PDA

View Full Version : Question about German aircraft in post war Air Forces



Warrington_Wolf
08-29-2007, 02:02 PM
I know that numerous air forces equipped themselves with Me-109s after WW2, notable examples are the Spanish and Isreali air forces. My question is did any air forces use the FW-190 in their post war air forces, and if not, why?
I would imagine that the FW-190 would have been a better choice because of its increased firepower (over the Me-109), durable radial engine and wide track landing gear.

Warrington_Wolf
08-29-2007, 02:02 PM
I know that numerous air forces equipped themselves with Me-109s after WW2, notable examples are the Spanish and Isreali air forces. My question is did any air forces use the FW-190 in their post war air forces, and if not, why?
I would imagine that the FW-190 would have been a better choice because of its increased firepower (over the Me-109), durable radial engine and wide track landing gear.

Heliopause
08-29-2007, 02:21 PM
France had a small production run of Fw 190's after the war. Apparently engine trouble killed the project.
Czecho-Slowakia made a number of Me 262's after the war.

FPSOLKOR
08-29-2007, 02:23 PM
Turkey had some 190's flying side by side with Spits. VVS had some FW's in Luberetskaya school of dogfight (aprox the same as top gun in US)

Capt.LoneRanger
08-29-2007, 02:28 PM
The Me109 was in service in Spain until the mid 50s, most of them from post-war-productions in Spain (Ha-1109).

Czechoslovakia also built a large number of 109s after WW2 for service in Czech and Israel Air Forces.

RocketDog
08-29-2007, 02:39 PM
The Fw-190 wasn't used because the bar at the base of the armored-glass windscreen blocked the view forward.

Cheers,

RD.

BerkshireHunt
08-29-2007, 02:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Warrington_Wolf:
I know that numerous air forces equipped themselves with Me-109s after WW2, notable examples are the Spanish and Isreali air forces. My question is did any air forces use the FW-190 in their post war air forces, and if not, why?
I would imagine that the FW-190 would have been a better choice because of its increased firepower (over the Me-109), durable radial engine and wide track landing gear. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Czechoslowakia had a Messerschmitt satellite factory on its soil complete with jigs. It was comparatively easy for it to manufacture '109s after the war - and it had no native fighter designs readily available.
AFAIK Focke Wulf didn't set up satellite production of its fighter designs anywhere other than Germany, so there was no viable manufacturing facility left after the war. In any case, the occupying powers - Russia, US, Britain, France - were more interested in producing jet aircraft post 1945. The '190 was 'old hat'.
So, to answer your question directly: without a source of spare parts how could one keep a fleet of '190s serviceable?

berg417448
08-29-2007, 02:49 PM
The French built and used some FW-190s under the designation NC900.
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=62055

Waldo.Pepper
08-29-2007, 03:55 PM
France also used some Ju-188.

DuxCorvan
08-29-2007, 04:24 PM
Spain (CASA and Hispano Aviación) bought the license to build 109 frames after Spanish Civil War. The supply of engines was cut by Germany's defeat, and they had to resource to other engines... including Rolls&Royce Merlin!

Spain also had several He 112B. In 1944, they shot down an US P-38 which violated Spanish airspace over Morocco and negated to abandon it immediately or land -Allied planes which landed in Spain were usually held till the end of the war.

http://www.afwing.com/images/he112/000.jpg

190s were never used in Spain, though Dr. Tank worked here for some years in the 50s.

Kurfurst__
08-30-2007, 02:10 AM
Finnland was of course the most noteworthy user of the original Me 109Gs well past 1945. IIRC they kept them using until the 50s. Most were late Bf 109G-6s with Erla canopy.

Yugoslavia also used some original Bf 109G-2s after the war. One of them is displayed in the Belgrade air musuem (it's in pretty good shape, too!). The fun thing is that Yugoslavia was also using Hurricanes, Yakovlev 3s, Il-2s, Spit Vs, P-47s at the same time... a truely international fighter force !

