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OldMan____
08-25-2004, 07:26 PM
I observed that in this forum the majority of Luft pilots prefer the Bf109 plane, while still most say do use Energy fighting.

I wanna ask why ? I reaaly have a hard time trying to understand. I fly both a lot, and I can not see how the 109 is better (specially at low alt combat). The 190 is more maneuverable, specally when countin not only roll, but the fast short term respose of all its commands. I can make lot more of precise shooting due to this ability of twisting last instant to shoot precisely. Also the firepower is not comparable and you do not have to worry with ammo. Usually speed is also superior.

Only 109 advantage I can see is climb and slow speed handling. Since slow speed is only for emergencies.. only climb is in equation.

So why people seems to make better resultson the 109? I am trying a lot to improve my 109 skills so I can match my 190 results. So I wanna know.

Why (for the 109 aces) do you choose 109? Do you 109 guys just commit to turn and burn, piloting it like an spitfire? Or there is something extra?

Dont wanna start any flaming.. just wanna find out why the hell I cant suceed in 109 againt fights I would find easy on 190 (same year)

Just to be clear. I speak about full real setup.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

OldMan____
08-25-2004, 07:26 PM
I observed that in this forum the majority of Luft pilots prefer the Bf109 plane, while still most say do use Energy fighting.

I wanna ask why ? I reaaly have a hard time trying to understand. I fly both a lot, and I can not see how the 109 is better (specially at low alt combat). The 190 is more maneuverable, specally when countin not only roll, but the fast short term respose of all its commands. I can make lot more of precise shooting due to this ability of twisting last instant to shoot precisely. Also the firepower is not comparable and you do not have to worry with ammo. Usually speed is also superior.

Only 109 advantage I can see is climb and slow speed handling. Since slow speed is only for emergencies.. only climb is in equation.

So why people seems to make better resultson the 109? I am trying a lot to improve my 109 skills so I can match my 190 results. So I wanna know.

Why (for the 109 aces) do you choose 109? Do you 109 guys just commit to turn and burn, piloting it like an spitfire? Or there is something extra?

Dont wanna start any flaming.. just wanna find out why the hell I cant suceed in 109 againt fights I would find easy on 190 (same year)

Just to be clear. I speak about full real setup.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

p1ngu666
08-25-2004, 07:48 PM
erm better climb, sometimes speed.

worse guns, worse place for guns (imo), stiff elivator, resonable turn at best.
cant head on either tbh

109 is easier to fly, but harder in combat to fly
190 harder to fly, easier in combat

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
<123_GWood_JG123> NO SPAM!

LEXX_Luthor
08-25-2004, 08:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I speak about full real setup.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We speak full arcade until we speak about range (no "real" anything on internet maps).

...range is another feather in the Fw cowling. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



__________________
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"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

carguy_
08-25-2004, 08:05 PM
-Me109 has better visibility even with old canopy

-Me109 is great at stallfighting

-Me109 has little bombrack

-there aren`t Me109 models that you have to fly with the bombrack http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

-ME109 climbs significantly better than most planes

-I saw it first time in WWII fotages http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-most aces flew Me109 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

-Me109 is unbeatable when flown by an ace http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

-Me109 isn`t hurt as much by Oleg`s image as it is with FW190 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

-Me109 isn`t Oleg`s favorite http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

-Me109 resembles TIE fighter with it`s rugged look http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

-Me109 is easier to land than FW190

-Me109 is THE plane Luftwhiners have been fighting to be modelled realisticaly since release of IL2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

-Me109 doesn`t have gay bubble canopy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

-Me109 has many variants

-Me109 wasn`t the plane that had the "pilot killed" bug all the way to FB http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

-Me109 is more friendly than FW190

and for the most part I have flown Me109 exclusively since May 2002.

VWF-I`ve flown 38 sorties in FW190;airkills:1 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

OldMan____
08-25-2004, 08:16 PM
Ok you gave some reasons...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:
-Me109 has better visibility even with old canopy
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what? I find exactly the opposite.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
-Me109 is great at stallfighting
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

true.. but why the hell would I stall fight? Is that the 109 " secret" ?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
-Me109 has little bombrack

-there aren`t Me109 models that you have to fly with the bombrack http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

-ME109 climbs significantly better than most planes

-I saw it first time in WWII fotages http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-most aces flew Me109 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok up to here..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
-Me109 is unbeatable when flown by an ace http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


..did anyone had time to explain that to spitfire flyers?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
-Me109 isn`t hurt as much by Oleg`s image as it is with FW190 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

-Me109 isn`t Oleg`s favorite http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

in fact think 190 is quite well modelled.. except in climb and dive

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
-Me109 is easier to land than FW190
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what woth being easier to land if you don´t survive until landing?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
-Me109 doesn`t have gay bubble canopy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

disadvantage

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

AnaK774
08-25-2004, 08:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:


VWF-I`ve flown 38 sorties in FW190;airkills:1 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man, u must have been doing something wrong there http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AKA LeOs.K_Anak

p1ngu666
08-25-2004, 08:26 PM
hm
ive had some fights vs pro 109 pilots in il2
um i beat the first (just) he cut off my wingtip, misc damage and both my cannons.
then he ran away and clipped a hill http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

2nd time i got fed up and rtb'ed, while he had mig3u swarm over him http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

pro l09 pilots because of way they flew, massive ammounts of pacicents.

btw, i think the g10 is best late war 109

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2004, 08:34 PM
I think the problem here is that people don't recognize the terrible significance of that climb rate.

When you encounter someone who knows how to really use it to put your nuts in the wringer, and makes you helpless, and toys with you before diving in for the haymaker... then you start to realize how precious that climb rate can be. Most planes can dive at least fairly well. But only a few climb very well. And it's always harder to go up than it is to go down.

I can remember back years ago when I was a "FW-head" and didn't know what the 109 was really about. One of the better Warbirds pilots showed me the secrets of the 109. It was incredibly eye opening. Funny, now I am not that great in a FW190...

FI WILLIE
08-25-2004, 08:47 PM
I like the 109's for the reason Stiglr mentioned.

I am becoming very adept at making smoking holes with the 190. I find it to be a beast to fly well. Maybe some day I'll figure it out, as for now.... I get frustrated and jump back in a 109. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BTW I am a very mediocre 109 driver. I don't find it difficult to land anymore though.

Virtus Junxit,
Mors Non Separabit.
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Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati


(When all else fails, play dead.)
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meh_cd
08-25-2004, 08:57 PM
Deflection shooting is easier, and the 109 doesn't bounce around when you fire the cannons. (Unless of course you have the 108)

WaffenKatze
08-25-2004, 09:59 PM
first my first language isnt english. and Im not whining or flaming.

the Climb rate can provid Accelation so 109 had great climb rate means it has great accelation aswell. (for climb rate. yes another fact affect on climb rate, but majority fact is Accelation this is what I've heared and learned)
and that accelation advantage means gain Energy Fast than other.

think... is this why people saying do -E- fight with 109

....

Jaws2002
08-25-2004, 10:04 PM
To add to that.
The 109 can zoom climb, fw can't. Is faster in the dive. Turns much better at low speed and with combat flaps as good at high speed. After the last patch the Messer rolls way too good.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v258/&lt;FA&gt;Jaws/Uber2sm.jpg

steiner562
08-25-2004, 10:12 PM
109 is a great all round plane what ever variant you fly(IMHO)... the focke takes more patience,AT THE END you have more options in 109 ( as long as you dont go chasing p-47s etc at there preferred alt http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif ) you can dogfight or mix it up high ,, thats the reason i love the 109...
regards
stein

http://www.bf109.com/gallery/grayeagle/gallgray01sm.jpg

LLv34_Stafroty
08-25-2004, 10:17 PM
gotta say that its friggin boring to fly with FW, only Hit n Run tactics, nothing else, Zoom n Boom is almost impossible - few attacks and enemy is in your tail. you cant shoot deflection shots with it- just cant see anything front of you.
you can´t turn with it almost at all, you bleed speed really fast even in gently turns.
you need teammate with FW too to survive if enemy sits in your ***, otherwise u are dead, with 109 you can shake him off. with FW you just become slow and get killed more faster.

