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sabrewulf6
02-15-2012, 10:35 PM
Id like to know why, with all the complaints Ubisoft recieved over assassins creed not being subtitled, (which led you to making its sequels subtitled) why you didnt add subtitles to the re-release of assassins creed in with revelations.....as a deaf gamer I found this to be rather a huge slap in my face.

i am a massive fan of the assassin franchise, and its a huge disappointment being unable to play the first in the saga, not to mention the "movie" releases of assassins creed embers released AFTER brotherhood, id expected since it was animated, and done by ubisoft it would be subtitled, but no, I had wasted money on something I cannot watch. I understand you are a busy company, but you would have a much larger customerbase if you included deaf people in your works, plus, would have it required that much effort to input subtitles in the re-release of AC1?

Thank you for your time,

LightRey
02-15-2012, 10:38 PM
It wasn't a re-release.

sabrewulf6
02-15-2012, 10:39 PM
It was included in with the release of revelations, it counts a a rerelease, they still could have added subtitles to it, congratulations tho for pointing out the most pointless thing in my posting........

LightRey
02-15-2012, 10:40 PM
It was included in with the release of revelations, it counts a a rerelease, they still could have added subtitles to it, congratulations tho for pointing out the most pointless thing in my posting........

No, it doesn't count as a re-release. It counts as a pre-order bonus. A re-release requires it to be (edited and) released.

sabrewulf6
02-15-2012, 10:43 PM
well your wrong about the pre order release, i bought mine in a shop recently, at any rate again i point out, its not the main fact im trying to underline here.......

they could and should have edited assassins creed so deaf gamers could play it, its not a difficult job to do

LightRey
02-15-2012, 10:43 PM
well your wrong about the pre order release, i bought mine in a shop recently, at any rate again i point out, its not the main fact im trying to underline here.......

they could and should have edited assassins creed so deaf gamers could play it, its not a difficult job to do

You bought a regular AC1.

sabrewulf6
02-15-2012, 10:46 PM
no i didnt, i bought, AC revelations that had AC1 included in it IT WASNT a preorder bonus, what the hellman, are you seriously taking the piss and trying to be an ******* here? Im raising a valid point and all your doing is being a **** or a troll or whatever

ShaneO7K
02-15-2012, 10:47 PM
Someone needs to calm down..

LightRey
02-15-2012, 10:48 PM
Ugh. The AC1 on the ACR game disk is identical to the original. It's not a re-release and it's only added to the first production line of the game (so yes technically it's not a pre order bonus). It is, however, just a bonus.

ali-severi
02-15-2012, 10:49 PM
Well but he has the point. Also as English is not my first language, it was hard to play, listen and to understand everything...

sabrewulf6
02-15-2012, 10:50 PM
im aware of that, your missing my point again as i reiterate.......ubisoft could and should have re-edited ac1 with subtitles after the many complaints they recieved from the deaf community, its kinda a slap in the face to get ac1 with the newest sequel only to find out you cant play it, and i apologise for getting angry, but you are missing what im trying to say

LightRey
02-15-2012, 10:51 PM
im aware of that, your missing my point again as i reiterate.......ubisoft could and should have re-edited ac1 with subtitles after the many complaints they recieved from the deaf community, its kinda a slap in the face to get ac1 with the newest sequel only to find out you cant play it, and i apologise for getting angry, but you are missing what im trying to say

No, they couldn't have. They had other things to do. Editing AC1 would've taken way too much work and the subtitles were never specially for the deaf to begin with.

sabrewulf6
02-15-2012, 10:53 PM
you really are a ****, that shows complete lack of respect for ppl with disabilities

ali-severi
02-15-2012, 10:53 PM
Well, but I really don't get it why they did it without subtitles... you know? :/

D.I.D.
02-15-2012, 10:54 PM
Jesus wept, Light Rey. THIS is an important point here...



they could and should have edited assassins creed so deaf gamers could play it, its not a difficult job to do

... and the greater one is why Embers wasn't subtitled while the game it came with was.

It's perfectly sensible to want to bring this to Ubisoft's attention so they make all parts equally accessible in future, and nobody needs your weird Captain Save-A-Corporation responses in here.

sabrewulf6
02-15-2012, 10:55 PM
nor do i, they only did the AC sequels with subtitles because they got a lot of complaints

sabrewulf6
02-15-2012, 10:56 PM
Jesus wept, Light Rey. THIS is an important point here...



