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Gadje
08-16-2007, 05:55 PM
Much I read here and much I see in the chatbars of online servers tell me that there are many people falling into denial flying this sim.

If you get shot down by a Spit/190/Ki84..... ad finitum .....it may seem natural to look for the reason in horrid inaccuracy in Olegs FM/DM model but listen to this.....'gentlemen its really because you are not as good as you think you are!'


You wont find the best pilots in this sim (other than Brain!)complaining about this and that of one plane v another.....it matters Jack **** to them and why is this? Its because when you spend the time practicing your flying skills rather than your whining skills you see that the Spit isn't that great, that the 190 can actually mix it up slow speed in a DF if it must, that the 50 cals do fine if you can shoot accurately and every plane is good if you are.

However if you insist on spending your time whining about your plane being undermodelled compared to the one you never fly I am happy to keep shooting you down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
For myself I know that this game has been so amazingly well done that any slight advantage I have learned from practice will be directly shown in terms of greater success in flying against others.
To spell this out the more I practice the better I get and this game in that respect handles this like real life. That to me is amazing in itself, in that there is no learning plateau in this game ...... other than your own. Learn more, do better and WTF to the fact that my Tempest flies 15mph slower than it should at sea level? or what ever!.
Well if I was Oleg I would care and I believe he does and sorts this small (from a good virtual pilots point of view) detail when he is given proof.
Maybe I am wrong and he doesn't care! but if I can still shoot you down in a vastly inferior plane because I am a better pilot I am quite happy with Oleg's game because it rewards my practice and from that comes skill that in a way makes aircraft accuracy ..... well frankly not that big a deal. And certainly not the reason you got shot down.
If I get shot down I get pissed with myself not with my plane and indirectly Oleg, some of you need to learn this approach I think.
On the otherhand these forums would be dead if that was the case http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
RIP http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Gadje
08-16-2007, 05:55 PM
Much I read here and much I see in the chatbars of online servers tell me that there are many people falling into denial flying this sim.

If you get shot down by a Spit/190/Ki84..... ad finitum .....it may seem natural to look for the reason in horrid inaccuracy in Olegs FM/DM model but listen to this.....'gentlemen its really because you are not as good as you think you are!'


You wont find the best pilots in this sim (other than Brain!)complaining about this and that of one plane v another.....it matters Jack **** to them and why is this? Its because when you spend the time practicing your flying skills rather than your whining skills you see that the Spit isn't that great, that the 190 can actually mix it up slow speed in a DF if it must, that the 50 cals do fine if you can shoot accurately and every plane is good if you are.

However if you insist on spending your time whining about your plane being undermodelled compared to the one you never fly I am happy to keep shooting you down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
For myself I know that this game has been so amazingly well done that any slight advantage I have learned from practice will be directly shown in terms of greater success in flying against others.
To spell this out the more I practice the better I get and this game in that respect handles this like real life. That to me is amazing in itself, in that there is no learning plateau in this game ...... other than your own. Learn more, do better and WTF to the fact that my Tempest flies 15mph slower than it should at sea level? or what ever!.
Well if I was Oleg I would care and I believe he does and sorts this small (from a good virtual pilots point of view) detail when he is given proof.
Maybe I am wrong and he doesn't care! but if I can still shoot you down in a vastly inferior plane because I am a better pilot I am quite happy with Oleg's game because it rewards my practice and from that comes skill that in a way makes aircraft accuracy ..... well frankly not that big a deal. And certainly not the reason you got shot down.
If I get shot down I get pissed with myself not with my plane and indirectly Oleg, some of you need to learn this approach I think.
On the otherhand these forums would be dead if that was the case http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
RIP http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

SeaFireLIV
08-16-2007, 06:17 PM
Tell me about it (oh, you already have).

It`s very true that many have complained about certain aircraft in many ways from `It can`t be like this in real life` to `what i think`, simply because they fail to fly like their favoured Ace.

It never occurs to them that their favoured Ace had to train and learn and gain experience. It never occurs to them that fighter pilots fought as a TEAM. Even those that didn`t were often `protected` by their wingman to ensure their status.

It often takes a while for it to sink in for some of them, and boy can they wail... accuse oleg of all kinds of bias in silly `open letters`, threaten litigation ,etc, and I mean they do it in good English and excellent spelling - yet be completely wrong.


That said, some complainers have been correct and have actually helped FMs and DMs to be more realistic. but these `whiners` have often proven their point with accurate information and proof which oleg has accepted.

So not all the whiners are bad.... Just the ones that say `I think` because they can`t be the uber Ace they so wanna be.

Waldo.Pepper
08-16-2007, 06:19 PM
It is also the computer/equipment/configuration you have as well.

Can't trim your plane? Are you using the keyboard for this? No wonder it takes a long time etc etc etc.

AKA_TAGERT
08-16-2007, 06:25 PM
All my ace skills are due to my steller good looks

B16Enk
08-16-2007, 06:30 PM
I could be wrong here.
Wouldn't be the first time either.