FW is really ****ty to fly and shoot. doent feel like butcher bird. russian planes sucks Many bursts from its cannons. can clearly remember when there was yak9 against 2 FW:s and we both made good hits on it, and one 109 even shot at it too with 20mm cannon, it bit smoked and thats all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BfHeFwMe
08-25-2004, 10:19 PM
109's have a cigarette lighter standard.

Dolemite-
08-25-2004, 10:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:

-Me109 isn`t Oleg`s favorite http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, Oleg's favorite plane is the 109G-2, or at least it was.

___________________________________________
Flying on HL as {Dolemite}
http://www.talonse.com/supergreg.swf &lt;----- ya wont regret it

karost
08-25-2004, 11:03 PM
Bf-109 is challenging style for playing with 3 dimension invisible energy advantage and deflection shooting advantage.

S!

F19_Ob
08-25-2004, 11:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
I think the problem here is that people don't recognize the terrible significance of that climb rate.

When you encounter someone who knows how to really use it to put your nuts in the wringer, and makes you helpless, and toys with you before diving in for the haymaker... then you start to realize how precious that climb rate can be. Most planes can dive at least fairly well. But only a few climb very well. And it's always harder to go up than it is to go down.

I can remember back years ago when I was a "FW-head" and didn't know what the 109 was really about. One of the better Warbirds pilots showed me the secrets of the 109. It was incredibly eye opening. Funny, now I am not that great in a FW190...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



I agree with Stiglr fully on this.

Its not even nescessary to use manual proppitch to have exeptional climb in the 109.
The accelleration is also exeptional, where many of the contemporarys were 'normal'.


If someone like to test this climb and accelleration , U can take a 109e against a hurricane and play a little.
Although a hurricane is home on the deck at slow speed, it still bleeds its energy fast and has lazy accelleration.
In situations where U for some reason have ended up low and slow, this can be used to the 109's advantage.
The 109 can simply fly away from the hurri in level flight and if u add a steep spiral-climb when u know the hurri is out of Energy or almost, he wont be able to follow.
The result is that u can choose to leave or continue the fight, wich the Hurricane cant.

Early LaGG3 also have this lazy accelleration from slow speed, but it can maintain a higher topspeed.

Sometimes in extreeme situations where I ended up In a speed favorable for the hurricane I have done my best to loose all speed and the Hurri followed and then from takeoff speed I have just climbed above the hurri and he couldnt follow.
But in these kinds of situations u are on the defensive and an easy target for another enemy with better E, but sometimes u just are out of options and have to do what u can.

This above description is a good reason why I always say its good to practise climb and hard maneuvers in slowest speeds with the 109.

I also use to say that a Hurricane with energy is a dangerous opponent although its combat variety is only a fraction of the 109.

The 109 outspeeds, climbs and outguns Hurri and it also is exeptional in highest aswell as lowest altitudes and speeds.

Hurricanse are good only on medium altitude and speed. A good pilot can cope with slow speed but in high speed it just not much u can do. In too high speeds it wont loose its wings but will nose over and dive to ground.

Freefalldart
08-26-2004, 12:51 AM
109 is for boys, 190 is for men http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

Just joking, don't be rude http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I find 109s more "crappy pilot (me) friendly" than 190. My all time favourite fighter is the FW, but I admit that I can't fly it well so I tried the 109 and I found it relatively easy to fly. IMO the Mess is a more forgiving aircraft that the FW. I miss the toughness and weaponary of the 190, but for me is easier to score with the 109.

"Cuando un loco parece totalmente sensato es hora de ponerle la camisa de fuerza"
Edgar Allan Poe (1809-1849)

WUAF_Badsight
08-26-2004, 01:06 AM
just read what CarGuy said

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WUAF_Badsight
08-26-2004, 01:14 AM
i love the post above by Carguy but this especially :

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:

-Me109 doesn`t have gay bubble canopy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


the reason that the Bf109 is more deadly in FB over the FW-190 is . . . . . . .

Forgotten Battles favours Climb & Turn Performance

both are in the Bf109s advantage over the FW-190

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

dieg777
08-26-2004, 01:31 AM
Like 109s better as;
used to these -have played these since origonal IL2 german campaigns-favoutite so far is F4 but learning G6AS-
Galland and Hartmann flew them -a lot better than I can http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Dont like forward view in 190-
Always seem to be shooting under the nose so no use in having lots of ammo if you cant see what your trying to hit
Dont like feel of 190 - doesnt handle like I think it should in my mind- no hard facts for this just personnal preferance
the clincher-109 looks better http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

GUNNER
Gunner get a decent signature
Gunner learn to fly
Gunner learn to shoot
Gunner not run out of bullets just as I get on his six

OldMan____
08-26-2004, 05:11 AM
Interesting. That confirms that people here seems to prefer 109 planes.

But I still find easier to hit anything with a 190 due to gun pattern, specially because I fire at 300m or more usually,and 190 fires much more bullets... increased probabilities.

Also almost never had problems with the 190 aim, I never had to shoot under my nose since I never make turn and burn (classical situation when you need to put deflection angle above your opponent)
Everytime I shoot at somebody I do it from below. Ok would be very nice to add this extra firing sollution, but anyway I can't turn to put a spitfire under my firing path this way..

OK, climb is very important I agree. But usually combats tend to go down with time. You start at 4k.. in few minutes you are at 1k (t least I do so when in 190 and works pretty well).

So how do you use this cilmb advantage? I explained how I use my preffered 190 advantage (the fast respose controls). Just wanna know how 109 guys use their advantages. Just energy rebuild?

And just for information. I do not make hit and run with 190.. I stay and fight (but never turn in circles).

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

Xnomad
08-26-2004, 05:30 AM
You can see what you are shooting at with a BF 109, and you can climb better, also if you are in trouble you can turn better than most western planes.

The Fw 190 is good against western planes early in the war but then begins to suffer. The Dora is a lovely plane handles beautifully, but can't take damage very well and it's armament is difficult to kill with plus the added visibility problem with the bar.

Really with a Fw 190 it is ideal if you surprise your prey, because if he notices you it is very hard to shoot with deflection in that thing, then for instance in a Dora you have the added problem that the weapons don't do enough damage.

The Bf 109 has the MK 108 cannon in the nose, you will hit your target and most likely kill him, in addition deflection shooting is much easier with this plane. You have a bit of both worlds too, you can out run some planes with it and out turn other planes with it too, with the Fw 190 most of the time all you can really do is out dive and out run planes.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/Xnomad-Sig.jpg

HART_dreyer
08-26-2004, 05:33 AM
If you stay and fight against me in a FW190 you're going to loose, unfortunately.

I don't understand why people say it's harder to make deflection shots in the 190 than the 109 though. What are you people smoking? There's hardly like any difference at all. I don't get it.

I would refrain from flying the FW190 solo if possible. Its not good solo; bleeds E so fast that your options are nearly limited to flying in straight lines. Fly with a wingman however and everything is put on its head.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"I'm an educated and certified idiot!"

Xnomad
08-26-2004, 05:41 AM
How can you tell you are being chased by a Fw 190?

Because when you turn you will see tracers firing at a position you were flying in 10 seconds ago and he has missed you by 20 metres laterally.

I'm embarassed sometimes when a plane I shoot at (whilst flying the Fw 190) dips under that bar and I adjust aim and fire only to see him in the side window flying a turn. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Had he been flying straight I would have hit him but how the feck was I supposed to know that he turned when he went under that bar????

When being chased by a Fw 190 just bunt a lot and turn, he won't know where you are for a few seconds each time.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/Xnomad-Sig.jpg

HART_dreyer
08-26-2004, 05:48 AM
You can't know. But you have that very same problem in the 109. It is possible deflection shooting is a TAD easier in the 109. However people are making this "cockpit-problem" in the FW190 into a huge deal when it's really just a minor detail.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"I'm an educated and certified idiot!"

dieg777
08-26-2004, 06:27 AM
Not an expert- as will become obvious- but dont think tactics are different between 109 and 190, both are predominantly used to BnZ, however it takes a lot of patience and discipline to fly this way and sometimes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif i get dragged into turning- -not wise or clever but in this case the 109 works better for me- and better climb gives me an escape when things get down lower and slower.
Respect to the guys who can fly BnZ properly but I think 109 gives more options when you need them at lower Energy.

