PDA

View Full Version : Finished The Lost Archive - Discussion? [SPOILERS]



Nomad86x
02-29-2012, 05:28 AM
I thought, for those who would be interested, it would be nice to post a thread about anyone's thoughts about what we learned in the DLC, or didn't learn, depending on who you are.

Personally - the "Lucy" revelation was huge for me, because I thought three was more to it than what we found out.

But the literal enactment of the Loop, The End is the Beginning - for me it reminds me of the frequently inserted (moreso than the others at least) "Lorenz Attractor" glyph.

But what else is there in the DLC that intrigued you? Or didn't?

MaKaVeLiTL
02-29-2012, 06:15 AM
Possibly the worst, most pointless and most boring DLC ever released. I hope everyone boycotts it. I decided to watch it on youtube instead of buying it, not paying money for something which probably took them a few days to make with little effort. And what it reveals could have and should have been explained when the game was released. ACR should have been named "Assassins Creed: Revelations (but you'll have to wait another 3 months and pay extra money for any real revelations)"

PS well done for listening to the fans yet again Ubi, everyone loved that first person crap and couldn't wait for more!

DavisP92
02-29-2012, 06:43 AM
Possibly the worst, most pointless and most boring DLC ever released. I hope everyone boycotts it. I decided to watch it on youtube instead of buying it, not paying money for something which probably took them a few days to make with little effort. And what it reveals could have and should have been explained when the game was released. ACR should have been named "Assassins Creed: Revelations (but you'll have to wait another 3 months and pay extra money for any real revelations)"

PS well done for listening to the fans yet again Ubi, everyone loved that first person crap and couldn't wait for more!

where did you watch the dlc? i've been looking but i haven't seen it yet.

ac4ev
02-29-2012, 06:48 AM
where did you watch the dlc? i've been looking but i haven't seen it yet.

its on youtube
and yea this was a huge thing which should have been included in the game but instead they waste space with the multiplayer and desmond mission crap

twenty_glyphs
02-29-2012, 08:10 AM
I thought the DLC was kind of boring as well, though it was still somewhat interesting. At least it provided some of the mystique of mystery that Revelations itself was missing. It looks like we've found at least 3 secret messages so far, and there may be more (possibly one in each memory?).

But it still feels rather lazy when it comes to storytelling. The fact that it isn't incorporated into the game and just sits there in its own menu with no explanation just feels really lazy. Coupled with the fact that Desmond is in the Animus at the end of Revelations with no story explanation, it feels lazy compared to the rest of the series. The last two games at least had one line of dialogue that perfectly explained why Desmond was still in the Animus at the end. I'm still not even sure what exactly I just played in The Lost Archive. Was I Desmond viewing Subject 16's memories? Was I the Clay Kaczmarek Construct reliving his own memories?

There were some interesting things to come out of the new content. Subject 16's backstory was pretty good, and it showed that the Assassins and Templars are a little more cunning than we have seen in the modern day.

Lucy being a traitor is not a surprise at this point, and I'm glad they addressed it, but I wish they had foreshadowed it a little more instead of having it come completely out of left field. I guess perhaps they did, it was just very subtle. I still think she wasn't evil, she was just on the Templars' side. She still tried to protect Subject 16 and probably did feel bad about his death. She may have been having a change of heart in Brotherhood. One of the emails from William Miles to her in that game makes it sound like she's trying to get out of having Desmond recover the Apple, perhaps because she doesn't want to turn him back over to the Templars.

Either way, the DLC gives clarity to the last Chess puzzle in Brotherhood, where it says that every move has been accounted for and that it's the company's game. Desmond stabbing Lucy was the act of taking his king off the chess board and refusing to play by Abstergo's rules.

I guess the most interesting part of the DLC is that Juno contacted Subject 16 somehow and told him to help Desmond, which he eventually agreed to. I also noticed that the loading screen when you load The Lost Archive says "Fragmented Memory Located: Clay Kaczmarek" followed by "October 10, 2012". That's the day that Desmond met Juno and stabbed Lucy, 72 days before the moment of awakening. As for Juno's comment that they all must suffer as they did, I doubt it means she's evil. She could want the Templars to suffer, or perhaps humanity will have to suffer in order to gain knowledge — "he who increaseth knowledge also increaseth sorrow."

I also found it interesting that Adam's voice in Memory 5 was not Nolan North or Desmond. That gives something to think about in regards to the theory that the voice that says "Eve..." in The Truth video is Desmond and not Adam.

There were also some quotes at the end of Memory 4 that were interesting:


Italian Female: Dai nemici mi guardo io, dagli amici mi guardi Iddio
(God watch me among friends, that I may watch myself among enemies.)

La Fontaine: Rien ne pese rant qu'un secret.
(Nothing weighs on us so heavily as a secret.)

The Italian quote likely refers to Lucy, and who knows if more of La Fontaine's (famous French poet of the 1600s) writings will show up in a future game...

LightRey
02-29-2012, 09:06 AM
"They must all suffer as we suffered" - Juno

Who are "they" and for that matter who are "we" exactly?

masterfenix2009
02-29-2012, 10:16 AM
Oh, besides the fact it had the most cliche and boring plot twist ever, it was okay with gameplay and SOME backstory.

Zrvan
02-29-2012, 10:24 AM
I LOVE this dlc. Some actual revelations, for once. Learning Clay's backstory was a delight even if it was a little disjointed in the middle. I'm a little upset that he's far more likable than Desmond at this point, but Que sera. I love the puzzles and collectibles, didn't get everything on the first try but I usually felt like I was awesome when I got the solutions.

I still think there is reasonable doubt re: Lucy. That part happened on a stage, might have been staged for Clay's benefit. Either way, water under the bridge now.

I am left with questions, of course - how did Juno contact Clay? Through memories, as Minerva and Jupiter did, or directly, as with Brotherhood?

Also, I would like to say extra especial thanks for the Styx section and really all of the final sequence. That was awesome.

SDGR Blaze
02-29-2012, 01:27 PM
I didn't get the ending. In memory 7 u cross the river Styx which is in hell and then ur in this bright beautiful place which I think is heaven. So how do u cross Styx and get to heaven? Then the loop happens which I think Is like a limbo thing. Then when u break the loop clay writes a letter to his dad. I didn't get that. I still liked the dlc though.

Nomad86x
02-29-2012, 03:09 PM
I didn't get the ending. In memory 7 u cross the river Styx which is in hell and then ur in this bright beautiful place which I think is heaven. So how do u cross Styx and get to heaven? Then the loop happens which I think Is like a limbo thing. Then when u break the loop clay writes a letter to his dad. I didn't get that. I still liked the dlc though.

That's the bit I find most interesting is this loop analogy and I feel that there's something in that last sequence - his death(with the blood on the walls), the river Styx, and that mountain coupled with the falling cinematic - right before we reach that last gate...

But I go back to the Lorenz Attractor (& loop) again and again for me, because it appears over and over - please someone tell me I'm not just seeing it more because I'm just noticing it more than the others - it just shows up again and again in my mind - and that's a major plot hint - this DLC only reinforced it.
-As a glyph - it makes a number of appearances
-In the Brotherhood (#9/#10) glyph/message - it's revealed at the end of one of the puzzles
-On the door of the Vault in Brotherhood, when you use Eagle Vision as Desmond


But it still feels rather lazy when it comes to storytelling. The fact that it isn't incorporated into the game and just sits there in its own menu with no explanation just feels really lazy. Coupled with the fact that Desmond is in the Animus at the end of Revelations with no story explanation, it feels lazy compared to the rest of the series. The last two games at least had one line of dialogue that perfectly explained why Desmond was still in the Animus at the end. I'm still not even sure what exactly I just played in The Lost Archive. Was I Desmond viewing Subject 16's memories? Was I the Clay Kaczmarek Construct reliving his own memories?

That was the other portion that really perplexed me, because I could have sworn this DLC would use the two gates on Animus Island, and tie a bow on the singleplayer in that regard. It makes me wonder, is this just "looping" in some database somewhere, is it archived in the Animus and we're accessing it? Or is it Desmond accessing it as well? (Didn't seem so, we never heard any of his)

For me it's interesting because excluding this DLC - every other "revelation" we've had in this series we have experienced analogous to the main characters . . so this just raises a question for me - were they lazy? Or is this bonus insight? (I kinda doubt it and resent that idea, just because the thing I liked about the plot is that the characters discovered things as we did, we never had a moment of "Yea I knew that" - When Desmond says "What the ****?!" - I say what the ****?!) Was this portrayal intentional?

And of course there's the surprise that Juno contacted Clay - that's really interesting..

All in all, I loved this DLC, I know most people probably hated the whole Desmond Journey segments for various reasons, but those were probably my favorite.
Everyone seems to give really miffed about the fact that none of the original writers/creators are still around - but they've stated that the main head honcho who started with Assassin's Creed - essentially who guides the story - is still around - he just isn't with the company anymore if I recall - but he's still there, guiding the plot and the story - But also I think some of us feel the mystique of AC ebbing away simply because we're now seeing the big picture of the plot - whereas that mysterious "wtf" feeling doesn't happen at the end of ACI anymore, because we're just like..."Yea..we know..."

zerocooll21
02-29-2012, 04:47 PM
Either way, the DLC gives clarity to the last Chess puzzle in Brotherhood, where it says that every move has been accounted for and that it's the company's game. Desmond stabbing Lucy was the act of taking his king off the chess board and refusing to play by Abstergo's rules.

I guess the most interesting part of the DLC is that Juno contacted Subject 16 somehow and told him to help Desmond, which he eventually agreed to. I also noticed that the loading screen when you load The Lost Archive says "Fragmented Memory Located: Clay Kaczmarek" followed by "October 10, 2012". That's the day that Desmond met Juno and stabbed Lucy, 72 days before the moment of awakening. As for Juno's comment that they all must suffer as they did, I doubt it means she's evil. She could want the Templars to suffer, or perhaps humanity will have to suffer in order to gain knowledge — "he who increaseth knowledge also increaseth sorrow."



Good Stuff man :)

stefman6987
02-29-2012, 08:59 PM
It was ok, a bit anti climactic, i didn't really understand the relevance of clay writing the letter to his dad once you broke the loop.. What really interested me was on the loading screen it said "10th of october 2012"... clay died on august 8th... lucy was stabbed on that day aswell, maybe when desmond went into a coma, the archives were activated, that way desmond could see the truth about 16... but the problem with that theory is that we don't know from who's point of view where seeing it from :\ i think ubisoft messed up a tiny bit on this dlc.. but overall i liked it. wasn't any revelations though considering i saw the leaked audio -.-

oh and in memory 6 i found this code on a wall - "Oxfb, vkh lv dOzdbv ehklqg Brx" anyone else see this? i have no idea what it means :\

ShaneO7K
02-29-2012, 09:05 PM
It was ok, a bit anti climactic, i didn't really understand the relevance of clay writing the letter to his dad once you broke the loop.. What really interested me was on the loading screen it said "10th of october 2012"... clay died on august 8th... lucy was stabbed on that day aswell, maybe when desmond went into a coma, the archives were activated, that way desmond could see the truth about 16... but the problem with that theory is that we don't know from who's point of view where seeing it from :\ i think ubisoft messed up a tiny bit on this dlc.. but overall i liked it. wasn't any revelations though considering i saw the leaked audio -.-

oh and in memory 6 i found this code on a wall - "Oxfb, vkh lv dOzdbv ehklqg Brx" anyone else see this? i have no idea what it means :\

I thinks it says "Lucy, she is always behind you." and all the captial letters together say "LILY" I think.
For each letter you go back 3 letters.

