PDA

View Full Version : ICAS track comments



249th_Harrier
04-22-2004, 05:05 AM
I noticed on the ntrk of the ICAS championship match (called blue1.ntrk), one of the pilots kept switching back and forth between auto prop pitch and 100%. Why is this? Is this using a bug in the FM like "trim on a slider"? If so, why did ICAS allow it? Also, I noticed that once the blue team gained altitude advantage, they played extremely conservative, only going for snapshots and then returning to climb. Eventually the red team seemed to get bored and made a mistake by being overagressive. It was interesting from a tactics perspective, but it was also boring to watch. I think a more historical format with objectives, like taking turns protecting or attacking AI bombers, would encourage more action, and also seem less artificial. Comments?

249th_Harrier
04-22-2004, 05:05 AM
I noticed on the ntrk of the ICAS championship match (called blue1.ntrk), one of the pilots kept switching back and forth between auto prop pitch and 100%. Why is this? Is this using a bug in the FM like "trim on a slider"? If so, why did ICAS allow it? Also, I noticed that once the blue team gained altitude advantage, they played extremely conservative, only going for snapshots and then returning to climb. Eventually the red team seemed to get bored and made a mistake by being overagressive. It was interesting from a tactics perspective, but it was also boring to watch. I think a more historical format with objectives, like taking turns protecting or attacking AI bombers, would encourage more action, and also seem less artificial. Comments?

Erbriac
04-22-2004, 05:12 AM
The fast prop regime switching is indeed a bug/exploit of FM. Maybe it missed the refferee's attention, but imho player using it should have been disqualified from the tournament.

****************************
312_Wraith
312. (Czechoslovak) Fighter Sq. RAF
****************************

04-22-2004, 06:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erbriac:
The fast prop regime switching is indeed a bug/exploit of FM. Maybe it missed the refferee's attention, but imho player using it should have been disqualified from the tournament.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. There should be no tolerance for cheating in what presumably was meant to be an honest competition.

BTW, are these tracks available? I'd like to see them myself to confirm it.

04-22-2004, 06:29 AM
There are many tracks called "blue1.ntrk". Harrier-PBNA, please identify which one had the cheating.

This is a listing of the track archive at http://www.saitek.ru/champ/icas/rec/

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
Single_Match/
d_CHE/
falkster.matzen.ntrk
d_RUS/
Etre33_Viks.ntrk
Etre33_Viks2.ntrk
Etre33_Viks3.ntrk
Kawk13_Viks.ntrk
R_storm_viks.ntrk
Viks_Matzen.ntrk
Viks_Mbot.ntrk
d_deu/
Falkster_matzen.ntrk
Falkster_matzen1.ntrk
Team_Match/
1_4/
GBRvsDEU1/
blue1.ntrk
blue2.ntrk
red1.ntrk
GBRvsDEU2/
blue1.ntrk
blue2.ntrk
red2.ntrk
GBRvsDEU3/
blue1.ntrk
blue2.ntrk
caipan.ntrk
RUSvsCZE1/
blue2.ntrk
caipan.ntrk
red1.ntrk
red2.ntrk
RUSvsCZE2/
blue1.ntrk
caipan.ntrk
red1.ntrk
red2.ntrk
1_8/
CHEvsFIN/
blue1.ntrk
blue2.ntrk
caipan.ntrk
red1.ntrk
red2.ntrk
CHNvsCZE/
red1.ntrk
red2.ntrk
DEUvsCHN/
caipan.ntrk
DEUvsLTU1/
blue1.ntrk
blue2.ntrk
caipan.ntrk
red1.ntrk
GBRvsCHE1/
blue1.ntrk
blue2.ntrk
GBRvsFIN1/
blue1.ntrk
blue2.ntrk
red1.ntrk
LTUvsCHN/
blue1.ntrk
blue2.ntrk
caipan.ntrk
red1.ntrk
red2.ntrk
LTUvsCZE/
caipan.ntrk
RUSvsCHE1/
blue1.ntrk
blue2.ntrk
caipan.ntrk
red1.ntrk
red2.ntrk
RUSvsFIN1/
blue2.ntrk
caipan.ntrk
caipan2.ntrk
red1.ntrk
RUSvsGBR1/
red1.ntrk
final/
CZEvsGBR2/
caipan.ntrk
red1.ntrk
red2.ntrk
CZEvsGBR3/
blue1.ntrk
caipan.ntrk
red2.ntrk
DEUvsRUS1/
Blue1.ntrk
blue2.ntrk
caipan.ntrk
caipan2.ntrk
DEUvsRUS2/
blue1.ntrk
blue2.ntrk
caipan.ntrk
caipan2.ntrk
red22.ntrk
GBRvsGZE/
red1.ntrk
red11.ntrk
pro/
TheBlackDeath.ntrk
quick0001.ntrk
te_ji.ntrk
te_ji1.ntrk
te_ji222.ntrk
top_mast.ntrk
zero_vs_p40.ntrk
</pre>

Unfortunately, there are a bunch of tracks labelled "blue1" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

04-22-2004, 06:46 AM
Rather than picking some track at random, I just watched the ICAS news video, "icas_news_cctv5.avi".

