double agent working for the Templars. I sincerely doubt she'd allow those facts to go on ignored. Discovering something as important as that would make all other matters meaningless given that we're talking the survival of a species, not just the survival of a select group over another. Also I seriously doubt in the premise that Lucy succumbed to a brainwashing reminiscent of Stockholm Syndrome, sure she had her doubts about the war and maybe she wanted to settle down, but not at the cost of Desmond, for whom she seemed to have genuine feelings.

Poodle_of_Doom
04-10-2012, 06:21 AM
Here's one thing confusing me. In ACII Lucy admits to Desmond that the Templars' goals may be shortsighted due to TFC's existence and the plot that comes with it. Here's my gig. Unless the Templars have been planning world domination of the modern world to avert this disaster under their preferred terms, her consciousness of that danger calls into question the assertion that she was a double agent working for the Templars. I sincerely doubt she'd allow those facts to go on ignored. Discovering something as important as that would make all other matters meaningless given that we're talking the survival of a species, not just the survival of a select group over another. Also I seriously doubt in the premise that Lucy succumbed to a brainwashing reminiscent of Stockholm Syndrome, sure she had her doubts about the war and maybe she wanted to settle down, but not at the cost of Desmond, for whom she seemed to have genuine feelings.


Well, bear in mind that TWCB had the ability to survive, and continue onward. Perhaps with the aid of their technology, we could do the same, and repopulate, but under Templar Rule?

LightRey
04-10-2012, 10:17 AM
Here's one thing confusing me. In ACII Lucy admits to Desmond that the Templars' goals may be shortsighted due to TFC's existence and the plot that comes with it. Here's my gig. Unless the Templars have been planning world domination of the modern world to avert this disaster under their preferred terms, her consciousness of that danger calls into question the assertion that she was a double agent working for the Templars. I sincerely doubt she'd allow those facts to go on ignored. Discovering something as important as that would make all other matters meaningless given that we're talking the survival of a species, not just the survival of a select group over another. Also I seriously doubt in the premise that Lucy succumbed to a brainwashing reminiscent of Stockholm Syndrome, sure she had her doubts about the war and maybe she wanted to settle down, but not at the cost of Desmond, for whom she seemed to have genuine feelings.
The Templars are aware of the solar flare, probably more so than the Assassins. It is highly likely that they have a plan of their own.

TheHumanTowel
04-10-2012, 10:35 AM
The Templars are aware of the solar flare, probably more so than the Assassins. It is highly likely that they have a plan of their own.
Really? I was under the impression the Templar's didn't know about TWCB. Lucy, Rebecca and Shaun all acted like it was the first time they were hearing about it at the end of AC2.

LightRey
04-10-2012, 10:39 AM
Really? I was under the impression the Templar's didn't know about TWCB. Lucy, Rebecca and Shaun all acted like it was the first time they were hearing about it at the end of AC2.
They are. In the MP files they even refer to the original disaster that wiped out TWCB and they go on further to mention that another flare is coming.

Gil_217
04-10-2012, 10:52 AM
At the very start of AC1, S16's blood was already cleaned up. This was right after he was captured. The picture of Desmond in TLA could have been from a later memory, linked to this one because of the reference to Desmond, or a picture he had been shown. Anyways, what I really don't understand is what The Truth has to do with all this.

The Truth that he was talking about is NOT the video from Assassin's Creed II after you complete all the glyphs.

He's talking about the chapter in The Lost Archive that is called The Truth.

Hope I cleared it up for you.

LightRey
04-10-2012, 10:54 AM
The Truth that he was talking about is NOT the video from Assassin's Creed II after you complete all the glyphs.

He's talking about the chapter in The Lost Archive that is called The Truth.

Hope I cleared it up for you.
Oh, ok. S16 was already dead in that chapter. Problem solved.

Gil_217
04-10-2012, 11:06 AM
Oh, ok. S16 was already dead in that chapter. Problem solved.

Actually, he wasn't.

This was the chapter that Clay found, in the end, that Lucy betrayed the Assassins and joined the Templars. He clearly died after this.

The one that he was already dead was the last one, "The End of the Line".

Steww-
04-10-2012, 11:09 AM
I was actually refering to William. And you do make a good point. Does he have it? Is it something that's gained from the Animus sessions with Ancestors? If he has it, does that mean Lucy fooled everyone? The questions would be endless.

Going on the fact he can't wield the Apple properly, I'd guess (and I mean guess) that he hasn't. Lucy does say that Desmond picks Eagle Vision up because of the Animus sessions, but I think he already has the potential for it.

Again though, this is really going into the realms of speculation.



actually that is what is being overlooked even though this is kind of off topic, William's tone does sound like hes not shocked of what Shaun reveals to William about Lucy. I mean the plan was for Clay to go in and out, and Lucy could have done so, since he was so confident,and clearly clay not only sends a random letter to his father that IS cryptic, but also doe not return and is found in the tiber river. William obviously smelled something fishy. I mean William has more experience in the ''battlefield'' as an assassin than Desmond and company.
I agree, especially with the point about William's experience. This does raise yet another question: If he knew about Lucy, why did he feed such valuable information to Shaun? Was it fake, or did the attacks on these bases give her away?

On another note, I think looking back now, the fact the only people who know about the memories in "The Da Vinci Disappearance" are Rebecca and Desmond suggests he had an idea.


Sorry if I'm taking this even further off-topic, but I'm not sure about any actual inconsistencies.
"2. All this is true in which case Ubisoft have a hell of a lot of explaining to do in AC3"
They do anyway, that's why I can't wait xD.

LightRey
04-10-2012, 11:51 AM
Actually, he wasn't.

This was the chapter that Clay found, in the end, that Lucy betrayed the Assassins and joined the Templars. He clearly died after this.

The one that he was already dead was the last one, "The End of the Line".
Oh it's chapter 6. Well then that still doesn't mean that he was alive when Desmond was captured. Even if he did know what Desmond looked like at that time (which may very well not even be the case), he could've gotten that from a picture and clearly Desmond had never seen him, which makes it difficult for S16 to have seen Desmond.

Gil_217
04-10-2012, 12:02 PM
Oh it's chapter 6. Well then that still doesn't mean that he was alive when Desmond was captured. Even if he did know what Desmond looked like at that time (which may very well not even be the case), he could've gotten that from a picture and clearly Desmond had never seen him, which makes it difficult for S16 to have seen Desmond.

Of course.

But look, that image that was displayed of Desmond when Vidic mentioned Desmond's name while talking to Lucy was only there for dramatic effect or something, it didn't had another meaning, it didn't mean that Clay knew how Desmond looked like, it was only there for special effect or something like that. (I think they even used Desmond's model from Brotherhood)

And of course that Clay wasn't alive when Desmond was captured like you said.

zerocooll21
04-10-2012, 01:07 PM
Real Clay is Dead before meeting Desmond. AI Clay stuck in loop / Animus see's Desmond and how he looks. Does that work?

Phone call of Assassins rescue attempt in ACI was all for show. No one was coming, no one died. They were just trying to "break" Desmond so he would fully cooperate.

