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snipa1977
09-04-2005, 09:04 AM
Hi,

I read that the next patch might include new maps, and if so, i was wondering if anyone knew which these might be?

I am about to write a 49th FG campaign and was wondering if a Western New Guinea map is planned? Also a Rabaul map? I was currently planning to use the existing New Guinea map if not...

Would be grateful if saomeone could let me know!

Ta

snipa1977
09-04-2005, 09:04 AM
Hi,

I read that the next patch might include new maps, and if so, i was wondering if anyone knew which these might be?

I am about to write a 49th FG campaign and was wondering if a Western New Guinea map is planned? Also a Rabaul map? I was currently planning to use the existing New Guinea map if not...

Would be grateful if saomeone could let me know!

Ta

VFS-214_Hawk
09-04-2005, 12:35 PM
Yeah, who can make us the "Slot" map????


who who who, please please please!!!!!
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

jds1978
09-04-2005, 01:57 PM
oooh...lets see....i'm currently waiting (with fingers crossed) for any or all of

1. "The Slot"
2. China/Burma/India
3. The Phillipines

pretty please, with suger on top?

huggy87
09-04-2005, 09:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jds1978:
oooh...lets see....i'm currently waiting (with fingers crossed) for any or all of

1. "The Slot"
2. China/Burma/India
3. The Phillipines

pretty please, with suger on top? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


All good choices, but I would love a southeast england map and a spitfire mk 1 most of all.

VFS-214_Hawk
09-05-2005, 10:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by huggy87:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jds1978:
oooh...lets see....i'm currently waiting (with fingers crossed) for any or all of

1. "The Slot"
2. China/Burma/India
3. The Phillipines

pretty please, with suger on top? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


All good choices, but I would love a southeast england map and a spitfire mk 1 most of all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Enough ETO stuff, we need PTO stuff

ianboys
09-05-2005, 10:50 AM
You paying? No? Thought not.

So I'll make the maps that interest me.

Thanks.

MEGILE
09-05-2005, 10:54 AM
no doubt... IL2 just appeard on my pc.

Arm_slinger
09-05-2005, 12:26 PM
Slapped in the mush by Ian http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

darkhorizon11
09-05-2005, 06:40 PM
"Also pay attention that markered with * are going in the beginning only for Russian market on the separate CD (with the campaigns, new ground objects, maps, etc). Their life on the western market still not defined completely."


Hate to burst your bubble but the new maps I think will only be on the Russian Add-on...
At least initially...

VFS-214_Hawk
09-05-2005, 06:54 PM
Did I hit a sore spot? Sure I will pay....give me a game worth paying for and I will pay $$$$$$$ for it.

I am the stupid idiot that use to pay $400 a month to fly WarBirds. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Heck, I'll give ya $45 for just the Slot map if its good enough.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Kuna15
09-05-2005, 06:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by snipa1977:
Hi,

I read that the next patch might include new maps, and if so, i was wondering if anyone knew which these might be?

I am about to write a 49th FG campaign and was wondering if a Western New Guinea map is planned? Also a Rabaul map? I was currently planning to use the existing New Guinea map if not...

Would be grateful if saomeone could let me know!

Ta </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
Next new small patch that we plan to release in the end of August is v4.02 and will contains:

- Changes and tunes in new FM.
- Yak-7B, 1942 with M-105PF engine
- P-47D boosted for use of 150 octan (almost P-47M performance).


Please read all above with great attention that do not have misunderstanding in future. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...


05.sep.2005:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by skyiced:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What we need is already programmed and operating in wonderwoman, and it would be a big enhancement to getting the most of the new FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wonderwomen is total ****. that its in the game is absolute bs, i hate thats its enabled on most the servers and is my honest opinion is a thorn in the side of this simulator. and stands firm against what the sim is so great for. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You better run and catch that bus because you missed it...... the fact that this sim is so scalable.... for such a wide array of tastes and skill sets and still with a quality simming experience is what makes it stand out and what it is known for.. I think the diversity is good and only helps the sim community and puts $$ in 1Cs pockets... which is what most of us want so they can keep cranking out these stellar hits....

Back on target..... OK.. no beating around the bush...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
Next new small patch that we plan to release in the end of August is v4.02 and will contains:

- Changes and tunes in new FM.
- Yak-7B, 1942 with M-105PF engine
- P-47D boosted for use of 150 octan (almost P-47M performance).
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oleg you know how we are... it is now Sept. 2 and as you know there are a few thousand folks worldwide haunting this forum looking for that patch but no one wants to say anything......LMAO........ We sit waiting with baited breath.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


There is found one bug which allow to cheat in climb in one type of the aictraft. So we are working with it currently and when its solved - we will release the patch. Maybe one week more we need from now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is in short lines everything we should know. If someone knows more please let us know too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As the things are now, 4.02 should be out around 12.sep.

