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View Full Version : Whoever thinks LCD wont do high fps games...tthhhhrrpppt!!!



Hawgdog
06-26-2003, 07:36 PM
Samsung 192N, perfect settings, in cockpit 35-130fps depending on where I looked and what was blowing up in front of me...over cities mind you. Stinking incredible.
Walmart has 19" LCD's for way under 400.00
Rebate at compusa was 7hundredish.

Love it, and frankly the screen looks better than my CRT with .23 dot (vs. .29 dot)
Incredible. If you havent flown LCD, dont knock it, you have no idea. Its as radically different as Ti4200 vs. Radeon 9800 pro

<center></script>IDC
Completely disorganized,and coming to a base near you
When you get to hell, tell 'em Hawgdog sent you
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Hawgdog
06-26-2003, 07:36 PM
Samsung 192N, perfect settings, in cockpit 35-130fps depending on where I looked and what was blowing up in front of me...over cities mind you. Stinking incredible.
Walmart has 19" LCD's for way under 400.00
Rebate at compusa was 7hundredish.

Love it, and frankly the screen looks better than my CRT with .23 dot (vs. .29 dot)
Incredible. If you havent flown LCD, dont knock it, you have no idea. Its as radically different as Ti4200 vs. Radeon 9800 pro

<center></script>IDC
Completely disorganized,and coming to a base near you
When you get to hell, tell 'em Hawgdog sent you
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XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 08:03 PM
I just got a 17" LCD. I love that it takes up so little space and uses comparitively little energy, and after some tweaking with the gamma I've gotten a decent tone and color balance for the display (I used Photoshop's monitor calibration utility). Still, there's this inherant limitation where the low end blacks and dark gray/blacks all muddle together and become indistinguishable. In my experience the evening and night missions are almost unplayable they are so dark.

If I change the contrast and brightness to separate the darks better, the highlights get blown out. This makes clouds, snow, white markings and polished aluminum look terrible.

For the most part, I really like my LCD monitor and have been pleased with how it performs. CRT is better for tonal separation. I suppose a person can keep adjusting the brightness and contrast to meet the scene brightness of the mission, but that's kind of an annoyance, don't you agree?

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 08:28 PM
I recently bought a 17'LCD monitor and its just brilliant. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif There's no problems in night time missions in FB for me, the picture is crisp, the color is great.

One thing worth noting for if you're into getting 17" for FB: change your conf.ini's width and height to 1280 and 960, and also change SaveAspect=0 to 1.

I haven't encountered any probs with any other games yet. So far so good.
http://www.mitsubishi-electric.com.au/PRODUCTS/COMPP/tft/dv172.htm - this is the one im taling about. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Hawgdog
06-26-2003, 08:34 PM
JT_Skycat wrote:
there's this inherant limitation where the
- low end blacks and dark gray/blacks all muddle
- together and become indistinguishable. In my
- experience the evening and night missions are almost
- unplayable they are so dark.


Bummer, got me nervous, just ran a night mission. Didnt have to change anything, looked about like the old CRT 19" monitor did. Only, maybe a little of odd color between the spotlight and night sky, otherwise, looking goooooooood

<center></script>IDC
Completely disorganized,and coming to a base near you
When you get to hell, tell 'em Hawgdog sent you
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Hawgdog
06-26-2003, 08:36 PM
Mine has this "auto" button on the front of the panel, when running whatever application, tap the auto, does this little jig for about +-15 seconds and fixes it.
My web design software needs tweaked vs. FB- auto button so far seems easy enough, didnt read the manual, plug and play- added drivers from CD and went flying


<center></script>IDC
Completely disorganized,and coming to a base near you
When you get to hell, tell 'em Hawgdog sent you
http://users.adelphia.net/~hawgdog/assets/images/sharkdog.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 08:39 PM
My new .255 20 in dell monitor is just lovely. I think it is better than the 21in dell crt I had.

----------------------------------------
The pilots lounge was this place you could go to find some humor. Sure, there were some flame wars, but generally it was a good natured place to hang out for a laugh or two.

Then that whole war started in the middle east and a whole bunch of trolls and flag wavers showed up and really ruined the place. I thought it was necessary to close it at the time, but now I kinda miss it. UBI has decided not to re-open a new one so now we talk about vulching and pings.