Xandar11
02-29-2012, 09:14 PM
There was also a bit of braille during memory 5. It read "Truth is constructed from Lies" when sorted out. And I think dead_gunner187 is right, though I have no idea what it could mean by it... Anyone else find something off about Clay's mothers message? Something hidden perhaps?

Guess I will add all that I found through it... The greek letter Theta, which stands for the earth, was on one of the pillars in memory 5 as well. During Clay's freak out and the repeated rooms, The Gettysburg address is playing, along with a line from Fontaine: Nothing weighs so heavily on us as a secret, and a line in Italian: I can watch my enemy, so God watch my friends.

I thought the DLC is amazing, might explain alot if we can actually figure it out... I loved the first person part, it added an entire new area of immersion, which is something I enjoy about Assassin's Creed.

twenty_glyphs
02-29-2012, 09:20 PM
After thinking about it some more, it seems like the memories may have been from Clay's perspective. When he's sending the email to his dad after breaking the loop, you see "root access construct 'Clay Kaczmarek'" on the screen before a password is entered and the console says "Operation successful." The phrase "construct" makes me think that the Clay simulation that Desmond meets inside the Animus is what's going through the memories and the loop. It seems his simulation finally breaks the loop and then sends the email to his dad from within the Animus.

Perhaps The Lost Archive is the fragmented memories of Clay Kaczmarek that he broke apart and hid inside the Animus before he killed himself. Perhaps the Animus is saying that it located a fragmented memory on October 10, 2012. So maybe the canonical date that Desmond unlocked The Truth in Brotherhood was the same day that he discovered where the Apple was hidden, 10/10/2012. Perhaps executing the Truth file let Desmond meet Subject 16, who may not have been "whole" yet because he hadn't fully assimilated all his memories yet. Maybe Clay then got stuck in his own memory loop until he broke out, said goodbye to his dad, and went on to help Desmond in Revelations.

VacuusDeus
02-29-2012, 09:23 PM
It was ok, a bit anti climactic, i didn't really understand the relevance of clay writing the letter to his dad once you broke the loop.. What really interested me was on the loading screen it said "10th of october 2012"... clay died on august 8th... lucy was stabbed on that day aswell, maybe when desmond went into a coma, the archives were activated, that way desmond could see the truth about 16... but the problem with that theory is that we don't know from who's point of view where seeing it from :\ i think ubisoft messed up a tiny bit on this dlc.. but overall i liked it. wasn't any revelations though considering i saw the leaked audio -.-


I interpreted it as Clay looking back on his life, the way Desmond did in the main game. For my my hangup is when does LA take place? 10.10.12 is when Desmond entered his coma but Juno telling Clay to help Desmond seems like it places it after Revelations because Clay really hasn't helped Desmond all that much. His writings in the Animus room were nonsense to everyone but Clay, as were the Truth Files and Clusters.

Also the animus states in sequence 7 that "Clay Kaczmarek construct quarantined". So yeah, for me at least, I'm most curious when LA takes place.

Also, there are still two unused arches on Animus Island. I thought this DLC would fix that so maybe more SP DLC on the way?

zerocooll21
02-29-2012, 09:27 PM
After thinking about it some more, it seems like the memories may have been from Clay's perspective. When he's sending the email to his dad after breaking the loop, you see "root access construct 'Clay Kaczmarek'" on the screen before a password is entered and the console says "Operation successful." The phrase "construct" makes me think that the Clay simulation that Desmond meets inside the Animus is what's going through the memories and the loop. It seems his simulation finally breaks the loop and then sends the email to his dad from within the Animus.

Perhaps The Lost Archive is the fragmented memories of Clay Kaczmarek that he broke apart and hid inside the Animus before he killed himself. Perhaps the Animus is saying that it located a fragmented memory on October 10, 2012. So maybe the canonical date that Desmond unlocked The Truth in Brotherhood was the same day that he discovered where the Apple was hidden, 10/10/2012. Perhaps executing the Truth file let Desmond meet Subject 16, who may not have been "whole" yet because he hadn't fully assimilated all his memories yet. Maybe Clay then got stuck in his own memory loop until he broke out, said goodbye to his dad, and went on to help Desmond in Revelations.

YES. S16 did say he had do reconstruct his own fragmented memories to Desmond.

I just noticed something. I wanted to see the that loading screen again for the Lost Archive so I went back to the main menu and there was another loading screen like the one you see when Desmond gets yanked back to the black room. Any meaning?

twenty_glyphs
02-29-2012, 09:32 PM
YES. S16 did say he had do the same thing to Desmond.

I just noticed something. I wanted to see the that loading screen again for the Lost Archive so I went back to the main menu and there was another loading screen like the one you see when Desmond gets yanked back to the black room. Any meaning?

I think the loading screen when leaving The Lost Archive may be the same one that loads when Desmond finishes a Desmond's Journey mission. It may be saying that it's loading Desmond again, giving more evidence that The Lost Archive is played from Subject 16's perspective.

zerocooll21
02-29-2012, 09:36 PM
Gotcha, thanks.

dAnNyKiLlZ
02-29-2012, 11:13 PM
Looking back at AC2 when "Subject 16" tries to warn Desmond I recall him saying that we've been lied to this whole time. everything we know and everything we were bought up to believe, is wrong.. If he is speaking about the assassin order, did Lucy brainwash him or something?

NVM I THINK HE WAS SPEAKING ABOUT THE WORLD AND HOW ABSTERGO IS CONTROLLING THE WORLD.. TOO CONFUSING LOL SORRY.

Apirka
02-29-2012, 11:48 PM
I made notes while playing through it again. This is a bit tl;dr, so I bolded the stuff I think is especially important; there's also some random thoughts, character stuff and symbolism there that I'll leave in in case anyone is interested in that as well.

“Abstergo has experimented through their Animus project on 17 known est subjects. This is the story of Subject 16.” I can't be the only one who finds this intro odd, right?

Animus Island not only looks differently, but is already part of the this simulation instead of the normal Animus simulation. Hmm. And the gate is where the gate to Ezio's memories would be... And different from the Desmond gates.

And we start out grey! And with laughing. There's quite a bit of laughing later as well, I think. At least some of it reminds me of ACII and Brotherhood Clay... Is that audio taken from there? (Though why would they do that?)

William gives us orders and the colour turns on when we reach the funeral. I assume the prayer has to do with it being, well, a funeral, but does anyone know it? And if this is supposed to be like Desmond's Journey, why does apparently dead Clay remember his funeral? At least with the loop it makes somewhat sense to have that at the beginning.

Jumping in the grave gets the “You got hurt” effect (or however you would call it), but without the blocks we can't do anything about it. Colour is gone again.

“The End is only the Beginning” - Clay's funeral and in his grave we get child Clay talking.

Walking into the light and hearing those... heart beat measuring things from hospitals.

Birds. Appear later as well.

Dead end, only going back lets you proceed.

William again and we get the blocks, while the grey ones disappear. Clay doesn't need them any more because he has gotten stronger? (They're everywhere during “The Bleeding Effect”... but that's also where we break the loop.)

The stairs from memory seven (The loop?)

and then we get weird noises. And some mentor figure like advice.

“Knowledge grows only through challenge” in a room with a giant cross of light. Incidentally, I am reminded of Tadao Ando's Church of Light. The way the walls look – with the holes in the concrete – is rather Ando as well, though they are a bit too exact.

Harold is being an idiot and then William talks about obstacles. Not quite convinced they have something to do with each other, though it's a nice contrast between the two.

The first way shown leads right into one of those fields, keeping you out of the induction room. It's only accessible by going back and past more obstacles.

Room with the window from memory seven.

I wonder if there's anything concerning the red and blue blocks you can't touch – why different colours?

That last decipher fragment is evil.


[B]So Clay was already good enough to break into Abstergo and then get out? Must be an Assassin genius.

Room with the hole in the roof from mem 7.

Laughter again when you get to the first lasers. (I hate this room.)

The blocks become useless a lot throughout this level, and then there's the room when the grey ones show up, before you get the jump block. Hmm.

“Search for key cartographer ancestral DNA ongoing.” …?

Alarm goes off and Clay pulls a daring escape? Clearly, Abstergo is pretty **** bad at security.

“I'm counting on your help, Clay.” Assassin genius, I tell you.

“Ability deactivated.” I wonder why.

Sudden flashback of doom and daddy being a jerk. Looks a bit like a prison? (Bars on the doors.) That's a nice touch.

And we get to the psychiatrist. Who's also a jerk. Interestingly, Clay continued the therapy a few months after starting to work with the Assassins. And he apparently only met them in 2007. Since a later memory says Vidic experimented on him for over a year, he must have infiltrated Abstergo during 2011 at least. The memo says January 2008, so depending on how new it is, he already broke into Abstergo after what may be less than a year of training.


“Lucy Stillman. I know you're out there.” That's an odd line.

The first path you see in the big room where the grey blocks... block the hole in the ground is protected by one of those fields.

“His readings aren't normal, Miss Stillman.” - “Are you there, Clay? Remember, stick to the mission.” The way Clay says “Lucy” is odd.

The ability is deactivated just as what I assume is the bleeding effect starts. (The room with the three voices.)


Lots of grey blocks and the whole environment looks completely different.

“Remember. In Eden.” Juno, you speak in odd ways.

Birds again.

The letter from Mom is odd – the mistakes seem to start only when she mentions alcohol.

“I... No. Not me. I refuse!” - “Go forth, with eyes opened to all but the truth.” Clay is their sacrifice? Which truth?


“Ability activated.” And drugs. I hate Vidic.

Obvious way is blocked again.

The unreachable gate.

Over a year of experiments but only now he gets into the mainframe?

Over a year and after the bleeding effect gets bad, but still thinks of leaving. (“Remember, stick to the mission.”...)

The truth is shown differently to pretty much everything else, almost as a sort of cutscene. Then there's the stage... I'm not saying Lucy isn't a Templar, but it stands out somewhat.

Then there's “I'm trapped”, the picture shows a door and that door actually appears. And what is Clay's way of escaping? The suicide?


“The End of the Line” - “The Loop”

Why are we outside?

“Your eyes are now open.” So it was The Truth about Lucy? And Clay answers. “I will.”

“They must all suffer as we suffered.” This is odd, but we all noticed that.

Lucy's letter is so full of contradictions. “You of all people should understand.” But it's Abstergo and her who run the experiments on him, not William. The secret message here is the only one in plain view, from what I've noticed, since collecting the letter practically forces you to look at it and the letter itself is just where you need to go.

The glyphs. How can AI!Clay remember them perfectly, though? Even the spelling mistake of Quetzalcoatl's name? In his database entry he says he doesn't remember the actual suicide since he was made a day prior.

“Ability activated.” Why here?

The noises at River Styx D: Why Ubisoft, why.

In the room after the third fragment there's laughing again.

How does Clay know of that call? Was that just before infiltrating Abstergo?

The break the loop gate without the bridge.

The birds again during the falling cutscene.

There's no dialogue when breaking the loop accept repeating “Your eyes are now open. Help Desmond Miles.” - “I will.”

How can AI!Clay send his Dad a message? And I think the first sentence is important, even if just seems like a character thing. (“Don't worry about me. I've found my place and my purpose. There is another I must help along the same path.”) He sounds surprisingly calm -- even calmer than in ACR.