VF17_Gunter
09-13-2005, 02:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You paying? No? Thought not.

So I'll make the maps that interest me.

Thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ianboys, we have pay for a Pacific sim too and i'm really sorry to say that but, for now we're still waiting for a correct Guadalcanal map (all battle took place in the west not in the Malaita area.
We're still waiting solomons island map ! don't forget that 80% of corsair victories took place there. We need a map with Rabaul, Bougainville, Vella Lavella, Choiseul, Rendova.......

If you don't want to do that map please find another modeller !

PF customers really need it !

Regards

Nimits
09-13-2005, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ianboys:
You paying? No? Thought not.

So I'll make the maps that interest me.

Thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For more PTO planes and maps? Yes! For sure! Absolutely! I'd pay $30 just for a decent Slot or Philipines map, or $50 for a flyable TBF. For more ETO or Russian Front stuff? I doubt it.

SaQSoN
09-13-2005, 04:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> For more PTO planes and maps? Yes! For sure! Absolutely! I'd pay $30 just for a decent Slot or Philipines map, or $50 for a flyable TBF. For more ETO or Russian Front stuff? I doubt it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Multiplay both numbers by 100, and may be we will talk about it...

LEBillfish
09-13-2005, 04:58 PM
ianboys, SaQSon;

First off I hope you know both the admiration and respect for the work I have of Oleg, 1C, & third party developers. Without question, a lot of talent there, and the products 10fold worth what was paid for them or more.

In kind realize that I fully understand what a business is, and that though it is ideal to do work that is a labor of love, love doesn't fill the belly and requires renumeration. Also know I understand what are reasonable rates for designers, and contrary to many understand that nothing takes an hour, and 100hrs.+ to even thousands can be required to do even minor tasks the vast amount of work difficult to tell often in the end product to the untrained eye.


That said, both your posts are out of line, you should both be above such ill mannered posts to those who YOU know simply do not understand the amount of work or sacrifice. Don't want to say? peachy....Get tired of the whines and gripes? understandable.....Expect it to change? don't hold your breath......

But if you want to hammer on those who in truth praise your work by craving more.....Then time to step back a while before you make it NOT worth it. You being in a position to know and understand can drive customers/players off quicker then any other customer.

Delete your posts and I will mine. Thanks.

LEXX_Luthor
09-13-2005, 05:13 PM
Well said LEBillfish http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

ianboys:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
You paying? No? Thought not.

So I'll make the maps that interest me.

Thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
We have long hoped you and Oleg would make Map Addon CD for sale. You can't get away with whining about not charging us for maps. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If you (SaQSoN) listened to this webboard you will find things that will make map Pacific map making easy for you -- no buildings, no roads, no rivers, simplified coastline...csThor explained the difficulties in making coastlines. Stop thinking of map making as Artist Purity and start thinking of map making as <span class="ev_code_yellow">computer game content</span>...this is a computer game product or have we "Forgotten?"

Oleg's recent blank 50km Online *ARCADE GAME* dogfight maps show Oleg and Team can't say maps can't be made if they are not "perfect correct maps" The Stalingrad map was used in great 3rd Party campaigns like Starhoy's campaigns. So it works, Perfect Volga or Less Than Perfect Volga. Requests for more maps is an offer for you (SaQSoN and IanBoys) to get rich quick through computer game content!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif And Oleg too$$


LEBillfish:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But if you want to hammer on those who in truth praise your work by craving more.....Then time to step back a while before you make it NOT worth it. You being in a position to know and understand can drive customers/players off quicker then any other customer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

VFS-214_Hawk
09-13-2005, 06:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arm_slinger:
Slapped in the mush by Ian http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

CUSTOMERS SLAP BACK!

I just purchased a car. The car came only with an AM radio. Why?, the maker of the car only like AM stations. The customers loved the car but requested that the maker produce and "SALE" AM and FM radios so those that loved FM stations can enjoy thier type of radio. The car makers laughed and accused the customer of:

"You paying? No? Thought not."

"So I'll make the" radios "that interest me."

"Thanks."

What the auto maker was too danmed stupid to understand is that the customer/ or some customers are willing to pay for FM station radios.