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 08:52 PM
Hawgdog, respect to you my friend. but,

I would only buy a LCD screen if I had space shortage and only such a monitor would fit my bureau (fancy word for desk), for several reasons:

-)best LCD screens have (correct me if I'm wrong), lets say 20-25ms response time (the response time of the individual crystal). so there is definatly a frame-limitter in such hardware. getting 130fps on your FPS is by all means wonderful, but surely that high fps will never get displayed on your screen.

-)say what you can, but I find the general quality (of both high quality LCD and CRT screens, say Iiyama) of the CRT screen far better than any LCD screen. In my opinion, LCD screens only advantage is that thru them you can read text clearer (backlight).

again, I don't want to bash you, only want to give another POV /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 08:54 PM
I thought the early LCDs were crap, but the one I just got is damn good in my opinion. I don't know if it is as good as a expensive top notch CRT, but without direct comparison its hard for me to tell.

----------------------------------------
The pilots lounge was this place you could go to find some humor. Sure, there were some flame wars, but generally it was a good natured place to hang out for a laugh or two.

Then that whole war started in the middle east and a whole bunch of trolls and flag wavers showed up and really ruined the place. I thought it was necessary to close it at the time, but now I kinda miss it. UBI has decided not to re-open a new one so now we talk about vulching and pings.

Hawgdog
06-26-2003, 09:15 PM
Fresshness wrote:

--)best LCD screens have (correct me if I'm wrong), lets say 20-25ms response time

Sure, several are at 13-15.

I love other points of view. I had three CRT's in IL2- all were fine, This LCD is fine. Everythings fine.
Well, almost- in a few earlier posts the thoughts were LCD could not game at all. I'm simply pointing out LCD's have come a long, long way in the last few months. I found this last week searching, that if they DONT advertise the RS its at least 25, some are 50!!!! Those are also the cheapo's at Kmart, etc.
17's that excede gaming needs are around 500.00 Twice the cost of CRT's....and the cards we're running are at least three times the cost of what would "work" if'n it werent for IL2/FB no? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center></script>IDC
Completely disorganized,and coming to a base near you
When you get to hell, tell 'em Hawgdog sent you
http://users.adelphia.net/~hawgdog/assets/images/sharkdog.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 09:40 PM
My lcd is 16ms. I see no ghosting effects on games or movies. No fps change neither.

LCD's prices are starting to go down. My LCD is only 2 weeks old and it's already 10 bucks cheaper. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://jaih.optus.nu/img.php/mydesk3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 10:13 PM
The response time doesn't effect the fps rate at all. I have been using my TFT for over a year now and i had a great 17" Trinitron Natural Flat CRT. I jad absolutely no change in FSP rate, no ghosting no nothing but a better quality, colors and whatnot.
The best way to get rid of the "night effect" is to change ther gama value in the vieo cards control panel. Changing the brightness or gama of the TFT itself doesn't really change anything. You have to make these changes in the control panel, that way, you will get those black nights back!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">Come and see the brilliant light
don't let your emotions mask your sight
it's the manifestation of a deeper fight
that affects me and you
my optimism was running high
a new world order was on my mind
but I couldn't believe it when I heard them say
they're blowing it away

and the fertile cresent is burning today
and baby my emotions are too
the cradle of humanity has led us all astray
and we're all in this together don't you know
Ô┬┤cause our species has nowhere else to go </font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">Aggression rears it's ugly head
retaliation brings further dread
the two are linked by unseen threads
that wind back through time
I don't agree with this outdated trend
nationalism is an evil friend
but hatred is instilled by invisible lines
drawn in our minds

and the fertile cresent is haunting us today
and baby our instincts are too
the ghost of humanity is warning us this way
and i think we all should heed it don't you know
Ô┬┤cause we've got nowhere else to go </font></font></td></tr></table>

"Fertile Cresent" by Bad Religion

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 10:22 PM
Hawgdog wrote:
- Samsung 192N, perfect settings, in cockpit 35-130fps
- depending on where I looked and what was blowing up
- in front of me...over cities mind you. Stinking
- incredible.
- Walmart has 19" LCD's for way under 400.00
- Rebate at compusa was 7hundredish.
-
- Love it, and frankly the screen looks better than my
- CRT with .23 dot (vs. .29 dot)
- Incredible. If you havent flown LCD, dont knock it,
- you have no idea. Its as radically different as
- Ti4200 vs. Radeon 9800 pro

