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Bewolf
03-26-2004, 05:48 AM
Kay guys, maybe you could help me here.

I am kinda interested into the Greif, as i heared there is one being modelled for FB.

I think everybody knows about this birds flaws, mainly its engines being prone to catch fire.

Now for my question...aside this appearent flaw, how capable was this bird? Compared to other bombers?
I tried a google search, but could't find a lot of information there.
And was this fire problem sorted out in later versions eventually? A4? A5?
(I am not speaking of the later 4 engine nacelle versions)

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Bewolf
03-26-2004, 05:48 AM
Kay guys, maybe you could help me here.

I am kinda interested into the Greif, as i heared there is one being modelled for FB.

I think everybody knows about this birds flaws, mainly its engines being prone to catch fire.

Now for my question...aside this appearent flaw, how capable was this bird? Compared to other bombers?
I tried a google search, but could't find a lot of information there.
And was this fire problem sorted out in later versions eventually? A4? A5?
(I am not speaking of the later 4 engine nacelle versions)

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Spinne_3.-JG51
03-26-2004, 06:03 AM
IMO, not very good. The plane itself may have been capable, but the Luftwaffe never had the strategic vision to use anything like the Grief properly. The Grief is a strategic weapon, so without the vision, I doubt if it could have done much.

http://www.student.richmond.edu/~vk5qa/images/forumsig.jpg

"Come on in, I'll treat you nice! I used to know your father."

Gershy
03-26-2004, 06:34 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spinne_3.-JG51:
IMO, not very good. The plane itself may have been capable, but the Luftwaffe never had the strategic vision to use anything like the Grief properly. The Grief is a strategic weapon, so without the vision, I doubt if it could have done much.
QUOTE]

Yup. If you build a 4 engine bomber and then have to put 2 engines together because some ppl have the weird idea that a bomber should be able to divebomb......well..... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Just imagine the USAF would have decided that the B17 should be a divebomber rofl.

Bewolf
03-26-2004, 06:39 AM
Fair and well, guys...but that does't answer my questions http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Zyzbot
03-26-2004, 07:06 AM
Eric Brown tested the He-177 after the war. His words: "..the Greif went down in my book as a loser. I instinctively felt it to be unreliable and it was one of the very few German aircraft of the period that I tested that I did not enjoy flying."


After the war Ernst Heinkel referred to the plane as "that accursed 177" and he also said,
" I even look more kindly on the He-111Z than that 177."

Hope that partly answers your question.

Wilbus
03-26-2004, 07:07 AM
The idea that it should be able to dive bomb was dropped after a while, they realized a big bomber like that couldn't handle the stress.

The He 177 A5 was the primary version, and engines weren't as prone to catch fire or overheat. In the revenge attacks on London in 1944 the pilots discovered they could climb to almost 30 000 feet before reaching the English coast, after that they could bomb London and avoid fighter attck by going full throttle and diving away in shallow dives, reaching speed of over 700km/h (430mph).

Anti Shipping weapons such as guided bombs and glide torpedoes were used quite successfully against many ships, both by He177's and other planes capeble of carrying these guided bombs and missiles. Good defence armement that could cover most areas around the plane.

The plane was primarly built for anti shipping, thus it couldn't carry a big ordanance of conventional bombs (a mere 1000kg internal). It had 3 extrernal pylons to use with the different anti shipping weapon or sea mines.

As it was designed as anti-shipping plane I think it's difficult to compare it to planes such as the B17 and B24 or Lancaster. However, I'd say all of those planes were much safer and reliable.

one more thing, can't seem to find the info about it again, in the later stages of the war a group of He 177's launched a night strike on a Russian airfield that was being used by B17 crew and Russians alike. A large number of B17's (they were all standing outside unprotected AFAIK) were destroyed in the raid and a large number of Russians were killed. Only a few Americans were killed.

Zyzbot
03-26-2004, 07:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

one more thing, can't seem to find the info about it again, in the later stages of the war a group of He 177's launched a night strike on a Russian airfield that was being used by B17 crew and Russians alike. A large number of B17's (they were all standing outside unprotected AFAIK) were destroyed in the raid and a large number of Russians were killed. Only a few Americans were killed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I believe you are referring to the attack on Poltava. Try this link for a small amount of info:

http://www.390th.org/warstories/Our%20Russian%20Adventure.htm

Wilbus
03-26-2004, 07:21 AM
Thanks Zyzbot and that's for the quotes of those two great men. Guess what I typed isn't very right as I based it on technical facts alone.

On the paper, the plane looks to be good, in R/L it was quite obviously very different.

Wilbus
03-26-2004, 07:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We soon learned that the 45th Combat Wing bombers received a heavy attack overnight by the Germans. Their bombers had been lined up wing tip to wing tip in a straight line parallel with the single concrete runway at Poltava. A plane of the GAF had scored a direct hit on one of the high octane refueling trucks, which exploded and burned fiercely. This fire lighted up the entire parking area and served as a beacon for the follow-on German bombers, which bombed and strafed with only token resistance from the light Russian anti-aircraft guns. The shiny new B-17Gs that were sent to impress the Russians stood out in bright array for the German bomb aimers. The 45th had lost 58 new B-17Gs in this bombing and many more were damaged. The Russian fire department could not cope with the burning and exploding B-17Gs.

American personnel had been sound asleep nearby when this hell broke out. People were running in all directions trying to find a trench to dive into. None were found. With all their ammunition spent and their bombs exhausted the GAF pilots turned west to fly back behind their lines and report a very successful bombing and strafing attack against the Americans at Poltava airfield.