Acrimonious_Nin
04-10-2012, 04:00 PM
Going on the fact he can't wield the Apple properly, I'd guess (and I mean guess) that he hasn't. Lucy does say that Desmond picks Eagle Vision up because of the Animus sessions, but I think he already has the potential for it.

Again though, this is really going into the realms of speculation.




I agree, especially with the point about William's experience. This does raise yet another question: If he knew about Lucy, why did he feed such valuable information to Shaun? Was it fake, or did the attacks on these bases give her away?

On another note, I think looking back now, the fact the only people who know about the memories in "The Da Vinci Disappearance" are Rebecca and Desmond suggests he had an idea.


Sorry if I'm taking this even further off-topic, but I'm not sure about any actual inconsistencies.
"2. All this is true in which case Ubisoft have a hell of a lot of explaining to do in AC3"
They do anyway, that's why I can't wait xD.


I personally think that he with held information because he probably suspected that their was a mole in Desmond's 'group' just like there was in the others. Remember that William sends 'special' e-mails to Shaun that say that he did not want to alarm the other team members with what had happened in Denver? so, I am assuming that he knew something and did not want to stress them out anymore than what they already were, so he kept his mouth shut. Most likely he's thinking,''How the heck did Desmond know?'' XD AC1 Malik tell altair ''Anticipate, Altair'' in AC: lineage short Giovanni tell Ezio in a chess game, ''Anticipate, then attack''. I am assuming that this is one of the few overlooked ''messages'' that the game relays to the player, and most likely something that William will display at the beginning of the ''ambush'' >_> lol <---presuming that the Templar have launched an attack to William and co.

Perk89
04-10-2012, 05:54 PM
Lucy was a Templar spy. She lied to Desmond and the gang to serve Abstergo and the Templars. She is now dead, and not coming back. Some of you guys really need to just accept this.

Sheesh!

she-assassin
04-10-2012, 09:03 PM
Maybe it's just me, but there's something shifty about William and his relationship with Lucy. I've been rereading the e-mails in ACB and from what I gathered, she actually talked to him about her feelings for Desmond. And then there is the remark from ACR. Now that was weird. I guess William knows much more than he lets on...

Acrimonious_Nin
04-10-2012, 11:16 PM
Maybe it's just me, but there's something shifty about William and his relationship with Lucy. I've been rereading the e-mails in ACB and from what I gathered, she actually talked to him about her feelings for Desmond. And then there is the remark from ACR. Now that was weird. I guess William knows much more than he lets on...

That's for sure, I believe that we must give it our best to make sure William does not die! first Clay Kaczmarek now William is on the hit list. Do not let those who have what we seek, which is understanding, die so easily !!! If William dies by the ''Templar Attack'' then I am going to diarrhea all over the place >:O

LightRey
04-10-2012, 11:20 PM
Maybe it's just me, but there's something shifty about William and his relationship with Lucy. I've been rereading the e-mails in ACB and from what I gathered, she actually talked to him about her feelings for Desmond. And then there is the remark from ACR. Now that was weird. I guess William knows much more than he lets on...
I really don't see how that makes him suspicious. Even Shaun knew Lucy liked Desmond.

De Filosoof
04-11-2012, 12:51 AM
My question is...

Why did Vidic show up at the end of AC2 if it was planned all along?
Why did he try to knock down Desmond with a group of guards?
What if they really wounded him? Knocked him into a coma?
That would only slow down the process to find the stuff they are looking for.
I think it's pretty safe to say they needed to end Lucy's character because she left the AC project (it was kinda confirmed for me when her voice didn't showed up in TLA DLC) and they had to find a way to justify her death.
I replayed all the AC's after i player TLA at the hope that it would give a whole new dimension to Lucy's character but it somehow didn't felt like it was planned all along.

De Filosoof
04-11-2012, 12:57 AM
I really don't see how that makes him suspicious. Even Shaun knew Lucy liked Desmond.

It was mentioned that Daniel Cross is their SECOND best sleeper agent.
Lucy was definitely not their best agent because Daniel Cross killed the previous mentor and Lucy didn't do anything like that. She failed.
So what if William is a sleeper agent himself?
It would make him the most succesful sleeper agent, considering he became the assassins mentor himself.
The only problem is that the end of the ACR multiplayer story wouldn't make any sense though because Daniel and your multiplayer character were given the orders to kill William.

Acrimonious_Nin
04-11-2012, 01:08 AM
My question is...

Why did Vidic show up at the end of AC2 if it was planned all along?To pick up the tapes
Why did he try to knock down Desmond with a group of guards?Maybe, and I could be wrong, he was seeing if the animus's bleeding effect taught Desmond any skills to be sure the ''Templar recruits'' would actually learn as well, and not just waste money and time in the project?
What if they really wounded him? Knocked him into a coma?Oh, c'mon you saw him stab lucy and faint, you alse heard juno's voice right?
That would only slow down the process to find the stuff they are looking for.Actually that only took about a few weeks at best


It was mentioned that Daniel Cross is their SECOND best sleeper agent.
Lucy was definitely not their best agent because Daniel Cross killed the previous mentor and Lucy didn't do anything like that. She failed.
So what if William is a sleeper agent himself?
It would make him the most succesful sleeper agent considering he became the assassins mentor himself.
The end of the ACR wouldn't make sense though because Daniel and your multiplayer character were given the orders to kill William.

Omg lmao tell me your just trolling lol....>_> William can not be a sleeper agent because he was never inside Abstergo as far as we know it. And what would they achieve by putting a sleeper agent as a Leader in the Assassins order if that same leader is attacking the very people that made him? just stop being crazy please lmao XD

De Filosoof
04-11-2012, 01:23 AM
Acrimonious, you didn't get my point.
Try to read a little better next time before calling me a troll.
My points are very clear.
I'm not talking about the coma when he stabbed Lucy, i'm just talking about the chances of getting wounded while fighting off Vidic's guards at the end of AC2.
I don't understand why Vidic would take such an unnecessary risk while he could just wait and let Lucy do her work.

Ok, so what do you think, who's their best sleeper agent?
Daniel killed the assassin's previous mentor in a huge building in Dubai, that's quite an achievement.
Can you think of someone else that did even better?

I know William isn't a sleeper agent but it would make him a better agent than Daniel considering he's the mentor himself.
Get my point?

And by the way, we really don't know that much about William yet.
And even though it's most likely impossible for William to be a sleeper agent, we never know with the AC creators.
They can make some really weird twists like they did with Lucy and Clay.

Acrimonious_Nin
04-11-2012, 02:27 AM
Ok, I never called you a troll I just pointed out, in comic expression, that you seemed to be taking part of troll like behavior, even though you are not a troll.

If he would have gotten wounded fighting a guard, it would have been made clear in a cutscene or dialogue among the characters.

One, You have to understand that the whole Lucy acting worried as Vidic barged in was because That was 'Project Siren'. Just like how he is the leader of the 'Animus Project' and Vidic is always making sure things are running smoothly. Just like how Vidic is leader in the 'Templar Recruiting Project'(sorry I don't know the proper name) we all saw how he was always in the multiplayer protagonists face. So it is only natural that Vidic goes out of his way to make sure everything is going the way it should with 'Project Siren' . Plus if Lucy did not seem worried it would raise suspicion as to, why the leader of the Assassin's little squad did not take any initiative to the problem at hand. In other words, she had to play her part well, regardless of what side she was on at the time. Which in this case was with the Assassins.