... and the greater one is why Embers wasn't subtitled while the game it came with was.

It's perfectly sensible to want to bring this to Ubisoft's attention so they make all parts equally accessible in future, and nobody needs your weird Captain Save-A-Corporation responses in here.


thank you doubleclick

ali-severi
02-15-2012, 10:58 PM
ACR had portuguese subtitles... it was so strange ...

LightRey
02-15-2012, 10:59 PM
you really are a ****, that shows complete lack of respect for ppl with disabilities

Stop blaming this on your disability. Your being deaf has nothing to do with this. You were being disrespectful and unreasonable to the developers. They added a free bonus and you're complaining that they didn't edit it specially for deaf people.

SlimeDynamiteD
02-15-2012, 10:59 PM
Sabre, I get that it would seem like a 'slap in the face from Ubisoft' as you had put so delicately,
however I think that Ubisoft had alot more on their minds (not saying that they don't put your disabilities behind others)
but with a release coming up they thought to do a favor by putting Assassin's Creed I with the game and I don't think it ever occurred to them to put subtitles on it.

I don't think Ubisoft intentionally ignored requests/complaints of the deaf community to put subtitles with the first game.

And LightRey... For your own sake: Shut up.

sabrewulf6
02-15-2012, 11:02 PM
wow lightrey, im not blaming anything on my disability, Im just saying, they should have shown some courtesy, but you seem to have a real problem towards deaf people....

and slimedynamite, i didnt say ubisoft ignored complaints, i meant after the complaints they recieved about ac1 not being subtitled upon its first release, i would have thought they would have added them, specially since its a sage spanning this long so far

SlimeDynamiteD
02-15-2012, 11:06 PM
True, but I think these complaints may have forgotten over the years. I mean, AC1 was released in 2007.
That's 5 years ago, I don't think complaints will be remembered after 5 years.

Though I do agree with you that it would've been neat if they would have had patched AC1 when it came out with subtitles.
But I think you can't blame them after 5 years.

LightRey
02-15-2012, 11:07 PM
wow lightrey, im not blaming anything on my disability, Im just saying, they should have shown some courtesy, but you seem to have a real problem towards deaf people....

and slimedynamite, i didnt say ubisoft ignored complaints, i meant after the complaints they recieved about ac1 not being subtitled upon its first release, i would have thought they would have added them, specially since its a sage spanning this long so far

There are lots of people with lots of disabilities in the world. They could also have added a change in controls for people with no thumbs, or a special guide for people with Down Syndrome, etc. They can't please everybody.

I have nothing against deaf people. However, I do have something against people who are inconsiderate and feel like they deserve special treatment.

SlimeDynamiteD
02-15-2012, 11:09 PM
Dude seriously?
Shut up.

sabrewulf6
02-15-2012, 11:10 PM
again lightrey, they added subtitles to every single sequel to a saga, they would actually gain more money and gamercustomers from subtitling ac1 the same way theyve done the sequels, im not asking for something difficult, or money, or compensation, just simple subtitles, but clearly youv got it in for me, whatever man I havent got time for people like yourself, i hope you become disabled yourself one day then you will know what its like

LightRey
02-15-2012, 11:11 PM
Dude seriously?
Shut up.

No, you shut up. I'm not going to treat this guy any differently than the other people that bash Ubisoft for unfair, bad reasons just because he's deaf.


again lightrey, they added subtitles to every single sequel to a saga, they would actually gain more money and gamercustomers from subtitling ac1 the same way theyve done the sequels, im not asking for something difficult, or money, or compensation, just simple subtitles, but clearly youv got it in for me, whatever man I havent got time for people like yourself, i hope you become disabled yourself one day then you will know what its like

They added them because they had the time and it's an upcoming trend in games. They're not going to dig into the AC1 code just to edit one thing in that some people may like. Especially when they have to work on at least 2 other upcoming games.

sabrewulf6
02-15-2012, 11:14 PM
unfair? bad? im not bashing ubisoft, i love ubisoft, im a friggin fan of their games you idiot! im just merely stating it was inconsiderate!

you gotta get off your nazi high horse

SlimeDynamiteD
02-15-2012, 11:14 PM
He's not bashing Ubisoft with unfair, bad reasons.
He's asking for a little compassion from Ubisoft's side.