Starting at 8:12 into the video you can see the "Viks" using the prop pitch toggle cheat. Isn't Viks part of the team that won the ICAS competition? Shame on you, Viks, SHAME ON YOU http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

I can't believe anyone would stoop that low.

249th_Harrier
04-22-2004, 07:00 AM
The track I saw was one of the championship matches Russia vs Germany. The track was taken from Viks point of view. Viks team won the match. I don't think his initial advantage was that much, so I think all players were using this exploit, so I am not going to ask Viks to return his trophy :P. If you see this thread Viks, feel free to defend yourself. I still think the format of the competition, dogfights with no time limit, no objectives other than kill each other, is boring.

04-22-2004, 07:23 AM
Boring or not, Viks cheated. Others may have cheated too, but that is no excuse.

Enofinu
04-22-2004, 08:11 AM
WEll, i was in China and =FB=Viks didnt cheat. we all could use same thing to get tiny bit better climb rate, but we didnt use that.
it was not forbidden to use auto/manual prop pitch in competition.
Viks and Storm won because they really are o damn good virtual pilots as are others too who took part on that competition.

stop sayin that they cheated or somethign lame like that. we all had same items what to use. all got referees behind their back in competition and plus audience were looking the fights at big screen.
i myself give high praise for Viks and Storm.

LeLv28_Tiera
04-22-2004, 08:15 AM
No, he did not cheat.

At the beginning of the event, when the rules were confirmed, one of the competitors brought this issue up and it was agreed that everything that the game code made possible would be allowed in the competition.

Anyway, it would have been impossible for the referees to say who was using this exploit, unless the whole use of manual prop pitch would have been probhited.

http://www.hut.fi/~tmynttin/LeLv28Tiera.gif

04-22-2004, 08:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>we all could use same thing to get tiny bit better climb rate, but we didnt use that.
it was not forbidden to use auto/manual prop pitch in competition.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look at the tracks. You are a liar. The pilots are clearly using the auto/manual prop pitch cheat.

04-22-2004, 08:49 AM
You know what. It shouldn't matter to the rest of us what went on at ICAS. I have now watched the Russia vs. Germany blue1 track, and the 109 pilot is clearly exploiting the auto/manual prop pitch in an unrealistic manner.

IMHO that is very unsportsmanlike behavior, and *anyone* caught exploiting that cheat should be disqualified. However, if the ICAS participants all agreed to allow such dweebish behavior, then it's your ballgame. Hope you have fun with it, 'cause I have lost all respect for ICAS.

Erbriac
04-22-2004, 08:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Enofinu:
WEll, i was in China and =FB=Viks didnt cheat. we all could use same thing to get tiny bit better climb rate, but we didnt use that.
it was not forbidden to use auto/manual prop pitch in competition.
Viks and Storm won because they really are o damn good virtual pilots as are others too who took part on that competition.

stop sayin that they cheated or somethign lame like that. we all had same items what to use. all got referees behind their back in competition and plus audience were looking the fights at big screen.
i myself give high praise for Viks and Storm.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the talk here is not about using either auto or manual pitch for climbing. But about programming a macro in your joystick which will very rapidly and constantly change between auto and manual pitch as is easily readable on VikS track. This is the same "cheat" as Trim On a Slider or any other usage of exploiting game bugs to your unfair advantage. And VikS track was the only one where I saw this. I don't know how good he is and I realy don't care, but if he's as good as all you say, does he really needs to "cheat" this way?

****************************
312_Wraith
312. (Czechoslovak) Fighter Sq. RAF
****************************

TgD Thunderbolt56
04-22-2004, 08:57 AM
I've watched most of the tracks myself and the "interesting" use of the Manual/auto prop-pitch toggle does seem questionable: However, someone said it was discussed prior to the competition and was deemed "allowable".

To me, that settles it. If there is such a big issue with it, then maybe they'll change it for the next ICAS...and maybe they'll allow the use of TrackIR and the LB view as well. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

249th_Harrier
04-22-2004, 09:47 AM
Let me get this straight: there was a rules meeting, and the players decided to allow unrealistic bug exploits, and the best exploiter won the competition? Were all the players present at this meeting? I would guess that in the interest of setting a level playing field they would have removed manual prop pich bindkeys to prevent this. Very strange.

GK.
04-22-2004, 09:53 AM
They weren't cheating, everyone knows how to use manual prop pitch anyone who says they were cheating is a noob, sorry. You can achieve the same results by reving your engine in manual, you dont have to assign a button to auto pitch and switch back and forth. That is the advantage of flying german planes, superior climb, acceleration, and engine.

http://data.photodump.com/gk/shidensig.jpg
*Proud Chute Shooter*
"P40's can't out run the zero, so we'll have to outfly them." -Ben Affleck

plumps_
04-22-2004, 09:55 AM
Besides the auto/manual switch the main technical difference between the teams in the 109 vs 109 final was that the German team flew with 75% fuel and Russians with 50% which gave them a climb and turn advantage.