The highly successful raid by the GAF left the 45th Combat Wing with only nine flyable B-17Gs. The airfield was littered with unexploded butterfly anti-personnel and phosphorous incendiary bombs that had to be cleared from the field before it could become operational again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a snip from the link that Zyzbot posted.

The attack was made by He 177's.

probarly the only really successfull attack ever made by the He177.

Bewolf
03-26-2004, 08:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wilbus:
The idea that it should be able to dive bomb was dropped after a while, they realized a big bomber like that couldn't handle the stress.

The He 177 A5 was the primary version, and engines weren't as prone to catch fire or overheat. In the revenge attacks on London in 1944 the pilots discovered they could climb to almost 30 000 feet before reaching the English coast, after that they could bomb London and avoid fighter attck by going full throttle and diving away in shallow dives, reaching speed of over 700km/h (430mph).

Anti Shipping weapons such as guided bombs and glide torpedoes were used quite successfully against many ships, both by He177's and other planes capeble of carrying these guided bombs and missiles. Good defence armement that could cover most areas around the plane.

The plane was primarly built for anti shipping, thus it couldn't carry a big ordanance of conventional bombs (a mere 1000kg internal). It had 3 extrernal pylons to use with the different anti shipping weapon or sea mines.

As it was designed as anti-shipping plane I think it's difficult to compare it to planes such as the B17 and B24 or Lancaster. However, I'd say all of those planes were much safer and reliable.

one more thing, can't seem to find the info about it again, in the later stages of the war a group of He 177's launched a night strike on a Russian airfield that was being used by B17 crew and Russians alike. A large number of B17's (they were all standing outside unprotected AFAIK) were destroyed in the raid and a large number of Russians were killed. Only a few Americans were killed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Greif (right spelling, btw, not Grief. meaning Griffon in german) build for anti shipping ? Are you sure? Or do you mean the A5 here?

I ment to have read somewhere that the greif could carry up to 6000 kg Bombs internally.

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Gooner01
03-26-2004, 08:42 AM
One HE-177 story I came upon recently might be of interest here - especially if it does appear in IL2FB eventually - in 1944, a USAAF B-17 was sent to investigate radio signals in the North Sea - thought to be a German warship. On arrival, the B17 crew found not a warship, but a Greif orbiting and transmitting a homing signal. it is believed the -177's mission was to entice allied a/c to follow this signal, leading to nowhere, and the spoofed a/c would then be lost at sea...the B-17 pilot attacked, and coming up from below and behind, inflicted heavy damage on the 177. The German pilot dropped his flaps and gear, causing the B-17 to overshoot (striking the 177's belly with its tail fin), and it was then the 177's turn to shoot up the B-17, which was itself damaged. The 2 aircraft ended up on parallel courses, firing every gun that would bear at the other aircraft. The 177 crashed at sea, with the entire crew being lost. The B17 returned to base and landed with some difficult due to a jammed rudder. How'd you like to find that mission in IL2FB? Sounds like fun! I'll look around and see if I can find more info on this interesting dogfight!

-G

Bewolf
03-26-2004, 08:51 AM
sounds a bit odd to me..the B17 coming from behind and low...in this case it would be a perfect target for the greifs rear 20 mm cannon. Not the place you want to be being a close, slow and big target i assume http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Gooner01
03-26-2004, 09:29 AM
Bewolf - try this link to the brief account of the B-17/He-177 dogfight...

http://www.yarchive.net/mil/bomber_duel.html

jagdmailer
03-26-2004, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wilbus:
The idea that it should be able to dive bomb was dropped after a while, they realized a big bomber like that couldn't handle the stress.

The He 177 A5 was the primary version, and engines weren't as prone to catch fire or overheat. In the revenge attacks on London in 1944 the pilots discovered they could climb to almost 30 000 feet before reaching the English coast, after that they could bomb London and avoid fighter attck by going full throttle and diving away in shallow dives, reaching speed of over 700km/h (430mph).

Anti Shipping weapons such as guided bombs and glide torpedoes were used quite successfully against many ships, both by He177's and other planes capeble of carrying these guided bombs and missiles. Good defence armement that could cover most areas around the plane.

The plane was primarly built for anti shipping, thus it couldn't carry a big ordanance of conventional bombs (a mere 1000kg internal). It had 3 extrernal pylons to use with the different anti shipping weapon or sea mines.

As it was designed as anti-shipping plane I think it's difficult to compare it to planes such as the B17 and B24 or Lancaster. However, I'd say all of those planes were much safer and reliable.

one more thing, can't seem to find the info about it again, in the later stages of the war a group of He 177's launched a night strike on a Russian airfield that was being used by B17 crew and Russians alike. A large number of B17's (they were all standing outside unprotected AFAIK) were destroyed in the raid and a large number of Russians were killed. Only a few Americans were killed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Greif (right spelling, btw, not Grief. meaning Griffon in german) build for anti shipping ? Are you sure? Or do you mean the A5 here?

I ment to have read somewhere that the greif could carry up to 6000 kg Bombs internally.

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Beo,

Max internal bomb load was 7000kg for short range for the A-5.

ie. up to 2 X SC1800 + 2 X SC 1700

Each of the external pylons could carry up to 2000Kg of bombs & missiles, at the expense of the internal load of course. ie. up to SC2000, Hs 293....

JagdMailer

Bewolf
03-26-2004, 09:41 AM
Kay, this one makes more sense.

Kinda fascinating to imagine this fight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

clone9cz
10-26-2014, 03:33 PM
He 177 Greif is under construction.
https://sites.google.com/site/he177a3r2greif/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unr5a2ImnTc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t610T3D4c5c