Two, the best sleeper agent, you do realize that when the dossiers say best TEMPLAR sleeper we are talking about hundreds of years of Templar activity. If they said, best Abstergo sleeper, then we are talking about the time span starting from 1937 - 2012 and unfortunately we do not know ALL the people that, have been, nor currently, work for Abstergo. So to assume that the best sleeper is one of the character that we know are in the AC universe would be, by nature of the arguement, jumping to irrational conclusions. Unless proof is present to think otherwise, other than mere speculation.

Three, William is not a sleeper, nuff said >_>

LightRey
04-11-2012, 02:46 AM
Ok, I never called you a troll I just pointed out, in comic expression, that you seemed to be taking part of troll like behavior, even though you are not a troll.

If he would have gotten wounded fighting a guard, it would have been made clear in a cutscene or dialogue among the characters.

One, You have to understand that the whole Lucy acting worried as Vidic barged in was because That was 'Project Siren'. Just like how he is the leader of the 'Animus Project' and Vidic is always making sure things are running smoothly. Just like how Vidic is leader in the 'Templar Recruiting Project'(sorry I don't know the proper name) we all saw how he was always in the multiplayer protagonists face. So it is only natural that Vidic goes out of his way to make sure everything is going the way it should with 'Project Siren' . Plus if Lucy did not seem worried it would raise suspicion as to, why the leader of the Assassin's little squad did not take any initiative to the problem at hand. In other words, she had to play her part well, regardless of what side she was on at the time. Which in this case was with the Assassins.

Two, the best sleeper agent, you do realize that when the dossiers say best TEMPLAR sleeper we are talking about hundreds of years of Templar activity. If they said, best Abstergo sleeper, then we are talking about the time span starting from 1937 - 2012 and unfortunately we do not know ALL the people that, have been, nor currently, work for Abstergo. So to assume that the best sleeper is one of the character that we know are in the AC universe would be, by nature of the arguement, jumping to irrational conclusions. Unless proof is present to think otherwise, other than mere speculation.

Three, William is not a sleeper, nuff said >_>
Acrimonious_Nin, are you secretly awesome?

Acrimonious_Nin
04-11-2012, 02:52 AM
Acrimonious_Nin, are you secretly awesome?
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/18276369.jpg

XD Thank You, lol I appreciate the kind words lmao

Agentbarto
04-11-2012, 05:18 AM
They are. In the MP files they even refer to the original disaster that wiped out TWCB and they go on further to mention that another flare is coming.

Do we have the dates for those documents? If we do then I'll accept your argument. If we don't, whether they knew all along is then debatable. Either way, your argument doesn't explain away my argument regarding Lucy's predicament as a double agent.

LightRey
04-11-2012, 01:17 PM
Do we have the dates for those documents? If we do then I'll accept your argument. If we don't, whether they knew all along is then debatable. Either way, your argument doesn't explain away my argument regarding Lucy's predicament as a double agent.
What do you mean dates? Are you suggesting that they may only have found out about it after AC1? That's ridiculous. They wouldn't be referring to the Toba Catastrophe if all they knew came from Desmond's recorded sessions, assuming Lucy even had the opportunity to sneak those to Vidic after or during the end of ACII. The MP files make it very clear that the Templars are well informed about the reality behind the Toba Catastrophe and that it will happen again in the very recent future.

It does explain away her predicament. First of all, you assume that she would even be in a predicament because of this. You assume that she would care about the bigger picture, which from what she has shown regarding her motivations in TLA, she doesn't. Your entire argument is already based on this quite likely to be false assumption. Second, the fact that the Templars already have as much information about this, combined with the fact that they not at all seem intimidated by the fact that it is about to happen, strongly indicates that they have some sort of plan. They even made sure their satellite would be able to survive any hits from strong solar flares. Third, if you sincerely doubt that she would have succumbed to something similar to Stockholm Syndrome, you're being naive. Stockholm Syndrome is extremely common and considering her resentment for William's attitude and the fact that Vidic saved her (even though she suspects it's possible that was staged), it's more than likely that's exactly what happened.

Your entire theory is based purely on the assumption that she even would be in any kind of predicament, while from TLA it becomes obvious that the only real predicament she's in is on a personal level, as she most definitely cared for both Clay and Desmond.

I'd also like to point out that in ACII S16 actually refers to the fact that the Toba Catastrophe was actually not caused by a volcano (suspiciously mentioned right after showing a picture of the sun launching a solar flare). Seeing as S16 figured that out, it's very likely he got that information either during one of his sessions (which would have been recorded and likely monitored by the Templars, maybe even Lucy herself) or by hacking into the Abstergo mainframe.

Steww-
04-11-2012, 01:59 PM
While I'd go along with what Acrimonious_Nin said about the sleeper being someone we don't know, I think there's an argument for it being Lucy.
- She had a close relationship with an Assassin who was clearly 'chosen' in some way.
- She was receiving information about the whereabouts of Assassin's all over the globe.
- She was (as far as Abstergo know) in a position where she was trusted by the Assassin leader.
- She was preparing to get them a PoE.

Also, I think it's fairly clear that Abstergo are aware of the flare. It's certainly worth discussion though, since if Lucy goes along with some of the stuff from the dossiers, then she might even want this apocalypse.
" Apocalypses are events of great importance, turning points, which are followed by periods of renewal affecting all of mankind."
"Indeed, if our projections are correct, we are on the verge of another Apocalypse - one that will mark the dawn of a new age."
Plus a couple of quotes about EYE-ABSTERGO:
"The latest reports pertaining to Earth and space weather, more specifically solar flare projections, suggest that December 21 remains the most opportune time to launch the EYE-ABSTERGO satellite."
"Despite the rise in solar flare activity, the ASP should remain fully operational, even if the worse projections were to materialize."

dxsxhxcx
04-11-2012, 02:44 PM
after the end of ACB some people started to create theories about her being a templar, if this sleeper agent they talked about end up being her (Lucy), IMO that wouldn't be cool, I don't see the point in her being this sleeper agent now that she's already dead, I hope is someone from Connor's time, they can do a great plot twist with this...

De Filosoof
04-11-2012, 02:55 PM
Two, the best sleeper agent, you do realize that when the dossiers say best TEMPLAR sleeper we are talking about hundreds of years of Templar activity. If they said, best Abstergo sleeper, then we are talking about the time span starting from 1937 - 2012 and unfortunately we do not know ALL the people that, have been, nor currently, work for Abstergo. So to assume that the best sleeper is one of the character that we know are in the AC universe would be, by nature of the arguement, jumping to irrational conclusions. Unless proof is present to think otherwise, other than mere speculation.



Theoretically, yes.
But there has to be a reason why they put such a fact in the ACR multiplayer.
It's pure logic to assume their best sleeper agent didn't live in 1940 because that wouldn't make sense storywise.
I think we'll find out in AC3 who their best sleeper agent is.

infamous_ezio
04-11-2012, 04:47 PM
isn't a sleeper agent one who isn't aware that their working for templars? if so then the letter from TLA pretty much sais lucy isn't a sleeper but a mole

Acrimonious_Nin
04-11-2012, 05:25 PM
isn't a sleeper agent one who isn't aware that their working for templars? if so then the letter from TLA pretty much sais lucy isn't a sleeper but a mole

Yes. A sleeper agent is psychologically molded to believe what ever they were 'programmed' to believe, Daniel Cross is a perfect example. A mole, I believe, is an individual that is fully aware of what they are doing.