BTW you don't need a makro to switch between auto and manual pitch every second. All you need is one finger and one button.

-----------------------------------
http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/stulogo-banner.jpg (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/)

[This message was edited by plumps_ on Thu April 22 2004 at 09:22 AM.]

Snoop_Baron
04-22-2004, 09:57 AM
I watched the tracks from both blue and red team perspective. Both the Russian and German teams used this technique in the final match.

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

crazyivan1970
04-22-2004, 10:05 AM
Guys, before we jump into cheating accusations, manual prop pitch on 109 series is the real thing. It`s not a bug, or exploit. It was there and did have impact. Does require some training in using it - otherwise buh bye engine.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Lixma
04-22-2004, 10:13 AM
Ivan, it's not the manual pitch i think people are up in arms about. It's the 'prop-pitch on a slider' element. Using a button or macro to rapidly switch between auto and manual to gain advantage. Like the 'trim on a slider' affair it's a case of gaming the sim rather than having a relatively realistic encounter.

I'd like to see it fixed no question but i'm not going to claim USSR would have done any worse by not using the method. They kicked **** and deserved the win.

Lixma
04-22-2004, 10:14 AM
Damn....you can't even say a*r*s*e here anymore ?

crazyivan1970
04-22-2004, 10:20 AM
I understand that Lix and to be honest with you, i have never used it and not going to. 109 has alot to offer without any buttons and sliders. I did some experiments with it and even off keyboard without any sliders it`s possible to do it just as fast IMO. But if you look closely, intervals between going 100% and auto are 3-5 seconds (safe for the engine) , more then enough to push not only key on keyboard, enough to pull lever , or whatever was used to change manual prop pitch on those planes. I can`t remember where, but i think Oleg commented on it as something that will stay there because it was a real feature - not taking slider under consideration of course.

Before you guys start murdering me - i am not defending this feature, it just doesn`t bother me, that`s all.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

plumps_
04-22-2004, 10:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Guys, before we jump into cheating accusations, manual prop pitch on 109 series is the real thing. It`s not a bug, or exploit. It was there and did have impact. Does require some training in using it - otherwise buh bye engine.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't think that switching to 100% INSTANTLY when you toggle from auto to manual is the real thing. When you switch automatic off the same pitch value should remain set that the automatic used. [Is this understandable English?]

-----------------------------------
http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/stulogo-banner.jpg (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/)

plumps_
04-22-2004, 10:35 AM
The point is that switching between auto and manual every second does NOT need the training that a proper use of manual pitch requires.

At least in my understanding; I don't know how it really worked but I can't imagine that it's modeled correctly.

-----------------------------------
http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/stulogo-banner.jpg (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/)

04-22-2004, 10:37 AM
Plumps is right.

The problem is not the basic ability to change between manual and auto.

The problem is that SWITCHING RAPIDLY BETWEEN 2 modes exploits the sim, giving unrealistic performance.

Anyone defending manual prop pitch as a non-cheat is simply confused. Correct, but confused. Nobody ever said manual pitch was a cheat in the first place.

Cossack_UA
04-22-2004, 10:38 AM
I'm using keybord to swithch between auto and manual pitch, so "quick button assignment" is irrelevent. You can be as quick with just a keyboard.

Onother observation: you DON'T HAVE to switch back and forth all the time. When i climb, i turn manual pitch on and set pitch to reach 3000 RPM or alittle bit more. After i'm done climbing i swith back to auto so i don't have to worry about overraving the enging during the dives.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/z159x753-ukrairforce.jpg

I_am_the_Server
04-22-2004, 10:44 AM
I do sometime with the 190's 100 % , 80% and come back to auto to slow down the props like gears..

WhiskeyRiver
04-22-2004, 12:13 PM
It would have destroyed/damaged the engine in real life. It's cheating.

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint Eastwood

Thera
04-22-2004, 12:49 PM
I think some of you guys are a bit confused. This competition is not some type of historic reenactment get together. It's a sporting event where you use every tool that the game gives you to win.

Both sides used the the auto-manual exploit. The real cheating comes when German pilots flying in VEF, or some other virtual war, use the bug to get an advantage for non-cheat enabled planes.

raaaid
04-22-2004, 01:41 PM
how can i view this ntrk files what do i need to watch them?

SlickStick
04-22-2004, 04:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by raaaid:
how can i view this ntrk files what do i need to watch them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Put the downloaded tracks into your Records folder, within the Main FB folder. Then, you start the game and play tracks from the Main Menu.

___________________________
çk"*¯k 2004

http://imageshack.us/files/sigSpitIX.JPG
Coming Soon to a Six near you...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

VikS
04-22-2004, 04:43 PM
Yep, i can speak for myselfhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
So heres myne comments.
About rules of ICAS:
before the competition at the pre-flight breafing an German team member have asked about manual pitch usin, and judjes have gave an answer - "everything that allowed by the code of the game are allowed to use on the competition".