The customers decided to go to a third party radio maker to get an FM radio to put in the autos. The problem was that the "custom radio" would not work due to some sort of "coding" in the auto's wiring system. Eventually the customers lost intrest in the auto and decided to purchase his next auto from another auto maker.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

jarink
09-13-2005, 07:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ianboys:
You paying? No? Thought not.

So I'll make the maps that interest me.

Thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lovely elitist attitude. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I have no doubt there are several people here in this community that could equal or better your work if given the opportunity.

I know much has been said about Oleg's apparent belief that the mapmaking tools are 'so difficult' that he doesn't want them released to 3rd party dev. Sorry, I don't believe a word of it. If a sharp someone had enough reason (love of the game or dare I say financial incentive) to figure it out, it would be figured out! You aren't interested in the Pacific, ianboys? Well, I don't think that's enough of a reason to deny the market something it's obviously demanding, at least if you're in the entertainment business. People will go elsewhere to get what they want.

Guess what? I think most people (you know, the customers have NO INTEREST in the Murmansk map (gee, tons of intense air battles happened there! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif ) and next to none in the Kurland map. They're both nicely done, no doubt, but how many missions or campaigns have been uploaded for either of them since the 4.01 release? I know of *one*, vpmedia's Kurland campaign. Release a decent "Slot" map and we'll see whose interested in what.

Reading this thread makes me wonder if any of those map naysayers have ever heard or understood the phrase "Lead, follow or get out of the way".

This may have sounded awfully rant-like, but I would like to close in saying that I have immense respect for the work done by the map authors. I am more concerned about the attitudes displayed here more than anything. They are not representative of the attitudes towards their customers for which 1C has become known and I find the change disturbing.

LEXX_Luthor
09-13-2005, 07:18 PM
Not so elitest, just abandoned in a way. I wish there were a way for Oleg to get UBI to permit Map Addon CDs, and sell them Online or through the mail -- you DO NOT NEED a box+manual sitting on shelf at EB Games or Game Stop stores to stock CDs with only game maps!!!

LEXX_Luthor
09-13-2005, 07:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Sadly now others are getting out of line.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You mean ianboys and SaQS? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

We have "real" maps, and we have small "fake" Online dogfight maps that don't need any kind of realism and don't cause Oleg to lose Artistic Reputation. I just wish they could make a 2000km wide Celebes to Solomons map simplified like the Online dogfight maps are simplified. They could call it "2000km Online Solomons" and bury it at the bottom of the map list with the other Online dogfight maps if they are panicked about losing Artistic Reputation in making simple but very large Offline campaign maps. Just make something that aircraft can OPERATE over in a long campaign, and would put our Perfect Aircraft Models in the PF game to use. This is computer game content. Game content is not the same as Pure Art for Art's sake. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Or, its possible that UBI has closed the door on any further PF map development, no matter how "simplified." It is getting time to move onto BoB and Beyond -- of which the Polish and France addon packs I am most interested in.

SaQSoN
09-13-2005, 09:24 PM
Now listen to this.

Everything, I mean, everything, that can be made for this game, requires TIME and EFFORTS. Those are LIMITED resourses. So, each person HAVE RIGHT to manage them in the way he/she wants. You blame Ian that he wants to spend his OWN spare time in the way he likes? WHO ARE YOU to do that?
You want him to change his mind and do, what YOU want? No problem. PAY HIM. I just hinted you, how much it would cost. Nothing more, nothing less.
Same from my side. I do modelling for living. I really, really want to build something for the Pacific, since I am also interested in this conflict history. But I CAN NOT AFFORD that. Because, if I will do it for free, I'll starve. And that's not the future I suppose for me.
And same for the 1C and MG. They, may be, would like to do an addon for the Pacific, but, unfortunately, this project does not have any hopes in commercial sence. Few dosens of PF-dedicated forum patrons are not enough to cover the development and publishing costs, unless they will buy the game for around $5000 per copy. I doubt, anyone from you can afford that.
Now, if you think different - there is no problem. Gether some $100-200 thousadns and invest them into making of such an addon. Pay us for building maps and planes the said price and everything else - is yours (marketing, risks, profits, debts, etc.)
So? Anyone?

LEXX_Luthor
09-13-2005, 09:54 PM
Thanks SaQS. We always wanted to PAY You, Oleg, and Ianboys money for new PF maps, so you don't have to yell about being Starving Artists.

How much money would you (Ianboys,Oleg,SaQSoN) charge us to make large 1000km PF maps with the following simplifications...we will try to find the numbers of patrons...more than "a few dozen."