A sleeper agent does things which are actions of subconscious impulses, like Daniel Cross, while Lucy on the other hand is being told what to do based on what her current mission is. In other words Lucy is clearly not 'programmed'. At the most she is just persuaded based off of her emotional condition. The feeling of betrayal. And most people have learned, the hard way, as to what happens when you betray a female that pledged her loyalty to the adherent betrayer. :D lmao

infamous_ezio
04-11-2012, 05:31 PM
Yes. A sleeper agent is psychological molded to believe what ever they were 'programmed' to believe, Daniel Cross is a perfect example. A mole, I believe, is an individual that is fully aware of what they are doing.

A sleeper agent does things which are actions of subconscious impulses, like Daniel Cross, while Lucy on the other hand is being told what to do based on what her current mission is. In other words Lucy is clearly not 'programmed'. At the most she is just persuaded.

ohh yeh i remember now. i swear someone said lucy was a sleeper at one point... lol

Acrimonious_Nin
04-11-2012, 05:53 PM
Theoretically, yes.
But there has to be a reason why they put such a fact in the ACR multiplayer.
It's pure logic to assume their best sleeper agent didn't live in 1940 because that wouldn't make sense storywise.
I think we'll find out in AC3 who their best sleeper agent is.

Actually Infamous_ezio has a point. A sleeper agent is one that has been programmed through psychological processes, read the beginning of AC: The Fall, Lucy is not 'programmed' at best she was hurt because she was 'betrayed', in her perception, then persuaded to come to the Templar side when she saw that Vidic 'saved her', maybe he set the scene all up so she can see that Templars are not bad. Any ways If Daniel cross is the best sleeper agent, then Lucy cannot be part of the ''sleeper agent'' speculation because she was at best a mole not a sleeper, Also she was at best persuaded not 'programmed'. So your speculation with Lucy being a sleeper fails.

Now, Williams miles could never be a Sleeper agent. He never sleeps. So William could never be a sleeper agent. With the Assassins Creed being a UNIVERSE there is a big chance that the Best sleeper agent is unknown to us and most likely lived somewhere from, realistically speaking, from 1129 - 2012..... >_> see what I mean that is a crazy amount of Templars that we do not know about. And william shows no symptoms of a sleeper agent.

Steww-
04-11-2012, 07:42 PM
Just to point out, it doesn't actually say the best sleeper agent.
"However, Subject 4 is much more than a man who happened to have Assassin ancestors. He became a Sleeper, and our second most successful undercover operative to date."

she-assassin
04-11-2012, 07:52 PM
I don't see how Lucy could have been the Templars best sleeper agent. Compared to what Daniel did, she doesn't stand a chance. Just no.
But she could be a sleeper agent. Her reasoning why she chose the Templar side is irrational at best. She says that William just uses people as if they were mere objects but at the same time she doesn't see that Abstergo is doing the same if not even worse. That doesn't make sense. She's been either brainwashed or "programmed" just like Daniel.

De Filosoof
04-11-2012, 07:58 PM
Now, Williams miles could never be a Sleeper agent. He never sleeps. So William could never be a sleeper agent. With the Assassins Creed being a UNIVERSE there is a big chance that the Best sleeper agent is unknown to us and most likely lived somewhere from, realistically speaking, from 1129 - 2012..... >_> see what I mean that is a crazy amount of Templars that we do not know about. And william shows no symptoms of a sleeper agent.

That's nonsense, they didn't had the technology to make someone a sleeper agent back then.

POP1Fan
04-11-2012, 09:49 PM
I don't see how Lucy could have been the Templars best sleeper agent. Compared to what Daniel did, she doesn't stand a chance. Just no.
But she could be a sleeper agent. Her reasoning why she chose the Templar side is irrational at best. She says that William just uses people as if they were mere objects but at the same time she doesn't see that Abstergo is doing the same if not even worse. That doesn't make sense. She's been either brainwashed or "programmed" just like Daniel.

She could be...she almost found the Grand Temple, found a POE, fooled Desmond and could've had a chance to kill William, who is the present day Mentor. Daniel only killed the Mentor (of course this broke the Assassins, but this should be more because of the whole plan of the Mentors death) so Lucy has a couple of point ahead of him. Point is, while Daniel broke the Order, Lucy could have just dealt the final blow.

Acrimonious_Nin
04-11-2012, 09:53 PM
That's nonsense, they didn't had the technology to make someone a sleeper agent back then.

you do not need technology to get someone to be a sleeper agent...and in one of the dossiers they say that they used to have a ways to get people into dream like states, or schizophrenic like states, with hypnosis and or drugs, but with the advent of the animus they did not need those old techniques anymore...so what makes you think that back then, when Al mualim told Altair that they were using herbs, and drugs, to induce a similar state of 'trance'. The same trance state that the apple of Eden can induce ? I believe that they had their ways, ineffective, but they found ways to imitate the power of 'modern' technology. So I do not see how it was impossible to turn someone into a sleeper agent, with lets say drugs. So what are you trying to say ? that only when they invented the animus they understood the basic processes of nature ? or did the technology make it easier to achieve their goals? maybe that's why they are after the pieces of Eden ? to make their lives easier?

P.S when you quoted what I was saying about William not being a sleeper and said what I just quoted you here. Were you by any chance implying that in 1948 they did not have the tech. to produce a sleeper agent regardless that Lee Harvey Oswald was in fact a sleeper agent that assassinated JFK?

Agentbarto
04-12-2012, 02:30 AM
What do you mean dates? Are you suggesting that they may only have found out about it after AC1? That's ridiculous. They wouldn't be referring to the Toba Catastrophe if all they knew came from Desmond's recorded sessions, assuming Lucy even had the opportunity to sneak those to Vidic after or during the end of ACII. The MP files make it very clear that the Templars are well informed about the reality behind the Toba Catastrophe and that it will happen again in the very recent future.

It does explain away her predicament. First of all, you assume that she would even be in a predicament because of this. You assume that she would care about the bigger picture, which from what she has shown regarding her motivations in TLA, she doesn't. Your entire argument is already based on this quite likely to be false assumption. Second, the fact that the Templars already have as much information about this, combined with the fact that they not at all seem intimidated by the fact that it is about to happen, strongly indicates that they have some sort of plan. They even made sure their satellite would be able to survive any hits from strong solar flares. Third, if you sincerely doubt that she would have succumbed to something similar to Stockholm Syndrome, you're being naive. Stockholm Syndrome is extremely common and considering her resentment for William's attitude and the fact that Vidic saved her (even though she suspects it's possible that was staged), it's more than likely that's exactly what happened.

Your entire theory is based purely on the assumption that she even would be in any kind of predicament, while from TLA it becomes obvious that the only real predicament she's in is on a personal level, as she most definitely cared for both Clay and Desmond.