EvolutionIXMR
03-01-2012, 05:05 AM
This DLC is utter garbage.
For someone who has followed AC since about a year before the first game came out, I must say that it has definitely fallen from grace, Brotherhood being it's peak.
Revelations brought lots of stupid little unnecessary things(ex. den defense, bombs, etc) to the series. Not to mention Ubisoft seems to be devoting 80% of their effort into multiplayer which is sickening at times. Also, the ever-expanding AC-universe might seem like a great idea to some, but IMO it's only watering down the series/story. Think Star Wars.
Since finishing Revelations, I don't even think i've posted here since. Just left a bad taste in my mouth you could say. This DLC though, is just complete nonsense. $9.99...I wouldn't of paid 1/10 of that for it. The whole time I was hoping for it to just end already. I mean, are people REALLY asking for this portal-like gameplay from AC enough to base an entire DLC on it? C'mon.
I honestly can't believe I just paid for that. Next DLC aught to be free as an apology-like gesture from Ubisoft to it's fans.

Nomad86x
03-01-2012, 05:12 AM
Excellent Analysis Apirka!

And something you brought up that I was stuck on during the DLC, but moved past and forgot entirely:


“Search for key cartographer ancestral DNA ongoing.” …?

I want to say this is Desmond - but then if it is - what is the signification of "Key Cartographer" tite

Does it refer to Altair's knowledge - The Eagle Vision Map on the Codex - aka - the projection we saw at the end of ACI, showing the Vault/PoE locations, or does it refer to Ezio in some manner? (Doubtful, as Clay was already a descendent)

But all in all a lot of great observations Apirka! Plenty for us to muddle over - I would not be surprised that there is lot more plot significance in this DLC than we notice at a glance from this first few run-throughs

As for my thoughts on the "Breaking the Loop" - My interpretation is that it's Clay/his consciousness contacting his father through the Animus, as we have "broken the loop" - meaning he has broken from the cycle (And I keep coming back to this notion of the cycle and the loop - namely WHAT IS THE CYCLE? - is it life? The struggle? The conflict spanning generations? That's why I'm personally fascinated with the chunk of Memory 7 after you pass through the blood paintings and move on to the River Styx and all the way through to the point that the cycle restarts - I think there's something huge there) But back to the message - The question for me is was his consciousness playing in a loop until that day when Desmond entered the coma? Was it mere coincidence or was it triggered by something substantial that happened?

At least I think this is what happened in a way - The glyphs from ACII - were pre-recorded - namely S16/Clay was almost making research notes and had compiled the Truth as a file to be read - not interfaced with. (But that raises a further question - did he witness "The Truth" from ACII analogous to being contacted by Juno??) Or was it before? After? But then the glyphs in Brotherhood - that i think was partially an active attempt by S16 to get out - because if anyone remembers "Compiling subsystems - tendons, lungs heart, Voice" ad when it says voice - it changes from that AI woman's voice to S16's voice - and during the later glyphs - the intro to them has the AI woman's voice saying things like "Who Am I?" or "Is anyone there? Hello?" And so during this time - he's in the loop but also trying to break away - and some points succeeds (all this happening in the Animus) and the S16 we meet in Revelations has finished this rebirth and death cycle and "broke the loop" and all that information he may or may not still have - but he still knows his mission - and that he does NOT want to be in the animus anymore.

But I'm starting to ramble - Another question that's eating away at me now - Juno's contact with Subject 16 - and how much did he really witness from Primordial Adam's perspective?

Also, I'm sure there's a huge amount of information that he found out that we still don't know - because the Memory Sequence where he is in Abstergo as a Test Subject - in that we just travel through his process of interfacing with the memories and hacking the mainframe at Abstergo - we don't discover what he discovered - for all we know - there was a **** ton of information that he discovered that we still don't know - so one more question now -

DId the information he discovered while the Bleeding Effect was taking place and he discovered more and more from memories and his private Animus sessions - did that die away when he Broke the Loop - therefore producing a much more calm and relaxed Clay whom we meet in ACR? Is it still locked away in fragments in the Animus's databanks? Because I'm sure still information that has yet to be revelaed to us that he discovered - but that's just me LOL - I'll stop now :rolleyes:

Nomad86x
03-01-2012, 05:25 AM
I definitely understand your position - but here's the way I see it - Brotherhood and Revelations didn't really add much to the gameplay - A) Because they didn't need to - why fix it if it ain't broke? B) The goal of both games was to advance the plot principally

Even with this game series' excellent gameplay that consistently keeps me entertained (although not as challenging as it's first iteration :mad: the true merit in AC is it's plot - and that's why I loved ACB and ACR ( in other words AC2.33 and AC2.66) This DLC and the Desmond Journey segments weren't about gameplay, they were about plot development - almost as simplified and yet accessible cinematics - ones that could contain more than first meets the eye.

I definitely can relate to your feeling that as the plot is expanded and the scope of the AC Universe grows - and we learn much more than we did when we started - it definitely takes away from that original mystique - that weird spine-chilling feeling that you got from the Glyphs or ACII Puzzles - that you didn't know what was going on, and only got glimpses into the unknown - but at the same time - that's inevitable - the mystique will diminish but it will never completely go away.

I also take solace in the fact that the original fellas who really thought up Assassin's Creed haven't divorced themselves from the project and the series - they still do oversee what's happening - so it's not like the storyline is being tarnished in my mind - it just feels that way as we learn more because the original attraction for me was in that weird sense of foreshadowing into the unknown - where you were given all these clues but had no clue what the **** they meant. That feeling is fun, exciting, and intriguing - but it can't be sustained at the same level indefinitely - at least not if you want the plot to advance. If you want to keep that same feeling - then stop playing altogether - so as to avoid learn more about the AC Universe and diminish mystical wonder of "WTF will happen next?"

That's just my two cents though - feel free to tell me to **** off :o

jmk1999
03-01-2012, 11:17 AM
i just finished... i'm not all the fond of it being strictly the memory puzzles, but it was quite intriguing to finally get some closure on why lucy is killed... still, i'm kinda bummed out that they went the route of making her a templar. i know we all speculated this since brotherhood, but i really wanted to feel like perhaps i was wrong. sadly, they opted for what everyone was expecting. i really liked lucy so i think it was sort of a cheap thing to do to her character... especially since she basically says in her second letter to clay that she was going to kill him... something we all thought was an accident brought on by vidic's forcing her to keep him in the animus. sure, that played a part in it obviously, but her sincerity seemed quite lacking, regardless of her potential regret for doing it. oh well, i guess we'll see where it goes from here.

on another note, it sorta makes me wonder if william knew lucy was a templar after she was killed... it might bring an interesting point of view to his question about if her and desmond were close.

also, it would have been nice to unlock something after completing it... like perhaps a clay skin for single player.

stefman6987
03-01-2012, 12:57 PM
There's stlll so many unanswered questions, alright i'll make list!

what really got me was at the start it said the date was "october the 12th 2012" the day lucy was stabbed and the day desmond fell into a coma, 16 died in august. So this questions whether or not where viewing it from desmond's or clay's pov, but maybe 16 planned it? maybe that's what juno was telling him.. on this day this will happen and blah blah, so 16 planned when to initiate the "lost archive files" but yet again that doesn't add up because of the fact that when where on animus island, it's a different animus island, it's the same as the desmond's journey trailer, so maybe it is desmond's pov (i'm just speculating feel free to correct me).

Onto what juno said to clay.. i thought this dlc was going to show us why 16 wrote those glyphs on the walls. what he knows is going to happen, for example in ACB truth he sais "it is far later then you know it, everything you hold dear, is already gone... the sun... your SON"... "find eve,,. in eden... her DNA" ok this hole bit just makes me angry to know we didn't find out wtf he was talking bout in the lost archive, there has to be some meaning towards all of it, juno told and showed clay "remember in eden/eve (can't remember what she said)" theres a big chunk of info where missing, where clay was shown the truth of what's going to happen to the world, bout lucy, about eden eve and such.

one of the codes i the second memory i believe when decrypted spells "clay created adam, adam created Clay" this is a biblical reference where it states that god created adam from clay and adam then created Clay kazmareck, implying clay is a descendant of adam. Now some point while in the animus 16 would have relived adam's memories, how else would he know the truth from ac2.. what i also want to point out is how was juno talking to clay directly? if anyone asks me... this is very very confusing...

oh and the code in mem 6, "lucy, she is always behind you" thoughts on this people?

OH ONE LAST THING READ THIS... THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT ASWELL
remember in acb, erudito??? they sent an email to desmond sayig "make sure you stay in the loop" is desmond going crazy? and you had to break the loop to regain conciousness with 16, and as for breaking the loop, very anti climatic indeed..

Smoak-Wolf
03-01-2012, 01:18 PM
I thought that the loop was showing us how subject 16 was traped in the animus, constantly living through this tourture of trying to escape.Its the only way he he could live inside the animus and it would have slowly made him crazy...well thats what I got out of it! lolz

stefman6987
03-01-2012, 01:29 PM
Yeah that's what it is, and when broke the loop he ragained his sanity.. hence why he was so calm when desmond met him. i just thought it was strange how erudito said "make sure you stay in the loop"

Apirka
03-01-2012, 03:08 PM
Excellent Analysis Apirka!

Thank you :D


I want to say this is Desmond - but then if it is - what is the signification of "Key Cartographer" tite

Does it refer to Altair's knowledge - The Eagle Vision Map on the Codex - aka - the projection we saw at the end of ACI, showing the Vault/PoE locations, or does it refer to Ezio in some manner? (Doubtful, as Clay was already a descendent)

Clay being a descendant doesn't necessarily mean it can't be Ezio -- the memo is written in January 2008 and Clay finds it when he breaks into Abstergo. It is only after the Assassin's gain access to that information that William decides to send Clay in as a test subject.


But all in all a lot of great observations Apirka! Plenty for us to muddle over - I would not be surprised that there is lot more plot significance in this DLC than we notice at a glance from this first few run-throughs

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if we're still missing quite a lot. The way this is set up mgives them plenty of chance to give clues through symbolism, one of the reasons why I love the "first person platformer crap". (And that as someone who adores cutscenes. I do play Metal Gear after all ;))



As for my thoughts on the "Breaking the Loop" - My interpretation is that it's Clay/his consciousness contacting his father through the Animus, as we have "broken the loop" - meaning he has broken from the cycle (And I keep coming back to this notion of the cycle and the loop - namely WHAT IS THE CYCLE? - is it life? The struggle? The conflict spanning generations? That's why I'm personally fascinated with the chunk of Memory 7 after you pass through the blood paintings and move on to the River Styx and all the way through to the point that the cycle restarts - I think there's something huge there) But back to the message - The question for me is was his consciousness playing in a loop until that day when Desmond entered the coma? Was it mere coincidence or was it triggered by something substantial that happened?

What I realized is -- we break the loop during The Bleeding Effect. I think there's significance to that, as well as the missing dialogue and repeating those two lines from the start of The End of the Line. Not only that -- the gate there is not the only one we can't access (at least at first). There's also the last gate, the one we can never each before the loop starts again. What is behind that one? And what is the significance of the "heaven" section? Throughout the other memories, we are frequently treated to images of it -- the staircase, the room with the window, the hole in the ceiling and the last gate. It may be a way to signify the loop -- but they start during memory two, not one, and and go all the way up to memory 6. It's certainly curious.


At least I think this is what happened in a way - The glyphs from ACII - were pre-recorded - namely S16/Clay was almost making research notes and had compiled the Truth as a file to be read - not interfaced with. (But that raises a further question - did he witness "The Truth" from ACII analogous to being contacted by Juno??) Or was it before? After? But then the glyphs in Brotherhood - that i think was partially an active attempt by S16 to get out - because if anyone remembers "Compiling subsystems - tendons, lungs heart, Voice" ad when it says voice - it changes from that AI woman's voice to S16's voice - and during the later glyphs - the intro to them has the AI woman's voice saying things like "Who Am I?" or "Is anyone there? Hello?" And so during this time - he's in the loop but also trying to break away - and some points succeeds (all this happening in the Animus) and the S16 we meet in Revelations has finished this rebirth and death cycle and "broke the loop" and all that information he may or may not still have - but he still knows his mission - and that he does NOT want to be in the animus anymore.