No Roads
No Rivers
No Airfields
No Palm Trees
No Building Objects
Very Simplified Coastline (smooth)

....and possible 1/2 scale maps

Talk to us...we paid you and Oleg money, and we want to pay more money.

SaQSoN
09-13-2005, 10:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">How much money would you charge us </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think, I already told you. An add-on development costs minimum $100K.
If you want one single map - talk to Ian. But, I also pointed an approximate ammount ($3K/map) above. Add also something for Oleg to insert it. Though, it is not that simple. Oleg also have to approve and allow the project, which may be the hardest part.

jarink
09-13-2005, 10:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SaQSoN:
Everything, I mean, everything, that can be made for this game, requires TIME and EFFORTS. Those are LIMITED resourses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. So why not dedicate those resources to those projects that are most in demand?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You want him to change his mind and do, what YOU want? No problem. PAY HIM. I just hinted you, how much it would cost. Nothing more, nothing less. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Few dosens of PF-dedicated forum patrons are not enough to cover the development and publishing costs, unless they will buy the game for around $5000 per copy. I doubt, anyone from you can afford that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't recall anyone mentioning anything about paying thousands of dollars for the three maps included in the 4.01 patch. Maybe 1C did, I don't know, but for whatever reasons 1C/UBI decided to release them for free instead of a paid add-on.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And same for the 1C and MG. They, may be, would like to do an addon for the Pacific, but, unfortunately, this project does not have any hopes in commercial sence. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here we definitley agree, unfortunately. This whole argument is probably moot, although I don't like the implications it has for the future.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So, each person HAVE RIGHT to manage them in the way he/she wants. You blame Ian that he wants to spend his OWN spare time in the way he likes? WHO ARE YOU to do that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When he's one of the few that have access to make maps, yes. I think as one of those very few he has an obligation to do what's in the best interests of the community, not himself. Of course, everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

I still think this sort of "I'll do what I want and pfft what anyone else wants" attitude does not bode well for maps in BoB or future expansion. Suppose the BoB mapmakers only were interested in Scotland?

I think the Oleg should seriously consider allowing 3rd party licensing of the map making tools by those interested. The current situation of PF map development being in the hands of a few (with apparently little control or management from 1C) is a bad situation for the community at large, in my opinion.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Now, if you think different - there is no problem. Gether some $100-200 thousadns and invest them into making of such an addon. Pay us for building maps and planes the said price and everything else - is yours (marketing, risks, profits, debts, etc.)
So? Anyone? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, we can't. Oleg has stated that he is not willing to release the map making tools. If he did (and PF had a way to incorporate 3rd party maps), this would not even be an issue, because someone would have done the maps everyone wants already.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Same from my side. I do modelling for living. I really, really want to build something for the Pacific, since I am also interested in this conflict history. But I CAN NOT AFFORD that. Because, if I will do it for free, I'll starve. And that's not the future I suppose for me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand your sentiments, SaQSoN, and I don't want to suggest that you starve for the betterment of the PF community! If you could, please try and see the situation from the 'other' side. many of us love this game and would like to see it made better. We would be willing to pay for many of the updates, planes and maps if we could. But since we have no means to make these add-ons ourselves, we tend to get frustrated when someone says "No", especially when it's followed by "Because I don't care what you think."

LEXX_Luthor
09-13-2005, 10:46 PM
Okay SaQSoN. That sounds like a good start. Maps must be inserted by Oleg and tested we know. What we request may not fit Artistic Perfection, but gameplay content.

Well fellas, how many are we? Just a few dozen?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Oleg also have to approve and allow the project, which may be the hardest part. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> True...true... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif Most likely he wants to forget the whole thing and move onto BoB and Beyond, and I feel the same way, but it will be 5 years before Oleg comes back to Pacific, Grummann permitting.

shinden1974
09-13-2005, 10:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Okay SaQSoN. That sounds like a good start. Maps must be inserted by Oleg and tested we know. What we request may not fit Artistic Perfection, but gameplay content.

Well fellas, how many are we? Just a few dozen?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Oleg also have to approve and allow the project, which may be the hardest part. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
True...true... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif Most likely he wants to forget about the whole thing and move onto BoB and Beyond, and I kinda feel the same way, but it will be 5 years before Oleg comes back to Pacific. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

5 years and a big if...sigh!

but not to lose heart pacific fans, many things are in our favor...