About DB605 Engine Rpms:
as i know, this engine was capable to hold 3-3,5k rpms for some moments in emergensy, and all 109s have an auto/manual switch on/off.
The mostly funny situation, that when ive have asked Oleg about it, he sas that after on some version of the patch this "uber power for some seconds" was removd from 109s, many LW fans have started to WHINE about it - kinda "why ya have removd such future" an "uberrussian planes politic again" and same equal sh*t. So Oleg was pushd to bring that future back.
So im askin - whos the fan of manual pitch on 109s huh??!!

About why its was used as one button on/off?
As someone in upper posts said - ya can gain same results by usin only rotary binded to prop pitch change.
BUT
1st - imagine how much time it gonna take to hold RPMs under safe number, cause ya need to control RPMs all the time by movin rotary - or ya gonna fried up ur engine as well, btw ya can see that on a German team ntrk while they was flyin in finals against us an 109s.
Rotary just takes MORE time from yer attention, when ya also need to watch around ya, control yer plane etc.
And also button thing - is much safer than the rotary one, to prevent a mistake which will burn ur engine.
Is that clear?

Next one:
almost EVERYONE was usin prop pitch while was flyin on 109s, and also - why didnt ya call German team a cheaters for axample? They was workin by prop potch in almost the same manner, and they have gained THE SAME alt when were was in HO with them.
Oh wait.... ya tryin to catch some Russian cheaters again or what?

And also, the prop pitch on 109s gives an adv only in climbs or at wery low speeds, cause on high speeds the blades of 109 prop, if ya usin an manual control will make an higher airflow brakin - means ya goin to lost yer speed (ya gonna have high RPMs - but no speed), and ya can try to test it byurself.

And some comments for the losers, which aint able to knew the subject of usin their plane in full power, so when someone shootin em down in same plane they scream - cheater:
GO PLAY SIMS MORONS! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

PS: sorry for mine ugly englishhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

crazyivan1970
04-22-2004, 04:49 PM
Zdorova Vitek http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

VikS
04-22-2004, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Zdorova Vitek http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Zdarov Ivanhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif hot` shto nibud` iz vishenapisannogo ponatno? Ato s angl grammatikoy ya sovershenno ne druzuhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

crazyivan1970
04-22-2004, 04:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VikS:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Zdorova Vitek http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Zdarov Ivanhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif hot` shto nibud` iz vishenapisannogo ponatno? Ato s angl grammatikoy ya sovershenno ne druzuhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bolee chem ponyatno. Gramotno vsex polozhil http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/smileys-gun2.gif

Tolko vot dyrachkami ne obzivai, a to oni grazhdane chystvitelnie http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

VikS
04-22-2004, 04:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Tolko vot dyrachkami ne obzivai, a to oni grazhdane chystvitelnie http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dik ti dumaesh pochemu ya ih v sims poslal? Pust` poigraut, raschustvuutsa http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
A potom, veschi nuzno nazivat` svoimi imenamihttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

crazyivan1970
04-22-2004, 04:59 PM
Da ya to ponimau http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

TooCooL34
04-22-2004, 05:17 PM
Cheat or not cheat, it was just ridiculous to me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

I thought he was using manual prop pitch at least by continuous pitch key or separate slider..but what? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif Flipping between auto and manual like doggy caught fire on its tail? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

-----------------

=815=TooCooL34,=815=Squadron

-= 8 1 5 =- FB Dedi Server is coming soon. (with AEP Dedicated Server)
100Mb IDC line, P4 2.8G server.
Full real but limited icon, minimap path and spdbar.
You can expect something, since I run the server myself. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

04-22-2004, 05:23 PM
Ya ponyal tozhe...

But the bottom line remains: toggling back and forth between manual and auto exploits the FM, providing greater performance than plain manual pitch.

Constantly flipping between modes is cheating.

So, your pilots' meeting agreed to allow anything the software permits? Did anyone press the printscreen key rapidly to escape? Did you turn down the video to low quality and fly at 800x600 for greater visibility of dots? Did you turn off hardware audio accelleration to get the "sonar" behefits?

Come on... some problems in the sim are unavoidable, yet there is NO EXCUSE for exploiting such hacks. The ICAS people were supposed to be representatives of the IL-2 community for the rest of the world. Why can't they fly the sim as it was meant to be flown? Your unsportsmanlike antics make IL-2 look like a joke arcade game, rather than the sophisiticated simulator that it aspires to be.

Skalgrim
04-22-2004, 05:42 PM
oleg has first remove those pitch advantage for the next patch and then give return, because he fear luftwhinner?


german forum nobody like this advantage, think most want that it will fix

too when you not use that advantage and many use that not,

all the other think you use those trick, when you make to many viktory with 109



[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikS:


The mostly funny situation, that when ive have asked Oleg about it, he sas that after on some version of the patch this "uber power for some seconds" was removd from 109s, many LW fans have started to WHINE about it - kinda "why ya have removd such future" an "uberrussian planes politic again" and same equal sh*t. So Oleg was pushd to bring that future back.
So im askin - whos the fan of manual pitch on 109s huh??!!