But most of the rants/whines relate to historical accuracy, not the affront to the ego that being shot down by an inferior 'plane causes.

And you are absolutely right, airman ship (either real or virtual) is the ultimate deciding factor in aerial combat.

It's why 'Faith, Hope and Charity' is such an enduring tale...

And perhaps why so many here have specialised in one particular AC, yours truly excepted 'cos I'm a tart and they all lure me on like the 'adulterous git' I am http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

A thought provoking post though M8.

MrMojok
08-16-2007, 06:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gadje:
Much I read here and much I see in the chatbars of online servers tell me that there are many people falling into denial flying this sim.

If you get shot down by a Spit/190/Ki84..... ad finitum .....it may seem natural to look for the reason in horrid inaccuracy in Olegs FM/DM model but listen to this.....'gentlemen its really because you are not as good as you think you are!'


You wont find the best pilots in this sim (other than Brain!)complaining about this and that of one plane v another.....it matters Jack **** to them and why is this? Its because when you spend the time practicing your flying skills rather than your whining skills you see that the Spit isn't that great, that the 190 can actually mix it up slow speed in a DF if it must, that the 50 cals do fine if you can shoot accurately and every plane is good if you are.

However if you insist on spending your time whining about your plane being undermodelled compared to the one you never fly I am happy to keep shooting you down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
For myself I know that this game has been so amazingly well done that any slight advantage I have learned from practice will be directly shown in terms of greater success in flying against others.
To spell this out the more I practice the better I get and this game in that respect handles this like real life. That to me is amazing in itself, in that there is no learning plateau in this game ...... other than your own. Learn more, do better and WTF to the fact that my Tempest flies 15mph slower than it should at sea level? or what ever!.
Well if I was Oleg I would care and I believe he does and sorts this small (from a good virtual pilots point of view) detail when he is given proof.
Maybe I am wrong and he doesn't care! but if I can still shoot you down in a vastly inferior plane because I am a better pilot I am quite happy with Oleg's game because it rewards my practice and from that comes skill that in a way makes aircraft accuracy ..... well frankly not that big a deal. And certainly not the reason you got shot down.
If I get shot down I get pissed with myself not with my plane and indirectly Oleg, some of you need to learn this approach I think.
On the otherhand these forums would be dead if that was the case http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
RIP http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good post and good advice, man.

Gadje
08-16-2007, 06:35 PM
There is a huge difference between someone pointing out inaccuracy from a desire for accuracy and someone pontificating inaccuracy from a belief in their invulnerability.

M_Gunz
08-16-2007, 06:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gadje:
If I get shot down I get pissed with myself not with my plane and indirectly Oleg, some of you need to learn this approach I think. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why be angry with yourself for finding good training to take you higher?
The better you get, the fewer those opportunities come along unless you've slipped and maybe
gotten greedy?

That holds with all combat flight sims as well.

VW-IceFire
08-16-2007, 09:26 PM
Good lord...someone is making some sense here. Call in the moderators! Ivan...this man is speaking sense!

Sarcastic replies aside its completely true. Its funny how its always the plane and its modeling at fault. Its never the pilot or his tactics...no the pilot is completely perfect in every way. Thats the major downfall of so many people I think. They never look in the mirror and try to make themselves better.

buzzsaw1939
08-16-2007, 10:28 PM
Ok!... let me get this stright, if I find an inaccuracy in the flight modeling, I'm a whiner? generalizing is not good, nor is arrogance! I have no problem with anything you have said, I see it too. just concider that a lot of these guys might be looking for help with the (sim) and are looking for help from a experienced (sim pilot) because something dosen't seem right, I too need a lot of practice in this (sim) and it dose get better, in this (sim). This (sim) is about haveing fun, not about self professed hot shot (sim pilots) talking down to noobs like it was the real thing, when you imply there is nothing wrong with any of the flight modeling, you are dead wrong! I live with it, because it's a (SIM) and it's (fun)! I got your point, I wonder if your getting mine? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Jaws2002
08-16-2007, 11:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gadje:
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe. They got on your nervs I see bro. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I agree with you.

That "I got shot down because Oleg porked my clown wagon" is so old and boring.
Or " I know that plane is so uber but I never fly it". Not even to balance the teams. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Feathered_IV
08-17-2007, 05:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
All my ace skills are due to my steller good looks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree 100%

carguy_
08-17-2007, 05:04 AM
Yet a month ago I`d wholeheartedly agree.Sfs thingy changed my mind though.