I'd also like to point out that in ACII S16 actually refers to the fact that the Toba Catastrophe was actually not caused by a volcano (suspiciously mentioned right after showing a picture of the sun launching a solar flare). Seeing as S16 figured that out, it's very likely he got that information either during one of his sessions (which would have been recorded and likely monitored by the Templars, maybe even Lucy herself) or by hacking into the Abstergo mainframe.

Yes I am implying this. We have no clear confirmation that we discovered these things through any of Desmond's sessions. Keep in mind they had other subjects. Also you're messing up her psychological profile man. Everything I said stands true given that she expressed clear doubts in the Templar/Assassin war, and any alignment one may take. She saw the entire argument as pointless when faced with the possibility of extinction. Though she played both sides, I suspect she did so out of a necessity for survival whatever the outcome, not because she was truly in ideological agreement with the Templars. Keep in mind those distinct groups are easily falsely equated with the philosophical implications of said alignment. I guess I'm simply arguing that she wasn't an ideological Templar and it seems that this particular statement of yours leaves that door open for debate:


Second, the fact that the Templars already have as much information about this, combined with the fact that they not at all seem intimidated by the fact that it is about to happen, strongly indicates that they have some sort of plan.

Again... Survival tactic, that's all I'm saying; unless of course you're implying she was incapable of planning ahead, and being individualistic and Machiavellian (Both traits more dangerous than any Templar characteristic).

Also, did I miss something because if I recall correctly, whatever information we get from Clay's archives is merely a perception of truth. We wouldn't know exactly what she was planning unless we dug deeper into who she is, and honestly she doesn't seem so petty as to switch sides philosophically because she disagrees with a higher-up.

Evan52395
04-12-2012, 02:55 AM
Just to point out, it doesn't actually say the best sleeper agent.
"However, Subject 4 is much more than a man who happened to have Assassin ancestors. He became a Sleeper, and our second most successful undercover operative to date."
Strange that you were ignored seeing as a lot of this arguing could've been avoided had you not been.

They can still be referring to Lucy as their most successful undercover operative because she did a lot for the company, and, whether she was a sleeper or a mole, did operate undercover successfully for a while. She could've still received that title had she been either one.

Acrimonious_Nin
04-12-2012, 03:09 AM
Just to point out, it doesn't actually say the best sleeper agent.
"However, Subject 4 is much more than a man who happened to have Assassin ancestors. He became a Sleeper, and our second most successful undercover operative to date."

why did you not say this like 2 pages back?!?!?


Strange that you were ignored seeing as a lot of this arguing could've been avoided had you not been.

They can still be referring to Lucy as their most successful undercover operative because she did a lot for the company, and, whether she was a sleeper or a mole, did operate undercover successfully for a while. She could've still received that title had she been either one.

@ Evan52395 umm tell me, if you here Justin Bieber sing ''Oopss I did it again'' then later bought a Britney Spears CD and heard the same song do you say that Britney Spears is covering Justin Bieber? No, you would not, so when they say the Daniel Cross in the SECOND best undercover operative then the first must have been before 1999-2000 when he assassinated the mentor. Lucy can never be first since she came into ABSTERGO in 2005 - 2012.

Truth is that William is not a sleeper agent.

And just to throw this off topic a bit, Does anyone here think that James Morse IS the Master Templar in the end of MP story line ? or is it two different characters? I mean, to put what is going on inside Abstergo better. We have characters that are not clear in the series...we have James Morse, which I believe might be the Master Templar, here's the proof James Morse's e-mails end in the beginning of 2011 and coincidentally the Templar recruits reach a higher rank than the other recruits by the end of 2012. (That is all for my speculation XD.)

The second character is the assassin recruit that is contacted by erudito through the data dump system. Assuming that the recruit is convinced by erudito slipping 'Assassin propaganda' to him/her, Abstergo might have a dilemma, where there is another initiated 'Assassin' with in Abstergo's ranks secretly. Get what I mean :D There might be a Twist there lurking for AC3 ;) that's why the MP files says that Project Legacy is on hold, most likely because ubisoft has this planned out.

Evan52395
04-12-2012, 03:47 AM
why did you not say this like 2 pages back?!?!?



@ Evan52395 umm tell me, if you here Justin Bieber sing ''Oopss I did it again'' then later bought a Britney Spears CD and heard the same song do you say that Britney Spears is covering Justin Bieber? No, you would not, so when they say the Daniel Cross in the SECOND best undercover operative then the first must have been before 1999-2000 when he assassinated the mentor. Lucy can never be first since she came into ABSTERGO in 2005 - 2012.

The fact that she may or may not do a better job has nothing to do with whoever did theirs first. If he were to have said "first undercover operative to date", instead of "most successful", I could see where you're coming from.

Arguably, I'd say S4 is more worthy of the title considering what he's done, but if Lucy merits the title in the Templar's eyes, then so be it.

dxsxhxcx
04-12-2012, 04:06 AM
The fact that she may or may not do a better job has nothing to do with whoever did theirs first. If he were to have said "first undercover operative to date", instead of "most successful" I could see where you're coming from.

Arguably, I'd say S4 is more worthy of the title considering what he's done, but if Lucy merits the title in the Templar's eyes then so be it.


I agree with you, judging by what we know about Lucy until now, I can't think in something that she could have done that would be better than kill the Mentor of the Assassin Order and tell the Templars where probably all their hideouts around the world were, what makes me wonder what the hell this "most successful" sleeper agent did that could be better than Daniel's achievement...

Acrimonious_Nin
04-12-2012, 04:56 AM
Just to point out, it doesn't actually say the best sleeper agent.
"However, Subject 4 is much more than a man who happened to have Assassin ancestors. He became a Sleeper, and our second most successful undercover operative to date That would be the second most SUCCESSFUL as of the year 2000. "



Strange that you were ignored seeing as a lot of this arguing could've been avoided had you not been.

They can still be referring to Lucy as their most successful undercover operative because she did a lot for the company, and, whether she was a sleeper or a mole, did operate undercover successfully for a while. She could've still received that title had she been either one. Lucy would technically be the Third most successful.



The fact that she may or may not do a better job has nothing to do with whoever did theirs first. If he were to have said "first undercover operative to date", instead of "most successful", I could see where you're coming from.Actually the dossier does say second most successful and refers up until that point which is1999-2000

Arguably, I'd say S4 is more worthy of the title considering what he's done, but if Lucy merits the title in the Templar's eyes, then so be it. It's not a title it's in order lucy would have been the third most successful undercover operative to date which would be in 2012.



It never says, ''most successful'' it says, '' second most successful undercover operative to date'' which implies that up until 1999-2000 there have only been 2 successful undercover operatives. You aren't making much sense.

Daniel Cross is the Second most successful undercover operative which means that the First successful undercover operative came before, and I can assure you it was most likely Lee Harvey Oswald that was the first sleeper as of 1963. Making Lucy(if she would have succeeded) Third most successful undercover operative.

To make it easier for you to under stand here is the chronological order....

First most successful : Lee Harvey Oswald 1963

Second most successful : Daniel Cross 2000

Third most successful : (if lucy would have succeeded) Lucy stillman 2012

Get it now. Yeah you are right about one thing, its not about ''the best'', but it is about ''the most successful'', so Lucy would not have ever been the 1st, let alone a sleeper, which she was not, undercover Templar operative due to the fact that she defected around 2005 - 2012, which is 6 years after the SECOND making Lucy (if she would have succeeded) the THIRD lol you people are reading this wrong lol.