1)Oleg has mentioned letting out 3d modelling tools (or something like that) even if only in a limited basis. this means others maybe willing to share licensing fees and so forth and get us some grumman stuff. This openess may lead to other things as well.

2)The PTO has slept and reawakened several times during it's life. AOTP,PAW,CFS2,PF all had some time between them...5 years sounds about right...

3)it isn't written in stone that Oleg is the last and only flight sim developer (it's on very hard wood...), the maker of EAW and PAW is still around (did strike fighters right?), who knows if he can pick up the torch again someday.

LEXX_Luthor
09-13-2005, 11:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">3)it isn't written in stone that Oleg is the last and only flight sim developer (it's on very hard wood...), the maker of EAW and PAW is still around (did strike fighters right?), who knows if he can pick up the torch again someday. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
NO!!!! TK is busy doing World War 1 right now. Don't get in our way shinden. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">2)The PTO has slept and reawakened several times during it's life. AOTP,PAW,CFS2,PF all had some time between them...5 years sounds about right... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
WW1 is about 10-15 year cycle.

csThor
09-13-2005, 11:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I think as one of those very few he has an obligation to do what's in the best interests of the community, not himself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh it's this way now? Ian has to do what a few vocal folks on an web-based board want? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
Just because this thread appeared on the PF board does that mean everyone is equally interested in the PTO? That the Eastern Front is uninteresting for everyone? Don't even go there - assuming such things is usually well off the mark.


In the past I did dare to critizise the 3rd Party modellers for choosing "odd" planes instead of useful ones (meaning: planes that are useful not only for online DF fetishists) and I got a lot of flames for that. If the plane modellers get this much freedom of choice why not Ian?

Still people are greatly underestimating the difficulty of the map making process. For Kurland we were three folks collecting information before the actual work on the map even started - and that still took months (and wasn't finished until the map was nearly ready). It's not a simple "Give me the tool and you'll have a map of XYZ within a week."

LEXX_Luthor
09-14-2005, 12:57 AM
Yes, but we need something like a Pacific 2000km dogfight map, and they can call it "Online Solomons" to hide from Art Critics the map's true role of Offline campaign use (Art Critics will never think of looking at the Online dogfight maps). The following less than Artist Perfect simplifications may be used...

No Roads
No Rivers
No Airfields
No Palm Trees
No Building Objects
Very Simple Coastlines (smooth)
perhaps 1/2 scale as SaQSoN once suggested
If needed, possibly flat terrain...no elevation.

The most beautiful thing is 3rd Party modders can easily use Full Mission Builder to populate simple unpopulated Pacific maps with Objects on the maps and offer them as mission template downloads as Early 1942, Late 1943, etc... Best of all, if we use Test Runways instead of the map maker placed FB International Airports, we can design Pacific maps with correct airfield locations in time -- the reason the PF team had to make two (2) seperate Guadacanal maps.

VF17_Gunter
09-14-2005, 01:53 AM
Yes Ianboys please just do a Solomon map with coastline that's all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif make rivers, forest as object like test runway.
I' dont ask for new planes, just a single solomon map playable online is it too much ?

ianboys
09-14-2005, 05:50 AM
OK here's the score.

In the last 2 months I have stated some 20 times that the Pacific is Luthier's project, not mine. So there are some maps missing? Contact him. You can't? Well at least I'm here still discussing my work.

Secondly, many Amerians want the PTO, that's understandable. However if you look on the German and Russian forums you'll see more people want the Eastern Front. You guys aren't the only players, you know. You think nobody wants Murmansk? What about the virtual JG5 squadrons? No81 Sqn? 2 GSAP? Plenty want it, their Sqn names just don't happen to start with a V, that's all.

Thirdly - I made Murmansk at Oleg's request because he asked me not to do 2 other maps I was interested in because of conflicts with his plans. I do what Oleg tells me, I'm not stupid. I made Kurland because CSThor had done so much preparatory work and it was interesting for Russian, German and French (NN) players. Why aren't there campaigns? Wait for Ostfront.

Fourthly - I haven't been paid for any maps. I am now working on another (Western Germany 1945) and advising/training on 3 others made by other teams. The PTO doesn't interest me at all - why would I spend 14 months (Murmansk) or 9 months (Kurland) of my life doing something I don't enjoy? Would you spend a year of your life cross-stitching if someone asked you? A thousand hours?

Once again - you want more PTO, ask Luthier. You don't feel you got what you paid for with PF, ask Luthier. You want a better PTO map from me, arrange something commercial and we can talk about it.