GUNNER
Gunner get a decent signature
Gunner learn to fly
Gunner learn to shoot
Gunner not run out of bullets just as I get on his six

OldMan____
08-26-2004, 06:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HART_dreyer:
You can't know. But you have that very same problem in the 109. It is possible deflection shooting is a TAD easier in the 109. However people are making this "cockpit-problem" in the FW190 into a huge deal when it's really just a minor detail.

Regards,
dreyer
_http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/_
"I'm an educated and certified idiot!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

agree.. I just dive 5 meters under enemy and aim UP. Easy..

The aim is not a big concern. Although the climb is really important.

And I do stay and fight.. and I don't loose so often.. Just need to know the time to give up.. push full power and scape (since only a P51 will keep with you). You also cannot stay and fight ALONE.

But when I stay and fight with 109.. I usually get big holes in my wing... a lot of oil in windshield and an engine with strage noise

One thing I really hate in 190 is the INCREDIBLE loss of speed when a single .303 bullet hit you wing.. afff. Ok.. no problem when a hispano hits it.. but one or 2 MG bullets?

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

Ankanor
08-26-2004, 07:20 AM
I play more offline sadly, and I used to fly the 109. So, in almost every mission I would have an enemy on my tail, at one time or another. And as you know, it's not the greatest fun to have a rain of green ShKAS lazers passing right by your head http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif. And also, I hate the oil on the windshield after a couple of .303 hit me. Or the totally unrealistic Swiss cheese windshield http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif. Why have it if it does not stop the bullets? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

Since I transferred to FW190 I have been under attack only once and it wa because the russians sent two waves of fighters, the second arriving about two minutes after we mixed with the first.
The greater firepower means a one pass-one kill potential, even for poor shooters like me.
The better responce at high speeds means I can make it up for the lack of visibility. AS somebody already said, dive under him. Also, the belly is the sweetspot of almost every aircraft. gas tanks, radiator, oil, plus the gunner cannot aim at you(I am talking IL-2 here)

The main difference between FW190 and Me109 is that FW190 is more teamwork oriented. In Me109, your own flying skills are more essential than teamwork.

O, how I want to hold you,
To feel your breath
And hear your laughter in my ears.
To look into your eyes
And see myself in there.
Caress you with my lips.
To hold your hands in mine
And find the hidden smile in your dimple
That makes you irresistible
And stops the breathing in my chest.
To be with you when you are weeping,
To wipe away the tears and take away the sorrow.
To watch you while you are sleeping
Like there is no tomorrow.

And with a tender kiss to wake you up.

Essen,23.02.2004 20:53

camped69
08-26-2004, 08:51 AM
Could someone inform me of the Preferred Altitude of the P-47?

High Speed Dirt?

KarayaEine
08-26-2004, 09:07 AM
I fly the 109 just because it looks so damn good!

Johann

Horrido!
"We need more ammo!"
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid123/pf6134ba44807ec5fa171e4f94f32e299/f81fa8b5.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2004, 12:26 PM
Jaws, I beg to differ, a FW190 most certainly CAN zoom climb. Not only that, it can loop and do tight vertical reversals and maneuvers with more snap and authority than a 109 can.

You just need to be able to keep it fast as much as possible, where the 109 can continue the climb fight while slow.

That's the big difference between the two.

OldMan____
08-26-2004, 02:29 PM
It is more stable while above 350.. but when you get slow is dangerous vertical maneuver the 190.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

gates123
08-26-2004, 02:35 PM
I find the 190 a much more survivable and potent a/c then the 109. In a 109 I get run down and sprayed upon which usually leaves me in flames.

http://www.fightingcolors.com/custompagestuff/b17visibility72.jpg
Did anyone see that or was it just me?

mynameisroland
08-26-2004, 06:32 PM
The Butcher bird is prob my all time fav plane. But i do not have the ability to make it an effective dog fighter. I do agree with some here that i survive longer when i am in a D9 than a 109 but i believe thats prob due to maintaing speed and using hit and run. Where as in a 109 i will stay and fight and get shot at more but also do a lot more shooting.

I think that flying the 109 makes you lazy and thats bad if you suddenly jump to 190 cause you cant make any mistakes in that plane otherwise you will get fried.

I play mostly full realism except icons and cockpit. I am trying to get used to cockpit only but its very tough. So i can see peoples point reg the 190's cockpit.

I think that one advantage over the 190 that the me 109 posses for me is the centre line cannon. Even with just a Mk151 instead of a 108 i find it so much easier to get kills and aim. I like to fire soley with the cannon sometimes as you can aim amazingly well and get some outrageous deflection shots. What i have noticed with 190 is that when making ajustments when targeting you cant pull lead sharply or it snaps away in to a stall. I prefer the freedom the 109 gives when in a dog fight because its stall is friendlier and you can out manuver any plane with combination of stall handling climb and acceleration.

Still love the 190 tho , just wish its climb speed was better. In books it states A6 climb should be equal to Spit IX up to 20,000ft ive been outclimbed by P47's let alone spits Laggs and Yaks

F0_Dark_P
08-26-2004, 08:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:
-Me109 has better visibility even with old canopy

-Me109 is great at stallfighting

-Me109 has little bombrack

-there aren`t Me109 models that you have to fly with the bombrack http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

-ME109 climbs significantly better than most planes

-I saw it first time in WWII fotages http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-most aces flew Me109 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

-Me109 is unbeatable when flown by an ace http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

-Me109 isn`t hurt as much by Oleg`s image as it is with FW190 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

-Me109 isn`t Oleg`s favorite http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

-Me109 resembles TIE fighter with it`s rugged look http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

-Me109 is easier to land than FW190

-Me109 is THE plane Luftwhiners have been fighting to be modelled realisticaly since release of IL2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

-Me109 doesn`t have gay bubble canopy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

-Me109 has many variants

-Me109 wasn`t the plane that had the "pilot killed" bug all the way to FB http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

-Me109 is more friendly than FW190

and for the most part I have flown Me109 exclusively since May 2002.

VWF-I`ve flown 38 sorties in FW190;airkills:1 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>WORD! can it be more right?:P

Major Gunther Rall, 275 victories:
'The 109? That was a dream, the non plus ultra. Just like the F-14 of today. Of course, everyone wanted to fly it as soon as possible. I was very proud when I converted to it.

BfHeFwMe
08-26-2004, 09:36 PM
If I want to hit a ground target in and out real quick, I'll bring a Fw to do the job. If there's fighters in the area that are half good, I'll bring a Stuka, good chance I'll get a kill or two and survive the run. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

falco_cz
08-27-2004, 12:21 AM
Both Me109/Fw190 were axcellent fighters in RL as much as they are in FB. The problem is that almost all planes (especially VVS) are overmodelled in turn, roll and DM department.

OldMan____
08-27-2004, 05:26 AM
I really think VVS fighters (soviet) are the best modelled in game. They received most attention in beggining, and the game engine was made to simmulate them.


Why is so hard to people to beleive VVS fighters maneuvered much better?Just look at their wings and power to height ratio!!

They were not very efficient in war because of reasons we cannot put in game (too hot cockpit, not confortable cockpit, lack of good radios, problems in production, reliability).

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

HART_dreyer
08-27-2004, 05:40 AM
And the biggest problem VVS had was a lack of skilled pilots.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"I'm an educated and certified idiot!"

OldMan____
08-27-2004, 06:02 AM
yeap, although I did not put this cause I intended not to offend anyone's war proud.

Is not so hard to beleive... just look at the fighters they still make today

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

OldMan____
08-27-2004, 06:08 AM
I have one more question.


Does anyone knows why FW190 A4 is so slower than A5 in game? They have sama horsepower and most sources I find credit almost same speed for both.

any idea on this?

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

KGr.HH-Sunburst
08-27-2004, 08:00 AM
A4 has no boost system wich the A5 does have
its called erhote notleistung? (sp)
thats why the A5 is faster i think

http://www.hell-hounds.de
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/sunburst/FW190A6sigHH.jpg
''All your Mustangs are belong to us''

OldMan____
08-27-2004, 08:33 AM
A5 power with boost is stated exactly same as A4 without boost. Real life A5 had no different boost from A4

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

Kurfurst__
08-27-2004, 09:06 AM
The 109 gives you the most freedom in the game of all fighters. You have a VERY wide range of combat capability at your hands, you have a bird that is always at least as fast as anybody else`s, you have bird that can outclimb all (great for saving your butt or dictating the terms of fight), plus very good in dives, excellent in manouvers and manouveing fights.