Acrimonious_Nin
04-12-2012, 05:06 AM
I agree with you, judging by what we know about Lucy until now, I can't think in something that she could have done that would be better than kill the Mentor of the Assassin Order and tell the Templars where probably all their hideouts around the world were, what makes me wonder what the hell this "most successful" sleeper agent did that could be better than Daniel's achievement...

No one ever says ''most successful'' it is never a matter of who did the best job. It is the matter of who actually successfully completed their mission. Daniel was not the ''most successful'' he was the ''second most successful undercover operative'' making the whole argument about chronology not merit.

Evan52395
04-12-2012, 05:15 AM
It never says, ''most successful'' it says, '' second most successful undercover operative to date'' which implies that up until 1999-2000 there have only been 2 successful undercover operatives. You aren't making much sense.

Daniel Cross is the Second most successful undercover operative which means that the First successful undercover operative came before, and I can assure you it was most likely Lee Harvey Oswald that was the first sleeper as of 1963. Making Lucy(if she would have succeeded) Third most successful undercover operative.

To make it easier for you to under stand here is the chronological order....

First most successful : Lee Harvey Oswald 1963

Second most successful : Daniel Cross 2000

Third most successful : (if lucy would have succeeded) Lucy stillman 2012

Get it now. Yeah you are right about one thing, its not about ''the best'', but it is about ''the most successful'', so Lucy would not have ever been the 1st, let alone a sleeper, which she was not, undercover Templar operative due to the fact that she defected around 2005 - 2012, which is 6 years after the SECOND making Lucy (if she would have succeeded) the THIRD lol you people are reading this wrong lol.

"most successful" is in the sentence "second most successful under..." I was using a segment of it. I'm aware the word "second" is there, thank you...
I didn't know he was saying it in order, which can explain the misunderstanding. I see what you meant.

By the way, "understand" is one word. You should probably edit that so people can have an easier time under standing you...

Acrimonious_Nin
04-12-2012, 05:25 AM
"most successful" is in the sentence "second most successful under..." I was using a segment of it. I'm aware the word "second" is there, thank you...
I didn't know he was saying it in order, which can explain the misunderstanding. I see what you meant.

By the way, "understand" is one word. You should probably edit that so people can have an easier time under standing you...

What made you think that by removing 80% of the sentence that it would not throw people off ? it would confuse them more than a mere typo. Your Welcome

So now that you have understood what I have been saying you want to use trolling as an excuse to escape the fact that you were arguing based off of misconception?

http://0.tqn.com/d/webtrends/1/0/G/A/-/-/lolguy.png

Evan52395
04-12-2012, 05:35 AM
http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/png/troll-trollface-20.png

Seriously though, English spelling shouldn't be an issue living in NA

Acrimonious_Nin
04-12-2012, 05:38 AM
AC1 assassin combat trainer, '' This my friends is how we all should fight'' not like this ^ muahahaha the face of someone who has tacitly admitted defeat XD I accept your proposal of surrender. You were just wrong that's all :D

Evan52395
04-12-2012, 05:47 AM
AC1 assassin combat trainer, '' This my friends is how we all should fight'' not like this ^ muahahaha the face of someone who has tacitly admitted defeat XD I accept your proposal of surrender. You were just wrong that's all :D

Surrender? "I never learned how."

LightRey
04-12-2012, 11:34 AM
Yes I am implying this. We have no clear confirmation that we discovered these things through any of Desmond's sessions. Keep in mind they had other subjects. Also you're messing up her psychological profile man. Everything I said stands true given that she expressed clear doubts in the Templar/Assassin war, and any alignment one may take. She saw the entire argument as pointless when faced with the possibility of extinction. Though she played both sides, I suspect she did so out of a necessity for survival whatever the outcome, not because she was truly in ideological agreement with the Templars. Keep in mind those distinct groups are easily falsely equated with the philosophical implications of said alignment. I guess I'm simply arguing that she wasn't an ideological Templar and it seems that this particular statement of yours leaves that door open for debate:



Again... Survival tactic, that's all I'm saying; unless of course you're implying she was incapable of planning ahead, and being individualistic and Machiavellian (Both traits more dangerous than any Templar characteristic).

Also, did I miss something because if I recall correctly, whatever information we get from Clay's archives is merely a perception of truth. We wouldn't know exactly what she was planning unless we dug deeper into who she is, and honestly she doesn't seem so petty as to switch sides philosophically because she disagrees with a higher-up.
Where did you get that from regarding her motivations? At what **** point does she even show significant interest in the solar flare? Looking back, her reaction to the whole thing at the end of ACII was underwhelming. She isn't at all interested in the solar flare and even if she was worried, she's obviously convinced that whatever plan the Templars have (which could be as simple as having relatively few people survive the disaster in secure locations, such as the Temples) is the best way. At every single turn she shows emotion it is either regarding the Assassin teams she's betraying, Desmond or S16. She shows absolutely no emotion about anything regarding the solar flare.

Furthermore, I don't need conclusive evidence. You're the one presenting the theory, not me. You're the one with the burden of evidence. Your theory shows no signs of being in any way true. There is no conclusive evidence and what evidence you have provided can (better) be interpreted in a way that contradicts your theory.

A survival tactic? Seriously? There is a reason TWCB made sure she was stabbed, y'know. Furthermore, she betrayed Clay. It wasn't a survival tactic. She had turned. You're letting your emotions about the subject cloud your mind.

You missed this (glyph 19 of ACII):

The Fourth Day

Subject 16 (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Subject_16) advises "It (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/First_Disaster) happened once before. The Pieces (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Pieces_of_Eden) were once part of a whole." Your first puzzle is a 'common theme' picture set: select the five pictures depicting the sun: Nazca Textile c. 200; Aztec Calendar Stone 1427; The Eastern Gate 1816; Book of the Dead c. 1310 BCE.; Sistine Chapel Ceiling Fresco 1512.
Finally you need to locate the Earth within the picture of the Sun. It's located just below and left of the centre. There are also four unencrypted messages in the picture, indicating that "fire from the heavens" caused terrible loss of life."

Source used: My memory of ACII and the AC wiki (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Glyphs).

infamous_ezio
04-12-2012, 12:58 PM
Where did you get that from regarding her motivations? At what **** point does she even show significant interest in the solar flare? Looking back, her reaction to the whole thing at the end of ACII was underwhelming. She isn't at all interested in the solar flare and even if she was worried, she's obviously convinced that whatever plan the Templars have (which could be as simple as having relatively few people survive the disaster in secure locations, such as the Temples) is the best way. At every single turn she shows emotion it is either regarding the Assassin teams she's betraying, Desmond or S16. She shows absolutely no emotion about anything regarding the solar flare.

Furthermore, I don't need conclusive evidence. You're the one presenting the theory, not me. You're the one with the burden of evidence. Your theory shows no signs of being in any way true. There is no conclusive evidence and what evidence you have provided can (better) be interpreted in a way that contradicts your theory.