But if I'm doing it free and for fun (and this is a GAME we play for FUN) then I'll do something I enjoy, sorry for the inconvenience.

Sweet dreams.

Ian

ianboys
09-14-2005, 05:54 AM
Let's just reiterate, thats ANOTHER 4 free maps you'll be getting.

MINTZ2
09-14-2005, 06:16 AM
Gee, I feel like a redheaded step-child.


VF-17 Mintz.

Popey109
09-14-2005, 06:32 AM
If only we had some proper maps!...PTO mite be more interesting too you. No one that I know is ungrateful for anything you€ve done for FB+PF (I€m waiting patently for Ost front http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif ) snipa1977 just asked if Anyone was working on ANY PTO maps€¦I€m sure if Oleg asked anyone in the west if they€d be interested in producing some PTO maps and gave Them the tools to do it, than no one would bother you again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif not for PTO maps anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ianboys
09-14-2005, 08:11 AM
Here are some pictures of the WiP GermanyOnline map:

http://forums.netwings.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1663

Nimits
09-14-2005, 08:21 AM
Ian, I persoanlly don't fault for making what interests you (especially for free, sheesh). Just don't jumpt at those begging Oleg & Co (or Luthier, or whoever) to impart some breath to the nearly dead PF with some new maps (and planes). If Oleg would give the green light (and perhaps a little encouragement) to some more PTO maps (and planes), it seems to my mind that someone could be found to do the work to make them (even more so if they could be paid for their work . . .). I think there's alot more PTO fans than these boards reflect, but all the problems and ommissions with PF failed to attract them from (or caused them to return to) EAW, Strike Fighters, CFS2, CFS3, etc. Actually finish the PTO with more maps and planes (and forgetting Grumman for a minute, we still need flyable Nakajima B5N and B6N, Yokusaku D4Y, Douglass TBD, and Curtiss SB2C, Mogami CA and County class CAs, Colorado and Hie class BBs, etc, etc, and so forth), and I think you would have a commercial success on your hands.

Anyway, Ian, we're (or at least I'm) not trying to pressure you specifically to make a PTO map. If we could convert you to the light side, that'd be great, but the ultimate responsibilty lies with Oleg, Luthier, and Ubi; that's who were trying to influence into making some Slot and CBI maps, even if they are "online."

LEXX_Luthor
09-14-2005, 08:26 AM
ianboys:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You want a better PTO map from me, arrange something commercial and we can talk about it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lets Talk.

To Simplify this for the map makers we can use the following simplifications...and make a more realistic and immersive Pacific terrain (PF maps now look like Western Europe)...

No Roads
No Rivers...and so No River Plains cutting out the jungle
No Airfields
No Palm Trees
No Building Objects
Very Simple Coastlines (smooth)
Interior of Islands complete jungle ... (no open areas)
perhaps 1/2 scale
* If needed, possibly flat terrain...no elevation. I hate this Option though. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Ian, your Kurland Map has Simplified outer area for Online Dogfight...make Pacific all simplified "dogfight" without the other terrain features -- this is for large 1000km Offline use and maybe Online too. We need multiple island archipelagos to OPERATE aircraft over 1000km or 2000km. Many PF maps are 1000km (Hawaii, Iwo, Midway, etc...) so map size is not a limitation like we used to be told. Its filling up Pacific maps with Western European Objects, Giant Airfields, and Western European River Plains that limit maps and map makers ability....

Palm Tree Objects are best destroyed with FMB destruction slider to save framerate -- but this only works for Offline, so just don't put any Palm Tree Objects in the map then we don't have to load the destroyed locations in the mission file.

Simplify...!!! Trade Western Europe map detail for large Pacific map size.

Vacillator
09-14-2005, 08:38 AM
Ianboys, I for one am very happy that you're doing what you're interested in, because ETO (and particularly East Front) is my main area of interest as well. PTO for me is an added extra.

Anyway thanks for what you have done already and what you are doing now.

Now if only I could get the QMB to use all of the maps, but that's an old chestnut and nothing to do with this thread http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif .

csThor
09-14-2005, 08:40 AM
Lexx ... does Ian write Chinese? Greek? Old Roman?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">By Ian Boys:
The PTO doesn't interest me at all - why would I spend 14 months (Murmansk) or 9 months (Kurland) of my life doing something I don't enjoy? Would you spend a year of your life cross-stitching if someone asked you? A thousand hours? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What exactly is not comprehensible here?