Um, dog...what it has to do with FPS? I take it you flying in DX mode, not OGL. There is no way in hell you`ll get 130 FPS in the cockpit in perfect settings unless you flying 640x480 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . I don`t buy it, no offence. Not flaming you by all means.
LCD`s are cool, but matter of personal preferences i say /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 07:50 AM
NOTE TO UNIBROW DORK:

A 20 MS responce is equivelent to a Frequency of 100 Hz. So an LCD flat panel that is a 1600x1200 native resolution w/ a low responce time like this will rock. Unlike your opinions. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



http://myweb.cableone.net/edmondsonm/P40Sig.JPG


[link:service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=926392|3DMark03 Score:5001] :bored: [Link:service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6637535|3DMark02 Score:12804] :bored: [link:service.futuremark.com/compare?pcm=1363255|PCMark02 Score:5075,4624,1120]

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 11:03 AM
ofcourse it does affect FPS (not on your machine, but your monitor will ignore those excess frames because there is simply no time to display them).

Let's make a simple calculation; how many times does 20ms fit in 1 second? If you do your math right it comes down to about 50times (50 times 20 ms is 1000 ms or 1 sec).

So, anything more than 50fps will be 'ignored' by your LCD screen simply because the crystals aren't fast enough to change color/whatever more than 50 times per second.

still, if you get 50fps all the time there is really no problem, cuz 50fps is pretty good.

But, 100fps is still better than 50fps (actually image is much more stable). and is noticable, maybe not by everyone, but it is noticable.

I'm glad you have fun with your new LCD screen dude! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Cpt.LoneRanger
06-27-2003, 12:37 PM
My god, what do you need a fast LCD-Display for in IL2?!?


It doesn't matter, how fast or slow the LCD is in FB. I played it on an old notebook with 35ms display and it worked fine.

The only thing you need a FAST LCD for, is when you have to display FAST moving objects.


For Ego-Shooters, a display with more than 25ms response time is a suicide-guarantee. When you make a 180 degree turn in less than half a second, as quite usuall with UT2k3, for example, you REALLY need that responsetime, or you will just see a wish-wash of some odd colours in horizontal stripes (tried it and died), but what the hell do you need this for in IL2?


greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

PS: 13-20ms is quite common for current active LCD displays.

Hawgdog
06-27-2003, 01:11 PM
crazyivan1970 wrote:
- Um, dog...what it has to do with FPS? I take it you
- flying in DX mode, not OGL. There is no way in hell
- you`ll get 130 FPS in the cockpit in perfect
. I don`t buy it, no offence.
- Not flaming you by all means.


For starters my good man, the main reason I and a few others stayed away from LCD's was the largely false thinking that they would display slide shows, wrong colors, trails etc. Wrong-if you dont own one or have not seen one play, you just dont know.
My post was a nudge to those able to spend the cash, if, thats what had been holding them back- this was certainly NOT a post to challenge those stuck to their CRT's
And as far as claiming I am unable to get 130 in cockpit you are amazing, just fall short of calling me a liar?
I play with some mods from here and tech heads from up on high my friend. How do you know what beta drivers I use, what components I have or how long or who has helped me tweak those goodies?
I look at the sky in my hurri, in cockpit,and in OpenGL I hit higher frames than that. If you dont believe it, fine.
By the way the res size is 1024x768x32


<center></script>IDC
Completely disorganized,and coming to a base near you
When you get to hell, tell 'em Hawgdog sent you
http://users.adelphia.net/~hawgdog/assets/images/sharkdog.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 01:20 PM
I have the Dell 20" LCD and I love it BUT...I have tried padlocking and zooming in on planes flying by me headon and cannot tell what kind of plane it is while they are passing me. I'm not sure if this is because of my monitor but I think it might be. I'm not lugging my other 21" POS tube back up from the basement to do a test.

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 01:30 PM
Fresshness wrote:
- ofcourse it does affect FPS (not on your machine,
- but your monitor will ignore those excess frames
- because there is simply no time to display them).