A survival tactic? Seriously? There is a reason TWCB made sure she was stabbed, y'know. Furthermore, she betrayed Clay. It wasn't a survival tactic. She had turned. You're letting your emotions about the subject cloud your mind.

You missed this (glyph 19 of ACII):

The Fourth Day

Subject 16 (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Subject_16) advises "It (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/First_Disaster) happened once before. The Pieces (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Pieces_of_Eden) were once part of a whole." Your first puzzle is a 'common theme' picture set: select the five pictures depicting the sun: Nazca Textile c. 200; Aztec Calendar Stone 1427; The Eastern Gate 1816; Book of the Dead c. 1310 BCE.; Sistine Chapel Ceiling Fresco 1512.
Finally you need to locate the Earth within the picture of the Sun. It's located just below and left of the centre. There are also four unencrypted messages in the picture, indicating that "fire from the heavens" caused terrible loss of life."

Source used: My memory of ACII and the AC wiki (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Glyphs).

Your point about lucy showing emotion about the solar flare is inaccurate... why? because at no point does any of the other assassin's show any emotion, how would you expect her to react? "OMFG THE SUN IS GOING KILL US DAFUQ!?!?!?!?". No they wouldn't react like that, they found that they needed a new job and they went straight to it, heck, desmond didn't even show any emotion. Also what relevance does the fourth day glyph have to any of this?

LightRey
04-12-2012, 07:21 PM
Your point about lucy showing emotion about the solar flare is inaccurate... why? because at no point does any of the other assassin's show any emotion, how would you expect her to react? "OMFG THE SUN IS GOING KILL US DAFUQ!?!?!?!?". No they wouldn't react like that, they found that they needed a new job and they went straight to it, heck, desmond didn't even show any emotion. Also what relevance does the fourth day glyph have to any of this?
It doesn't have to be accurate. There is no evidence of her being in any way in a dilemma regarding the solar flare. That doesn't mean she wasn't, but since there is no evidence of it cannot be used as a point for his theory. She could be, or she could not be, but she's not obviously worried by it as she expresses nothing. Let's also not forget that the others (Rebecca and Shaun), likely contrary to Lucy, have yet to receive any confirmation of this event occurring in the future. They only have the info they got from ACII, which wasn't conclusive or detailed.

Medo3G
04-12-2012, 10:37 PM
Well seeing as TLA does not seem to have been viewed by Desmond, we can assume that he doesn't know about Lucy's betrayal yet and it's therefore quite likely that he will at some point find out about it. I can imagine stuff like that will be dealt with in the ACIII plot and seeing as ACR wasn't originally planned to be the game it is, I can imagine that's the reason Desmond did not witness TLA himself in the first place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4x1H8x9YSM

cless711
04-12-2012, 10:50 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4x1H8x9YSM

Seeing this makes me wish that we could have done those first person journey things in 3rd person..

But anyway, back on topic, what are you trying to show us with this video?

zerocooll21
04-12-2012, 10:59 PM
ARG that red writing room! I really wanted to explore that....

LightRey
04-13-2012, 01:10 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4x1H8x9YSM
Well that was pointless.

Agentbarto
04-13-2012, 07:24 AM
Where did you get that from regarding her motivations? At what **** point does she even show significant interest in the solar flare? Looking back, her reaction to the whole thing at the end of ACII was underwhelming. She isn't at all interested in the solar flare and even if she was worried, she's obviously convinced that whatever plan the Templars have (which could be as simple as having relatively few people survive the disaster in secure locations, such as the Temples) is the best way. At every single turn she shows emotion it is either regarding the Assassin teams she's betraying, Desmond or S16. She shows absolutely no emotion about anything regarding the solar flare.

Really? So lemme get this straight... you expect her to break down when she has her suspicions confirmed at the end of ACII? Yeah keep in mind the reactions of the others were much more profound given they had next to no idea regarding TFC. I'm not trying to create fan-fiction here, I'm just saying we're jumping to conclusions based on what little evidence we've gained via surface details, regarding Lucy's true intentions. There are mannerisms exhibited by her character that cast doubt on any commitment she could have made publicly.


Furthermore, I don't need conclusive evidence. You're the one presenting the theory, not me. You're the one with the burden of evidence. Your theory shows no signs of being in any way true. There is no conclusive evidence and what evidence you have provided can (better) be interpreted in a way that contradicts your theory.

A survival tactic? Seriously? There is a reason TWCB made sure she was stabbed, y'know. Furthermore, she betrayed Clay. It wasn't a survival tactic. She had turned. You're letting your emotions about the subject cloud your mind.

Yeah, survival tactic. Definitely more dangerous than any commitment to an alliance as she'll screw anyone over, and given that Desmond was really close to her, she could have led him astray. Thus resulting in her execution. Emotions? I'm not the one defending my theory by saying I don't need conclusive evidence and that my word is law. Also let's face facts, the fact is that she was a double agent to be sure. The reasons for this are often self-serving. Keeping this in mind, it would be illogical to assume we've figured her out simply by her choice of achieved status. Wasn't this the same mistake Harry made in not trusting Snape? I believe so.

infamous_ezio
04-13-2012, 11:21 AM
It doesn't have to be accurate. There is no evidence of her being in any way in a dilemma regarding the solar flare. That doesn't mean she wasn't, but since there is no evidence of it cannot be used as a point for his theory. She could be, or she could not be, but she's not obviously worried by it as she expresses nothing. Let's also not forget that the others (Rebecca and Shaun), likely contrary to Lucy, have yet to receive any confirmation of this event occurring in the future. They only have the info they got from ACII, which wasn't conclusive or detailed.

dude, you contradict yourself in so many ways. You try using the fact that lucy showed no emotion toward the solar flare as a way of justifying that her motives were to support the templars. If you say it doesn't have to be accurate then it is not conclusive evidence, hence what you said in your original post is completely wrong and contradictory to what you are saying now.
The only people who have had further confirmation then anyone is Desmond and 16. We can't say this is so but william may know alot about it, considering he knows about the temples, and who knows, we didn't get to hear every bit of dialogue between shaun, rebecca and will while in the coma, william could know more then we know.

Acrimonious_Nin
04-13-2012, 12:27 PM
What are the main points being defended here, because I am lost.

infamous_ezio
04-13-2012, 12:36 PM
What are the main points being defended here, because I am lost.

i have no idea... i just joined in on this page ahah

Acrimonious_Nin
04-13-2012, 12:44 PM
No you joined in the last page >_>....and you joined in to attack, which confused me because agentbarto makes no sense and I kinda can't understand lightrey's defence either. They both seem to be arguing about different matters. Which is very confusing.

zerocooll21
04-13-2012, 12:46 PM
No you joined in the last page >_>....and you joined in to attack, which confused me because agentbarto makes no sense and I kinda can't understand lightrey's defence either. They both seem to be arguing about different matters. Which is very confusing.