Secondly you forget about the usefulness of such a map. Placing bridges and roads is not just a graphical gimmick, but also touches AI modelling of ground objects so where is the usefulness of such a map when there's nothing at all? Is it just another gimmick for online DF fetishists??

Bottom line is:

a) Ian doesn't care about the PTO and doesn't know where Luthier is hiding
b) A commercial project is out of question as noone is going to invest the necessary amount of money (especially not Ubisoft)
c) It's not known if a total lack of any structures, roads and bridges has a negative influence on ground AI behavior. And spending a year only to realize that it wouldn't work ... well ... then you have to be a real enthusiast.

Equilizer
09-14-2005, 08:55 AM
Didn't PF sell the worst of all of Oleg's combat sims?

LEXX_Luthor
09-14-2005, 09:00 AM
Thanks csThor. I read this....

ianboys:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You want a better PTO map from me, arrange something commercial and we can talk about it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


csThor:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Placing bridges and roads is not just a graphical gimmick, but also touches AI modelling of ground objects so where is the usefulness of such a map when there's nothing at all? Is it just another gimmick for online DF fetishists?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh please no !! I am hoping for large Pacific maps for Offline campaign use, and I think you know this.

There was very little overland travel in Pacific, but there was some...New Guinea's Kokoda trail for example, but AI ground units don't need bridges and roads if there are no rivers. This is correct and you know it as a map maker. This is where Oleg's customers are experiencing a severe disconect from Oleg and Team. Talk to us. Listen to us (the Offliners http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). Don't be afraid of the people you sell product to.

Large Pacific maps require the same simplifications as Oleg Maddox's Online dogfight game maps for Western Europe, but much larger in size to allow very long range. Its significant that Japanese and Ussian Pacific aircraft had about 4 times the range of German and Russian aircraft on the solid land of the Eastern Front.

csThor, we can see how *opposite* Pacific and Eastern Front warfare are. One is a land war fought on land and air, the other an ocean war fought on water and air. Pacific ground units generally were dropped (by ship or plane in some cases) near their battle zones, without the mass troop movement across terrain as in Eastern Front.

I too ~love~ Eastern Front, and I never was interested in Pacific except for Japanese vs Soviet possibilities, until PF was releaced. Now I ~love~ Pacific too, and Oleg's FB engine Perfect for modeling the Pacific...if the map makers used a different set of rules than those used for making European maps.

Popey109
09-14-2005, 09:05 AM
NO one in this Thread has asked Ian too Model anything in the PTO...people have asked if SOME ONE would model somthing for the PTO. I know others have (in the past) asked Ian to model PTO maps...but thats becouse Ian...has the tools http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ianboys
09-14-2005, 09:08 AM
Hi all,

Please realise that my first post was in answer to a post that has been deleted or edited. I did not answer like that to the posts you see.

CsT: the main issue is that Ubi won't permit a map pack to be sold. Nobody is asking them for investment, just permission. But Oleg doesn't want incompatibility between players, which is understandable. I'd prefer to be paid for maps, if only to shut the wife up but I've always made maps on the basis that I won't be paid for them.

I do live in hope that people will buy ostfront if only to support map-making.

As for Luthier - I do actualy know what he's doing and if it works out I think it will be great.

ianboys
09-14-2005, 09:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Popey109:
NO one in this Thread has asked Ian too Model anything in the PTO...people have asked if SOME ONE would model somthing for the PTO. I know others have (in the past) asked Ian to model PTO maps...but thats becouse Ian...has the tools http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, there was a specific post.

csThor
09-14-2005, 09:09 AM
Lexx ... you're greatly simplifying the issue.

The first obstacle is Ubisoft as they own the rights of the whole line which means without their OK there is no commercial release (see the issue of the russian addon).

Secondly Ubisoft is the only company which could invest the necessary amount of money since other investors would be put off by the rights owned by Ubisoft - they could not release such a package without Ubi's consent (and I dare to say that's pretty **** impossible ATM).

Third obstacle is Maddox Games since they still have to program the AI stuff and incorporate the map into the code. Since they're not going to do it for a damp handshake this also means financial involvement (see point 2).

Your "quest" is surely looking worthwhile from your point of view, but if we're realistic this would end in a battle against windmills - simply because we (the customers, or at least those who would be interested in such a commercial release) don't mean squat to the beancounters in the management of Ubisoft! They did get burned with PF (read: copyright issue and rumored low sales) so they won't do anythign to get burned further.

My 0,02 " ...