I think you are confusing response time with frame rate.

On the basis you suggest then if your frame rate
is better than your CRT refresh rate you are in
the same position.

A high frame rate basically means that when your
monitor is able to display a picture, then one
is almost certainly available, and the bottle neck
is the monitor refresh rate.

Reponse time simply indicates that it takes the
pizels a short time to turn off. This means that
in a fast moving scene it takes time for those
pixels that should no longer be lit with that
colour to change to the new colour. This is
what causes ghosting. If the 1/response time
is at least equal to twice the refresh rate
then there isn't too much to worry about - the
time it takes to change the colour is becoming
small compared to the times between screen refreshes
anyway, so there isn't much 'lag' (and also not
much ghosting).

- So, anything more than 50fps will be 'ignored' by
- your LCD screen simply because the crystals aren't
- fast enough to change color/whatever more than 50
- times per second.

Given that the refresh rates of these monitors is
greater than 50Hz, then by that logic they would
never display anything!

- still, if you get 50fps all the time there is really
- no problem, cuz 50fps is pretty good.

To offer the maximum performance (if vsync is on)
you want the fps to be around twice the refresh rate,
as this increases the chances of a fresh frame being
ready every time the monitor is ready for a new frame.
With vsync on there is a tendency to slow frame rates
as the frame is not displayed until the image is aready,
and the display adapter asks the video card to wait.

- But, 100fps is still better than 50fps (actually
- image is much more stable). and is noticable, maybe
- not by everyone, but it is noticable.

A refresh rate of 100Hz is good, as the eye can
detect flickering. The Department of Defense tests
suggests that there are really only adverse effects
on the ability to control a remotely piloted vehicle
when frame rates are below 30.

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 01:34 PM
BS!

I also played MoH for quite some time and i my response time is above 25ms. Why does everybody think, that ego shooters have "faster" moving objects than flightsims? A head on pass at max speed in IL2:FB will give you faster moving objects than this mud crawling in MoH. Beside that, the camera view has the same speed. The only "bad" effect i saw in MoH was this visual tearing but that's why we have the VSync feature. But i didn't know i at that time /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">Come and see the brilliant light
don't let your emotions mask your sight
it's the manifestation of a deeper fight
that affects me and you
my optimism was running high
a new world order was on my mind
but I couldn't believe it when I heard them say
they're blowing it away

and the fertile cresent is burning today
and baby my emotions are too
the cradle of humanity has led us all astray
and we're all in this together don't you know
Ô┬┤cause our species has nowhere else to go </font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">Aggression rears it's ugly head
retaliation brings further dread
the two are linked by unseen threads
that wind back through time
I don't agree with this outdated trend
nationalism is an evil friend
but hatred is instilled by invisible lines
drawn in our minds

and the fertile cresent is haunting us today
and baby our instincts are too
the ghost of humanity is warning us this way
and i think we all should heed it don't you know
Ô┬┤cause we've got nowhere else to go </font></font></td></tr></table>

"Fertile Cresent" by Bad Religion

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 01:44 PM
AaronGT, the only thing I can say is that I am not mixing up refresh rates and frames-per-second.

But it was kinda cute you think I did /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 01:53 PM
The average human is only able to see a difference in speed up to 37 fps. A big company (Sony?) once made a large scale test and found out that the minority of the people is also able to see a difference in speed up to 50fps. Everything above can't be recognized anymore. If the fps rate is too high, you have a boomerang effect. The higher the frame rate is, the slower the game/movie or whatever will appear (highspeed cameras). Although todays computer wont be able to display around 1000fps /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

Anyway, the human brain has some sort of a filter function and it is proven that we can't see a diffeence between 50 or 100fps! That's a fact. The human brain isn't even that fast when it comes to calculating informations. We have the feeling that everything happens in real time but there is a little delay in eerything.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">Come and see the brilliant light
don't let your emotions mask your sight
it's the manifestation of a deeper fight
that affects me and you
my optimism was running high
a new world order was on my mind
but I couldn't believe it when I heard them say
they're blowing it away

and the fertile cresent is burning today
and baby my emotions are too
the cradle of humanity has led us all astray
and we're all in this together don't you know
Ô┬┤cause our species has nowhere else to go </font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">Aggression rears it's ugly head
retaliation brings further dread
the two are linked by unseen threads
that wind back through time
I don't agree with this outdated trend
nationalism is an evil friend
but hatred is instilled by invisible lines
drawn in our minds

and the fertile cresent is haunting us today
and baby our instincts are too
the ghost of humanity is warning us this way
and i think we all should heed it don't you know
Ô┬┤cause we've got nowhere else to go </font></font></td></tr></table>

"Fertile Cresent" by Bad Religion

Cpt.LoneRanger
06-27-2003, 01:55 PM
Lo, well, MOHAA isn't really a FAST game.