I had though that this was due to the AI being broken into parts that were only loaded after a puzzle was solved, slowly putting it back together. So when Animus voice is confused and anguished, it's because AI Clay is incomplete because Desmond hasn't put him back together yet. I think he says something about Desmond doing that in his database entry.

It may very well have to do with the loop, but I don't know. I think there might be more to the loop than that; I'm not sure though and you may very well be right.


But I'm starting to ramble - Another question that's eating away at me now - Juno's contact with Subject 16 - and how much did he really witness from Primordial Adam's perspective?

That's interesting to know. Also, Juno says "Eyes opened to all but the truth." The ACII video is called The Truth, memory 6 (finding out about Lucy? there's him hacking into the main frame, but the Lucy scene is certainly shown as being incredibly important with its representation) is also called The Truth. In memory seven Juno tells Clay that his eyes are now open -- so he seems to know the truth that they were previously closed to. Juno is the one that has Lucy stabbed. Is there more to it than her being a Templar? How does Juno know all these details?


Also, I'm sure there's a huge amount of information that he found out that we still don't know - because the Memory Sequence where he is in Abstergo as a Test Subject - in that we just travel through his process of interfacing with the memories and hacking the mainframe at Abstergo - we don't discover what he discovered - for all we know - there was a **** ton of information that he discovered that we still don't know - so one more question now -

I wonder how much significance he himself gave to it and I wonder why he was still sane then. He hacks into the mainframe, he finds out what Vidic wants -- we are reminded of the satellite -- and he says they can get out now. Then he finds out about Lucy, knows he's trapped and must get out. Memory 7 starts and "Help Desmond Miles." - "I will." which is in stark contrast to the end of 5: “I... No. Not me. I refuse!” (Incidentally, his refusal is in mem 5, then when breaking the loop, his willingness to do as Juno says is once again shown, in this same memory.)


Did the information he discovered while the Bleeding Effect was taking place and he discovered more and more from memories and his private Animus sessions - did that die away when he Broke the Loop - therefore producing a much more calm and relaxed Clay whom we meet in ACR? Is it still locked away in fragments in the Animus's databanks? Because I'm sure still information that has yet to be revealed to us that he discovered - but that's just me LOL - I'll stop now :rolleyes:

I think it should be noted that the loop is broken at the end of memory 5, after you have to go through the whole thing again. It's The Truth and The End of the Line he doesn't repeat. I also am not sure how much of AIClay's calm would come from that. He's certainly still crazed (I refer you to the scene were he's on the ground and wonders if he could get a new body, and we occasionally see glimpses of it during his other conversations with Desmond).

What exactly is behind the decipher fragments though? What are they and why can they break the loop?


There's stlll so many unanswered questions, alright i'll make list!

what really got me was at the start it said the date was "october the 12th 2012" the day lucy was stabbed and the day desmond fell into a coma, 16 died in august. So this questions whether or not where viewing it from desmond's or clay's pov, but maybe 16 planned it? maybe that's what juno was telling him.. on this day this will happen and blah blah, so 16 planned when to initiate the "lost archive files" but yet again that doesn't add up because of the fact that when where on animus island, it's a different animus island, it's the same as the desmond's journey trailer, so maybe it is desmond's pov (i'm just speculating feel free to correct me).

I don't think it is Desmond's pov, especially since this would mean he would do this before Revelations. Besides, it makes no sense to not tie this into the game if it is from his pov -- I can't think of any answer to this though. I'm pretty sure there is something important about this date.


Onto what juno said to clay.. i thought this dlc was going to show us why 16 wrote those glyphs on the walls. what he knows is going to happen, for example in ACB truth he sais "it is far later then you know it, everything you hold dear, is already gone... the sun... your SON"... "find eve,,. in eden... her DNA" ok this hole bit just makes me angry to know we didn't find out wtf he was talking bout in the lost archive, there has to be some meaning towards all of it, juno told and showed clay "remember in eden/eve (can't remember what she said)" theres a big chunk of info where missing, where clay was shown the truth of what's going to happen to the world, bout lucy, about eden eve and such.

She says "Remember. In Eden." I've no idea what exactly is going on here either, though


OH ONE LAST THING READ THIS... THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT ASWELL
remember in acb, erudito??? they sent an email to desmond sayig "make sure you stay in the loop" is desmond going crazy? and you had to break the loop to regain conciousness with 16, and as for breaking the loop, very anti climatic indeed..

This is odd. And why I certainly thought that breaking the loop was anticlimactic as well at first, I think there might be more to that e-mail then we can see right now. ("There is another I must help along the same path." when you break the loop, while here Desmond is told to stay in the loop?)

LightRey
03-01-2012, 03:13 PM
"Stay in the loop" is more likely referring to him staying aware of everything that's going on. I doubt it has anything to do with the loop in the DLC.

zerocooll21
03-01-2012, 04:11 PM
She says "Remember. In Eden." I've no idea what exactly is going on here either, though


"Remember. In Eden" is most likely just a reference to Clay needing to remember the events of the The Truth video in Eden.

Apirka
03-01-2012, 04:26 PM
Looking at it again (Thank you, EscoBlades, by the way), the scene goes:

Juno: Clay Kaczmarek. I , who was once called Juno, have come to show you the way. Remember. In Eden.

He walks for a about 10 seconds, there are birds that fly away when he comes near.

Adam: Eve, what is this device?

Eve: Touch, Adam, and you will know.

It may very well be the case that she's referring to Adam and Eve.

stefman6987
03-01-2012, 04:49 PM
i think the hole juno thing is vital and will be very imortant in ac3, 16 hasn't really shown desmond anything yet that will help him save the world. that moment that is referred to by clay in ACB truth video, juno twice now must be really important... i just want to know what it is already :\ i wander how there going to implement lucy's betrayal into ac3.. it is a big thing in the ac story line, and i hope 16 has a bigger role in ac3.. seems kinda strange to just kill him off even tho he hasn't done anything. As for erudito's email, i still find it strange.

it would be strange if it was from 16 pov, how would he have talked directly to juno? the archive was activated on the 10/10/2012... there has to be some purpose behind it... ac3 is going to have an even bigger revelation to be honest, well hopefully

SleezeRocker
03-01-2012, 05:06 PM
Jumping in the grave gets the “hurt” effect (or however you would call it), but without the blocks we can't do anything about it. Colour is gone again.

“The End is only the Beginning” - Clay's funeral and in his grave we get child Clay talking.

To die is to Live; In Clay's (subject 16) death, he was"reborned/alive/renaissance (lol)" to help Desmond eventually leading to The Island in ACR?
That's sort of how I see it, can't explain it any better though ;)

Im still missing some dam glyph pieces but all in all, I thought it was ok. Not the best thing, but not too bad either for me. theb iggest revelation for me was that Lucy was more on the Templar side, that made me say "Ah dam...why?".

Also the River of Styx and then jumping into Elysium(Heaven/Paradise) was kind of crazy too (somewhat made me think of Silent Hill for some strange reason) and then doing that big-ace Leap of faith (Hmm...'Leap' of 'Faith'???) eagle dive into memory 1 lol

In greek mythos was river of styx really going TO 'Hell"/Tartarus or was it a form of purgatory? Can't remember

Apirka
03-01-2012, 05:12 PM
How can it be from Desmond's, though? If it's the date he fell into the coma, he would be trying to get his synch nexus. Besides, he never mentions it during the story and clearly just went straight from killing Lucy and falling into the coma to walking up on Animus Island. There's also the fact that he narrated his own memories, while the person going through Clay's is suspiciously silent the entire time.

On the other hand, AI!Clay would have been busy with guiding Desmond/distracting the Animus... I keep wondering about the glyphs. I don't think they use the text based ones in ACII, though I might misremember things, which begs the question that even if he knew before creating the AI what he would write on the walls -- likely, the database entry says original!Clay thought about his suicide a lot before creating the AI -- why would the AI know original!Clay misspelled Quetzalcoatl? Unless there's some significance to it... or these aren't AI!Clay's memories.


To die is to Live; In Clay's (subject 16) death, he was"reborned/alive/renaissance (lol)" to help Desmond eventually leading to The Island in ACR?
That's sort of how I see it, can't explain it any better though ;)

Im still missing some dam glyph pieces but all in all, I thought it was ok. Not the best thing, but not too bad either for me. theb iggest revelation for me was that Lucy was more on the Templar side, that made me say "Ah dam...why?".

Also the River of Styx and then jumping into Elysium(Heaven/Paradise) was kind of crazy too (somewhat made me think of Silent Hill for some strange reason) and then doing that big-ace Leap of faith (Hmm...'Leap' of 'Faith'???) eagle dive into memory 1 lol

In greek mythos was river of styx really going TO 'Hell"/Tartarus or was it a form of purgatory? Can't remember

It's all very interesting imagery; I think I'm going to stop being lazy and read up on Styx. But I'm not sure if what we saw in ACR was all Clay was tld to do. Certainly, he saved Desmond from the Animus, thereby helping hm (and presumably being deleted and killed, explaining his freak out towards the end of The Bleeding Effect.)

And what glyphs...? Do you mean those codes/hidden symbols or the decipher fragments? There's a video on youtube for the latter; it's how I did it yesterday after I jumped into lasers like 50 times hearing a fragment that wasn't there.

SleezeRocker
03-01-2012, 05:23 PM
And what glyphs...? Do you mean those codes/hidden symbols or the decipher fragments? There's a video on youtube for the latter; it's how I did it yesterday after I jumped into lasers like 50 times hearing a fragment that wasn't there.


Ah decipher fragments yes! Im missing like 3 and you say you died in lasers 50x w/o a fragment? I htink I had that same problem yesterday....lol
Nah seriously there are time i can "hear" the glinting sound on the ciphers but then turns out it was just those golden data stream 'windows' :/

stefman6987
03-01-2012, 05:25 PM
How can it be from Desmond's, though? If it's the date he fell into the coma, he would be trying to get his synch nexus. Besides, he never mentions it during the story and clearly just went straight from killing Lucy and falling into the coma to walking up on Animus Island. There's also the fact that he narrated his own memories, while the person going through Clay's is suspiciously silent the entire time.

On the other hand, AI!Clay would have been busy with guiding Desmond/distracting the Animus... I keep wondering about the glyphs. I don't think they use the text based ones in ACII, though I might misremember things, which begs the question that even if he knew before creating the AI what he would write on the walls -- likely, the database entry says original!Clay thought about his suicide a lot before creating the AI -- why would the AI know original!Clay misspelled Quetzalcoatl? Unless there's some significance to it... or these aren't AI!Clay's memories..

what's this quote to quetzalcoati i haven't heard it :\ well either way it's really strange because this huge revelation of lucy being a traitor needs to be implemented into the ac3 story, i don't think they will just forget that lucy even existed, shaun and rebecca at this moment think she's still an assassin ( not sure about william ) well remember the quote "i have seen, what has been, what will be" he knew about 2012 and must have already knew about the glyphs. so what point that AI clay remember up to? maybe where just viewing the clay's memories as a complete non existent person, maybe it's just showing us what hppened and isn't based on who's pov it's from.