This is not the typical "Assassin's Creed sucks because it sucks" kind of thing.

sabrewulf6
02-15-2012, 11:17 PM
nice to know someone sees what im actually trying to point out! thank you again slimedynamite,

LightRey
02-15-2012, 11:17 PM
unfair? bad? im not bashing ubisoft, i love ubisoft, im a friggin fan of their games you idiot! im just merely stating it was inconsiderate!

you gotta get off your nazi high horse

Do you have any idea just how much time and effort it would cost to add in subtitles? Not to mention money?

SlimeDynamiteD
02-15-2012, 11:19 PM
No problem Sabre,

Light, even though it costs much time and effort it's also a bit of service and it'll give Ubisoft a nice image.
So it's an investment in image and maybe expansion of customers.

sabrewulf6
02-15-2012, 11:20 PM
yes i am aware, im not that naive, but they would gain the money back and a bigger clientele

LightRey
02-15-2012, 11:20 PM
No problem Sabre,

Light, even though it costs much time and effort it's also a bit of service and it'll give Ubisoft a nice image.
So it's an investment in image and maybe expansion of customers.

Even if it did (and I actually doubt it since subtitles are not in games specially for deaf gamers, so it would go largely unnoticed by the media), I doubt it would compensate much. Besides, as I said they were working on 2 upcoming games at the time, so they didn't have the time, money or manpower to spare, especially considering their release schedule.


yes i am aware, im not that naive, but they would gain the money back and a bigger clientele

You really think it would be that significant? For one the game is 7 years old. It's not going to sell well, even if it becomes popular amongst deaf gamers. Second, they were working on 2 other upcoming games.

sabrewulf6
02-15-2012, 11:23 PM
I give up with this guy

SlimeDynamiteD
02-15-2012, 11:23 PM
I'm not saying that they should have done it considering their top-priorities at the time.
I'm just saying they may have done it or may still be able to do it.

I also never said that the subtitles are in game especially for the deaf, I'm saying it could really help them out if there were.

LightRey
02-15-2012, 11:24 PM
I'm not saying that they should have done it considering their top-priorities at the time.
I'm just saying they may have done it or may still be able to do it.

I also never said that the subtitles are in game especially for the deaf, I'm saying it could really help them out if there were.

I never said you said that. However, it means that it will not be seen as something that is specially done for the deaf and therefore it won't contribute to their "nice image" as you say.

SlimeDynamiteD
02-15-2012, 11:27 PM
Of course it will.
If they did put subtitles in it they showed the (deaf) community appreciation and show that they do consider their needs as well.
In which case the deaf people will like Ubisoft and possibly recommend games like Assassin's Creed to other deaf gamers.

LightRey
02-15-2012, 11:29 PM
Of course it will.
If they did put subtitles in it they showed the (deaf) community appreciation and show that they do consider their needs as well.
In which case the deaf people will like Ubisoft and possibly recommend games like Assassin's Creed to other deaf gamers.

The deaf likely won't recognize it as such. They'll appreciate it, but they won't see it as anything done especially for them as it is normal for games nowadays to have subtitles. They'll just see it as something coincidentally to their benefit.

Not unless it is advertized as such of course, but then they'd have to do that and it'd have to be good advertizing.

The4orTy67
02-15-2012, 11:30 PM
I'm usually on the FC3 forum but man that LightRey guy lacks manners.

SlimeDynamiteD
02-15-2012, 11:31 PM
If that's the case then it's the more frustrating when there aren't any subtitles in a game.
Therefore making them displeased.

And the more reason for Ubisoft to put subtitles in a game in the first place.

LightRey
02-15-2012, 11:32 PM
I'm usually on the FC3 forum but man that LightRey guy lacks manners.

Why thank you. I would point out that it is against the rules to single out other members.


If that's the case then it's the more frustrating when there aren't any subtitles in a game.
Therefore making them displeased.

And the more reason for Ubisoft to put subtitles in a game in the first place.

No it wouldn't. At least not to the more considerate deaf people (which I would assume is the majority), because it's just the same game as before. It would just be viewed as regular inaction.

SlimeDynamiteD
02-15-2012, 11:33 PM
If that's the case then it's the more frustrating when there aren't any subtitles in a game.
Therefore making them displeased.