You should make some differences between ego-shooters!

I played a lot UT and even UT2k3 on Notebooks - I had to for the last 4 weeks, since we were on a holiday and I couldn't be without a few fraggs so long http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The notebook(P4 2.8Ghz, GForceMobile, SuroundSound, etc) has a brilliant TFT. I played IL2 for a while, but it sucks without a joystick and that was without any problem.

I even played RavenShield and there was absolutely no Problem at all. Even the colours and contrast was good, in some respects even better than my old 19"-monitor.

But then I tried to play Ut2k3 and I usually play at masterfull. I had to turn the to novice because all I hit where their ghosts, as they rushed besides me. And the rockets? You just don't see them coming quickly enough - and don't tell me this was a framerate-problem, since I had 70fps+ with this machine!

Believe me, there IS a difference!

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

Hawgdog
06-27-2003, 02:05 PM
Whats an "ego-shooter"? LOL, hoping it aint me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
- Lo, well, MOHAA isn't really a FAST game.
-
- You should make some differences between
- ego-shooters!
-

<center></script>IDC
Completely disorganized,and coming to a base near you
When you get to hell, tell 'em Hawgdog sent you
http://users.adelphia.net/~hawgdog/assets/images/sharkdog.gif

Cpt.LoneRanger
06-27-2003, 02:12 PM
Hmmmm, there speaks the expert http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


an EGO-SHOOTER is not a name for anybody, but for games, that you play running around with the view of that virtual person you are.

So, all these run-around-kill-em-all games are called ego-shooters. And MOHAA is one of them, as well as RavenShield, UT (2k3), Quake, SplinterCell, etc.

OK?

So, that was really no offense =)

It's just, I play Ut2k3 nearly as much as IL2, so, I've got SOME experience in that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

(That's why I like the P39 - it's like running around with a sniper-rifle.....well, it was in IL2 and hopefully is soon again, when the patch comes out....)


greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 03:28 PM
Not about FPS. It's about quality. My experience is that LCDs look better generally than CRTs except in flight sims where I can see ghosting. When 18 inch plus LCDs have eliminated that then I'll buy one.

Gyre

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 03:34 PM
17" display here with more than 25ms and no ghosting in any game. Can't wait for my fresnel lense to arrive so i can look into a 25" screen /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">Come and see the brilliant light
don't let your emotions mask your sight
it's the manifestation of a deeper fight
that affects me and you
my optimism was running high
a new world order was on my mind
but I couldn't believe it when I heard them say
they're blowing it away

and the fertile cresent is burning today
and baby my emotions are too
the cradle of humanity has led us all astray
and we're all in this together don't you know
Ô┬┤cause our species has nowhere else to go </font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">Aggression rears it's ugly head
retaliation brings further dread
the two are linked by unseen threads
that wind back through time
I don't agree with this outdated trend
nationalism is an evil friend
but hatred is instilled by invisible lines
drawn in our minds

and the fertile cresent is haunting us today
and baby our instincts are too
the ghost of humanity is warning us this way
and i think we all should heed it don't you know
Ô┬┤cause we've got nowhere else to go </font></font></td></tr></table>

"Fertile Cresent" by Bad Religion

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 03:50 PM
Hmm....

OK folks, we seem to have three terms being bandied around here,

Frame Rate.
Response Time.
Refresh Rate.


Refresh Rate is the rate at which your monitor draws new pictures and really only applies to CRTs, not LCDs. A refresh rate of 100Hz means that your monitor will redraw whatever picture it is being fed 100 times a second. Note that this rate is determined by the characteristics of the signal being fed to it by the video card.

