PDA

View Full Version : What percentage of American victories were scored on the ground?



patch_adams
07-19-2004, 04:40 PM
I know the ballpark figure is like 75%, but anyone have exact numbers for the European theatre?

patch_adams
07-19-2004, 04:40 PM
I know the ballpark figure is like 75%, but anyone have exact numbers for the European theatre?

CPS_Talon
07-19-2004, 04:53 PM
American victory tallies count only A2A kills. Kills made on the ground weren't scored the same. So when you read of an american ace with 30 something kills those are pure air kills.

Clear skies and tailwinds,
Chuck

aGunfighter
07-19-2004, 04:56 PM
I think this Mr.Patch Adams is a punk.

arcadeace
07-19-2004, 05:23 PM
I think you guys responding know what's going on. Kills attributed to pilots in every nation were air-to-air. If the original poster has genuine curiosity I suggest he explain his intent. I do think an accurate percentage, for any nation, would be difficult to confirm.

patch_adams
07-19-2004, 05:48 PM
Incorrect. Planes destroyed on the ground by the USAF were counted as victories, thats indisputable. My intent is the pursuit of knowledge and enlightenment.

BlackShrike
07-19-2004, 05:53 PM
ground planes were not counted as air to air kills towards becoming an ace. otherwise there would be many more aces

Zyzbot
07-19-2004, 05:55 PM
"In the China-Burma-India theater and the 8th Air Force, aircraft destroyed on the ground were officially credited as "kills" just as if they had fallen in aerial combat. In the European, North African, and Pacific theaters, they were not credited."

I have always found that "kills" on the ground while credited...are listed separately and not included in air to air totals.

For example:

28 Francis D Gabreski, LtCol USAAF (+ 2.5 ground)
25.8 George E Preddy Jr, Maj USAAF (+ 5 ground)
24 John C Meyer, LtCol USAAF (+ 13 ground)
23 Donald S Gentile, Capt USAAF (+ 7 ground)
22.6 Ray S Wetmore, Capt USAAF (+ 2 ground)
22.5 David C Schilling, Col USAAF (+ 10.5 ground)

Additonally...I found a ssource that says that US pilots claimed 10,720 AIR kills and 8,160 GROUND kills in Europe. That would make the figure about 43% of claimed destroyed.

Another source claims that more American aces were "lost" to flak while ground strafing than were shot down by German fighters.

[This message was edited by Zyzbot on Mon July 19 2004 at 05:30 PM.]

horseback
07-19-2004, 06:55 PM
It is a fact that most if not all USAAF aces with more than 15 air to air kills lost over Germany were lost to ground fire. There appears to be a statistical line which, once crossed, makes it unlikely (Note: unlikely, not impossible. USAAF aces rarely came back to the ETO for another round of combat. The LW experten had hugely greater numbes of sorties, and far more of their combat sorties were spent in contact with their enemies) for a pilot to either be challenged by another ace in the proverbial standup fight or surprised by an aggressive beginner.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

GvSAP_Dart
07-19-2004, 07:56 PM
I think almost all of them were on the ground. You know how hard it is to score in flight?

Heck, most women weren't allowed on the flight line, let alone in an airplane!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

____________________________________
http://www.darts-page.com for more foolishness

Atomic_Marten
07-19-2004, 08:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>patch_adams
Incorrect. Planes destroyed on the ground by the USAF were counted as victories, thats indisputable. My intent is the pursuit of knowledge and enlightenment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh boy then those guys that are dropping their bomb loads behind norden-bombsights from flying fortresses were quite an aces even without knowing it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Copperhead310th
07-19-2004, 08:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch_adams:
Incorrect. Planes destroyed on the ground by the USAF were counted as victories, thats indisputable. My intent is the pursuit of knowledge and enlightenment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok well allow me to post this to clear up any misunderstandings.

USAAF Victory Rules- WWII: Source USAF Historical Research Agenecy @ Maxwell AFB. (http://www.310thvfs.com/USAAFvictoryrules.php)

http://imageshack.us/files/copper%20sig%20with%20rank.jpg
310th FS & 380th BG website (http://www.310thVFS.com)

Bull_dog_
07-19-2004, 08:59 PM
Patch is right in that there was a deliberate change in Europe to credit ground kills in order to motivate mustang pilots (and others) to brave groundfire and AAA to attrit the Luftwaffe when they wouldn't or couldn't come up to fight.

I am only aware of this occuring in Europe, but I don't claim to be an expert so there may be others...I will say this, most resources I've read they separate ground and air kills so I think most statistics talk about air kills or list them separately. I don't think it was common practice in other theaters to do this so I expect most kill numbers are A2A...my $.02

Cajun76
07-20-2004, 02:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch_adams:
.... My intent is the pursuit of knowledge and enlightenment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Excellent! Try here: www.google.com (http://www.google.com)

Should help avoid those embarrassing questions that make you appear to be unmotivated to look things up yourself. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?