And the more reason for Ubisoft to put subtitles in a game in the first place.

I think you missed that because of 'someone' with a useless and uncontributing comment.

LightRey
02-15-2012, 11:35 PM
I think you missed that because of 'someone' with a useless and uncontributing comment.

Why are you quoting yourself? My post was a direct response to that.

SlimeDynamiteD
02-15-2012, 11:38 PM
Not at first! Anyhow:

Sure but if the majority of games have subtitles (regardless of the reason, wether or not to please deaf people) then why refrain from putting it in Assassin's Creed?

LightRey
02-15-2012, 11:39 PM
Not at first! Anyhow:

Sure but if the majority of games have subtitles (regardless of the reason, wether or not to please deaf people) then why refrain from putting it in Assassin's Creed?

Because the game was made before it became a trend and editing it would require editing the code, testing, copyrighting, etc.

I think you guys seriously underestimate just how much time and effort it would cost. The already very time consuming job of editing the code is not even half the work.

SlimeDynamiteD
02-15-2012, 11:41 PM
How are you so sure that the game was made before it became a trend to add subtitles in a game?

LightRey
02-15-2012, 11:41 PM
How are you so sure that the game was made before it became a trend to add subtitles in a game?

Well for one I am a gamer and I have a memory.

SlimeDynamiteD
02-15-2012, 11:43 PM
So what you're saying is you've played so many games over the years that you know when it became a trend to add subtitles to a game?

LightRey
02-15-2012, 11:44 PM
So what you're saying is you've played so many games over the years that you know when it became a trend to add subtitles to a game?

You don't have to play them to know whether subtitles are common in them at the time.

SlimeDynamiteD
02-15-2012, 11:45 PM
But it can't be considered as solid proof either.

LightRey
02-15-2012, 11:48 PM
But it can't be considered as solid proof either.

I never said it was.

Either way, you're trying to single out one point because you're trying to divert attention from the other points. The fact of the matter is that the game was released without subtitles and the game was never edited since release. If they ever chose to actually re-release ACI then by all means they should add subtitles, but they should probably add lots of other stuff too. To edit an old game simply to add subtitles seems rather pointless (no offense to deaf people).

Anyways, to state my all-encompassing point, it's not inconsiderate of them that they didn't add subtitles, they would've been very kind if they had and they would be if they would do it in the future, but as it stands they didn't, which just means that they were only a "little" nice for adding a free bonus.

sabrewulf6, I'm sorry that you can't play AC1 as is (because it's a great game) and I'm sorry if I came across as an inconsiderate **** (I have that effect on people, ask anyone).

SixKeys
02-16-2012, 01:02 AM
Stop blaming this on your disability. Your being deaf has nothing to do with this. You were being disrespectful and unreasonable to the developers. They added a free bonus and you're complaining that they didn't edit it specially for deaf people.

How was he being disrespectful? He didn't say "Screw you, Ubisoft, for not catering to me specifically! I hate you and will never buy anything from you again!" He made a suggestion and was being quite reasonable about it. I understand why Ubisoft didn't add subtitles to a standard edition of an old game, but this is a good suggestion for the future and the developers should take it into consideration. It's not unreasonable to make suggestions.

Edit: Never mind. In the time I took to post this reply, this thread seems to have exploded. Don't bother replying to this, I have no interest in continuing the discussion since it appears to have settled down.

De Filosoof
02-16-2012, 03:54 AM
Lightey, ever thought of working for Goldman Sachs?

The13Doctors
02-16-2012, 04:13 AM
Jesus wept, Light Rey. THIS is an important point here...



... and the greater one is why Embers wasn't subtitled while the game it came with was.

It's perfectly sensible to want to bring this to Ubisoft's attention so they make all parts equally accessible in future, and nobody needs your weird Captain Save-A-Corporation responses in here.


Well because Embers is a video, not a game, in a game you can choose to change the settings, you can't do that in a video, also you can find downloadable subtitles for it.

The13Doctors
02-16-2012, 04:14 AM
There are lots of people with lots of disabilities in the world. They could also have added a change in controls for people with no thumbs, or a special guide for people with Down Syndrome, etc. They can't please everybody.

I have nothing against deaf people. However, I do have something against people who are inconsiderate and feel like they deserve special treatment.

Seriously. This. I'm with LightRey on this one.