Response Time in the context of this discussion is the speed with which pixels in an LCD are capable of responding to a change in value. At a response time of 25ms a pixel is capable of responding to 40 changes of colour in one second. Anything higher than that and the pixel will tend to follow a 25ms moving average. This means that your monitor will only display forty frames per second.

This does NOT mean that your display will flicker horribly, since the light emitted from an LCD is provided by the backlight and not the glow of phosphor on a screen. This is critically important! With a CRT, the screen phosphor glows when illuminated by the electron beam, and starts to fade immediately after this has passed. Since CRT monitors are sometimes called upon to run at refresh rates of up to 125Hz (and higher in some applications!) the screen phosphor will typically fade in about 8-10msec.

If you are running at a refresh rate of 100 Hz on such a monitor, this means that each phosphor dot is being re-illuminated before it has completely faded and the picture is flicker free. If you are running at 60Hz, however, then the phosphor dot would be completely dark one-third of the time, and it is these periods of darkness that give rise to the flicker we see at lower refresh rates.


None of this has anything to do with frames per second, your "frame rate" which is the number of times your PCs video card is capable of recalculating the picture and placing it in video memory. If your card's frame rate falls to say 10 frames per second, and you are running at a refresh rate of 60Hz, this means that the monitor would display each individually calcualted picture 6 times before receiving a new image.


Now, in summary,

Flicker is caused by refresh rate, NOT frames per second.

Image Tear is caused by the video card redrawing the image halfway (or part way) through an image refresh on the screen.

Vertical Sync ensures that your video card only updates the image before it is drawn on screen, not during.

Frames per second is the rate at which your video card is capable of calculating the scene being rendered.

On LCDs, the response time is the time taken for a pixel to change colour (or more properly to change its transmissivity).

On LCDs, the response time is decoupled from the emission of light and therefore 40FPS on an LCD monitor running at 40FPS will look as smooth as a CRT monitor running at 80Hz and 80FPS.

See? Simple!

HTH

&lt;embed src="http://www.redhalibut.co.uk/webs/RedHalibut/images/flyboysig240603.swf" loop=true menu=false quality=high wmode=transparent bgcolor=#030303 WIDTH=400 HEIGHT=32 TYPE="application/x-shockwave-flash"></EMBED>

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 03:56 PM
Further reading:

Ability magazine discusses monitors (http://abilitymagazine.com/boone_monitor.html)

Mitsubishi explains monitors (http://www.bestbuy.com/ComputersPeripherals/Monitors/hr/hr5Mitsubishi.asp)

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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 05:00 PM
Hawgdog wrote:
-
- crazyivan1970 wrote:
-- Um, dog...what it has to do with FPS? I take it you
-- flying in DX mode, not OGL. There is no way in hell
-- you`ll get 130 FPS in the cockpit in perfect
- . I don`t buy it, no offence.
-- Not flaming you by all means.
-
-
- For starters my good man, the main reason I and a
- few others stayed away from LCD's was the largely
- false thinking that they would display slide shows,
- wrong colors, trails etc. Wrong-if you dont own one
- or have not seen one play, you just dont know.
- My post was a nudge to those able to spend the cash,
- if, thats what had been holding them back- this was
- certainly NOT a post to challenge those stuck to
- their CRT's
- And as far as claiming I am unable to get 130 in
- cockpit you are amazing, just fall short of calling
- me a liar?
-
- I play with some mods from here and tech heads from
- up on high my friend. How do you know what beta
- drivers I use, what components I have or how long or
- who has helped me tweak those goodies?
- I look at the sky in my hurri, in cockpit,and in
- OpenGL I hit higher frames than that. If you dont
- believe it, fine.
- By the way the res size is 1024x768x32
-
-