[This message was edited by Skalgrim on Thu April 22 2004 at 05:20 PM.]

Interceptor_33
04-22-2004, 05:44 PM
privet ...
puskai plakajut http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif..
hey VikS .. tak kak wse eta polsawali (prob pitch) ja teba pasdravlaju i storm tochi chto wi wigrali !!

hey ..at all .. its not a bug or cheat !!
lets see !!
if you fly a real 109 in a war you need this for a long time .. about to max 100 fly houers !
so if you use to often an max an RPM you can kill you engine like in the game !! but lets see !!
how long you fly it .. one or max 2h ?!?!
an than landing and use a new engine !
so this prob pitch is reality and not a cheat or bug (ok its not fair to the one who dont know this but its like all other in flying).
you can use this in reality too ! but .. how many times ? and how long ? .. if you used it to often you must do an full engine reparing after 50H and not 100 or after 20h .. but in this game you never fly the same engine !
if this is an cheat .. than you cant fly as often all do with 110% and an maximum of engine overheating !
cause in reality they dont do that much too !!
only in critical situations .. but in FB (its a game) it comes more often in such situations !!

so be cool !!!

?-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-?
http://img24.photobucket.com/albums/v73/Interceptor_33/1JG77_sig.jpg
?-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-?
Der Weg ist das Ziel !
Nicht das T¶ten !

TooCooL34
04-22-2004, 06:09 PM
W H A T ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
What about using some more CAPS?
I'm cool enough.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Interceptor_33:
privet ...
puskai plakajut http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif..
hey VikS .. tak kak wse eta polsawali (prob pitch) ja teba pasdravlaju i storm tochi chto wi wigrali !!

hey ..at all .. its not a bug or cheat !!
lets see !!
if you fly a real 109 in a war you need this for a long time .. about to max 100 fly houers !
so if you use to often an max an RPM you can kill you engine like in the game !! but lets see !!
how long you fly it .. one or max 2h ?!?!
an than landing and use a new engine !
so this prob pitch is reality and not a cheat or bug (ok its not fair to the one who dont know this but its like all other in flying).
you can use this in reality too ! but .. how many times ? and how long ? .. if you used it to often you must do an full engine reparing after 50H and not 100 or after 20h .. but in this game you never fly the same engine !
if this is an cheat .. than you cant fly as often all do with 110% and an maximum of engine overheating !
cause in reality they dont do that much too !!
only in critical situations .. but in FB (its a game) it comes more often in such situations !!

so be cool !!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

-----------------

=815=TooCooL34,=815=Squadron

-= 8 1 5 =- FB Dedi Server is coming soon. (with AEP Dedicated Server)
100Mb IDC line, P4 2.8G server.
Full real but limited icon, minimap path and spdbar.
You can expect something, since I run the server myself. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

249th_Harrier
04-22-2004, 07:29 PM
I think the real issue is this: does the game approximate the actual engagement/disengagement of auto prop pitch. From Ivan's post, it seems Oleg is satisfied that it is an acceptable approximation, and that is enough proof for me. I have read accounts of I-16 pilots disengaging the auto-pitch and using manual mode in-flight, so it doesn't seem too far-fetched. One of the things I like about this game is the strategies that you discover on your own a lot of times end up being the ones actually used in WWII. I would be curious how LW pilots used prop pitch.

I think some of the accusations of cheating were a bit mean and inappropriate, and unrelated to my original post. Can't we all just get along?

plumps_
04-22-2004, 08:45 PM
Currently we have two automatic systems for prop pitch in the Bf-109:

System #1 controls the pitch while 'automatic' is on.
System #2 remembers the last manual value that had been set and changes the pitch to that value as soon as system #1 is switched off.

If you switch between 'auto' and 'manual' quickly you don't really use manual pitch but you switch between two automatic systems without ever using manual control.

I don't think that anybody from the German side wants to have automatic system #2. We want to switch between auto and manual without the magical pitch memory which in fact looks like a feature of a computer game and not like a simulation of reality.

In fact system #2 is what kept me from using manual prop pitch in the Bf-109 most of the time because the default manual value is 100% and the engine will overrev within a few seconds if you switch to manual at high speed.

That's why I always considered this to be a handicap for the Bf-109. ICAS has shown that it can be exploited as an advantage if you use manual in an unrealistic way.

-----------------------------------
http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/stulogo-banner.jpg (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/)

Snoop_Baron
04-22-2004, 11:43 PM
I can confirm what Viks said. I looked at the tracks and not only do both sides use this technique (which may or may not be realistic, I don't know) but they were both at about the same energy state when they reached their respective baloons. Take a look for yourself.

s!

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

TX-EcoDragon
04-22-2004, 11:43 PM
Don't sweat it VikS.