Bascially, while riding the 109, you can be confident of yourself. Whatever your opponent will ride, in the 109 you always have plenty of options to beat him... even when playing against his streg it`s not so much true for the others planes. Ie. 190 and P-47, you will have to fly a very strict energy fight. Most Soviet and early Allied planes are strictly turn and burner planes. The P-51 is a jack of all trades, but master of none. The later Spits are perhaps the closest to the 109 in this regard, but are more limited in some parts, ie. ammo load and roll rates, visibility.

Plus one of the greatest plus of the 109 is it`s extremely newbie friednly nature in the air. I`d say it`s the easiest to fly, as it`s stall characteristics are very gentle, no nasty spins and like that...

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/nw2004set7.jpg

We're walking in the air
We're floating in the midnight sky
And everyone who sees us greets us as we fly

KaRaYa-X
08-27-2004, 10:42 AM
As Stiglr already pointed out:

The Bf109 is an exceptional climber - which is extremely important in combat versus its arch-enemies such as the Spitfire/Mustang/La5-7.

There are many planes with great diving characteristics (FW190, P47, Mustang, Bf109, etc.) but in combat diving is only useful as an evasive/defensive maneuver because you have to give up a lot of altitude = energy. You also gain speed but this increase often does not make up for the loss of altitude - so if you dive then in 90% of the cases the fights over for you... You can then either return to base or spend another 5-10min climbing to your preferred combat altitude...


However a good climb rate offers several advantages: First of all you can quickly escape your enemies by just pointing your nose into the sky and/or making a spiral climb (especially recommended for all Bf109s!). On the other hand it gives you a great potential energy advantage over planes with inferior ROC (if you're flying a Bf109 - then your the king of the hill http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif).

Online I often try to get my enemies to follow me into a steep climb. Most pilots are so kill/target fixated that they will forget about their tactical situation and just follow you anywhere... this behaviour just ASKS to get punished http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif - When I see that my enemy is just about to stall I perform a hammerhead or complete the climb with a looping and pounce them from above... as easy as that - AND, it works! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


Yes, the Bf109 is a great fighter!

--= flying online as JG52&lt;Karaya-X =--

crazyivan1970
08-27-2004, 11:00 AM
Would you please drop this VVS overmodeled thingy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif VVS looks pretty pale in comparassion to its Western allies. Get with the program folks, how many russian planes you`v seen at HL lately http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/band.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Franzen
08-27-2004, 11:34 AM
I agree with Ivan; the VVS birds are not over modelled. They just come with training wheels. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Fritz Franzen

RJNewly
08-27-2004, 11:34 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by HART_dreyer:

I don't understand why people say it's harder to make deflection shots in the 190 than the 109 though. What are you people smoking? There's hardly like any difference at all. I don't get it.

Regards,
dreyer


I couldn't agree more with your comments on deflection shooting. The FW190 A seriessimplifies defelction shooting for me becasue I have canon mounted in the wings. I find it much easier to hit something with this larger "spread" of fire.

In fact I will take an Emil any day over a Frederick model 109 in early was servers becuse I find it much easier to hit my targets. I catually read in a cook about JG27 or was it JG26? that the 109 pilots really hated the loss of their wing cannons becasue they found it harder to hit their targets.

After you get over the major issue with the 190 (that being its crappy forward view) you really grow to love the bird. I do find the a series to be exceptional as a killing machine becasue in most cases you can get a 1 pass - 1 kill result. The Dora I think is horrible because it lacks the wing cannon.

OldMan____
08-27-2004, 03:28 PM
I reaaly am more successfull aimming with 190 guns.. more area covered.. and MUCH more ammo.



Only once each month I find myself in a situation where I need to loose an extra second to avoid the bar oclusion.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

robban75
08-27-2004, 03:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Would you please drop this VVS overmodeled thingy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif VVS looks pretty pale in comparassion to its Western allies. Get with the program folks, how many russian planes you`v seen at HL lately http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, most VVS birds are quite well modelled in terms of speed and climb. The Yak's especially. The La-7 is another matter, far exceeding its historical climbrates. From 6000m to 9000m it has a better climbrate than the D-9. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

And yes, the servers I fly on are filled with Spit MkIX's, topped of with some La-7's.

I haven't met a single Fw 190A-4/5/6/8 in a looong time.

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

"I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."

VOL_Hans
08-27-2004, 04:21 PM
The choice between 109 and 190 can come down to several things.

Some like one plane's performance and handling better than the others. Some prefer different weapons setups. Some just think one has a better 'feel' than the other.

Heck, some just have a preferance because of looks or "just because".

I personally fly the Bf-109 series because I don't care for the way the 190A/F flies as a fighter. I do prefer the 190A/F on ground attack missions because it can take more punishment from flak, and it's got more guns to use to bluntly smash the enemy ground targets, as well as a larger bomb load.

Sometimes I'll fly a 190D or 152H for my fighter if I'm having an off day with the 109, but thats about it...

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg

Xiolablu3
08-27-2004, 11:41 PM
What car_guy said. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Fehler
08-28-2004, 12:51 AM
Wow, they must be passing out free crack at UBI these days.

The 109 is a brick in a dive.

The Paper-Benz engine does not stand up to harsh words, let alone small caliber ammunition.

Although the 190 has that bar in the bottom of the revi, the 109 has bars all over the place (Hard to see)

Although the 109 is pretty cool looking, it's not nearly as mean looking as the Butcher Bird!

Patience is a virtue when flying the 190 - Big plane, big attention span; small plane - short attention span and small male anatomy part.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

3 guns? Who likes uneven numbers? 6 guns much better!

One of the best looking cockpits in the game, especially considering that it's an old pit!



Nope, for me guys it's the 190 for sure. I feel totally inadequate in the 109. The only thing it does well is slow down and speed up rapidly. And that crappy oil over the windscreen, like WTH is that all about?!? I call the 109 a baby plane. Air cooled all the way for me, thanks!

BBB_Hyperion
08-28-2004, 03:02 AM
K4 is the best Plane for df ingame as it allows turn & burn and boom & zoom .

It even outperforms ki84 cause of the low speed turn ability .

Fehler when you cant trimm your 109 in dive than thats a problem on your side.

When the 190 is hit you lose some topspeed if you dont remember. That means you can bail at this moment when you have an opponent on tail that knowns what he does .)

I fly more around in other planes cause its too easy to fly k4 after while.
Changed to bombers mostly to increase difficulty .)

For the 190 its doesnt allow any pilot faults. You can hardly see out of the cockpit in front . The Mg151/20 miss some punch. Once you miss the first bounce you can run away thats all except you have remarkable e advantage. With Spit IX in Game that climbs really well. You can only fly level and run when you fly alone. Wow what a df feeling http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif .

So 190 requires teamwork to be used effective ,109 doesnt http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Over 4 years of 190 flying on my side allows me to say that and it is still a nice plane but not well suited for solo flights http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The d9 is little better in handling and turns but suffers same problems like energy bleed and weak guns.

For B&Z only planes the ability to kill other planes with 1 pass is questionable with mk151/20 . Special online you can make a complete pass on an enemy plane and visual shows explosions on the surface you check the gunstat and about 20 % of the hits were on target. But it just flys like nothing happend no visual damage.

BF
Advantages
better climb
ability to mix it up
turn ability at high(Trimming) as well as low speeds
easier to stay in air doesnt drop like a stone

Disadvantages
Short Range
Oil on windshield not washable.
only 1 maingun (mk108 gunpods reduce flightperformance too much as well 151/20 pods)

FW
Advantages
6 Guns or 4 Guns (with less effect except maybe mk108 or mk103)
Better top speed low alt up to 2 k

Disadvantages
Forward view
turn inability at low,medium speeds
Stalls if not flown dynamic
worse medium and high alt performance except dora for medium alts.
Little damage high top speed loss.

Hopefully didnt forget something.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

OldMan____
08-28-2004, 05:21 AM
Just remember.. 190 looses speed if hit on WING! I´ve been hit in fuselage by hispano several ocasions.. did not loose any speed. .50 farther 250m do not even scratch 190 armor.


But I really hate when I am hit on wing.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

Antisubs
08-28-2004, 06:27 AM
You started out asking why so many people thought the 109 was better than the 190, while you flew the 190 better and couldn't grasp the 109. Everyone gave reasons why each PLANE was better or worse than the other.