Ok, i appologize for my tone. But still...i`ll explain why. Recently friend of mine purchased top of the line Alienware rig, one with XP3200 and 9800 pro and all other cool stuff. 2500 bucks toy. I think Aliens are pretty good at tweking their systems and getting them up to speed. But even with that monster he was getting the highest of 95 FPS in FB on 1024x768x32 with 2AA 4AA Flying in the pit with perfect settings. Maybe i just just got fed up with people trowing out numbers and saying that they getting average of 60FPS in some XP1600 with GF2 card on perfect settings. Sorry if i offended you mate...kinda got out of me.
When i buld my rig and used all the hunter`s best advices in tweaking, beta sound and display drivers that he shared with me i do get frustrated when someone claims really high numbers.
Here`s the deal:
XP2800 Barton on A7N8X Deluxe with 1GB of PC2700 Corsair XMS and ATI9700 PRO, SB Audilgy XGamer, Other stuff are not important.
With 2AA, 4AF on perfect settings 1024x768x32 i get about 38fps flying 50m off the water, it drops to 32 over large towns of forests...and from there higher i get, better FPS...the highest was about 120, if i look up, but in forward view without pointing nose up no higher then 85.
Once again, i did not mean to offend you dog(kinda went overboard anyways) but i find hard to believe that you will get 130FPS on the straight flight looking forward.
my appologies, again.

V!

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

Hawgdog
06-27-2003, 05:40 PM
crazyivan1970 wrote:

Dont sweat it. A ~S~ to you. This stupid internet, mostly this forum seems to breed the defensive or prosecutoral
Anyhow, I took some screenies and as soon as I can post them I'll stick them up. They are drop dead gorgeous, razor sharp lines, and the fps meter is showing 148 looking at the horizon. They were online as well.
The vid card is a hacked ATI 9700 pro that bears little resemblance to what you see in the catalog.
I rolled the wing port side away from the sun in a I-153. Splendid.
And I'm sure I spend too much time screwing around with this dang thing. Sorry if I wore my pride too thinly.
Alot of help from Hunter82, SteveV and one other http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif to get here. I shudder when I think of the $$ and time I pour into this game.
Again, Salute-

<center></script>IDC
Completely disorganized,and coming to a base near you
When you get to hell, tell 'em Hawgdog sent you
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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 07:49 PM
Over Christmas I bought a 19" LCD... loved it no flicker, and really good fps as well on everything I ran on it, much better than my crt.

Well I very recently had an offer I could not refuse, a friend of mine (who is an electronics wholesaler) was getting ready to return his "demo" machines to the dealers, when he was told by one that he could keep the equiptment for himself (as long as he did not sell them... atleast through his business).

I am now running a 32" plasma tv/monitor.... ahh is it nice.

Ok now let the rants begin on plasma. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Hawgdog
06-27-2003, 08:38 PM
LWulffe_CR wrote:

- I am now running a 32" plasma tv/monitor.... ahh is
- it nice.



May you bend your prop every time you take off and shear off at least one wheel on landing! ;0

<center></script>IDC
Completely disorganized,and coming to a base near you
When you get to hell, tell 'em Hawgdog sent you
http://users.adelphia.net/~hawgdog/assets/images/sharkdog.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 08:41 PM
How much does such a thing cost on retail..36000 ? How much did you pay your buddy for it, if you don't mind me asking?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">Come and see the brilliant light
don't let your emotions mask your sight
it's the manifestation of a deeper fight
that affects me and you
my optimism was running high
a new world order was on my mind
but I couldn't believe it when I heard them say
they're blowing it away

and the fertile cresent is burning today
and baby my emotions are too
the cradle of humanity has led us all astray
and we're all in this together don't you know
Ô┬┤cause our species has nowhere else to go </font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">Aggression rears it's ugly head
retaliation brings further dread
the two are linked by unseen threads
that wind back through time
I don't agree with this outdated trend
nationalism is an evil friend
but hatred is instilled by invisible lines
drawn in our minds

and the fertile cresent is haunting us today
and baby our instincts are too
the ghost of humanity is warning us this way
and i think we all should heed it don't you know
Ô┬┤cause we've got nowhere else to go </font></font></td></tr></table>

"Fertile Cresent" by Bad Religion

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 10:38 PM
I find it odd that LCD owners are not simply content with what they have but rather they have this habit of justifying their purchase all over the usenet and in web forums etc. Anyone else notice this?

IMO, if you like your LCD then good for you. Most of us can't afford one and / or our CRTs are working just fine.

Some people just think too much and / or have more dollars than cents and lots of time on their hands I guess.

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 10:41 PM
I said it before and i`ll say it again, its a matter of personal preferences.

V!