The rules were agreed apon, the method (im not sure if it gives much advantage anyway)
was available to all, and if you watch the videos this single technique probably had very little, to no effect on the outcome anyway. at there inbound turns they were very near co-alt, certainly close enough that it could have gone either way as they turned to face each other.

This competition was a great step towards bringing IL-2:FB into the eye of more of the public, and those who participated are all owed a hearty S!

S!
TX-EcoDragon
Black 1
TX Squadron XO
http://www.txsquadron.com

Member-Team Raven
http://www.waynehandley.com

First Slot Pilot Aircraft #4 of the Virtual Haute-Voltige Team
http://www.vhvt.com/

http://www.attitudeaviation.com/

http://www.txsquadron.com/uploaded/TX-EcoDragon/ravenvert.jpg

Fehler
04-23-2004, 12:46 AM
Some of you are just plain silly!

First of all, it's a shame that Oleg reinstated the "uber" power state in the 109 when using manual pitch. The funny thing about the Kommandgarant (SP) was that it's sole advantage over a constant speed prop was that it did not allow for runaway in a dive. Complex Engine Management in the sim is really not too complex, and the most simplified prop is actually the hardest to use.

That said, I will defend Viks here for a moment. I have flown against him many times all the way back when I was totally new to flight sims. I remember asking him some advice, and although his English is not the best, he did offer me some really great tips. The fact is, as ICAS demonstrates, he is a very good pilot. He knows his plane (Back in the day it was the P-39) better than his opponants, and uses the sims features to his advantage. Put yourself in a real plane in a real war, wouldnt you like to know every little aspect of your plane and be able to use it to the fullest? You sure would because it would save your life, and probably your wingman's life as well.

The rules of the tourny were set, and everyone abided by them. Saying that anyone played within the rules, yet were cheating is pure nonsense. Now, other people's ignorance is not Viks' fault. That would be like saying Viks cheated because he knew his plane X could outturn his enemy plane Y at Z speed and alt. How is good piloting cheating? If you are flying the 109 regularly, and dont understand how to use trim, manual pitch, and flaps, then I suggest you learn. If you fly against it, I suggest you learn how to manipulate your best turn speeds and use your planes strengths against the 109!

If the game has a flaw, and I think it does with respect to the 109, then it should be fixed. The reason it hasnt is obvious, but I really dont think it's about German/Russian bias. Once people learn their plane and it's little quirks, they are not very happy to find out 3 months later that all their hard work has been changed. This is especially true when the developer says, "This is as real as it gets!" Again, this is not meant to disrespect Oleg. But people here fail to realize that as Oleg gets better at building the sim, the sim gets more realistic. Some things are changed because they were not correct in the first place, even though they were thought to be correct originally. Such is life, and although I dont understand all the things that go into making a flight sim, I do think this is the best one that has been made to date.

Most of the Luftwhining comes from the inability to accept changes, good or bad, with the understanding that Oleg changes things as he becomes aware of something that is wrong.

I do think that if we had runaway prop effects in CSP systems, you would see how much more complex, complex engine management really is. And that the manual lsettings of the 109 should not allow you to get unrealistic gains in the engine.

As for Viks, his post seems a bit irritable. He has the right in my opinion. He is a very good pilot, and because of that, he has been labeled a "Cheater" for a long time in a lot of different arenas. I am glad he was finally able to come out, under close supervision and show the whole IL2 community that he is really as good as he looks.

Congratulations Storm and Viks! Very good flying! And you guys beat some very very good competition!

And for you pathetic cheat whiners, please give these guys some respect. They played by the rules. If the rules are flawed, it is not their fault. If the game is flawed, it is not their fault. If you are flawed, it IS your fault!

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

DemonMSK
04-23-2004, 01:30 AM
To Harrier, cosmokart, Erbriac ...
Why Viks is cheater? There were refferees and they could saw everything he did. So if he wins - it was no broken rules of tournament.

Rules were - everything aloved by game.

Propably you want to say: We lost championship because pilots from Russia used cheaters devices such as keyboard, mouse and joystick?

His opponents didn't make protest, so they were agreed with his fligt manner.

Viks is superpilot, he knowes all about his plane and opponents planes, including planty of nonevident things.
I use championshp traks as study tracks, i cant fly like Viks, so if we meet - he will kill me 100 times in 100 contests. But this means that it would be better to me to study before.

Erbriac
04-23-2004, 02:33 AM
Not only him. Everyone else who uses FM exploits to gain advantage over his adversaries is. What if someone discovers that you can achieve greater speeds with constantly and rapidly lowering and raising your undercarriage? I know its a BS, just for illustration. So in the next ICAS tracks we will see planes flying with half down wheels? Just because everything possible in the game is allowed? Great.

Doesn't matter, I much more respect pilots who although lose, but flew "fair", without resorting to FM exploits.

****************************
312_Wraith
312. (Czechoslovak) Fighter Sq. RAF
****************************

VikS
04-23-2004, 02:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Some of you are just plain silly!