Welcome to the Lost Archive (que in mad scientist laughter)

Acrimonious_Nin
04-13-2012, 12:51 PM
Ok just to jump in here If I understand....The MP files and S16's messages all lead to the probable fact that most people that are well informed, Abstergo and the Assassins, know that there is a possible solar flare coming. Like S16 says, '' A few still know the truth, it is around us in signs, and paintings,faces, documents, but we dont see it. See, we are...we are blind to our own creation.'' so the MP files do not have to be the only source of info. A lot of the info is well laid out through out history as subject 16 shows it through the glyphs, hinting to the probable fact that all you have to do is look in an ancient cave and see that the ancient people all talked about some kind of disaster that happened or will happen. So the MP files and S16's message is more than enough evidence to prove that the Templars are most likely aware of these facts since before 1937. Since the messages have been written in caves are temples around the 1st - 11th century and maybe even way into the B.C eras.

Lucy, as we know it and not through speculation, was and still maintains the title of Templar agent. That's it. Nothing to see here. She was left alone by the assassins. Judging by how Warren Vidic says, '' while you are there with your assassins, ask them as to why they left to alone for so long.'' Indicates that they may be an ''emotional variable'' there, but as far as Clay and the gamers know, Lucy was going to betray the assassins, Hence Juno taking matters into her own...I mean Desmond left hand >_>. So regardless as to how she was acting, her allegiance was clear in the eyes of Juno and HE WHO GOES AGAINST THE WILL OF THE GODS SHALL PERISH!!!!

I mean Juno seemed hellbent to kill Lucy and make them suffer a loss. Juno: '' They must suffer as we have suffered!'' (in thunder voice)

infamous_ezio
04-13-2012, 01:14 PM
No you joined in the last page >_>....and you joined in to attack, which confused me because agentbarto makes no sense and I kinda can't understand lightrey's defence either. They both seem to be arguing about different matters. Which is very confusing.

no i didn't lol, i just thought lightrey was incorrect man i wasn't being agressive if it seems like that

xOMGITSJASONx
04-13-2012, 06:48 PM
I still need to play Lost Archives (I skipped the spoilers in this thread).

Medo3G
04-14-2012, 11:31 AM
Seeing this makes me wish that we could have done those first person journey things in 3rd person..

But anyway, back on topic, what are you trying to show us with this video?
If I'm not mistaken the first scene in the trailer (after the end of ACB) is off TLA cuz it doesn't look like it in the island (but maybe ubi changed it as the rest of the puzzles look different)
also when he says WTH it's a scene from TLA
So MAYBE Desmond saw TLA not Clay (though not sure abut the login in the second ending means, maybe it was saved to be initiated when that portal was reached)

LightRey
04-14-2012, 01:10 PM
Really? So lemme get this straight... you expect her to break down when she has her suspicions confirmed at the end of ACII? Yeah keep in mind the reactions of the others were much more profound given they had next to no idea regarding TFC. I'm not trying to create fan-fiction here, I'm just saying we're jumping to conclusions based on what little evidence we've gained via surface details, regarding Lucy's true intentions. There are mannerisms exhibited by her character that cast doubt on any commitment she could have made publicly.



Yeah, survival tactic. Definitely more dangerous than any commitment to an alliance as she'll screw anyone over, and given that Desmond was really close to her, she could have led him astray. Thus resulting in her execution. Emotions? I'm not the one defending my theory by saying I don't need conclusive evidence and that my word is law. Also let's face facts, the fact is that she was a double agent to be sure. The reasons for this are often self-serving. Keeping this in mind, it would be illogical to assume we've figured her out simply by her choice of achieved status. Wasn't this the same mistake Harry made in not trusting Snape? I believe so.
No, I don't expect her to break down, but all she does is say she knows what it might be. She's not like: "oh, shi-. We're all gonna die." either. Besides, if you're saying it should not be expected for her to react like that, then why are you suggesting she's influenced by it in any emotional way in the first place?
Seriously? Very little evidence? She literally said she was betraying Clay, everything she has done up to know to "help" Desmond and Clay was ordered by Vidic, she went against Williams orders, she said she had tried to see if she could turn Clay against the Assassins, she on several occasions expresses that you can't consider either side of the conflict evil and to top it all off, Juno has Desmond kill her. There is more than enough convincing evidence. She was a Templar agent.

Why would she try to lead him astray? She already knows Desmond doesn't like the Templars if only because of the fact that the only reason he was against the Assassins at first was because he didn't believe the whole "the Templars control the world" crap. The very way she did become close to him was because she was pretending she disagreed with the people she was working for and "sneaking" him information. If she had told him that she was actually working for the Templars after all and that she agreed with them, Desmond would have turned on her if only because she was a danger to his parents. It's not that there is no logic in this, it's that you're not willing to acknowledge it.
Don't compare this to Harry's relationship with Snape. There is a huge difference. Harry never trusted Snape to begin with, not to mention (SPOILER ALERT) Snape killed Dumbledore right in front of his eyes. Besides, there are self-serving reasons for Lucy's betrayal. She was left alone by the Assassins for years and since she was only 16. She had no contact, no help, just people asking her to do stuff after years of no communication whatsoever. She hated William for his coldhearted methods. She literally says the way William treats people is not just. I'm sincerely beginning to doubt you even read her message to Clay in TLA.


dude, you contradict yourself in so many ways. You try using the fact that lucy showed no emotion toward the solar flare as a way of justifying that her motives were to support the templars. If you say it doesn't have to be accurate then it is not conclusive evidence, hence what you said in your original post is completely wrong and contradictory to what you are saying now.
The only people who have had further confirmation then anyone is Desmond and 16. We can't say this is so but william may know alot about it, considering he knows about the temples, and who knows, we didn't get to hear every bit of dialogue between shaun, rebecca and will while in the coma, william could know more then we know.
No I am not. The fact of the matter is that she does in fact show no emotion about the whole solar flare thing. That is not a point of mine to "prove" that she already knew of it from the Templars, it's merely a point of mine to show that she is not emotionally affected by it in any way and regardless of whether the same goes for the others, that shows that she is not under any kind of "dilemma" regarding which side to pick to get rid of said solar flare. It is merely suggestive of the possibility that she already knew of the thing to begin with. For one, she immediately brings up a theory that turns out to be spot on (granted, I already knew of this particular end-of-the-world scenario too) and because she also shows no emotional reaction at all, even while bringing it up, it (slightly) suggests that she already knew it was true, which considering the fact that the Assassins seem to have been completely unaware of it all, can really almost only mean that she got the info from the Templars, which makes sense considering she worked for them.

infamous_ezio
04-14-2012, 02:17 PM
No I am not. The fact of the matter is that she does in fact show no emotion about the whole solar flare thing. That is not a point of mine to "prove" that she already knew of it from the Templars, it's merely a point of mine to show that she is not emotionally affected by it in any way and regardless of whether the same goes for the others, that shows that she is not under any kind of "dilemma" regarding which side to pick to get rid of said solar flare. It is merely suggestive of the possibility that she already knew of the thing to begin with. For one, she immediately brings up a theory that turns out to be spot on (granted, I already knew of this particular end-of-the-world scenario too) and because she also shows no emotional reaction at all, even while bringing it up, it (slightly) suggests that she already knew it was true, which considering the fact that the Assassins seem to have been completely unaware of it all, can really almost only mean that she got the info from the Templars, which makes sense considering she worked for them.

yes you are.. i really cbf arguing with you man, way to stubborn!

LightRey
04-14-2012, 02:55 PM
yes you are.. i really cbf arguing with you man, way to stubborn!
Then don't.