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 10:42 PM
Sliceback wrote:
- NOTE TO UNIBROW DORK:
-
- A 20 MS responce is equivelent to a Frequency of 100
- Hz. So an LCD flat panel that is a 1600x1200 native
- resolution w/ a low responce time like this will
- rock. Unlike your opinions. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

He was asking about FPS not Hz frequency. What part of "FPS" did you not understand?

Hawgdog
06-27-2003, 11:21 PM
GonzoX wrote:
- I find it odd that LCD owners are not simply content
- with what they have but rather they have this habit
- of justifying their purchase all over the usenet and
- in web forums etc.


I find it odd that some make statements with such a broad brush.
Sorry you cant afford the best, this was a thread for those who can. LCD's are not that expensive and do add to MY enjoyment of the game. Bottom line, someone posts about something to improve my game, I'm reading about it. I cant justify liquid cooled PC now, but its on the horizon sport. Just like next wave vid cards and 800mhz P4 processors- I'm reading now in prep for that day.

toodles

<center></script>IDC
Completely disorganized,and coming to a base near you
When you get to hell, tell 'em Hawgdog sent you
http://users.adelphia.net/~hawgdog/assets/images/sharkdog.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-28-2003, 01:41 AM
Err..If I may jump in here and ask a question...

Hawg, what brand of LCD?

I've been considering one, as my 21" Sony CRT is slowing burning out...

Looking at 19" LCD in the 500-600$ range by companies I never heard of...and at "Pricewatch" I've not seen a LCD under $500.

Walmart you say? who wudda thunk..

XyZspineZyX
06-28-2003, 09:22 AM
LOL @ Hawgdog I will think of you everytime that I do that now.

For VF2 John Banks: This model retailed for 3900.00 US ( I am in Canada) but I picked it up for 300.00 CDN as I have known this guy for almost 22 years, and he just wanted a token sum to appease his beechy wife of 2 years with whom I have never gotten along with. lol

Besides.. he did not need it (the tv or the cash) he took the other 2 demo plasmas home for himself (a 60" and a 42")

This guy has almost every conceivable electronic gadget or gizmo and 90% of it was given to him. Oh the humanity.

Salut├ę from LWulffe_CR
Member of The Lone Wulffe Squadron
http://www.LoneWulffe.com
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/226423/IL2Sig2.jpg

Edit: hmm have to shorten that pic... sorry

Message Edited on 06/28/0301:23AM by LWulffe_CR

XyZspineZyX
06-28-2003, 11:15 AM
Geez, 3900$ for such a big plasma display is nothing. here in Germany i saw a plasma display which had only 18,1" and it cost more than 8000 Euros.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">Come and see the brilliant light
don't let your emotions mask your sight
it's the manifestation of a deeper fight
that affects me and you
my optimism was running high
a new world order was on my mind
but I couldn't believe it when I heard them say
they're blowing it away

and the fertile cresent is burning today
and baby my emotions are too
the cradle of humanity has led us all astray
and we're all in this together don't you know
Ô┬┤cause our species has nowhere else to go </font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">Aggression rears it's ugly head
retaliation brings further dread
the two are linked by unseen threads
that wind back through time
I don't agree with this outdated trend
nationalism is an evil friend
but hatred is instilled by invisible lines
drawn in our minds

and the fertile cresent is haunting us today
and baby our instincts are too
the ghost of humanity is warning us this way
and i think we all should heed it don't you know
Ô┬┤cause we've got nowhere else to go </font></font></td></tr></table>

"Fertile Cresent" by Bad Religion

Hawgdog
06-28-2003, 01:14 PM
R-Airfoil wrote:
- Err..If I may jump in here and ask a question...
-
- Hawg, what brand of LCD?
-
-
- I've been considering one, as my 21" Sony CRT is
- slowing burning out...

This one is a Samsung 192n

Look at http://www.provantage.com/buy-6617MONL-17-lcd-displays-shopping.htm in 17" its the buyers oyster. I think for the money, the 18" range is great. Provision is rated high.
I found this page http://pcworld.shopping.yahoo.com/yahoo/article/0,aid,108510,00.asp rating the various brands.

<center></script>IDC
Completely disorganized,and coming to a base near you
When you get to hell, tell 'em Hawgdog sent you
http://users.adelphia.net/~hawgdog/assets/images/sharkdog.gif