BBB_Hyperion
08-17-2007, 05:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
All my ace skills are due to my steller good looks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Almost asked "Got track(tm)?" but 2nd though was who wants to see that if really delivered ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

M_Gunz
08-17-2007, 05:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Ok!... let me get this stright, if I find an inaccuracy in the flight modeling, I'm a whiner? generalizing is not good, nor is arrogance! I have no problem with anything you have said, I see it too. just concider that a lot of these guys might be looking for help with the (sim) and are looking for help from a experienced (sim pilot) because something dosen't seem right, I too need a lot of practice in this (sim) and it dose get better, in this (sim). This (sim) is about haveing fun, not about self professed hot shot (sim pilots) talking down to noobs like it was the real thing, when you imply there is nothing wrong with any of the flight modeling, you are dead wrong! I live with it, because it's a (SIM) and it's (fun)! I got your point, I wonder if your getting mine? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're going to find places where the sim doesn't just not match your favorite charts but is
beyond the target 5% of the charts for the actual plane and configuration. Get over it already!

Are you the Buzzsaw that found the stall speed of the 109G-6 too low and then when it came
down to it believed that you can test 1G stall while losing alt?

Gee, IL2 is NOT PERFECT.
We should all move on to the PERFECT PC COMBAT FLIGHT SIM.
What is the name of that one?

Ratsack
08-17-2007, 05:47 AM
Gadje,

I agree, mate. Too true.

That said, I'm all for accuracy where a flaw is demonstrated. But there is a whole world of difference between a perceived flaw and a demonstrated one.

cheers,
Ratsack

Spaturnio
08-17-2007, 06:13 AM
...And than, should a game engine fault be recognized as responsible foor a cetain slightly flawed flight model, then the whole thing would be put to rest very fast.

Even the most addicted whiner can accept that you can't rewrite the whole game to put a single plane stright, but asking why some performances are "Proved" out of target is not just human: it's about the whole simulation thing!
I'm not, i.e, debating why La5FN/7 or Spits are good planes because they are just so very good where they excelled in reality, but it's legittimate to ask why a FW190 acceleration is so sluggish, where it was supposed to be brilliant...
This is not complainig about an airplane which is weak where it should be, nor because I can't be an ace flying it (in fact I'm easilly shot down flying an X-Wing): it is just that the FW190A doesn't feel right in some area, and this is a worldspread opinion, not just mine.
Historical tests are open for checking and everybody have access to them

This being said, BoB will be out soon, so there is space for improvement in simming.

Gadje
08-17-2007, 06:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaws2002:

Hehe. They got on your nervs I see bro. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif Yep Jaws sorry! but my pills have now been taken and I currently believe I got shot down last night because of Oleg's bias so all is now well.

MEGILE
08-17-2007, 06:15 AM
P-51 is nerfed. See the truth noobs. the end is nigh

Feathered_IV
08-17-2007, 06:30 AM
Our P-51 is shirt-hot. I've been mucking about with it at 25000ft for the last two weeks (no pun intended). Nothing can touch it. All those shirt lifting pansies who reckon it's been spayed need a trip to the woodshed.

You can see anywhere, fly as high and as fast as you like. You can go ten times to buggery and back and still have enough fuel to get home....

Try it today. Or as my new T-shirt says:

"Put the YOU into, P-51 C-NT!!!"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

MEGILE
08-17-2007, 06:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:


"Put the YOU into, P-51 C-NT!!!"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO.
Teh winz http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

buzzsaw1939
08-17-2007, 10:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Ok!... let me get this stright, if I find an inaccuracy in the flight modeling, I'm a whiner? generalizing is not good, nor is arrogance! I have no problem with anything you have said, I see it too. just concider that a lot of these guys might be looking for help with the (sim) and are looking for help from a experienced (sim pilot) because something dosen't seem right, I too need a lot of practice in this (sim) and it dose get better, in this (sim). This (sim) is about haveing fun, not about self professed hot shot (sim pilots) talking down to noobs like it was the real thing, when you imply there is nothing wrong with any of the flight modeling, you are dead wrong! I live with it, because it's a (SIM) and it's (fun)! I got your point, I wonder if your getting mine? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're going to find places where the sim doesn't just not match your favorite charts but is
beyond the target 5% of the charts for the actual plane and configuration. Get over it already!

Are you the Buzzsaw that found the stall speed of the 109G-6 too low and then when it came
down to it believed that you can test 1G stall while losing alt?

Gee, IL2 is NOT PERFECT.
We should all move on to the PERFECT PC COMBAT FLIGHT SIM.
What is the name of that one? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

M_Gunz..Where in h*** are you comeing from? I've never quoted from a chart in here, I don't need to! I haven't even tried the 109 yet. I suppose I could make my self a little more clear! How about this? I'm seeing a lot of whineing about whiners, (and) I don't see whineing, I see frustration! you may not understand that, because it's a wisdom thing. when I post, it's for info or to help. A lot of guys in here are always talking about how realistic and accurite this sim is, I agree! for the most part.
Try to understand that some of us come from the real world, and our first toy wasn't a computer.

When we see something that dosen't look right, we mention it in different ways, God forbid, we have insulted your way of life.

I personaly appreciate the help in understanding how the sim works, I don't need some hot shot sim fighter jock or programer telling me I don't know how to fly or don't know what I'm seeing.