You need to consider the PILOT (you), as well. There are two basic styles of flying, stall fighting and boom-and-zoom. Pilots favor one style over the other (think - natural ability), and fly planes that let them get the most out of that style. Your natural ability/style is boom-and-zoom, so you fly a plane that enhances your natural ability. Stall fighting is hard for you. I'm a stall fighter, and for me to get in a 190 and try to fly it in combat is suicide. I've been flying WW2 sims for years, have repeatedly tried to learn the boom-and-zoom style, and still get killed every flight. IMHO, stick with what you enjoy.

OldMan____
08-28-2004, 07:10 AM
The point is, I do NOT B&Z, I dogfight (but not stall fight). And I almost never can match my opponent in a 109. But at same time most people call the 190 an underdog... I can make close dogfight much better in 190.

People complain that in RL, FW190 was considered better.. but in FB is not. I think in FB it is better.. and I am trying to understand why people think otherwise

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

Antisubs
08-28-2004, 08:11 AM
One BIG difference between any sim and real life, is that in real life you have but one life to give for your country. In real life, pilots sometimes took hours (ok, a long time, anyway) manuevering in to get a rear shot where the enemy never even knew you were there. The faster the plane, the quicker you could sneak up on someone. The bigger the punch the guns had, the quicker you could kill someone. Also, the faster the plane, the quicker you could get the *ell out of the way if your sneak or your punch weren't successful. The Fw-190 had both.

In real life, speed is life. The P-38, and other US Pacific planes as well, was so successful against the Zero, in large part, because the pilots NEVER flew it slow. The Black Sheep Squadron successfully flew the P-40, an inferior plane, against overwhelming Zero odds, by flying it fast (boom-and-zoom). Speed is life.

In real life, no one flew alone. No one flew into a furball with 10 vs 1 odds. In the sim you see it all the time. Online flying is not anywhere near what happened in real life. That's partly why the P-38, and the P-47, were so successful in real life yet for most they do so poorly online.

Don't get hung up on what people say in these threads. Fly what works for you. Fly it how it works for you. It's a game, not real life. Enjoy it.

Record your fights against 109s. Study what they are doing to counter what you are doing. Then figure out how to counter that.

rummyrum
08-28-2004, 08:15 AM
AH the 109, the plane of a marksman (no mk 108s)....too bad I am not. In a 109 you can boom and zoom, boom and climb, turn if your smart about it, and stall...stall...climb...stall....turn..stall...tur n and climb away. Your not doing all that in a 190. However, there are several things you can do in a 190 that you can't do in a 109 (one hell of a roll), but isnt it kind of the point to have planes better a certain things. The 190 was to replace the aging 109, but circumstances did not allow this. Both planes filled certain gaps and pilots had their prefrences. Many luftwaffe aces that flew both types preferrd the early 109s, you know what so do I. It fits my style of fighting, the ability to turn and the needed HP to get away if I need too.

In the German birds it is more about discipline, some can do it better in a 190 and some can do it better in a 109. In my eyes the only thing superior about the 190 is it's fire power, but the lack of fire power in a 109 is really only a problem in a those twisty congo lines at 500m we like to call dogfights http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif .

Both planes are great and I envy those that are productive in the 190 because I am not http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

9./JG54 Rummy

The_Gnat
08-28-2004, 08:36 AM
I prefer the 190 over anything. It fits me like a glove. Boom and Zoom is my way of fighting, and it`s so much easier to kill the prey in one pass with that firepower. And I find satisfaction in the way it take practise and yet some more practise to master the ride.

The only beef I have with it. It`s the lack of the option of removing the outer cannons without the bombrack. I don`t really need either of them.

"Fighter pilot`s emotions are those of the duellist - cool, precise, impersonal. He is privileged to kill well. If one must kill or be killed, it should be done with dignity."

p1ngu666
08-28-2004, 08:39 PM
im useless in the 109 fgk
any tips?
whats a good late war 109 aswell?
and convergance for guns, i cant hit a damn thing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
btw, 109 turn is worse than most/all the russian birds its against, and spit aswell, so im not sure its worth much.

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2004, 10:53 PM
Well, for one thing, you don't TURN in it, at least not OFTEN.

it's a much better energy fighter than turn fighter.

dieg777
08-28-2004, 11:04 PM
p1ngu666 Try F4 for early war and G6 AS for late. Make sure you enable boost on G6 AS at below 100 on throttle. see this thread
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=551105626

set convergence from 200 to 300 and have patience. Dont fire at greater than 300 and dont pray and spray. Use rudder to line up shots . Practice, practice, practice.Start with QMB against bombers then work down to fighters.Disable the enemy guns in QMB at first so you can practice getting in close without being hit. I had trouble with hitting anything but now getting better offline- one day Ill get brave and try it for real on-line http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

F4 will turn very well but as Stiglr says dont do it often and try not to follow turn for more than 1/2 radius before going high again. Use 109s good rate of climb to best advantage.

Good Luck

GUNNER
Gunner get a decent signature
Gunner learn to fly
Gunner learn to shoot
Gunner not run out of bullets just as I get on his six

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2004, 12:11 AM
Set convergence at 150 and get in close.

Er, you'll still miss sometimes, inexplicably, with a 30mm gun, but with the cowl MGs and 20mm, it's hard to miss at 150.

Franzen
08-29-2004, 01:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Antisubs:
You started out asking why so many people thought the 109 was better than the 190, while you flew the 190 better and couldn't grasp the 109. Everyone gave reasons why each PLANE was better or worse than the other.

You need to consider the PILOT (you), as well. There are two basic styles of flying, stall fighting and boom-and-zoom. Pilots favor one style over the other (think - natural ability), and fly planes that let them get the most out of that style. Your natural ability/style is boom-and-zoom, so you fly a plane that enhances your natural ability. Stall fighting is hard for you. I'm a stall fighter, and for me to get in a 190 and try to fly it in combat is suicide. I've been flying WW2 sims for years, have repeatedly tried to learn the boom-and-zoom style, and still get killed every flight. IMHO, stick with what you enjoy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you; there are 2 basic flying styles with a rarely seen 3rd style. The third style is more or less a combination of the 2 others. This is my style and has proven to be very successful for myself.
My style makes me very unpredictable and quite flexible and works well with my 2 favorite planes; 109 and 190.
IMHO, combat flying requires a lot of stategy and thought, much like a chess match. My style changes according to my opponents'. Also, the way you think determines and limits your style, and therefore your abilty. It's really quite mathematical. For example: One 180 degree turn equals more e-loss than two 90 degree turns as an end result. Each plane has it's own natural advantages and you must learn to identify and exploit them. How can any one basic style be the best?
I could never understand why so many people limit themselves to one of the 2 basic styles. It's not very logical.

Fritz Franzen

p1ngu666
08-29-2004, 09:24 AM
ta, ill give 150 a stab http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

im not sure how i fly, icefire said i was psycological http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif, i thought i was anything but that tbh
i just try todo what i think will make me win, thats it reallyhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

p1ngu666
08-29-2004, 09:55 AM
wow! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
i actully hit stuff, and easily dispatched 2 p51s, and bombers fell easily, all offwhine mind http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
wwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy better than i was before in 109 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
thankyou http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

dieg777
08-29-2004, 12:26 PM
I tried convergence at 150 but keep ending up getting too affectionate with the bandit and hugging him closley as we spiral down in flames together http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif
Trying to work on closure as the psychiatrists keep telling me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

GUNNER
Gunner get a decent signature
Gunner learn to fly
Gunner learn to shoot
Gunner not run out of bullets just as I get on his six

p1ngu666
08-29-2004, 12:29 PM
just flew onwhine, 600points in 1 flight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
mk108 equiped 109 g6as http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
think i scared a LA7 driver by remaining on his 6 despite him turning http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

and yeah u can run away with the climb http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif takes awhile tho.

seems way better than the other me/bf 109's and wwwwwwaaaaaaaayyy better than the bf110. im used to out nothing planes in 110. well cept at village fates my tomato's are always bigger http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gifits the bf110 greenhouse is the secret http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif

btw i think i downed 2 spits, a la7, a p38 and maybe a yak, cant remmber http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