Apirka
03-01-2012, 05:41 PM
Ah decipher fragments yes! Im missing like 3 and you say you died in lasers 50x w/o a fragment? I htink I had that same problem yesterday....lol
Nah seriously there are time i can "hear" the glinting sound on the ciphers but then turns out it was just those golden data stream 'windows' :/

You know that part in memory four, where you're drifting upwards and have to change sides to dodge the lasers? Must have been the window, yes. I spent ages there, trying to find the fragment only to finally find that video and seeing that there was none :|


what's this quote to quetzalcoati i haven't heard it :\ well either way it's really strange because this huge revelation of lucy being a traitor needs to be implemented into the ac3 story, i don't think they will just forget that lucy even existed, shaun and rebecca at this moment think she's still an assassin ( not sure about william ) well remember the quote "i have seen, what has been, what will be" he knew about 2012 and must have already knew about the glyphs. so what point that AI clay remember up to? maybe where just viewing the clay's memories as a complete non existent person, maybe it's just showing us what hppened and isn't based on who's pov it's from.

"Within Emperor Jiajing's sin and Quetzcoaltz's hunger lies the Answers."

And I am sure they'll find a way to incooperate Lucy into the main story. I also think it is strange that they haven't tied The Lost Archives into the story and hope it really isn't just for our benefit but that there are story related reasons for doing it this way.

SleezeRocker
03-01-2012, 05:54 PM
@Apirka
Yeah lol
I'll have to check out youtube one these days to get the other ciphers (m kind of too lazy to look it up right now since im playing a NEW game on skyrim....since my last Skyrim file got corrupted T_T)

stefman6987
03-01-2012, 05:54 PM
"Within Emperor Jiajing's sin and Quetzcoaltz's hunger lies the Answers."

And I am sure they'll find a way to incooperate Lucy into the main story. I also think it is strange that they haven't tied The Lost Archives into the story and hope it really isn't just for our benefit but that there are story related reasons for doing it this way.[/QUOTE]

where was this quote mentioned? was it on one of the ac2 glyphs?

yeah i hope so, they probably will, how will desmond know of lucy's death while being in a coma if he didn't see 16's memories (even though it's not from his pov), either way how would he even know? maybe william knows everything, maybe 16 told him when he had access to the animus, i don't know but i want to know!! :D

stefman6987
03-01-2012, 05:57 PM
just on a note of my post about the important events of adam and eve and juno and that... in ac1 vidic sais in an email that 16 experienced a very important event which could have led him to go insane, hence something happened in eden, hopefully we find out in ac3 :)

Apirka
03-01-2012, 06:12 PM
where was this quote mentioned? was it on one of the ac2 glyphs?

yeah i hope so, they probably will, how will desmond know of lucy's death while being in a coma if he didn't see 16's memories (even though it's not from his pov), either way how would he even know? maybe william knows everything, maybe 16 told him when he had access to the animus, i don't know but i want to know!! :D

It was in AC 1 over Desmond's bed.

I'm not sure yet, but William didn't sound like he knew. I'm sort of hoping that Clay's role isn't finished quite yet.


just on a note of my post about the important events of adam and eve and juno and that... in ac1 vidic sais in an email that 16 experienced a very important event which could have led him to go insane, hence something happened in eden, hopefully we find out in ac3 :)

It was Session 12 when The Truth was recorded, which seems relatively early -- and Clay was sane enough to get into the mainframe and think of getting out of Abstergo after over a year of experiments according to Lost Archive's The Truth (memory 6), which was after the bleeding effect got bad (memory 5 along with Juno's first appearance in the DLC and the short bit of dialogue between Adam and Eve).

Moultonborough
03-01-2012, 06:57 PM
Anyone find the last Fragment in memory 6 and the last of memory 7? It sounds like there might be one in the "theatre" room once it starts to close on you but I cant find it. Thanks.

WhiteSheWolf
03-01-2012, 07:09 PM
So, I also found a set of numbers in one of the later memories:

"53686520 6F T5 6C6420 6861 766520
6C65 6420 442061 7761 7920
66 726F 6D20 T46865 207061 T468"

Anyone else see this/have any idea what code it could be?

Apirka
03-01-2012, 07:10 PM
There's none in the theatre room but I refer you to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=315A10qNGBQ

Xandar11
03-01-2012, 10:09 PM
I haven't seen the numbers that you found White, could you tell me where they are? Also, the points about the significance of it ending at the Bleeding Effect... a few thoughts occur. One, the bleeding effect is the learning of knowledge and skills from someone in the past... maybe this is a reference to Clay breaking out and passing on the knowledge to Desmond? Two, since the bleeding effect comes before The Truth, perhaps Juno means to stay blind to "The Truth", since she says to "Keep your eyes open to All But the Truth." The repeated Dialogue about his eyes being open might be him accepting his fate, and to not pass on that Lucy was a templar. I'm reminded of the opening to Revelations when Clay mentions to Desmond that Lucy is dead, Desmond remembers, and Clay says "Sorry, I thought you knew..." Maybe he means more than just that Lucy is dead.

Anyone think of anything on the Theta symbol or the braille message in chapter 5? It translated to "The Truth is constructed from lies." Also the odd text of the mother's email, or the bit of french and italian during the repeating rooms?

Apirka
03-01-2012, 10:31 PM
I haven't seen the numbers that you found White, could you tell me where they are? Also, the points about the significance of it ending at the Bleeding Effect... a few thoughts occur. One, the bleeding effect is the learning of knowledge and skills from someone in the past... maybe this is a reference to Clay breaking out and passing on the knowledge to Desmond? Two, since the bleeding effect comes before The Truth, perhaps Juno means to stay blind to "The Truth", since she says to "Keep your eyes open to All But the Truth." The repeated Dialogue about his eyes being open might be him accepting his fate, and to not pass on that Lucy was a templar. I'm reminded of the opening to Revelations when Clay mentions to Desmond that Lucy is dead, Desmond remembers, and Clay says "Sorry, I thought you knew..." Maybe he means more than just that Lucy is dead.

Anyone think of anything on the Theta symbol or the braille message in chapter 5? It translated to "The Truth is constructed from lies." Also the odd text of the mother's email, or the bit of french and italian during the repeating rooms?

Actually, she says, “Go forth, with eyes opened to all but the truth.” then later says, “Your eyes are now open. Help Desmond Miles.” The fact that "Your eyes are now open." is repeated before breaking the loop makes me think that is important to help Desmond -- after all, Clay can't leave before learning the truth, since you need to go through The Truth and The End of the Line before you can break the loop. He also only agrees after his eyes are open -- during The Bleeding Effect he freaks and shouts, “I... No. Not me. I refuse!” and then, after The Truth, answers "I will.", again before breaking the loop and then writes, "I've found my place and my purpose. There is another I must help along the same path.”.

I do wonder though if more than just what has happened to him up to now prompted his initial refusal. Did she tell him he would have to kill himself or was there more to it than that?

The French is from La Fontaine and something like "Nothing weighs heavier on us than a secret." and the Italian apparently "May god watch me among friends so I can watch myself among enemies or something like that. Someone else translated it somewhere... I don't know if there's anything to it, though both sound like there might be a hidden meaning, while maybe Lincoln's sentence is supposed to throw us of that notion? Admittedly, I at first assumed it was simply the bleeding effect starting since IIRC Clay has an ancestor who fought in the battle of Gettysburg.

Eziolala
03-01-2012, 10:56 PM
When I first played through, I thought the ending was Clay falling to the Tiber Riber, as the newspaper that's on a chair at the funeral said "Body found in Tiber river, suicide suspected." Though I don't know why he'd be seeing it or falling from the sky. It seems that it's just part of the loop. I did like the whole loop thing.

Apirka
03-01-2012, 11:03 PM
When I first played through, I thought the ending was Clay falling to the Tiber Riber, as the newspaper that's on a chair at the funeral said "Body found in Tiber river, suicide suspected." Though I don't know why he'd be seeing it or falling from the sky. It seems that it's just part of the loop. I did like the whole loop thing.

...I never saw that D: I can't go and replay right now (and had wanted to take a break anyway), does it say any more than that? (...Stupid Clay and his pretty face distracted me <.< That has to be it, hmph.)

CanterburyTales
03-01-2012, 11:12 PM
Here's something I don't get: at the end of AC 1, Vidic and three of his superiors agree to "dispose" of Desmond as they no longer believe he is of any use to them, but Lucy then tells them that there's probably more to that they could learn from Desmond; in Lost Archive, however, Vidic's plan all along was for Lucy to take Desmond away and help Lucy find Ezio's Apple of Eden for Abstergo.

SixKeys
03-01-2012, 11:21 PM
Here's something I don't get: at the end of AC 1, Vidic and three of his superiors agree to "dispose" of Desmond as they no longer believe he is of any use to them, but Lucy then tells them that there's probably more to that they could learn from Desmond; in Lost Archive, however, Vidic's plan all along was for Lucy to take Desmond away and help Lucy find Ezio's Apple of Eden for Abstergo.

She had to act convincingly, remember? Vidic was probably fully aware of what she was planning to do after they got to Desmond's final memory and simply played along when she persuaded his superiors to let Desmond live.

Apirka
03-01-2012, 11:37 PM
Or the whole thing was staged from the beginning on, just to make Desmond trust Lucy.

WhiteSheWolf
03-01-2012, 11:43 PM
I haven't seen the numbers that you found White, could you tell me where they are?

I don't remember the exact memory, but the numbers were written on a wall behind one of the letters, and the letter was in a corner. I might go back through and try to find them again later.

samward
03-02-2012, 11:09 PM
So let me see if I get this right. This is what I think happened in the DLC and please tell me if I am on the right track or if I have this all wrong. :D



Clay has dad issues and they get to him to the point he has to go to a counselor, who is under the influence of Abstergo (possibly the medical company mentioned in the Drs notes?)




Clay is approached by William and made into an Assassin and his issues from before go away.




Clay is sent on a mission to be captured by Abstergo and to become a test subject, his team is William working from the outside and Lucy (who has been groomed for the job and has been living outside of the Assassins for some years) who is suppose to get him out when the job is done.




Clays mission is to hack the computer system and animus to figure out what Abstergo’s plans to use the animus for and what they are looking for.




While Clay is trying to figure this out he forms some sort of relationship with Lucy because of the note where she says, “thanks for the kind words”




Clay is put into the Animus where either by design or by chance he overhears rumors of the “Apple” from some random Italian guy in the past.




This conversation Clay overhears about the apple lets Vidic know they are on the right path and makes Clay aware that Abstergo’s plans involve something much bigger then maybe he first realized.




Going back into the animus Clay overhears another conversation about Ezio and how he is supposedly the Assassin that holds the apple.




Vidic takes this information and does some research and finds out that Desmond has the perfect genetic tree to help them locate the apple through Ezio.




At the same time at some point while Clay has been in the animus he enters the Eden memory from AC2. I suspect that it is during this memory that Juno speaks with Clay. Probably the same way that Minerva speaks to Desmond through Ezio. At any rate I am guessing the memory is much bigger then what we see in the AC2 truth video and because of what Clay sees and hears from Juno (probably also much more then we hear in the memories) he understands “what will be and what has been” Some one on here suggested that Juno may have told him he had to die in order to save Desmond and that is why he did not want to do it at first. (I think this is a good possibility because there really is no other reason he should not want to help him, after all he has never he even met Desmond). At any rate Juno tells Clay he must help Desmond and after she opens his eyes to the truth, (something I think we did not get to see) he agrees to help Desmond.