My compliant about this thread is the additude I'm seeing, that if you don't see things through my eyes, or don't do it my way, you don't belong in here. when did it become an exclusive club for sim heros? dosen't impress me in the least. I'm in here for fun, not criticism, now I would suggest you get over it already? or at least read my post more carefully before you come back on it!

Gadje
08-17-2007, 11:41 AM
Frankly you dont get it at all, maybe its a language thing?
The attitude is this- If someone is getting shot down more than they think they should be, don't blame the game or the developer for this I am suggesting look to yourself and your skill level, how much do you practice?.
There is nothing arrogant in this statement IMO its arrogance to go around telling everyone that Oleg feked your plane and thats why you aren't any good. The 'Look to yourself'(if you want to blame anyone!) approach I use myself and I find it true for me and see it in the good pilots I meet online. I dont see the 'Blame everything but myself' approach much in so-called-noobs either its more prevalent in some of the more seasoned players. A chip that size takes time to grow http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
If you are new and feel frustrated join a squad as I did, thats the quickest way to learn but ffs dont go blaming your ride all the time you will not get any better that way.

Its an opinion and some (unasked for http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) advice to some players here from an experienced player. you are free to take it or call it arrogant and then leave it if you wish.

Ratsack
08-17-2007, 11:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
...

Try it today. Or as my new T-shirt says:

"Put the YOU into, P-51 C-NT!!!"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be a cunning stunt.

Ratsack

DuxCorvan
08-17-2007, 12:12 PM
I get it: It's all Gadje's fault. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

alert_1
08-17-2007, 12:26 PM
The fact is I have never saw any Spit or La pilot complain about anything. And I tell you why: because those ones are the best of th best and can easily cope with FM&DM of their mounts....

buzzsaw1939
08-17-2007, 12:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gadje:
Frankly you dont get it at all, maybe its a language thing?
The attitude is this- If someone is getting shot down more than they think they should be, don't blame the game or the developer for this I am suggesting look to yourself and your skill level, how much do you practice?.
There is nothing arrogant in this statement IMO its arrogance to go around telling everyone that Oleg feked your plane and thats why you aren't any good. The 'Look to yourself'(if you want to blame anyone!) approach I use myself and I find it true for me and see it in the good pilots I meet online. I dont see the 'Blame everything but myself' approach much in so-called-noobs either its more prevalent in some of the more seasoned players. A chip that size takes time to grow http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
If you are new and feel frustrated join a squad as I did, thats the quickest way to learn but ffs dont go blaming your ride all the time you will not get any better that way.

Its an opinion and some (unasked for http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) advice to some players here from an experienced player. you are free to take it or call it arrogant and then leave it if you wish. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, I do get it, and you are right, and I agree with every thing you are saying, like I said, I see it too, I just have more tolerance than most, I would like to see more help than criticism, or makeing fun of those that don't understand, thats the arrogance I'm talking about, It dosen't help anybody to talk down to people from a lofty perch of sim experiance. I realize you are talking about those that argue for thier limitations, instead of practiceing, I have a problem with the generalizeing that any body that sees a flaw, is a whiner. Your probably right, it's a lanquage thing. Peace! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Blood_Splat
08-17-2007, 12:46 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJy-0Lw4Nak http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

buzzsaw1939
08-17-2007, 01:00 PM
huh?... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif..Pervert? .. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif..Good one! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Ratsack
08-17-2007, 01:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alert_1:
The fact is I have never saw any Spit or La pilot complain about anything. And I tell you why: because those ones are the best of th best and can easily cope with FM&DM of their mounts.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, remember Pingu?

cheers,
Ratsack

crucislancer
08-17-2007, 05:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gadje:
The attitude is this- If someone is getting shot down more than they think they should be, don't blame the game or the developer for this I am suggesting look to yourself and your skill level, how much do you practice?.
There is nothing arrogant in this statement IMO its arrogance to go around telling everyone that Oleg feked your plane and thats why you aren't any good. The 'Look to yourself'(if you want to blame anyone!) approach I use myself and I find it true for me and see it in the good pilots I meet online. I dont see the 'Blame everything but myself' approach much in so-called-noobs either its more prevalent in some of the more seasoned players. A chip that size takes time to grow http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
If you are new and feel frustrated join a squad as I did, thats the quickest way to learn but ffs dont go blaming your ride all the time you will not get any better that way.

Its an opinion and some (unasked for http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) advice to some players here from an experienced player. you are free to take it or call it arrogant and then leave it if you wish. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lot's of truth here.

I know for a fact that I need a lot of practice online. Offline I do pretty well, but a human opponent is way more challenging then the AI, for obvious reasons.

I haven't joined a squad, and I'm really not sure if I will right now since my time is so limited that online playing is something I may do once or twice a week, but I can see how I could benefit from the experience of those in a squad.

I keep practicing, though. I'll set up quick missions against AI aces with Mission Mate, go full switch, and try to survive. I read up on ACMs, and I try my best to remember when and how to use them. I try to fly as many different a/c as possible, to learn the in's and out's of each, so if I find that my online choices are limited, I'm a little better prepared, and I know what I might be facing.