France was a major post-war user of German stuff of all sorts.. He 177s, FW 190s, as well as Panthers. Not to mention ex Waffen SS members forced into the Foreign Legion. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif During the Vietnam war, some US GIs found out Charlie is sometimes using... yes, an MG 34. Try to guess how it found it's way there.

The Swiss also used a number of imported German produced planes, they acquired from 1939 onwards. Here's one of them :

http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Performance_tests/109E_SwissJ347/J-347.jpg
Bf 109E-3, WNr. 2404, 'J-347' in Dübendorf, during the winter of 1939/1940, shortly after it`s delivery to Switzerland. (via Philippe Osché)

http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Performance_tests/1...sJ347/109E_J347.html (http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Performance_tests/109E_SwissJ347/109E_J347.html)

Low_Flyer_MkVb
08-30-2007, 02:35 AM
Forced? By circumstance or the French? Genuinely curious.

Back on topic, the only post-war 190's I know of were, as mentioned by FPSOLKOR, Turkish - aqquired during the war. There are some nice pics of them on the net flying in formation with Spitfires.

luftluuver
08-30-2007, 02:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkVb:
Forced? By circumstance or the French? Genuinely curious. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>More like being able to disappear as the FFL did not questions.

luftluuver
08-30-2007, 02:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkVb:
Back on topic, the only post-war 190's I know of were, as mentioned by FPSOLKOR, Turkish - aqquired during the war. There are some nice pics of them on the net flying in formation with Spitfires. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

France - NC.900 [2]
In the immediate post-war period, the French Armee de l'Air operated FW 190 fighters (French designation NC.900). 65 FW 190s were built in 1945 and 1946 by the Société Nationale de Construction Aéronautiques du Centre (S.N.C.A.C) at Cravant. Between 600 and 900 people worked at Cravant, and the facility was also known as camp 918. Cravant had been a Luftwaffe repair facility, and 127 FW 190 fuselages and 162 wings of FW 190 A-4s, A-5s, and A-8s were captured there by the Allies in October 1944. About 100 BMW 801s were found at Dordogne, and the French planned to assemble 125, under the designation AACr-6, or NC.900. The first NC.900 was flown on 1 March 1945, but there were many problems with the new aircraft. Sabotaged airframe parts and the use of hastily recycled metals meant many aircraft were of poor quality. Armee de l'Air FW 190s only saw service for a few years, before more modern fighters were acquired. The principal operator of the NC.900 was GC 111/5 Normandie Niemen, which received just fourteen NC.900s. They flew with the unit for 18 months. A majority of the remaining 51 NC.900s were used by the CEV (centre d'essais en vol) at Brétigny. The final flight by a French NC.900 was on 22 June 1949.

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/foreign.htm

Low_Flyer_MkVb
08-30-2007, 02:52 AM
Thank 'ee kindly, sir http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

MrMojok
08-30-2007, 02:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
The Fw-190 wasn't used because the bar at the base of the armored-glass windscreen blocked the view forward.

Cheers,

RD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well done, sir-- you owe me a new monitor.

gorillasika
08-30-2007, 03:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkVb:
Forced? By circumstance or the French? Genuinely curious. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Choices were prison or foreign legion. Interestingly some of the Germans also swapped sides in Vietnam from the French side to the Viet minh's side as hinted in an earlier post.

Bremspropeller
08-30-2007, 05:15 AM
Quite some of them, yeah.
After it got obvious the french didn't give a feck about human rights, either.

Xiolablu3
08-30-2007, 12:24 PM
The Israeli Airforce was desperate for any fighter aircraft in the late 40's while at war with Egypt.

They managed to put togther a few SPitfire LF IX's, P51's and very poor S199's which were Bf109 parts slung togther with a Jumo Heinkel He111 engine IIRC.