It is my guess that after this is when he starts to leave the voice notes of his findings about Abstergo (the ones Desmond finds in AC2) in the animus and probably around the same time stumbles over the video footage of Vidic talking to Lucy about the importance of the Desmond and how she is to take him out of the lab and gain his trust so she can bring the Apple back.


*** I pause here to say that in AC1 when she talks to Desmond about her work and how Abstergo found her and how Vidic saved her life, that is occurs to me that one or two things could be happening there. Either the story was a lie to make Desmond think she was sharing personal things about her self in order that he would trust her. OR maybe she went into Abstergo on the Assassins side and then Vidic figured out she was a mole and he was the one who held her at gun point and told her she could either die or come work for the Templars and she picked to work for the Templars… just a thought….



I suppose Lucy figured out that Clay had seen her conversation with Vidic, probably from reviewing the items he accessed during the night.




She then writes to Clay and tell him she cant let him leave Abstergo now and that she is sorry.




It is my guess that it is at this point that he knows he is never getting out and that he really is going to die at Abstergo.




Knowing he still needs to help Desmond, he does the only thing he knows left to do. He uses his engineering skills to hack into the animus and scan himself in. Hoping that the AI form of himself will be able to tell Desmond what he knows.




He then goes around the lab and paints all the symbols in blood to leave clues and hints to Desmond to the truth he is suppose to leave behind to help Desmond; and the dies.




I guess at that point Abstergo hides his death by dumping him into the Tiber river…. Not sure about that one…


**** Still not sure how Clay would know how Abstergo would hide his death…



This leaving just the AI version of himself behind to interact with Desmond. But it would appear that the animus has an issue constructing the AI version of Clay though and while constructing his AI persona it gets stuck on just a few select attributes/ memories of who he is and loops through these preventing his AI getting to Desmond.




Now this is just a guess, but I have been wondering over and over gain why he would have to kill himself in the animus. The only thought I have is maybe when he “kills” himself that allows him to break free from the loop for just a few mins before it resets and that is when he is able to come to Desmond in Brotherhood. This would make sense why he seems so fixated on getting to the “suicide” point (with flashes in the other memories.) Perhaps he does not know when he and Desmond will be in a place where he can meet him and he is eager to get to the part of the loop where can break through as he is afraid he will miss his chance?




Then Desmond goes into a coma and the Clay AI finally puts together the pieces to break out of the loop it got stuck in, by sending the letter that Clay wrote, and my guess is that was the last thing that had to happen to finalize the metallization of the Clay AI.


***An explanation might be for the reason the date on the file (when we start the game) is the day that Desmond goes into the coma is because that is the date of the last time it repays the loop. So in other words it has been playing in a loop since he died in August, but the date updates on the file every day and we come into it the same day that Desmond goes into a coma and the day that the loop runs for the last time and Clays AI finally materializes.



That’s when Clay appears to Desmond and then eventually saves Desmond by being deleted instead of him.

Apirka
03-03-2012, 12:22 AM
So let me see if I get this right. This is what I think happened in the DLC and please tell me if I am on the right track or if I have this all wrong. :D
I think you've raised some very interesting points c: And yay, more Lost Archive discussion! (I'm useless when it comes to the codes, so...)




Clay has dad issues and they get to him to the point he has to go to a counselor, who is under the influence of Abstergo (possibly the medical company mentioned in the Drs notes?)

It's a possibility that Abstergo is the company the psychiatrist talks about Desmond does say they even make pain killers (Ibuprofen, I think was it?), but I didn't see anything that outright said it? IIRC the flashback to it was during the Abstergo memory, but after he apparently escaped.



Clay is approached by William and made into an Assassin and his issues from before go away.

I don't think the issues go away. The psychiatrist is a jerk and only out or the money, but I do think he's on to something with his thoughts regarding Clay's progress. It seemed to me that William took on a sort of father/mentor role for Clay, giving him the support his father never gave him. After all, we never hear any other Assassin (and they did add some non main character lines in) and The Order has him giving a lot of advice.



Clay is sent on a mission to be captured by Abstergo and to become a test subject, his team is William working from the outside and Lucy (who has been groomed for the job and has been living outside of the Assassins for some years) who is suppose to get him out when the job is done.


Apparently he infiltrated Abstergo first (memory 3... "Abstergo") and stole a not Vidic sent to Rickkin concerning the Animus project (curiously dated to not even a year after the psychiatrist notes the change in Clay's attitude). It tips of William that there's something about that project and that s when he sends Clay in.




Clays mission is to hack the computer system and animus to figure out what Abstergo’s plans to use the animus for and what they are looking for.

I find it strange that if that was all he needed over a year to do so...



While Clay is trying to figure this out he forms some sort of relationship with Lucy because of the note where she says, “thanks for the kind words”

I'm not sure if it's just because of the letter -- though that seemed to have some significance to him -- but they were "working together" (or so he thought) for over a year while he was being tested on.



Vidic takes this information and does some research and finds out that Desmond has the perfect genetic tree to help them locate the apple through Ezio.

I think they took a while to find that out -- after all, the apple conversation is during memory 4, then comes memory 5 and only during memory 6 does Vidic mention Desmond.



At the same time at some point while Clay has been in the animus he enters the Eden memory from AC2. I suspect that it is during this memory that Juno speaks with Clay. Probably the same way that Minerva speaks to Desmond through Ezio. At any rate I am guessing the memory is much bigger then what we see in the AC2 truth video and because of what Clay sees and hears from Juno (probably also much more then we hear in the memories) he understands “what will be and what has been” Some one on here suggested that Juno may have told him he had to die in order to save Desmond and that is why he did not want to do it at first. (I think this is a good possibility because there really is no other reason he should not want to help him, after all he has never he even met Desmond). At any rate Juno tells Clay he must help Desmond and after she opens his eyes to the truth, (something I think we did not get to see) he agrees to help Desmond.

I'm curious as to how much the Templar knows, and I'm not sure Juno was during the same memory as The Truth. The Truth is session 12, I think he may have experienced more Adam and Eve memories during private sessions.

I also wonder what Juno told him and yes, I do think she may have foretold his death (might be me that had suggested that), but I think if there's more to it that could be very interesting. And she actually says "Go forth, with your eyes opened to all but the truth." so she didn't actually open them at that point -- and then comes memory 6, The Truth, and right at the start of memory 7 she says that his eyes are now open.

What I've been thinking about is that of the glyphs represent the point were he killed himself, why is most of memory 7 after that? There's still a big part afterwards with River Styx and after that he apparently creates AI!Clay and then there's getting to t "heaven" portion. Or is everything after the glyph room from AI!Clay? And why does he remember the exact glyphs, right down to spelling mistakes -- if he doesn't actually remember the suicide because he was created a day prior?



It is my guess that after this is when he starts to leave the voice notes of his findings about Abstergo (the ones Desmond finds in AC2) in the animus and probably around the same time stumbles over the video footage of Vidic talking to Lucy about the importance of the Desmond and how she is to take him out of the lab and gain his trust so she can bring the Apple back.


I t sounded to me like he saw the real scene as it happened and him listening in was caught on tape which Lucy destroyed so Vidic wouldn't find out, as she mentions in her second letter.


*** I pause here to say that in AC1 when she talks to Desmond about her work and how Abstergo found her and how Vidic saved her life, that is occurs to me that one or two things could be happening there. Either the story was a lie to make Desmond think she was sharing personal things about her self in order that he would trust her. OR maybe she went into Abstergo on the Assassins side and then Vidic figured out she was a mole and he was the one who held her at gun point and told her she could either die or come work for the Templars and she picked to work for the Templars… just a thought….
I wonder how that story fits in, though I don't think Vidic threatened her into joining -- if her letter expresses her true feelings he really bought into Templar ideology and her having been raised outside the order to become a mole as well as William's emotional distance put her off the order even further, since she felt alone and as if the order -- William specifically -- didn't care about her life.



It is my guess that it is at this point that he knows he is never getting out and that he really is going to die at Abstergo.

He does say he's trapped and must find a way out after we witness the Lucy - Vidic scene, and as soon as memory 7 starts he has accepted what Juno's told him and agreed to help Desmond. It may very well be that finding out about Lucy was what made him decide there was no other way and he might as well die, if that is what Juno told him would happen. I also wonder if his previous psychological problems had anything to do with it.



I guess at that point Abstergo hides his death by dumping him into the Tiber river…. Not sure about that one…


**** Still not sure how Clay would know how Abstergo would hide his death…

This would seem to be the case, but yes, it is certainly odd that AI! Clay would know of the Tiber River part. Certainly makes me wonder...


This leaving just the AI version of himself behind to interact with Desmond. But it would appear that the animus has an issue constructing the AI version of Clay though and while constructing his AI persona it gets stuck on just a few select attributes/ memories of who he is and loops through these preventing his AI getting to Desmond.


He does seem to have problems during brotherhood, but I'm not sure if that was because Desmond had just put him back together.




Now this is just a guess, but I have been wondering over and over gain why he would have to kill himself in the animus. The only thought I have is maybe when he “kills” himself that allows him to break free from the loop for just a few mins before it resets and that is when he is able to come to Desmond in Brotherhood. This would make sense why he seems so fixated on getting to the “suicide” point (with flashes in the other memories.) Perhaps he does not know when he and Desmond will be in a place where he can meet him and he is eager to get to the part of the loop where can break through as he is afraid he will miss his chance?


It never seemed like suicide to me. It is always going towards that one goal, the last gate -- it even shows in one of the flashes, without the way to it crumbling -- and I get the impression that he tries to reach it, but never can. As far as we know he can only ever break the loop by collecting the fragments and using the gate in memory 5.

orionsrise
03-03-2012, 02:41 AM
In memory 2 while backtracking for the missing data points I found this binary message in an elevated section Block 1 Block 2 block 3 block 401000011 0110110001100001 0111100100100000 0110001101110010 0110010101100001 0111010001100101 0110010000100000 0100000101100100 0110000101101101 0010110000100000 0100000101100100 0110000101101101 0010000001100011 0111001001100101 0110110001100001 0110010101100100 0010000001000011 0110000101110100 01111001I thought it was straight binary code but there is another encryption because after decoding I come up ith these lettersCr cdlaeAcd, exAddre Cy tdamamatla the spaces and comma's are part of the encryptionif I can find the key to the second encryption then I'll post it later

Apirka
03-03-2012, 03:00 AM
According to The Lost archive code thread (here: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/660893-Can-someone-help-me-crack-this-code-in-The-Lost-Archive it is "Clay created Adam, Adam created Clay"

orionsrise
03-03-2012, 03:16 AM
thanx sorry for the repeat post

stefman6987
03-03-2012, 08:08 AM
@samward, i agree with pretty much everything you said! well done man, makes lots of sense that the "october 10th 2012" date, clay can only repeat the loop until he finds desmond, maybe that truth video in ACB was a leak, where 16 was aloud a minute or so to talk to desmond? hence him saying "theres no time". And as you said, when he finally talks to desmond in the black room, he is able to reach that final gate. My problem is, is that 16 didn't really show desmond anything, i want to know what happened in eden! why is that bit so important!

The problem with the lost archive is that, up until this point we were lead to believe that he just went crazy...but from the lost archive it seems like killing himself was the objective considering he had no way of getting out, but i suppose it works both ways, he saw all the symbols and could't stop thinking of them...and then theres the bleeding effect..