I get a little better each time. I don't expect to be an ace anytime soon, but I expect at some point I'll be good enough to survive just a little longer then the last time, and maybe catch someone naping and smoke him.

And the folks online that are experienced have been quite helpful, and I always appreciate the advice when I do something boneheaded.

Lucius_Esox
08-17-2007, 05:38 PM
Blood Splat... Lol m8

Of course it's the bl00dy games fault... it got me addicted in the first place.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think the saying "there's nowt as blind as those that cannot see" fits this...

Does anyone "honestly" ever blame the plane?

Well anyone who can fly ok that is.

Von_Rat
08-17-2007, 05:48 PM
i rarely get shot down by spits, thats not going to stop me complaining about them. lol.

JG4_Greif
08-17-2007, 05:57 PM
Yap, I also say, that before complaining about a plane, that it is ueber or too good, fly it for a while and you will see that it isn`t that ueber.
Depending on FM: How can someone know under which circumstances the plane was test flown, which armament, which weather. Then flyable oldtimer these days fly without ammo, are much lighter, what if they get the additional weight, how will they fly then.
Do you think that captured planes who were compared to own planes, were really flown to its limits or did thous guys know what the native nations knew about the planes(how to improve something, which tricks to use).
These are all questions which need to be considered before complaining about the FM in game and how it really was.
I am really please with the game how it is.
I wait for the times, when air is simulated right, then the plane is build like it was in real (weight, rudders, rpm, centre of gravity) and the rest is only phisics, no need to simulate FM it comes automatically. I hope you guys understand what I wanted to say with this (it is difficult to write this in english) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

stansdds
08-18-2007, 10:05 AM
Yeah, I think most of the whining about a favorite plane being porked or an opponent's plane being uber modeled is due to a player's inexperience, inability, or lack of knowledge of where their crate performs the best and use of proper tactics than anything else. Is the flight model in IL2 perfect? No, but I have yet see the perfect sim, have you? My gripes about IL2 revolve around a lack of key maps and incorrect weapons load outs, AI that are stupid and sometimes defy physics and lack of good wind modeling (necessary for carrier ops), but the player flight models seem pretty good.

buzzsaw1939
08-18-2007, 11:25 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

M_Gunz
08-18-2007, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by M_Gunz:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Ok!... let me get this stright, if I find an inaccuracy in the flight modeling, I'm a whiner? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then get it straight -- not every time.

You have already taken a loaded position from start. I can guess how you might proceed.

We have people making claims all the time that are not taken as whining. There have been many
discussions started that way. Then everyone with a peeve, counter-peeve or agenda jumps in.
Start a thread discussing the COLOR of a Spitfire, 109, FW, or most any other plane and find
out how badly totally different Plane X or Y is under or over-modeled. That is from whining.

Whining takes persistance and tone. Synonym for whining is nagging.

And yes, you can repeat any of the 100's of old issues already whined about. How you decide
to proceed MAY be taken as whining, like if you bring nothing new and accept no refutations.

For TWO YEARS there was whining about 151/20's. There was something wrong but what it was
was not addressed in the bawling, not at all. All that BS did was to make it very hard for
those that found the real issue to get through to Oleg about it. Once the REAL problem was
communicated there was a fix in the next patch though of course the NOISE continued until
that day as if patches are simple as posting here.

So F-Yeah I have a problem with the whining, IT SLOWS DOWN AND SOMETIMES STOPS GOOD FIXES!

Just for you: tuning a physics-based FM is not simple at all. If it runs on PC it will never
be right everywhere, there will always be something for someone to pick at. ALWAYS.
We get changes and improvements as the team is able, doesn't prove the older way was no good.

BTW, we do have another Buzzsaw that has his own ways of finding errors. When he was shown
that FAA and EAA have different definition of what is a stall than his interpretation of ONE
passage of an article describing stalling a 109G, his counter was that FAA is theory only.
That is about aircraft certification methods --- theory!

So I ASKED if you are him and I am very glad you are not.

Whiners here used to be majority but no longer. The ones that are do try harder though!

M_Gunz
08-18-2007, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
makeing fun of those that don't understand </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only the ones that don't understand and won't learn, won't accept what degreed pros point out
but still insist on poor basis that they are right and the sim/all of science is badly wrong
and then demand fixes/changes.

bigbossmalone
08-18-2007, 04:40 PM
Geez, guys...
we should maybe take a moment here to remember with all these issues, that most of thr RL pilots who ACTUALLY flew these planes during the war, didn't often get the chance to moan about what could've or should've been - in fact, many of them who got shot down the first time never spoke to any one again, and I doubt if those who survived, would be saying things like 'plane X isn't supposed to be able to do this or that, they'd probably be happy just to be alive...
Just a thought... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

joeap
08-18-2007, 05:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG4_Greif:

I am really please with the game how it is.
I wait for the times, when air is simulated right, then the plane is build like it was in real (weight, rudders, rpm, centre of gravity) and the rest is only phisics, no need to simulate FM it comes automatically. I hope you guys understand what I wanted to say with this (it is difficult to write this in english) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem I understood very well, I would love to see that day too. It would take some serious computers though. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

stalkervision
08-18-2007, 06:28 PM
"Damn this ain't my fault. My plane is really porked! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9173/grab0033aj1.jpg

stalkervision
08-18-2007, 06:36 PM
"Damn Erich apparently mine is too! What am I gonna tell Stalin? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Well maybe my chute will fail! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1309/grab0054ae9.jpg

SeaFireLIV
08-18-2007, 07:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:

Whiners here used to be majority but no longer. The ones that are do try harder though! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aye. I remember well the incessant whining about fms\dms that used to go on and on with everyone and their grand mommy jumping on the bandwagon. what got me was the fact that many whiners were using ligitimate whines as an excuse just to get other planes ruined and their fave plane strengthed(ubered), REGARDLESS of the actual fact of the reality.

It came home to me in one particular case where someone posted guncam footage saying their aircraft could do a particular feat. when i looked at the footage this was clearly not the case, but the poster interpreted that way cos it`s what he wanted to see. I saw many more examples of this.

In most cases, oleg did not not collapse the deluge of whining.

It seems that either the whiners have gone or some have simply realised that reality as a fighter pilot isn`t so simple as to jump in your fave plane and shoot 6 enemy aircraft down on full settings, rambo style. there are still the odd rampant, "I can`t belive X aircraft is so bugged. Oleg is biased. You all hate me!" whine that sometimes seems to threaten to take over the entire forum, but all in all it ain`t too bad.

We even had a recent convert who apologised when the reality of flight and WWII aircraft hit home. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

buzzsaw1939
08-18-2007, 09:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by M_Gunz:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Ok!... let me get this stright, if I find an inaccuracy in the flight modeling, I'm a whiner? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then get it straight -- not every time.

You have already taken a loaded position from start. I can guess how you might proceed.

We have people making claims all the time that are not taken as whining. There have been many
discussions started that way. Then everyone with a peeve, counter-peeve or agenda jumps in.
Start a thread discussing the COLOR of a Spitfire, 109, FW, or most any other plane and find
out how badly totally different Plane X or Y is under or over-modeled. That is from whining.

Whining takes persistance and tone. Synonym for whining is nagging.

And yes, you can repeat any of the 100's of old issues already whined about. How you decide
to proceed MAY be taken as whining, like if you bring nothing new and accept no refutations.

For TWO YEARS there was whining about 151/20's. There was something wrong but what it was
was not addressed in the bawling, not at all. All that BS did was to make it very hard for
those that found the real issue to get through to Oleg about it. Once the REAL problem was
communicated there was a fix in the next patch though of course the NOISE continued until
that day as if patches are simple as posting here.

So F-Yeah I have a problem with the whining, IT SLOWS DOWN AND SOMETIMES STOPS GOOD FIXES!

Just for you: tuning a physics-based FM is not simple at all. If it runs on PC it will never
be right everywhere, there will always be something for someone to pick at. ALWAYS.
We get changes and improvements as the team is able, doesn't prove the older way was no good.

BTW, we do have another Buzzsaw that has his own ways of finding errors. When he was shown
that FAA and EAA have different definition of what is a stall than his interpretation of ONE
passage of an article describing stalling a 109G, his counter was that FAA is theory only.
That is about aircraft certification methods --- theory!

So I ASKED if you are him and I am very glad you are not.

Whiners here used to be majority but no longer. The ones that are do try harder though! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

M_Gunz... I would appolgize if I tought I was out of line, I truly think Gadje was right about a language thing, or lets just call it a generation gap.

when I felt you guys were excersizeing gang mentality, my personal instinct is to start swinging, (thats my nature), while trying to explain my position.

I'm glad your glad that I'm the wrong Buzzsaw! It stuck me that you were just trying to make me look stupid, by makeing stuff up! Thats why I went after you so hard.

Now that I know it was a mistake, and not a personal attack, I can cool off, and have already!

I've been trying to make you guys understand where I'm comeing from, but I'm failing, thats probably my fault, wouldn't be the first time!

Try to emagine for a moment, your approaching 70 years old, your a commercial pilot, with over 10,000 hrs, you always had a fantasy of being a fighter pilot in world war 2, you find this sim, get it going, and wow, it's the greatest thing you've ever seen, you find this forum, and every bodys helping each other, so you make a comment in here that the ground objects look to small, and holy c***, every bodies pouncing on you like you have no right to an opinion, your totally wrong, and you know nothing about flying! this comeing from mostly guys who learned to fly on a sim.