Anyone considering the time, money, and work it'd take? Just for one game? Then they'd have to publish new copies of a very old game.

Ubisoft listened to reason, there were complaints about it so they made sure to add subtitles to all future releases, but they aren't going to go back to edit and republish a game for something as trivial as subtitles, one can just get a transcript of the game anyways.

Disability or not, this is an unreasonable request.

As a matter of fact, it took me less than 10 seconds to find it.
Here it is. (http://www.gamershell.com/faqs/assassinscreedgamescript/1.00/)

JumpInTheFire13
02-16-2012, 07:15 AM
Dude seriously?
Shut up.
Thank you so much for saying this man. As intelligent as Lightrey is, he can be a real !@#$#@!#$!%%)*&^)_^&*$#%$&@#@ sometimes.

SlimeDynamiteD
02-16-2012, 08:22 AM
This isn't a matter of being right or wrong anymore.
It's a matter of opinion, and we can't prove each other right or wrong unless we agree with each other.

From this point I don't see me agreeing with LightRey or vice versa.
So let's just say our opinions differ and be done with this pointless discussion.

Also, anytime Jump ;P

D.I.D.
02-16-2012, 02:16 PM
Seriously. This. I'm with LightRey on this one.

Anyone considering the time, money, and work it'd take? Just for one game? Then they'd have to publish new copies of a very old game.

Ubisoft listened to reason, there were complaints about it so they made sure to add subtitles to all future releases, but they aren't going to go back to edit and republish a game for something as trivial as subtitles, one can just get a transcript of the game anyways.

Disability or not, this is an unreasonable request.

As a matter of fact, it took me less than 10 seconds to find it.
Here it is. (http://www.gamershell.com/faqs/assassinscreedgamescript/1.00/)

If they can't afford the time, maybe these things shouldn't be bonuses. Embers in particular should have been subtitled. At least the customers could be warned in some way that not all elements of the game feature the captions. My ACR box says nothing about whether the contents are subtitled or not. Some deaf gamers might have spent the extra money to get the AC1 bonus on consoles instead of the cheaper PC edition, for example. It must be extremely disappointing to believe that a major issue for you has been solved, only to find that conversation isn't over.

If I was deaf, I'd hate to try and follow a game with a script next to me. You could so it with cutscenes maybe, but so much of the vital gameplay requires that you know what the character said to you at the beginning of a challenge, and you need the calls from the guards to help you to understand that you've been spotted.

Drawing attention to this kind of thing is important. It should be part of a checklist in game design: some people are colour-blind, so don't make markers differentiated only by colour, and make sure you give them a different shape too. Subtitles are needed not only by deaf gamers, but also by people whose languages aren't included in the options: many people read a foreign language more easily than they can pick it up by sound.

The13Doctors
02-16-2012, 03:14 PM
It is!

They have made note of it, and have corrected it. Every game I've played in the last few years has had subtitles. You are all fretting about the past. It isn't something that can be changed.. It sucks that someone is deaf, but you can't be expecting special treatment or it, the way business and development works won't change to satisfy the needs of a few customers. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it isn't a bad one either. It's just the way thing works. You can't seriously expect a complete rerelease of an old game just for you, especially when theree are alternatives.

Complaints have been heard and issues have been corrected since then, but complaining that they won't go back and change something from the past is ridiculous and impossible. You are all fretting about the past, something that happened before now, you can't change that. You can change things for the future, and Ubisoft has. What more do you want? Oh that's right, a complete redo of the game just for a person. It sucks that you have that disability, but don't expect the world to change and revolve around you because you have it. Things like these are things you have to deal with, it isn't fair but it is how it is. There are solutions to many things such as the script.and many recent Game Developers have been made aware of the situation and have corrected it. Sure there are some that haven't, very few because I can't remember any, but for that you will have to simply ask them to be aware of things for the future, not complain that they didn't do it in the past.

Now in AC there's a flash when a guard see's you, there's the Arrows that change, thing's are based on shapes not just color. Some things are, you can't expect colors not to be a vital part of a game because you can't see them, you can't expect a game to be based solely on Visual Aspects because you are deaf, it sucks that you are experiencing that but these are ridiculous demands, even then Developers try to be adaptive to all consumers, you can't please everyone. If you have a disability that hinders your experience than it's something you have to deal with, they can add things to help but they can't make the game revolve around a specific disability. Some things can be fixed, and they have been, but they can't go back and redo everything they've done in the past for it.