EDIT: guys watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCnpebzbGI4&feature=relmfu
it's glyph puzzle 20 from ac2, 16 sais "i can't do it. can i do it? will it set me free from this endless ring of time.... goes on about cutting himself.. then.. It's time to get out. Ah the moon, i can see the stars. My mind is gone. Lucy, i can't wait any longer. I'm ready to go. She see's me raise the knife".

i dunno bout you guys, but i get alot from this puzzle, 16 couldn't leave, lucy just watched him kill himself, he was going to be stuck in the loop, until he can stop the loop... he breaks the loop in the black room when he meets desmond and sends the letter to his dad (must have to be the point) then he can enter that last gate.. well that's how i interepreted it.

samward
03-03-2012, 09:00 AM
I wonder how that story fits in, though I don't think Vidic threatened her into joining -- if her letter expresses her true feelings he really bought into Templar ideology and her having been raised outside the order to become a mole as well as William's emotional distance put her off the order even further, since she felt alone and as if the order -- William specifically -- didn't care about her life.


The more I thought about this point last night, the more I have to agree with you. But it also made me think, because Lucy was lonely and all, maybe Vidic does come save her like she tells Desmond he does… maybe that is what caused her to switch sides and to attach to Vidic as a father figure as Clay attached to William as his father figure.

Speaking of fathers anyone have a guess what Clays dad did, that his wife could not forgive and Clay would say” it was not his fault” ?

zerocooll21
03-03-2012, 01:18 PM
Speaking of fathers anyone have a guess what Clays dad did, that his wife could not forgive and Clay would say” it was not his fault” ?

I assumed he was referring to how his father had acted towards him and his mother with the demanding of money.

Apirka
03-03-2012, 05:07 PM
thanx sorry for the repeat post

No problem C:


@samward, i agree with pretty much everything you said! well done man, makes lots of sense that the "october 10th 2012" date, clay can only repeat the loop until he finds desmond, maybe that truth video in ACB was a leak, where 16 was aloud a minute or so to talk to desmond? hence him saying "theres no time". And as you said, when he finally talks to desmond in the black room, he is able to reach that final gate. My problem is, is that 16 didn't really show desmond anything, i want to know what happened in eden! why is that bit so important!

The problem with the lost archive is that, up until this point we were lead to believe that he just went crazy...but from the lost archive it seems like killing himself was the objective considering he had no way of getting out, but i suppose it works both ways, he saw all the symbols and could't stop thinking of them...and then theres the bleeding effect..

EDIT: guys watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCnpebzbGI4&feature=relmfu
it's glyph puzzle 20 from ac2, 16 sais "i can't do it. can i do it? will it set me free from this endless ring of time.... goes on about cutting himself.. then.. It's time to get out. Ah the moon, i can see the stars. My mind is gone. Lucy, i can't wait any longer. I'm ready to go. She see's me raise the knife".

i dunno bout you guys, but i get alot from this puzzle, 16 couldn't leave, lucy just watched him kill himself, he was going to be stuck in the loop, until he can stop the loop... he breaks the loop in the black room when he meets desmond and sends the letter to his dad (must have to be the point) then he can enter that last gate.. well that's how i interepreted it.

ACB always gave me the impression that when Desmond reached him he hadn't been fully loaded -- as supported by the fact that the Animus was still compiling part of him the moment Desmond arrived there -- which is why he couldn't stick around. He seemed less "I am so crazy" incoherent as he did in some of the Truth puzzles, it was more as if he tried to say as much as he could in a short time because he knew he he needed more time to properly put himself together. What I find curious is that if The Lost Archive has anything to do with his ACB appearance, why does he not even hint on anything like that in his database entry, despite talking about how Desmond put him back together by solving the cluster puzzles?

And yes, he seemed strangely... not crazy during The Lost Archive. Hell, even after over a year of experiments and after The Bleeding Effect, where he refuses to do what Juno tells him to, he still thinks of completing the mission and leaving, which is what The Truth is about -- right up until he finds out that Lucy is working with Vidic in the end. Next we know he's agreed to helped Desmond as his eyes are now open.

What's curious is that he says "Lucy, I can't wait any longer." At this point he should know about her betrayal, after all.


The more I thought about this point last night, the more I have to agree with you. But it also made me think, because Lucy was lonely and all, maybe Vidic does come save her like she tells Desmond he does… maybe that is what caused her to switch sides and to attach to Vidic as a father figure as Clay attached to William as his father figure.

Speaking of fathers anyone have a guess what Clays dad did, that his wife could not forgive and Clay would say” it was not his fault” ?

I think working with her may have allowed Vidic enough insight into her mind that he guessed that she could be convinced to work for Abstergo -- he might have even staged the entire attack on her in order to win her over.

As for Clay's Dad, the psychiatrist proposes the theory of parental abuse, though I don't think that it was physical or even sexual as much as emotional. Clay's Mum says that she can't deal with having to take are of a husband who doesn't even want her help, every time we hear Harold says something he's a bit of a jerk and during the flashback where Clay tells him he got into a engineering programme and his Dad puts him down with "Kaczmarek's build things, they don't sit at desks.", the hallway we walk through reminds me a bit of a prison, and then there's of course the conversation about Clay's Mum leaving. (The next thing William says after Harold tells Clay to leave his history paper and what money the foreman's son makes is also "They will put obstacles into your way." But as mentioned in my notes, I am not necessarily convinced that the two have to do with each other.) The only time Harold is portrayed in a positive light is at the the end when he hear his phone call and he desperately asks Clay to call back and let him know he's okay.

Thinking about it, I'm curious what the placement of the flashbacks could tell us about Clay's psyche...

crash3
03-03-2012, 05:17 PM
I felt sorry for Lucy despite her secret allegience it was very satisfying to finally get the full story of subject 16 but it was a shame that it had to be through playing those dreadful first person missions, those were a serious blunder on ubisofts part

Steww-
03-03-2012, 05:37 PM
What kind of gameplay would you prefer Ubisoft to give us this info in?

OP, I agree with you referencing the importance of the Lorenz attractor. Every glyph seems to have a key message.

jamgamerforever
03-03-2012, 07:04 PM
Well, well, well. This DLC was amazing and with the Loop and everything, has my mind running around in circles.

So, the lack of insanity? I have a few theories, and I have read through the entire thread so will try not to repeat anything. Maybe Clay partitioned parts of his mind almost, to create the AI? The line in memory 7: 'DNA and memory scanned. Upload complete. Quarantining construct Clay Kaczmarek.'

Construct = Something formed or constructed from parts.

The problem is that we're not able to discern where Clay actually dies. Assuming it's where the symbols appear, then the Loop is the AI going through the memories over and over again to properly recreate Clay Kaczmarek. This explains his Brotherhood state, which you've all picked up already. So that quote is the Animus scanning him to see if his memory matches the original Clay's memories.

I think it's interesting that from Memory 1, time continues to move forwards. Then that message from Clay's dad is recieved, and it's from January 2011. That has to be significant somehow.

Pretty sure that door at the end of memory 7 is back to his body, but of course his body is 'worm food'.

So the backdoor is the way to the current Animus Island. Hmm... This DLC really does raise alot of questions.

Apirka
03-03-2012, 07:26 PM
Well, well, well. This DLC was amazing and with the Loop and everything, has my mind running around in circles.

So, the lack of insanity? I have a few theories, and I have read through the entire thread so will try not to repeat anything. Maybe Clay partitioned parts of his mind almost, to create the AI? The line in memory 7: 'DNA and memory scanned. Upload complete. Quarantining construct Clay Kaczmarek.'

Construct = Something formed or constructed from parts.

That's an interesting idea. I took it as "construct" being the Animus' way of saying that it's a copy of Clay Kaczmarek -- not the real thing, but a construct of the original, but not that there might actually be something other than the day after its creation being missing from the AI.


The problem is that we're not able to discern where Clay actually dies. Assuming it's where the symbols appear, then the Loop is the AI going through the memories over and over again to properly recreate Clay Kaczmarek. This explains his Brotherhood state, which you've all picked up already. So that quote is the Animus scanning him to see if his memory matches the original Clay's memories.

My main problem with that theory is that we are the ones to break the loop -- therefore, the one who fgoes through these memories is the one who does it. And yet, AI!lay tells Desmond that he put him together by solving the puzzles and never hints at anything else. (Except maybe when he speaks about the synch nexus -- actually, the first time I played ACR I think I explained AI!CLay's relative sanity to myself as him having the synch nexus now.) And I'm still bothered by AI!Clay remembering a perfect recreation of the glyphs. Clay wrote them with his own blood, he must have been dying of blood loss towards the end so they really shouldn't be perfectly the same as the ones he uses of the Truth puzzles which the AI should know, and there's still the spelling mistake. (Unless that isn't a mistake at all...)


I think it's interesting that from Memory 1, time continues to move forwards. Then that message from Clay's dad is recieved, and it's from January 2011. That has to be significant somehow.
Wait. Oh dear. I never noticed, but how does Clay know of that phone call? I only thought that it's rather sad, now that Harold finally behaves like a Dad Clay is already stuck in Abstergo with no way to escape, but -- neither the AI nor the original should remember that call. Hmm.


Pretty sure that door at the end of memory 7 is back to his body, but of course his body is 'worm food'.

So the backdoor is the way to the current Animus Island. Hmm... This DLC really does raise alot of questions.


That's brilliant! I never even thought of that! And it perfectly explains the it being unreachable -- anyone who knows more about Styx than the bit Wikipedia tells you, could it explain the imagery at the end of memory 7 as well? I always thought that was an interesting bit of symbolism, but I don't know enough about those things.

jamgamerforever
03-03-2012, 07:57 PM
That's an interesting idea. I took it as "construct" being the Animus' way of saying that it's a copy of Clay Kaczmarek -- not the real thing, but a construct of the original, but not that there might actually be something other than the day after its creation being missing from the AI.

Yeah, this came from seeing Clay in Brotherhood. He obviously wasn't whole. I think the Loop is the Animus's version of a loading process. Up until now, we didn't know AI existed did we? I imagine they're very complicated, and every time it went through the Loop, it became more "whole".


My main problem with that theory is that we are the ones to break the loop -- therefore, the one who fgoes through these memories is the one who does it. And yet, AI!lay tells Desmond that he put him together by solving the puzzles and never hints at anything else. (Except maybe when he speaks about the synch nexus -- actually, the first time I played ACR I think I explained AI!CLay's relative sanity to myself as him having the synch nexus now.) And I'm still bothered by AI!Clay remembering a perfect recreation of the glyphs. Clay wrote them with his own blood, he must have been dying of blood loss towards the end so they really shouldn't be perfectly the same as the ones he uses of the Truth puzzles which the AI should know, and there's still the spelling mistake. (Unless that isn't a mistake at all...)

I was under the impression we were playing as AI!Clay so under that assumption my theory would make sense. I like to think that this took place in-universe, despite the intro about Abstergo having 17 test subjects, and it couldn't be Desmond, as he's surprised to see 16 at the beginning of ACR. The synch nexus is where your ancestor has nothing left to show you, so is Clay, almost AI!Clay's ancestor? So his synch nexus is when Clay has nothing left to show him? It confuses me, because Clay seemingly goes through a LOT of ancestors in the Truth puzzles, but none of that is brought up in this DLC. Does an AI even have DNA?


Wait. Oh dear. I never noticed, but how does Clay know of that phone call? I only thought that it's rather sad, now that Harold finally behaves like a Dad Clay is already stuck in Abstergo with no way to escape, but -- neither the AI nor the original should remember that call. Hmm.

Actually, that didn't occur to me either. Wow. The Truth? Is it really a sixth sense, the one the First Civilization uses? Does it truly allow Clay to see everything?


That's brilliant! I never even thought of that! And it perfectly explains the it being unreachable -- anyone who knows more about Styx than the bit Wikipedia tells you, could it explain the imagery at the end of memory 7 as well? I always thought that was an interesting bit of symbolism, but I don't know enough about those things.