The resulting S199 was apparantly a terrible aircraft and had very bad flying characteristics.

They were only used because they could not get their hands on fighter aircraft, so they got hold of anything they could lay their hands on.

Enforcer572005
08-30-2007, 05:22 PM
If you want to see some of these planes, watch the excellent 1969 movie "Battle of Britian", which you probably already have. All those 109s were Merlin powered Spanish Buchons, which were flown mostly by high time Spanish AF pilots.
Most of the few 109s still flying are those, but they are even more treacherous to fly than the original 109s. Unlike the Avia S-199s the Isrealis used though, they had very high performance.

Regarding the SS troops in the Foreign Legion, they were EXTREMELY effective against the communist Viet Minh, and were greatly feared by them. THey had a reputation for being rather ruthless, which is about the only way one can effectively deal with such a fanatical, dedicated insurgency.

The French public apparently got all indignant over their govt. using their former enemies to do their dirty work and take the risks, so they were withdrawn as a result.

So the French public felt much better about having their own sons and fathers do the fighting and suffering, It wasn't long until they had lost badly with terrible casualties.....but everybody felt all warm and gooey all over, so it was worth it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

They apparently never saw "The Dirty Dozen".

Jaws2002
08-30-2007, 05:29 PM
I think the Romanians kept their BF-109'G's till 1948.

Low_Flyer_MkVb
08-30-2007, 06:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gorillasika:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkVb:
Forced? By circumstance or the French? Genuinely curious. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Choices were prison or foreign legion. Interestingly some of the Germans also swapped sides in Vietnam from the French side to the Viet minh's side as hinted in an earlier post. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got a source, please?

luftluuver
08-30-2007, 06:34 PM
After the fall of the Third Reich, Germans (long a major presence in the legion) accounted for roughly sixty percent of the manpower,[citation needed] with many former German troops coming directly from World War II POW camps (Bernard B. Fall, a leading expert on French Indochina and author of Street without Joy and Hell in a Very Small Place, disputes this figure and claims that at most, Germans only made up thirty-five percent of the Legion in the post-WWII period).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Foreign_Legion

Low_Flyer_MkVb
08-30-2007, 06:38 PM
Thanks, Luft', will plough through the links there tomorrow. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Blutarski2004
08-31-2007, 05:44 AM
The French also flew Ju-52s in Indochina.

WN_Barbarossa
08-31-2007, 05:56 AM
Long ago, I saw a pic of a Yugoslavian FW-190 with red stars. But I can't remember where.

Heliopause
08-31-2007, 06:28 AM
The Fi 156 "Storch" flown in French IndoChina as the Morane Saulnier M.S. 500

Warrington_Wolf
08-31-2007, 01:37 PM
Thanks guys, I never knew that the French operated the FW-190. The reason that I asked was because most of the TV documentries and most of the books that I have read say that the FW-190 was one of the best fighter aircraft in WW2, yet it seemed to disappear completely after WW2 where as the Me-109 seemed to soldier on in various air forces.

Grendel-B
09-01-2007, 02:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Warrington_Wolf:
Thanks guys, I never knew that the French operated the FW-190. The reason that I asked was because most of the TV documentries and most of the books that I have read say that the FW-190 was one of the best fighter aircraft in WW2, yet it seemed to disappear completely after WW2 where as the Me-109 seemed to soldier on in various air forces. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it is certainly not hard to find the reasons why it was like this. The nation that built the planes and had all the factories, support elements and such, had lost a war and was disarmed. Building weapons was forbidden and armanent factories were scrapped.

And now FW190s were sold outside Germany. And most 190 factories were in Germany.

Meanwhile, quite a lot of 109s were sold to different nations and there was also quite a few factories building them outside Germany.

So, after the war, there were much more 109s in foreign air forces then 190s. Quite easy to keep on using what you got and there just weren't any 190s to purchase. And who would purchase used 190s, when there was no spares or any sort of support available?