You can be grateful for them changing things in the first place, you don't have to, but don't be expecting that they will go back and redo an entire game over something so trivial.

Also things like videos being subtitled by default are bad, I don't want to see text in the middle of my video, hindering the experience, but, yes there are people that have problems such as this, there are solutions, such as downloading Subtitles and using them with an appropriate Video Player.

LightRey
02-16-2012, 05:36 PM
This isn't a matter of being right or wrong anymore.
It's a matter of opinion, and we can't prove each other right or wrong unless we agree with each other.

From this point I don't see me agreeing with LightRey or vice versa.
So let's just say our opinions differ and be done with this pointless discussion.

Also, anytime Jump ;P

Trying to convince the person you're discussing with is pointless. Discussions are for sharing perspectives. Your goal should be to reach a consensus, not necessarily an agreement, so I'd say this discussion was more than successful.

I fully agree with The13Doctors here. The amount of work that goes in even just editing computer code can be, and most often is a very hard job. In addition to that, because it is regarding a re-release, it would have to go through the entire process of any newly developed game. That means it also has to go through testing and all the legal stuff. Not only does that take a lot of time and effort, but it also costs a lot of money and that money isn't easily earned back, especially with a game that was already released and is practically identical to the edited version.

KH_Austin
02-16-2012, 08:43 PM
Hey, everybody! Been a while since I have bee online here, but I have a few things to say:

1: LightRey, please for the love of everything that is holy, Shut up your mouth because it has gotten you in a deep hole where it's hard to climb out!

2: I have to agree with Saberwulf; it would be easier to put it in for us to enjoy and follow through to the end. I was disapponted about it. I wanted to follow Desmond and Lucy's converison about everything.

3: Ubisoft has already put some for us through AC2, Brotherhood, and Revelations. I know they already has subtitles for AC3 this year. So, either way, I'll be an supporter of Ubisoft.

LightRey
02-16-2012, 09:03 PM
Hey, everybody! Been a while since I have bee online here, but I have a few things to say:

1: LightRey, please for the love of everything that is holy, Shut up your mouth because it has gotten you in a deep hole where it's hard to climb out!

2: I have to agree with Saberwulf; it would be easier to put it in for us to enjoy and follow through to the end. I was disapponted about it. I wanted to follow Desmond and Lucy's converison about everything.

3: Ubisoft has already put some for us through AC2, Brotherhood, and Revelations. I know they already has subtitles for AC3 this year. So, either way, I'll be an supporter of Ubisoft.

1. Please for the love of everything that is holy, mind your own business.

2. As has been said many times before, it isn't something they could just do on the side and they were never planning to edit the game for any reason to begin with. This isn't some little "errand" they could let one person or a few people handle. This is something that would take a whole development team several weeks to handle.

3. Those games do/will have it because it was decided during or before development.

KH_Austin
02-17-2012, 09:30 PM
1. Please for the love of everything that is holy, mind your own business.

2. As has been said many times before, it isn't something they could just do on the side and they were never planning to edit the game for any reason to begin with. This isn't some little "errand" they could let one person or a few people handle. This is something that would take a whole development team several weeks to handle.

3. Those games do/will have it because it was decided during or before development.

I get it, I understand. It takes time to do this and that, just it would be easier is all I'm saying. As I said before, either way, I'm still be an supporter of the series and Ubisoft.

LightRey
02-17-2012, 09:37 PM
I get it, I understand. It takes time to do this and that, just it would be easier is all I'm saying. As I said before, either way, I'm still be an supporter of the series and Ubisoft.

Easier to some of the players, perhaps, but certainly not easier for the developers.

The_Despair_
02-17-2012, 10:03 PM
Oh those poor people at Ubisoft, to think of them having to spend their hard-earned pennies that they got from overpriced DLC to put subtitles in a game that should have had them in the first place...oh it just breaks my heart thinking of the time and money that might be spent doing that. =(

LightRey
02-17-2012, 10:07 PM
Oh those poor people at Ubisoft, to think of them having to spend their hard-earned pennies that they got from overpriced DLC to put subtitles in a game that should have had them in the first place...oh it just breaks my heart thinking of the time and money that might be spent doing that. =(

If it should've had them it wouldn't have sold so well.