Like I've been saying over and over, I don't disagree with the subject!! and I do understand what your saying, and I do AGREE! What I believed I was seeing, was, that same kind of gang mentality, apparently I don't have the ability to comunicate in writeing with younger people. believe it or not, I'm not trying to be a trouble maker, I guess I should have just stayed out of it, But I didn't, so now I have to explain myself, and I hate that! sense you don't understand my meaning in that reply, I will just have to live with it, and suggest you guys just ignore me, so we can get back to the fun stuff. Now every body put your guns up, I surrender! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

M_Gunz
08-18-2007, 09:40 PM
Saw that thread, the little men are artificial big perhaps for pixel detail.
They make things look small.
Some thread like that I did post Escort Carrier vs Fleet Carrier size data.

I still don't understand why the sim stores small scale models and shows them larger,
it's not like the files will take less space is it? That's like the joke about the
secretary using a smaller font to save disk space, I knew a guy that did try to convince
on that her files were too big causea font size back in the 80's.

Have fun with the sim for sure and go check out the forums at www.simhq.com (http://www.simhq.com).
You are at The Zoo here. There is no law against visiting multiple forums and that one
you will see a very different crowd on average, more uptown.

VW-IceFire
08-19-2007, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alert_1:
The fact is I have never saw any Spit or La pilot complain about anything. And I tell you why: because those ones are the best of th best and can easily cope with FM&DM of their mounts.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Could be demographics. The predominantly Spitfire and La pilots don't know the ways in which their mounts may be under or over performing. All they know is that they are scoring kills...and lets be honest...its easier to score a kill in a turn and burn fighter when you don't know anything different.

It does take some more work to learn the energy fighter but once you do its just as easy.

But thats not the point of the original post either. The point is that people, regardless of plane (some more than others), are always blaming something else other than themselves. This isn't unique to this game...its a pandemic in society right now. Its always the other persons fault, its the governments fault, its the car manufacturers fault, its the school boards fault, and so on and so forth. And hey...sometimes it is...but how many of you stop and think "Is this really my fault or if its not what can I do to mitigate the problem and resolve it?". Thats the problem.

Even when there really were some serious problems with certain aircraft (anyone remember the Ki-61 in Pacific Fighters 3.00?) the question everyone should have been asking was "how can I make this work given the current situation". Had the Ki-61 been the Mustang when that happened...there wouldn't have been any other posts on this forum.

But its just easier to blame everyone else...

M_Gunz
08-19-2007, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But its just easier to blame everyone else... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why bother when they can blame one name every time? O-L-E-G !

stalkervision
08-19-2007, 11:52 AM
I believe it is people getting into planes they just don't know how to handle properly. The Fw-190 is an example. Great guns but the way it flies must take a lot of inexperianced pilots by surprise. One really has to change one's flying style to fly it well. I fly the Me-109 most often and the change into a fw-190 flying agains't spitfires is dramatic. I have to totally change how I fly to do well agains't the Spitfire in the 190.

M_Gunz
08-19-2007, 12:18 PM
Not for anyone in specific, not pointing even generally but:

Jumping from plane to plane is about a guarantee of being mediocre at best.
Sorry but it's true.
Not noticing the difference, just hang a sign on yourself and save talking/typing.

DustyBarrels77
08-19-2007, 01:07 PM
The original posters is hilarious, in this game fm is everything. Those who fly them all know this. They win easily with no regaurd of e management, 1 shot burst killability and low medium and high alt.

There is no question about it fm is everything in this game over pilot skill although that makes a difference slightly as well. Mind of energy state

Not to name any names but people who been here for 5 years+ who i think are excellent in teamwork and skill I can easily destroy thier entire squadron of 6-7 players when they are in corsairs with the ki84 or yak in some of the korean war scenarios. FM is everything in this game at thats it. What would be nice is if oleg gave us a host option even tho its not realistic in storms of war to have a check mark for online playing giving each side the same dm weapons effect and fm for even playing purposes for both sides making pilot skill what matters even tho its not realistic. It would be very good for tournements and an added feature to the game.

Right now japanes vs russian and russian vs german and german vs japanese are the only almost equal planesets either side mid and low alts but the russian ac are winning the highalt fight where they shouldnt be over ac like the anton for just an example which is way under performing above 6000m but over performing under.

Id say the arcade ac capable of destroying entire squadrons solo are the la series zeke ki100 109 190 ki84 george spit basically you win in all catagories with no regaurd of any flying sence possible because of fm alone, dont get me wrong theres others like the i185 etc but wont go there with the what if ac... even the mig3 vs usn and us is hilarous winning wise, and one of the equal fms with the 109g2 f2 f4 still just a little bit of bnz mentality in these ac is all you need and win that along with the turn fight everytime so easy. The anton cant turn well low speed but flies like the ki84 in every other catagory. The game is very off and fms are everything here no and if or buts about that.

Look at pf 3.0 right out of the box, the corsair and hellcat and zeke they flew exactly like the ki84 190 109 la7 etc..

then the lagg3 and p39 for so many patchs flew the same as the 109g2 f2 f4 but got whined/changed bigtime from the majority of blue whines. While i agree they were overdone as well so are the other ac which need toning down in alot of areas and for the 190a for example needs an increase above 6000m. Just a part of the game everything changes one patch changes back another patch and vice versa

look back in fb out of the box the p40 109k4 hurricane and i153 flew very similar.