First of all, it's a shame that Oleg reinstated the "uber" power state in the 109 when using manual pitch. The funny thing about the Kommandgarant (SP) was that it's sole advantage over a constant speed prop was that it did not allow for runaway in a dive. Complex Engine Management in the sim is really not too complex, and the most simplified prop is actually the hardest to use.

That said, I will defend Viks here for a moment. I have flown against him many times all the way back when I was totally new to flight sims. I remember asking him some advice, and although his English is not the best, he did offer me some really great tips. The fact is, as ICAS demonstrates, he is a very good pilot. He knows his plane (Back in the day it was the P-39) better than his opponants, and uses the sims features to his advantage. Put yourself in a real plane in a real war, wouldnt you like to know every little aspect of your plane and be able to use it to the fullest? You sure would because it would save your life, and probably your wingman's life as well.

The rules of the tourny were set, and everyone abided by them. Saying that anyone played within the rules, yet were cheating is pure nonsense. Now, other people's ignorance is not Viks' fault. That would be like saying Viks cheated because he knew his plane X could outturn his enemy plane Y at Z speed and alt. How is good piloting cheating? If you are flying the 109 regularly, and dont understand how to use trim, manual pitch, and flaps, then I suggest you learn. If you fly against it, I suggest you learn how to manipulate your best turn speeds and use your planes strengths against the 109!

If the game has a flaw, and I think it does with respect to the 109, then it should be fixed. The reason it hasnt is obvious, but I really dont think it's about German/Russian bias. Once people learn their plane and it's little quirks, they are not very happy to find out 3 months later that all their hard work has been changed. This is especially true when the developer says, "This is as real as it gets!" Again, this is not meant to disrespect Oleg. But people here fail to realize that as Oleg gets better at building the sim, the sim gets more realistic. Some things are changed because they were not correct in the first place, even though they were thought to be correct originally. Such is life, and although I dont understand all the things that go into making a flight sim, I do think this is the best one that has been made to date.

Most of the Luftwhining comes from the inability to accept changes, good or bad, with the understanding that Oleg changes things as he becomes aware of something that is wrong.

I do think that if we had runaway prop effects in CSP systems, you would see how much more complex, complex engine management really is. And that the manual lsettings of the 109 should not allow you to get unrealistic gains in the engine.

As for Viks, his post seems a bit irritable. He has the right in my opinion. He is a very good pilot, and because of that, he has been labeled a "Cheater" for a long time in a lot of different arenas. I am glad he was finally able to come out, under close supervision and show the whole IL2 community that he is really as good as he looks.

Congratulations Storm and Viks! Very good flying! And you guys beat some very very good competition!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thx Fehler.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
And for you pathetic cheat whiners, please give these guys some respect. They played by the rules. If the rules are flawed, it is not their fault. If the game is flawed, it is not their fault. If you are flawed, it IS _your_ fault!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But ya know, i cant give an respect for such persons, cause there nothing from them to respect.

VikS
04-23-2004, 03:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erbriac:
Not only him. Everyone else who uses FM exploits to gain advantage over his adversaries is.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its an prop pitch future, which can be used by ANYONE, ofcourse if he have hands and brains.
But looks like someones havent such "futures" in their head http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
What if someone discovers that you can achieve greater speeds with constantly and rapidly lowering and raising your undercarriage? I know its a BS, just for illustration.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

dude, do ya have any nightmares maybe? ya afraid to live or smph?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
So in the next ICAS tracks we will see planes flying with half down wheels? Just because everything possible in the game is allowed? Great.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

maybe, but im absolutely sure, that such ones like you willnt be there even if prop pitch use willnt be a;;owed to use, BUT im sure that ya will find other "magicexploits" to blame ppl from forum.
Its yer fate maybe?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Doesn't matter, I much more respect pilots who although lose, but flew "fair", without resorting to FM exploits.
****************************
312_Wraith
312. (Czechoslovak) Fighter Sq. RAF
****************************
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, im already know that song - everyone that has in myne sight and im shootin him down - plays "fair", but that one who shoots down me - an cheater!

Strange.... but I have already got used to this situation...

CaptainGelo
04-23-2004, 03:16 AM
every1 who says that its cheating or exploits are noobs and dont know what they are talking about.....SO SHUT UP! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif
"Big Bills suck, small Bills don't"&lt;----WRONG!!!! all Bills suck http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LeLv28_Masi
04-23-2004, 03:37 AM
It is ridicilous to call Viks a cheater.


-LeLv28_Masi-

04-23-2004, 04:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snoop_Baron:
I can confirm what Viks said. I looked at the tracks and not only do both sides use this technique (which may or may not be realistic, I don't know) but they were both at about the same energy state when they reached their respective baloons. Take a look for yourself.

s!

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe it.

Viks, please understand that we're not accusing you alone. Respect http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The ICAS pilots were merely "gaming the game". According to their rules, anything goes, regardless of whether it's in the spirit of flight simming.