The River Styx goes around Hades 9 times. I'd have to check again, but that perhaps has significance? Are there 9 particle boxes above the river? Does the Loop happen 9 times?

I did find this though: "Once souls arrived on the other side of the River Styx, they joined other souls, who were waiting around until they were reborn into a new body."

This perfectly describes Clay's situation, except that there was no body to return to. It also describes him waiting with Desmond, other souls, but that's not what happens when he crosses it, it happens before, in Memory 5. Ugh, that isn't simple.

Also: "While waiting for their turn to be reborn, a soul depended on his or her living family to take care of them by offering food and wine at special times of the year."

Maybe that's why the story puts alot of emphasis on his dad? And the message at the end too?

Anxiously awaiting your reply!

Apirka
03-03-2012, 08:43 PM
Yeah, this came from seeing Clay in Brotherhood. He obviously wasn't whole. I think the Loop is the Animus's version of a loading process. Up until now, we didn't know AI existed did we? I imagine they're very complicated, and every time it went through the Loop, it became more "whole".

I'm still surprised Clay is apparently some sort of super genius or something. He can make an AI of himself, he can hack into Abstergo's main frame. and memory 3 seems to be him just breaking into Abstergo and stealing stuff from Rickkin's computer. and then escaping when apparently the alarm goes off or something. And yet the dates suggest that he's at most about a year of training before he does that...

I can't help but wonder if there isn't more about the loop than we currently think , considering the way it is done -- the start of memory one is a perfectly blending the end and the beginning (and what is up with that weird version of Animus Island? Especially since it is apparently part of the memories...), the flashes to memory 7's heaven part, and especially the breaking of the loop happening at the end of memory 5 -- The Bleeding Effect.


I was under the impression we were playing as AI!Clay so under that assumption my theory would make sense. I like to think that this took place in-universe, despite the intro about Abstergo having 17 test subjects, and it couldn't be Desmond, as he's surprised to see 16 at the beginning of ACR. The synch nexus is where your ancestor has nothing left to show you, so is Clay, almost AI!Clay's ancestor? So his synch nexus is when Clay has nothing left to show him? It confuses me, because Clay seemingly goes through a LOT of ancestors in the Truth puzzles, but none of that is brought up in this DLC. Does an AI even have DNA?


I'm pretty sure it's not Desmond, but I keep thinking that there's details in there that don't quite add up if it's AI!Clay. It may very well be him, though -- but I think there's something about Ubisoft's way of presenting this DLC. Everything else is always integrated into the story line, but this is in it's own menu, without any explanation as who we are playing and the only thing telling us the time frame is the Animus loading screen. Then there's also the fact that the Animus doesn't normally show memories like that -- Desmond had to collect the data fragments to unlock access to this part of the Animus. There's also no loading screen between memories, just a title screen, while Desmond got one for every memory he accessed, and one would think the Animus would load something and not just show us random titles.



Actually, that didn't occur to me either. Wow. The Truth? Is it really a sixth sense, the one the First Civilization uses? Does it truly allow Clay to see everything?

"I can see." Has it ever been said how much First Civilization genes Clay has? We know Desmond's genes are special since William tells us as much during ACR and we know that Desmond and Clay are related, but apparently only distantly. Perhaps towards the end he did unlock the sixth sense? Maybe that is why his eyes have been opened... the reason why Juno contacts him and tells him to help Desmond -- maybe even to sacrifice himself?


The River Styx goes around Hades 9 times. I'd have to check again, but that perhaps has significance? Are there 9 particle boxes above the river? Does the Loop happen 9 times?

I did find this though: "Once souls arrived on the other side of the River Styx, they joined other souls, who were waiting around until they were reborn into a new body."

This perfectly describes Clay's situation, except that there was no body to return to. It also describes him waiting with Desmond, other souls, but that's not what happens when he crosses it, it happens before, in Memory 5. Ugh, that isn't simple.

Also: "While waiting for their turn to be reborn, a soul depended on his or her living family to take care of them by offering food and wine at special times of the year."

Maybe that's why the story puts alot of emphasis on his dad? And the message at the end too?


Oh, that's very interesting... And Styx is related to the Greek Gods, so maybe it also has a relation to TWCB?

Also, breaking the loop has Clay send a message to his Dad -- how? And yes, the placement of the gate is important, somehow. I also remember now -- the Animus voice talking about the Clay construct happens after he crosses the River, doesn't it? He has his conversation with Juno, finds Lucy's letter, the secret message, eventually gets into the hallway with the glyphs and only after jumping out of that to River Styx, which he has to cross to get to that serene room where the Animus talks. So really, when does original!Clay stop and when does AI!Cay start?

You know, I wonder if his Dad is going to play a role after this somehow. I've considered that maybe there's something about his Mum and the typo's in her e-mail are about more than just being drunk, but there's so much emphasize put onto Harold and his short comings as a father, up until that one phone call, and a lot of emphasize on Clay's conflicting feelings regarding him.


Anxiously awaiting your reply!

:D Sorry, I'm so terribly slow at typing.

jamgamerforever
03-03-2012, 09:46 PM
I'm still surprised Clay is apparently some sort of super genius or something. He can make an AI of himself, he can hack into Abstergo's main frame. and memory 3 seems to be him just breaking into Abstergo and stealing stuff from Rickkin's computer. and then escaping when apparently the alarm goes off or something. And yet the dates suggest that he's at most about a year of training before he does that...

I can't help but wonder if there isn't more about the loop than we currently think , considering the way it is done -- the start of memory one is a perfectly blending the end and the beginning (and what is up with that weird version of Animus Island? Especially since it is apparently part of the memories...), the flashes to memory 7's heaven part, and especially the breaking of the loop happening at the end of memory 5 -- The Bleeding Effect.

Yeah, there is definitely more to Clay than we first thought. He is able to interface with the Animus so easily, seemingly able to dodge the Bleeding Effect for quite some time.

The Loop. I'm getting the same feeling, that there's something really important hidden just out of plain sight, something key to Assassin's Creed lore. I think I'm going to have to play the whole thing Memory 1-7, then Memory 1-5 again. I had all the decipher cubes first time through so just jumped to Memory 5 where I knew that door was. Maybe playing the 12 memories like that will make something pop in my head.


I'm pretty sure it's not Desmond, but I keep thinking that there's details in there that don't quite add up if it's AI!Clay. It may very well be him, though -- but I think there's something about Ubisoft's way of presenting this DLC. Everything else is always integrated into the story line, but this is in it's own menu, without any explanation as who we are playing and the only thing telling us the time frame is the Animus loading screen. Then there's also the fact that the Animus doesn't normally show memories like that -- Desmond had to collect the data fragments to unlock access to this part of the Animus. There's also no loading screen between memories, just a title screen, while Desmond got one for every memory he accessed, and one would think the Animus would load something and not just show us random titles.

Yeah, we'd have probably heard Desmond comment on things if it was him. That's the thing though, nobody comments. Part of that makes me think it's the AI, another part of me wonders. It has to be Clay though, right? Because of the Loop? If it was someone watching, why would they go through the Loop?

So far, everything we have experienced has been Desmond, apart from the multiplayer. Interestingly, the cutscenes in that were 1st person. I know it's partly because it was designed to be YOU, the player, but, maybe it's something more. In reality, we see in 1st person, yet when Desmond first experiences the 'Desmond's Journey' sequences, he feels like he has no body, but clearly takes pain from high jumps. Is 'the Truth' even more than what we already believe. Does the high concentration of First Civilization genes have him view the world differently to everyone else? Or am I just putting story into what is present just for gameplay? Curious to here what you make of this - am I overthinking it? Ubisoft does seem to take presentation quite seriously.


"I can see." Has it ever been said how much First Civilization genes Clay has? We know Desmond's genes are special since William tells us as much during ACR and we know that Desmond and Clay are related, but apparently only distantly. Perhaps towards the end he did unlock the sixth sense? Maybe that is why his eyes have been opened... the reason why Juno contacts him and tells him to help Desmond -- maybe even to sacrifice himself?

No it hasn't, but he's related to Ezio, so presumably he has more than average, but not as much as Desmond. Would Clay have Eagle Vision? He did experience Ezio after all. We do not understand how the First Civilization seemingly knows all about Ezio, Desmond, Clay and 2012. I always viewed it as they could see DNA forwards, which would explain why Juno visits both Clay and Desmond. And in the Coliseum at Brotherhood's end, Lucy couldn't hear Juno speak. You see, I wonder if Clay really dies at the end of ACR. Desmond's arm does glow blue in the ending cinematic, could that be Clay? So many questions!


Oh, that's very interesting... And Styx is related to the Greek Gods, so maybe it also has a relation to TWCB?

Also, breaking the loop has Clay send a message to his Dad -- how? And yes, the placement of the gate is important, somehow. I also remember now -- the Animus voice talking about the Clay construct happens after he crosses the River, doesn't it? He has his conversation with Juno, finds Lucy's letter, the secret message, eventually gets into the hallway with the glyphs and only after jumping out of that to River Styx, which he has to cross to get to that serene room where the Animus talks. So really, when does original!Clay stop and when does AI!Cay start?

You know, I wonder if his Dad is going to play a role after this somehow. I've considered that maybe there's something about his Mum and the typo's in her e-mail are about more than just being drunk, but there's so much emphasize put onto Harold and his short comings as a father, up until that one phone call, and a lot of emphasize on Clay's conflicting feelings regarding him.

The difficulty with Styx is whether it was original!Clay or AI!Clay who experiences it. Is Styx a construct of the Animus, or a physical manifestation of the afterlife?

Yeah, you have the events in exactly the right order, except there is that strange noise just before he enters the serene room, that is the only noise between the River and the construct audio from the Animus. And I have no idea what it could represent, so UbiSoft has me there.

It's a hell of a coincidence that both during Clay's Journey and Desmond's Journey, they experience what they perceive as neglect by their respective fathers. Their direct ancestor. And they both seem to accept their fathers by the end of their journey. Come to think of it, why does Desmond never experience the Loop? Does it only happen when your body is gone? In the Styx legends of the Greeks, a "guide" has to help the soul to return to their body. Is this why Clay can't return? Clay becomes this "guide" for Desmond in a way.

"Adam created Clay. Clay created Adam." Does this refer to original!Clay creating the AI, which in turn recreates all of his ancestors?


:D Sorry, I'm so terribly slow at typing.

It's fine, ha ha, we have almost 8 months to discuss it! It might take us that long considering the amount of stuff that Assassin's Creed has built up over the years.

Gil_217
03-03-2012, 10:45 PM
*** I pause here to say that in AC1 when she talks to Desmond about her work and how Abstergo found her and how Vidic saved her life, that is occurs to me that one or two things could be happening there. Either the story was a lie to make Desmond think she was sharing personal things about her self in order that he would trust her. OR maybe she went into Abstergo on the Assassins side and then Vidic figured out she was a mole and he was the one who held her at gun point and told her she could either die or come work for the Templars and she picked to work for the Templars… just a thought….

Like you, I thought about this after I finished (or was it during?) the awesome DLC (I'm not being ironic), and, of course, your scenario is plausible, but I have a different one.

So, I think that the Templars found, somehow, that Lucy was a mole for the Assassin's, their greatest enemies, and therefore, Alan Rikkin (possibly, since he's the CEO) sent three employees to her apartment during the night ( no "if you know what I mean" here, this is serious business!) to kill her, like she told Desmond in Assassin's Creed, but then, Vidic, aware of all of this, saved her, not because he cared about her ( he