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View Full Version : Can we please have tracer/AP/HE rounds ratio for the guns/cannons?



jimDG
08-30-2005, 08:16 AM
Well, in case anyone in charge reads this: can we please have more weapons options for the guns/cannons?

a tracer-to-AP/HE rounds ratio slider/drop list would be great - I would personally rather use 100% tracer than anything else - being the bad shot I am - this way I can see where things go and improve. I'm particularly bad at the 12mm MG lead shooting - those seem to have the fewest tracer round in the belts. And I excel at the 7mm MGs (having the most tracer)

But thats not just me - lots of pilots in the WW2 had their own prefered ratios - lots of tracer being favored by some as a way to make the opponent very nervous (the gunners in the dambusting raids, for instance), and none at all by others so that they could shoot at the oponent and miss without alerting him that he is being shot at.

Also, when it comes to 20 and 30 mm cannons - there was a vast multitude of different rounds and combinations of rounds that were used - Incendiary, tracer, AP, HE, and the germans had the "mine" HE, whis really rediced thin aluminium plating to shreads.
(there were more - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_151/20_cannon but just those would be fine)
The german bomber intercepor squadrons cooked up their own AP/HP/Tracer/Incendiary belt ratios for the best way to down a b17..

jimDG
08-30-2005, 08:16 AM
Well, in case anyone in charge reads this: can we please have more weapons options for the guns/cannons?

a tracer-to-AP/HE rounds ratio slider/drop list would be great - I would personally rather use 100% tracer than anything else - being the bad shot I am - this way I can see where things go and improve. I'm particularly bad at the 12mm MG lead shooting - those seem to have the fewest tracer round in the belts. And I excel at the 7mm MGs (having the most tracer)

But thats not just me - lots of pilots in the WW2 had their own prefered ratios - lots of tracer being favored by some as a way to make the opponent very nervous (the gunners in the dambusting raids, for instance), and none at all by others so that they could shoot at the oponent and miss without alerting him that he is being shot at.

Also, when it comes to 20 and 30 mm cannons - there was a vast multitude of different rounds and combinations of rounds that were used - Incendiary, tracer, AP, HE, and the germans had the "mine" HE, whis really rediced thin aluminium plating to shreads.
(there were more - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_151/20_cannon but just those would be fine)
The german bomber intercepor squadrons cooked up their own AP/HP/Tracer/Incendiary belt ratios for the best way to down a b17..

Taylortony
08-30-2005, 03:53 PM
funny thing is we do have tracer, you can see it from others guns in the distance but not when up close...weird that didnt realise till you said

jimDG
09-01-2005, 06:43 AM
I think the representation is right - from the cockpit the tracer rounds do not look like streaks, as they do from a distance (just bright spots). So I think thats realistic.

But with 1 tracer round every 10 non tracer rounds I see a bright spot going somewhere every half a second or so (for the big caliber guns), which is not really very helpfull for walking the guns stream over a target.

It is fine with the ShKAS (the "green tracer") - it has such a high firing rate that the 1 in 10 tracer rounds (or whatever the ratio is) "happen" very often, so it does look like a stream (of dots going away from the crosshair in the plane of the screen)
This is not the case with higher calibers (i.e. slower firing rates)

What I do is look at things two dimentionally (and lead shooting is a 2D problem, mathematicaly, if gravity round drop is ignored at extreme ranges) - in the plane of the screen. Suppose I'm turning and firing the guns in the air. What we see is a crosshair in the middle, and some bright dots going away from it (in a direction opposite to that of the turn).
With lots of tracer rounds (or tracer round happening very often), this looks like a continuous stream of "smoke" made of little bright dots, comming out of the crosshair.
(both the germans and the russians called this "sewing", an allusion to using a sewing machine)
Below 500m range, the lead depends mostly on the muzzle velocity of the guns and the target angle, and little on speeds and range. So where the "smoke" connects to a target
is mostly about getting the target's angle right, and having a feel for the muzzle velocity based on the speed with which the tracer "smoke" goes away from the crosshair. So you dont actually need to remember muzzle velocities if you've got enough tracer.

With little tracer rounds or slower firing rate this looks like a bright dot comming out of the crosshair every once in a while. Not really a "stream" that can be aimed (or that I can learn to aim without much tracer, in a turn)

A partial remedy to this is to bank turn very close to the ground, and keep the nose down with the rudder. So shooting now results in hits on the ground, and every round produces a little ground explosion or a dust cloud, so the impact/position of every round can be seen, not just the tracer. This method however is very imprecise - a small variation in height/bank angle will produce different round flight time ('til impact), so its quite hard to get an impression/intuition on the lead required for different guns (which is my ultimate goal).

HotelBushranger
09-01-2005, 08:18 AM
I've always thought that the ammo combos in Il2/PF were 100% tracer. Jump into a P-40 of P-51 and strafe a street, notice the ground only splurts where the tracers land...

JG53Frankyboy
09-01-2005, 08:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
I've always thought that the ammo combos in Il2/PF were 100% tracer. Jump into a P-40 of P-51 and strafe a street, notice the ground only splurts where the tracers land... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh no , make slowmation and than fire some weapons "shot by shot" you will see there are lot more rounds than the tracers !

F19_Ob
09-01-2005, 08:40 AM
If I recall correctly there "may" be some options for ammobelt in BoB.
Cant be sure it was oleg that said that though.

Xiolablu3
09-01-2005, 07:27 PM
I find it appallingly hard to get hits with the Doras MGs, I think I have only got one kill with MG once I have run out of Cannon, ever.

I dont know if Im getting hits and they dont do anything or Im just missing a lot.

They just dont sem to do a darn thing....

tigertalon
09-01-2005, 07:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
Jump into a P-40 of P-51 and strafe a street, notice the ground only splurts where the tracers land... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, try to strafe water during a low speed sharp turn. You will notica many splurts between the tracers. 4 to be precise.

jimDG
09-02-2005, 12:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I find it appallingly hard to get hits with the Doras MGs, I think I have only got one kill with MG once I have run out of Cannon, ever.

I dont know if Im getting hits and they dont do anything or Im just missing a lot.

They just dont sem to do a darn thing.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You would only know if you get a cockpit hit at more than 45deg. and kill the pilot (at a lesser angle it would hit the armored seat). But 45 deg is about 1.5 rings of lead (for most guns) so that's quite difficult to get right..Well, it is 1.5 rings according to this gunnery simulator
http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/SC_2_Eng.zip. The WW2 manuals on gunnery, said, I think, that 45 deg is just 1 ring of lead (i.e. target should be on the ring). So without proper tracer we will never know how to get this done without wasting ammo.