It's equivalent to a Counterstrike Tournament where everyone agreed that wallhacks were OK. Those were the rules - no point in complaining.

MatuDa
04-23-2004, 04:11 AM
OMFG.

If everyone agreed that it is ok to exploit the weaknesses of the code then wtf is the problem? Did you pay for the competition? Lose much sleep over it? Have a tough childhood? Problems figuring out what is the real life and what is a GAME FFS?

Viks deserves the victory and an apology from some.

It's a game. Keep repeating that until you understand.

MatuDa
04-23-2004, 04:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cosmokart:
It's equivalent to a Counterstrike Tournament where everyone agreed that wallhacks were OK. Those were the rules - no point in complaining.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No-one installed any additional software to gain the edge. Only full usage of FB.

It's more like allowing planting high in cs when only one ct is alive and thus not able to defuse. It is possible to do that in the game but frowned upon mostly as unsportsmanlike. And it is NOT cheating. Wallhacking is not comparable.

VikS
04-23-2004, 05:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cosmokart:
It's equivalent to a Counterstrike Tournament where everyone agreed that wallhacks were OK. Those were the rules - no point in complaining.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ghmm, ya know, when ya talkin about "simmers" "gamers" and CS, ya smells like hmmmm - Siggi http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

crazyivan1970
04-23-2004, 05:53 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

LeLv28_Tiera
04-23-2004, 06:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VikS:
ghmm, ya know, when ya talkin about "simmers" "gamers" and CS, ya smells like hmmmm - Siggi http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My thoughts exactly http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Although he claims to be away at the moment...

http://www.hut.fi/~tmynttin/LeLv28Tiera.gif

[This message was edited by LeLv28_Tiera on Fri April 23 2004 at 05:22 AM.]

BBB_Hyperion
04-23-2004, 09:49 AM
Its funny somehow most of the cheating things have been removed from manual/auto mode and still people complain. Its not all realistic how it is represented in FB , AEP but was possible to increase or decrease Blade position with the push of a button. The remembering of old pitch position may take a major part in this advantage
in FB. But even when its not represeted 100 % correct it was possible to use it.

We remember in older versions of FB where the topspeed increase with manual pitch at about 65 % and then the yoyo effect of about 10+ km/h more by using manual pitch and switching back and forth from 65 to 70.
That all doesnt work anymore that were exploits.

Here some tests

K4 Test ignoring overheat message
Climb 110 % MW50 Rad closed crimea 2.0 Auto Pitch
5 k 2:45 +-5s Min

Climb 110 % MW50 Rad auto crimea 2.0 Manual
5 k 2:34 +-5s Min about 3000 rpm average

Climb 110 % MW50 Rad closed crimea 2.0 Manual
5 k 2:33 +-5s Min about 3000 rpm average

Climb 110 % MW50 Rad closed crimea 2.0 Manual/Auto

5 k 2:23 +-5s Min

Did record the tracks when someone is intrested.
While the rpm are at higher average we can exspect higher output but sooner engine problems.

The rpm got over 3300 rpm for short while switching back and forth auto/manual pitch.

We can simulate this in manual mode but with this auto/manual you can work at the overrev limit without much risc it might be possible to archive the same with pitch on a slider compared to Auto/Manual. With pitch changes around 5 % its not that accurate to get best values for Manual maybe someone with this setup can test it should be close to Auto/Manual.

Dont know why this shouldnt be possible irl but if the engine could really stand this high rpm. But you surely need a new one when gliding back.

Regards,
Hyperion

Platypus_1.JaVA
04-23-2004, 10:04 AM
I've flown against FB=viks myself during the European Il-2 Championships and I can tell you, he can win with or without cheat. The FB team is also the European champion.

Anyways, it isn't a cheat, it is just something we can (and should) all use. If you don't use it, it is like constantly flying with 90% throttle. In the real war, pilots also learned themselves some tricks to get the most of their machine's and win the battle. Il-2 FB AEP is such a complex sim that there are always 'backdoors' or features so that your aircraft has that tiny bit of performance more then the enemies.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/JaVAPlatypus-1java.JPG (http://www.1java.org)

WUAF_Badsight
04-23-2004, 01:16 PM
OMG i just read some peoples comments

i cant believe there are some who didnt know about the increase of performance that Manuel pitch gives you

THIS IS NOT A NEW THING

Bf-109 pilots have been fiddeling with manuel Pitch for increased performance SINCE FB v 1.0 ! ! !

WUAF_Badsight
04-23-2004, 01:19 PM
do you realise that pitch is BETTER now ?

in FB v 1.0 it was incredible !

the Bf-109 could be set to 100% for even level flight nearly

if you didnt ever bother to use or test what Manuel pitch could do ..... Thats YOUR problem

these accusations of cheat calling are unbelieveable ! !

Enofinu
04-30-2004, 08:24 AM
yes, stop childish complaining and Kneel front of me!!!
and gimme one beer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Cheers Icas mates

urs: LLv34_Stafroty