KaRaYa-X
08-29-2004, 12:54 PM
Actually you don't need to set convergence when flying a Bf109 as all of its guns are mounted in its nose/cowling! (the 2xMG131 and the 1xMk108 or 1xMG151/20)

You only need to set convergence in planes with wing-guns/-cannons such as the FW190 and the Bf109G6/R6 (and all other that have gunpods mounted)

--= flying online as JG52&lt;Karaya-X =--

p1ngu666
08-29-2004, 04:30 PM
it affects the arc of the rounds, hence some convergances are better than others for some guns.
250 is roughly right for western allied planes, and 100 or so for big cannons
u just hit more/better feel

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

BigganD
08-29-2004, 05:26 PM
I also agree that the Bf109 is the best german plane is the game. I see the K4 as a plane that can take ALL propelled airplanes in the game...Its fast,good boost, and ofcourse the prop-pitch, that helps me to win meny airbattles. So dont mess agianst the K4 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

"Get close .. when he fills the entire windscreen ... then you can't possibly miss." Erich Hartmann

MesserPhoenix
08-29-2004, 05:45 PM
For me the Bf 109 is the most stable gun platform there is in game also the weight of fire power of a nose cannon nearly always does the trick, http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
my favorite tactic to use : upon spotting the enemy if at same height, i would climb facing the emeny ususally to +- 1000 m above them roll
on my back and do a half loop onto their six and gain speed until they are nearly 300 m away
then opening up with all guns works well if your staffel stays with you then give the oreder to attack they follow the same manoevre
et voila nearly all the time 3 planes out of a russian flight elemt of four bites the dust.

http://tinypic.com/3sd3t
"The German Luftwaffe reclaiming lost technology since 1941"

OldMan____
08-29-2004, 07:09 PM
yeahh do that to a Spit that sees you doing it.. and he will climb with you just under your sight.. and at the moment you roll.. you see nothing.. just hear the spit passing behind you and pulling nose to cripple you

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

JG7_Rall
08-29-2004, 07:47 PM
Sorry if this has already been said, I don't feel like reading 4 pages of posts to reply to the original author-

You need to realize that E fighting isn't simply BnZ. Yes, BnZ is a great way to manage your energy and ensure that you keep your energy advantage while attacking, but BnZ doesn't define E fighting. The 190 can really only BnZ, that's all. Actually it can't zoom and does a decent job at booming and running away. I fly the 190 and love it but there aren't many other options when flying this plane.

Energy fighting, as stated before, is creating an energy advantage over your opponent so you can get a solution while he is either stalling out and cannot shoot you or is forced to a lower alt, the former resulting the ladder. The 109's awesome climbrate makes it so you can get to a higher alt. than your opponent, and he'll try to get up there with you, but will most likely not be able to climb with you and will either be forced to level off or stall out. This is when you can commence your BnZ attacks. 190 is great when you already enter a fight with an E advantage, 109 is great for creating an E advantage after engaging because of its great climbrate. Sorry if you already know all of this, I just wanted to lay it out. This will probably get ignored like all my other posts tho....

http://home.comcast.net/~nate.r5388/16502.jpg
"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."
Badges!? We don't needs no stinkin' badges!
Flying online as Hutch51

rummyrum
08-29-2004, 08:59 PM
Did you say something RaLL? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1241.gif

9./JG54 Rummy

Mike8686
08-29-2004, 09:37 PM
But most allys fly spitty9 tho. Cant the spitty creat energy just as fast (maybe better) than 109? It turns better, climbs faster, retains energy better, its just plain better at everything, the only way to really takem down is by surprise which suites 190.

OldMan____
08-30-2004, 05:34 AM
It seems, and I am quite convinced now that many people fly 109 because have a missconception of 190 can only BnZ. That is NOT true. I never BnZ and make much better energy tatics in my 190. It is even better since you will notice imidiately when you go down of 400 km/h due to different handling. So you never let yourself loose speed.


Just give a look at IL2 comparae charts.. 400km/h and above.. 190 outturns spitfire!! And
no problem with loosing speed, cause you should not make more than 90 degress in one flat turn!!

Also keep fight vertical , since 190 can get out of dives that are dangerous for other planes easily, so you can extend your maneuvers and use better your space.

I dogfight any enemy that I bounce in (I run when attacked) for at least a few maneuvers.. If I notice we will eventually gain the upperhand.. I make a split S and go to my allies.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

rummyrum
08-30-2004, 08:16 AM
You can energy fight in a Stuka with sucess http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif . Energy fighting involves maintaing, retention, and release. The only reason the spitfire is percieved to outclimb the 109 is that energy was not judged correctly (same reason folks use to say the i16 could out climb the early 109s). All turn fights,BnZ, as well as boom and run involve some form of energy fighting.

The spiral climb is not usually done in a FW190, but if you have sucess in the FW190 that's great. Combat fighting is all about getting your guns on the bad guy. In certain situations the FW190 is better than the Bf109 and in cetain situations the FW109 is better than the BF109 atleast you agree on that point?

9./JG54 Rummy

OldMan____
08-30-2004, 10:09 AM
Make a test. Try climb at 400Km/h and keep that speed (reduce pitch to do it) You will climb exactly same as a Spit MKIX at same speed, and If you make it at 430 you will outclimb it. This with an FW190 A6. With a later FW you will own him. With a Dora is not even FUNNY!


Remember, you are not supposed to climb, turn at your best speed.. but at the speedthat you plane is better than opponent.


So in long shallow climbs you will WIN any Spit (TAHT is the important stuff.. you have a specific speed you can scape it) . And at 450 km/h you wil outturn it!! If he turn inside you.. he will get behind by loosing speed... so just keep the smooth turn and you will scape it.



The main problem is the P%1 that can follow you at ANY speed, so your only chance is keeping distance so its .50 wont rip you in .5 seconds.. and hope for someone to help you.. while you try to help someone else. You still have far more firepower.. so use it.. abuse circcle shooting enemy at 400m... that is how I kill most enemies (usually they loose maneuverability due to a few bullets in their wings).

Also..remember to use manual RPM and a lot of trimm down.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

JG14_Josf
08-30-2004, 02:32 PM
OldMan_,

If you can energy fight with the 190 then please record a track and send it to me:

josf.kelley@verizon.net

I am firmly in the same opinion as JG7_Rall

The 190 can really only hit and run.

For example:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So in long shallow climbs you will WIN any Spit <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How long is this shallow climb conducted against a Spit?

Please excuse my scepticism. This sounds obsurd to me based upon my experience in the game.

Please send a track that shows this combat energy advantage held by the FW190A-6 over the Spit.

Please don't send files that include:

FW with large initial energy advantage

Multiple plane engagements where the Spitfire pilot is preoccupied with other targets.

I really want to see how the FW190A-6 can employ an energy gaining advantage against a Spitfire.

I can trick the A.I. Spitfires into burning more energy in a sustained turn maneuver but rarely are any on-line players that stupid.

If you can send a track file with what you describe as an energy advantage held by the FW190A-6 over the Spitfire it would be much more clear than your written explanation.

It sounds like hit and run to me when the FW190 pilot has to extend from the fight at very high speed and avoid turning.

By the time that scenario is played out the Spitfire pilot either has lost interest in the fight and turned away or the FW190 pilot tries to turn onto an attack only to find that his turn bled so much energy that the Spitfire "Owns" the FW.

I am very interested in seeing how this energy advantage does work with the FW/Spit matchup.

OldMan____
08-30-2004, 07:32 PM
As soon as I Fly online I will try to save some tracks. Since I usually fly online only at weekends It may take some days.

Although I don´t agree in one point.. no multiple planes!! No way I enter in a fight alone!! That is STUPID!1 In RL you would be court martialed doing so!! I only fight With at least a wing that I know or 2 random blue guys if I don´t know them. This does not mean numerical advantage.. since I will gladly attack 3 spitfires with just a single fellow.


And you must be more specific when you say extend is running away.. I do extend frequently for a few moments to build up speed when needed, than if I have space..turn and come back. Not doing so and just circle... is again.. wrong!!

just NEVER try to outturn someone out of your tail!!! Just get speed..smooth maneuvers.. so someone may help you. Only Time I try doing so Iis if opponent does not have a good angle.