The game is very off and always will be anyone with out a favorite plane mentality can see this still that being said the game offers so much content which gave us countless hours of fun online but fm debates will never end and basically all are wrong unless you step back and see it from both sides over being a fanboy. Thats why i think it would be wise for oleg to make some sort of universal fm dm weap etc as a host option which would end the debate of fms for us online and would be very fun to be on equal terms over fms we dont agree with.

Just my 2 cents.. sure many here will disagree and im sure those are the ones who fly 2-3 ac they can do very well in having very mediocre skill at flying the game thinking they are something special. The finns and jg53 squad i respect because they are excellent in blue and red as well flying all sides equally, its very rare to find squadrons who fly all planesets equally in this community.

Dont get me wrong fi dagje i understand where your coming from its like the spit fliers crying about the 109g2 and the 109ers crying about the spit when basically they are the same fm, spit holds a tiny bit e inthe tnb but is more unstable breaks up in a dive lower speed then the 109s but has a much weaker dm, one of the weakest in game, some people complain of cheats etc fm debates after a death. I could under stand the usn fellows tho when I kill 6-8 of them while a single and them working as a team in the zeke george or ki84 gets fustrating for them even with the alt advantage 2-3 bnzing while 2 stay high and cap. dms and weap effectiveness are also a hugh prob of this game where the weak are strong and those known for being strong exploding into oleg dust n pieces from a 1 sec burst vs 2-3 passes.

But theres nothing we can do about it, talking about it a forum does nothing at all its out of our hands and we can just take what we get, and thats one of the reasons i would like to see 3 choices of a global fm as a host lock option for all sides if possible to end the fm discussions and give everyone a equal fm for all sides where teamwork and pilot skill is all that matters. Would bring the fun back into the game for me anyways even tho its not realistic anything is better then listening to fm debates, and those who provide all the device link charts do testing etc dont even get heard.

for 3 global fms would be nice to see ki84 g2 190 la7 like as arcade, then maybe the 51 fm as med then have the corsair or jug as difficult global fm as host options but not for here for storms of war for us onliners only.

VW-IceFire
08-19-2007, 01:31 PM
Hilarious but no...not really.

mortoma
08-19-2007, 04:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
It is also the computer/equipment/configuration you have as well.

Can't trim your plane? Are you using the keyboard for this? No wonder it takes a long time etc etc etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually it does not take long to trim with the keyboard once you're good at it. If you hold down the CTRL key with the arrows, it moves the trim pretty fast. If you hit the up/down arrows repeatedly it can take a while. But they will respond quickly if you hold them down a second or two. I've gotten quite good at it by doing it so long.

Feathered_IV
08-19-2007, 06:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DustyBarrels77:
The original posters is hilarious, in this game fm is everything.

Not to name any names but people who been here for 5 years+ who i think are excellent in teamwork and skill I can easily destroy thier entire squadron of 6-7 players when they are in corsairs with the ki84 or yak in some of the korean war scenarios. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IF you could provide a track of you single handedly destroying an entire squad of coordinated players, I'd very much like to see it. I'm sure we would all learn something.

Grand_Armee
08-19-2007, 10:54 PM
I refuse to believe that just because I have been shot down, pilot killed, or had my controls shot up in every type (repeatedly) that I have taken into the simulated air that it is my fault.

...oh brother...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gadje
08-21-2007, 03:57 AM
Hmm! an interesting point of view DustyBarrels. And flight model is important but aircraft have differing fm in this game just as they did in real life. Your example of shooting down Corsairs tryin to climb up under your Ki-84,if the Corsair pilots were complaining about your aircraft or their aircraft, they are wrong. The problem here is the pilots tactics or their skill level or both. Corsairs trying to slowly climb up underneath a well flown Ki-84 is suicide. Pilot mistake again, not Oleg's.

Of course I agree if I meet an equal, better or even slightly less skilled pilot at even energy and I'm in an inferior plane I am probally going to lose, so no real error here either on my part(unless I am in a faster plane, in which case its not really inferior) or from the developer. I could whine 'you only shot me down because you were in a .......? you N00b' but I'd just be being a bad loser.
If roles were swapped and my opponent said the above, I might suggest we go to HL and try a 1v1 in the same plane. And this is why I cant see the point in having differing planes with the same FM as I think you suggest as an option. If you really want to test pilot(dogfighting) skill do a same plane 1v1 2v2 as you find in IL-2 competition matches. Otherwise the difference in the various aircrafts fm is what makes the sim so interesting.

p.s I fly all planes in this Sim and I do not believe as you do that this gives me the right to say in regards to fm- 'basically all are wrong' WTH?

If I studied charts as some do here then perhaps not being a 'Fanboi', might help, but I don't. I appreciate those that do to point out bad inaccuracy and I'm sure when geniune so do the developers.