That is piloting!! Running in circles is not piloting... If you have 2 spits in your tail.. and you STAY TURNING.. QUIT FB.. go play Counter Strike or something even more arcade.


about the climb. Just test it, from zero to 2k meters FW190A6 will AT LEAST match spit in this way (2k to 3k fw190 performance is very bad). you can do it until your plane overheats (or reaching a specific altidude you have not a good performance).

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

WaffenKatze
08-30-2004, 09:17 PM
building energy in shallow climb is more like Hit and Run since do this for lateral seperation than the vertical.

in my experience, if they followed me in climb, I could out run him, but most online flyer tend to go accelate thiere speed over my climb speed to cut lateral seperation and vertical seperation is just little, and then eventually I've cought..... well my only option is dive at that time..

may be something is wrong doing this with me.. HnR isnt my style anyway

(have problem with speaking english.. sorry about it)

OldMan____
08-31-2004, 04:12 AM
I am not saying that this is the way of getting sepparation in fight. But some guys here talked about being able to climb away from enemy in 109.. so in 190 you can do it also.. only slightly different. I usually only do it when I am in disadvantage. And only until get alt and distance to make an inverted 1/2 loop to force a head on approach to re start equaly the combat.

I prefer to fight down low.. under 1000m where 190 engine is much better. Just trying to show that people get only one try at everyting.. never try to make a variation, so loose oportunities of using the best of each plane. The same thing with people turning at 300 kpm.. when they should be doing it at 400kpm

If everyone thinks doghfight is keeping at a radius of 500 meters from combat center... well than just that is the reason why so many IL2 are shooting LW flyers around. No LW plane was made thinking with this kind of CIRCLE fight.

If your enemy just try to close distance in level.. level and outrun him.. your FW190 can do it easily to all but the fastest oponents (p51 and La7).

Avoid being hit by a Spit in a fw190 is only a matter of keeping distance &gt; 500 m. Say that because Spit flyers dont use Hispano from too far due to lack of ammo, and the smallers guns wont bring you down in a FW190 (but can damage your wings). Of course.... sometimes you wil face someone that will be able to put himself behind you.. after that.. only 2 chances.. RUN or be saved by others.

I know there are many others in this forum that do dogfight well on 190 (I 've faced them) so please soemone give a hand here.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

JG14_Josf
08-31-2004, 06:25 AM
OldMan_,

You don't need a hand. If your contention is that the FW190 has a climb performance advantage over the Spitfire then simply record a track that demonstrates this ability and you will prove your point.

Your point can be proven easily if it is true by simply showing how it works in the game.

The problem may be that your point is not true that, in fact, no such climb advantage exists.

Saying that the FW190 has a climb advantage is like saying the FW190 has a turn advantage over the Spitfire.

As long as the Spitfire pilot does this.... then the FW190 has an advantage.

As long as the Spitfire pilot flies straight and level then the FW has a turn advantage and climb advantage.

One on one the Spitfire holds all the cards in the game. If you meet a Spitfire online in an FW190A-6 at equal altitude, at equal speed and equal possition (head-on merge) and then start fighting you will lose the fight in an FW190A-6 if both pilots are equal in ability.

Every turn will give the Spitfire an energy and a possition advantage. The only option the FW190 pilot has is to run or hope the Spitfire pilot makes a mistake.

If the Spitfire pilot does not make a mistake and the FW pilot runs then the FW190 can extend away from the fight long enough to turn back around and try to make a head-on shot.

Turning around and trying to make a head-on shot at a Spitfire pilot, in the game, is not winning the fight in my opinion. That option is affording the Spitfire pilot an equal opportunity to make a killing shot.

Any way you slice this up it results in the same story. The Spitfire has the advantage.

Go back to the equal altitude, equal speed, and equal possition merge where both the FW190A-6 and the Spitfire start fighting after a head-on pass and consider the options the FW190 pilot has for combat.

If as you state the FW190 can fly straight away from the fight in a high speed climb and gain an advantage over the Spitfire then prove this to be true with a track file. I am anxious to see how far away that extension must be before you think it is an advantage to turn around a fight the Spitfire pilot.

I am anxious to see how your FW190A-6 has gained an advantage over the Spitfire after you make your reverse and both planes meet again in a head-on merge.

If both planes are pointed at each other then there is no possition advantage gained in this maneuver. If the FW190 is faster and higher then the FW190 will definitely have an energy advantage. If the FW190 is higher but much slower than it is not known if the FW190 has a total energy advantage. A total energy advantage is obvious when one plane can use this energy advantage to maneuver into a possition for a killing shot.

Maneuvering into a possition for a killing shot and at the same time the enemy moves into a possition for a killing shot only proves that both planes are close enough in total energy to be equal.

Let's just suppose however you do turn around and pass the Spitfire a second time during the dog fight. What happens next?

Is your FW190A-6 now at a higher energy state so that you can extend again and gain even more energy over the Spitfire?

Now you can use this climb advantage to go higher and faster than the Spitfire and turn around before the Spitfire can turn around?

Or is this combat climb advantage never good enough to gain a possition advantage?

Or do you have to extend long enough for the Spitfire pilot to be bored or occupied by other players before you can gain any possition advantage with this combat high speed climb advantage?

I really don't see why you need any help with this since if you are right then all you need to do is record this climb advantage working in the game and send the file.

If you are claiming the FW190 has a climb advantage then show it.

If the only advantage you are experiencing in the game turns out to be a teamwork advantage then admit it.

A teamwork advantage is a very useful combat advantage. While one team mate is extending the other team mate can attack. This is called drag and bag by many teams currently playing in the game.

A climb advantage is a very useful combat advantage. This advantage is currrently being used by many players in the game using planes with a combat climb advantage.

My experience is that the FW190A-6 does not have a climb advantage or any such energy gaining advantage over the Spitfire in the game.

The Spitfire has the climb advantage over the FW190A-6 as well as the turn performance advantage.

Saying: "if the Spitfire goes this speed then the FW190 has an advantage in climb" is no different, in my opinion, than saying "if the Spitfire goes this speed then the FW190 has an advantage in turn".

Air combat is not scripted where the attacker in the FW190 determines how the defender in his Spitfire is going to conduct the fight.

If the Spitfire pilot chooses to fight only at high speed in shallow climbs then that indicates how the Spitfire pilot is lacking not the plane.

Please record track files and review them. Find your best example of how the FW190 has a climb advantage and send the file.

Prove this claim.

If it is true then you can do it without any help.

HWick
08-31-2004, 06:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Ob:
Hurricanse are good only on medium altitude and speed. A good pilot can cope with slow speed but in high speed it just not much u can do. In too high speeds it wont loose its wings but will nose over and dive to ground.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Gents!

I answer very rarely in this forum, but id like to add something:

I think all of you know the VEF virtual war.
With my mates I fly for the OKL in the VO101 squadron.

In the early stage of this war, when we flown Emils(except E7Z) We realized that Hurries out maneuver and climb us over 7-8k. It was very dissapointing thing... We boom&zoomed by Hurries. from 8-10k! Its another story that they cant use well their advantages, because we could got them low and slow. Hurries alomst as good in high as the F4.

I told this just for I thougt it is interestinghttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S! HWick

OldMan____
08-31-2004, 06:56 AM
If all you want is a prove track so As soon as I get home I will do it. Will ask someone to fly with spit just behind my 190 with icons on to show distance, from 0 meters to up and starting at 420 km/h .. is that Ok for you? Track form inside the spit so you can see that spit power is maximum.


Anyway.. just open any IL2 compare chart.. and you will see how climb bahaves in high speed. In 2.04 spit climbs better.. but overal idea still the same.

And I never said that FW190 is good dogfighting alone, specially because I don ´t even consider this option wiht ANY fighter.. even with an La7.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

BBB_Hyperion
08-31-2004, 10:34 AM
Oldman forget Il2 Compare its inaccurate.

I know what you are up too but it implies that the spit driver follows you on your climb path. An expert Spit flyer wouldnt do that . He would climb at his best climbspeed until he has enough alt to engage in dive. Only way i escape spits is below 2 k in level flight then i can gain some range.
And 500 m is not enough been shoot down from 900 m from spits. With wing hits you can aswell bail.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

karost
08-31-2004, 11:45 AM
for me , I like 109G6 or Late for making along hunting , FW190A-6 is impossible for me do like that

but for 1944-45 mission I like 190D for shoot spritfire , coz I drive faster run faster but never ... never turn with spritfire , if spritfire can get in my tail I just use max speed heading direct line to my airbase and open navigator light , next one min. I check my 6 again I did not found that spritfire ... anyone have anyidea where he is ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

OldMan____
08-31-2004, 01:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Oldman forget Il2 Compare its inaccurate.

I know what you are up too but it implies that the spit driver follows you on your climb path. An expert Spit flyer wouldnt do that . He would climb at his best climbspeed until he has enough alt to engage in dive. Only way i escape spits is below 2 k in level flight then i can gain some range.
And 500 m is not enough been shoot down from 900 m from spits. With wing hits you can aswell bail.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you are right.. this is a tatic to avoid the spitfire following you while in the climb. You need to pay attention to how he is climbing. If he put its nose UP to its maximum climb rate.. PERFECT.. you got your moment of reversing (he is not seeing you or not going thowards you). The important is there are some alternatives to fight spits.

I said to look Il2 compare because it is easy way. But I already measured this kind of climb in MANY planes: When get home I get the complete table, but I still remember:

climb at minimum 420kph (when speed dropped to410 imediate reduced angle to gain speed back) from 50m to 1000m.

FW190 A5- 1min 7 sec
FW190 A9- 1min 1 sec
Spitfire MK IX e- 1min 16 sec
Dora- 56 sec
Ta152-53 sec
Me262- 31 sec
P51D- 1 min 8 sec



All data taken from 3 test each plane and only considered if each one diverged no more than 2 seconds with other. Don't remember 109 values now.. but where better than Ta152

Spitfires pilots usually do not fire this far (900m) since they have very few bullets on theirs big guns, usually they do not fire farther than 500m with hispanos

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

BBB_Hyperion
08-31-2004, 03:12 PM
When you have a track of it i can make a excel chart for climbrate and speed .

Also inaccurate you can use the roc vs speed chart in il2compare to get best climbing speed and compare it to other planes roc vs speed chart.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

Bluedog72
08-31-2004, 03:49 PM
I allways think of it in terms of a knife fight.
The FW 190 is like showing up witha two handed Claymore.....a big slashing weapon that relies on massive impact to inflict damage from just outside of it's opponents reach.

The Bf 109 is like a stilleto, relying more on nimbleness, speed and agility to get in close enough to inflict allmost surgically precise cuts to vital areas of the opponent's body.

he he, may sound strange, but it works for me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

OldMan____
08-31-2004, 07:36 PM
And what does a Spitfire is? A self guided dagger with embedded poison?
It has huge firepower and excelent maneuverability.



I will do the tracks guys.. but I can only get to play online at weekends.

Anyway these past day I have been training me109 and iproved a lot when decide that 109 shooting is much closer than 190 shooting (due to spread pattern). But I still get hit easier with 109

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

JG14_Josf
08-31-2004, 08:43 PM
OldMan_

I am only asking for track files that include one on one maneuvering between the FW190 and the Spitfire where the FW190 uses a performance advantage over the Spitfire.

If you intend to conduct a high speed climb test then by all means have fun with that but for me that information has little or no value in fighter combat other than the obvious tactical use of the later part in hit and run.

If you manage to record a track file of a Spitfire going nose up behind you into a steeper climb angle where the Spitfire is no longer able to see you and then you turn around to nail him; that is worth sending.

I suppose there are some sim pilots that fight like that and it would be entertaining to watch such an event, however, that does not demonstrate a useful combat performance advantage of one plane over another, instead it demonstrates a Spitfire pilot who doesn't realize a fundamental rule in Air Combat.

OldMan____
09-01-2004, 05:19 AM
And i said I will not give you an One on One combat track since I do never fly one on one , do not consider it air combat..., so a situation not covered by my assetion "FW190 is dogfight capable"

Although I will give you some wing fights tracks as soon as I can play online to record them.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

JG14_Josf
09-01-2004, 10:10 AM
Oldman_,

I have plenty of track files recording teamwork, thanks anyway.

Your 'assetion' is disingenuous, in my opinion.

You state that the FW190 is dogfight capable yet have nothing to back up the statement.

If you say instead that the FW190 is a good plane for employing team tactics then that is something entirely different.

The fact is that the FW190 is not a good dog fight plane because it lacks dog fighting performance advantages like:
1. Turn performance
2. Energy performance

My opinon is that the so called climb advantage is only good for either:
1. Team tactics
2. Hit and run tactics

The fact is that you confirm my opinion.

The FW190 is dogfight capable:

only using teamwork:

otherwise hit and run tactics are required.

Perhaps what is missing in the gap between our opinions is a further clarification:
Survival is important in dogfighting.

OldMan____
09-01-2004, 11:18 AM
Your statement that fighting in team is not dogfigh is the problem here!! So we never had dogfight during WW2.. by your thinking.

Team fight IS dogfight!!! I already stated, I DO NOT CARE FOR LONE FIGHTING... so this thread is NOT about DUELS.. is about AIR COMBAT.

At start of topic I said.. only full real , that includes real fighting. Fighting alone Is not viable in ANY plane!!! Worst thing you can do is enetering a fight totally unssuported... with ANY plane. I will never turn fight alone even with SPITFIRE.. !! I feel DUMB turning in circles.


FW190 are perfectly capable of close combat .. just dont think you will retake advantage over someone that has already installed itself in your 6!! I would not even try to retake this advantage wih 190, 109, Spitfire, P51 or any other plane.

Just why the HELL would anyone enter a fight ALONE? (unless opponent is damaged or did not see you)

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

Atomic_Marten
09-01-2004, 11:50 AM
IMO when I fly Fw190 I can rely on just one thing only and that is alt advantage. If I lack this I can be easily destroyed if I faced Spit as an oppo. I was fly Fw190 frequently online and was very rarely seen any other Fw190 flyer below 2000m with an exception to those who are BnZing their prey http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif.

Then I fly Spit for a change. And I have been forced to engage one lone Fw190D9 when flying home. He was in both speed and alt advantage, and also IMHO he was rather experienced. Unlike me on Spit (I did not have almost any experience online with Spit 'cos it is not my favourite bird). I was flying really low I would say on about 100m. He was on ~1500m above me on my 6 and closing. Then I realise I could not escape him, and I made hard turn to face him. Then he executed unsuccesful BnZ pass and he used his better energy state to get alt againg. To make story shorter in a couple of turns he lost all his advantage and was forced to run.

He was increased both distance and alt between me and him (he was succesfuly escaped). Then on distance ~2.20k he begin to circle and waited for me, 'cos he got significant alt advantage (about 1k difference in his favour). He BnZed me and missed http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I went for clouds to hide - then he was again positioning himself in BnZ pass he missed and again lost his advantage and realised that I'm on his six. He was attempt to manoeuvre but was crashed due to high speed.

Point of story (hmmm... my conclusion http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) is that it is really not wise to engage Spit in Fw190 without significant alt advantage. Also when Fw190 is facing Spit with disadvantage position (below him), IMHO battle will end up with Spit flyer as a victor most of the times.

Fly high http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

OldMan____
09-01-2004, 12:55 PM
No, point is not engage ALONE. If he had a team mate passing 5 seconds after him on boon.. this one would for sure get you. (and also he needs to improve his aim)

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

JG14_Josf
09-01-2004, 03:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Your statement that fighting in team is not dogfigh is the problem here!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OldMan_,

Please allow me to correct my error. I can't find where I stated the above quote.

You also wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>by your thinking <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me try again to make this as clear as possible and remove any room for error.

The FW190 is not a one on one dog fighter.

The FW190 is a good team dog fighter.

You wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>FW190 are perfectly capable of close combat <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the FW190 meets a Spitfire alone then your statement is false.

I don't expect you to understand this fact since you don't care for lone fighting, however, it remains a fact.

The FW190 is not a good one on one dog fighter (in the game).

The FW190 does not have one on one dogfighting performance advantages.

This statement:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>FW190 are perfectly capable of close combat <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is not true in a one on one situation.

p1ngu666
09-01-2004, 05:56 PM
hm
irl, the 190 is similer specs to spit ya?
bit faster maybe, similer climb or worse?
so co alt, avoiding a head on, the 190 would haveto dive, if spit follows then it could zoomclimb, repeat till it can take down spit.
fb dives are pretty equal, so your stuck really :\

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