EDIT: Ian - see this post. I do not divide Ubisoft from commercial stuff as I had enough time to get to know the thought processes of these folks. If they don't invest - nobody's going to. The publishers operate in the way of "If I can't/won't, nobody will ..."

Popey109
09-14-2005, 09:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ianboys:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Popey109:
NO one in this Thread has asked Ian too Model anything in the PTO...people have asked if SOME ONE would model somthing for the PTO. I know others have (in the past) asked Ian to model PTO maps...but thats becouse Ian...has the tools http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, there was a specific post. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry Ian, I didnt see that post...and yes I will be buying your add-on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif the campaigns sound to be the most emersive to date. I like flying everywhere http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

ianboys
09-14-2005, 09:38 AM
I love you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
09-14-2005, 09:43 AM
Yes, like I posted at the top of the last page, UBI may have possibly shut the door on any PF maps. Funny I was the first to mention this possibility, but instead I get insulted by these map makers. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ianboys:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But Oleg doesn't want incompatibility between players, which is understandable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
For Offline play this is not an issue. csThor is also a fan of Offline play...but why did he try to insult my map idea above?

csThor:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Is it just another gimmick for online DF fetishists?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Offline players need new simplified and/or abstract large Offline maps, and Offline players are not effected by ianboy's "incompatibility between players."

There seems to be Contradictions being posted here by Oleg's Team. Not Sure. We don't know.

Stop insulting FB/PF fans, start talking to them. Don't FEAR us (ianboys too).

Idea:: If Oleg can make those little abstract blank terrain Online Dogfight Maps that came with PF releace, he can make some 1000km "dogfight" maps with simple flat jungle islands and water. Called Euro Dogfight, UBI would never know they are for Pacific Offline campaign. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If that's the best we can do fine, it gives something to fly Oleg Maddox's aircraft over.

csThor
09-14-2005, 09:46 AM
Simply because I don't care about non-historic maps. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
09-14-2005, 09:52 AM
Yes, I too would prefer historic, but if its too hard to for Oleg's Team to make, non-historic would have to do.

However, flying across an entire map using 1/5 of fuel in a fighter is less realistic than a non-historic map.

LEXX_Luthor
09-14-2005, 10:01 AM
For historical maps, the following simplifications would help make more realistic Pacific maps...

No Roads
No Bridges
No Rivers...and so No European River Plains cutting out the jungle
No Airfields
No Palm Trees
No Building Objects
Very Simple Coastlines (smooth)
Interior of Islands complete jungle ... (no open areas)
perhaps 1/2 scale
* If needed, possibly flat terrain...no elevation. I hate this Option though.

I added No Bridges (forgot about that). As csThor helped us understand, AI don't need Roads to travel except to cross Bridges over Rivers. But if there are No Rivers there need be No Bridges and so No Roads. All AI ground units can travel on land under jungle texture. Most Pacific Rivers could not be seen from the air, covered with jungle, so this simplification would greatly ease map development of historic Pacific maps.

No Airfields are needed for Historic reasons. Oleg's Team cannot put every airfield at its correct time of construction. But we can place Test Runways, as bad as they look, in the places at the correct month or year. This is why the PF Team was forced to make two (2) Guadacanal maps.

csThor
09-14-2005, 10:09 AM
To make my point clearer:

I think that simplified maps make offline use harder since they require more work to be useful. Less sophisticated maps are usually a good thing for dogfight servers since they do not affect the performance of the hardware as much as say the full Kurland Map. But since I have little to no positive feelings for pure DF servers (please note the diplomatic choice of words http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif ) I am always rather wary of such developments. We had too many of these in the history of Il-2 - too many odd plane choices being the most obvious one.

LEXX_Luthor
09-14-2005, 01:16 PM
Thanks Thor, I see your point. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif And, thanks for the deeply reasoning response.

csThor:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I think that simplified maps make offline use harder since they require more work to be useful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is where the wildly enthusiastic 3rd Parties comes into the scene to populate the basic Simplified large Pacific campaign maps and offering them for download to the larger community. I hope you are aware of the huge popularity of 3rd Party map downloads in the older and far less quality flight sims. Combine that 3rd Party map enthusiasm with Oleg's standards-setting base quality, and you have captured far more flight sim interest than we already have. Imagine if we did have simple but large Pacific campaign maps that we ourselves populate using FMB and share with others...Pacific Fighters is missing mostly maps (far more so than Ships or Torpedo bombers). Its the poor maps that are killing PF right now, and caused me to give up on any campaign idea I had, except maybe a strategically limited carriers ~vs~ carriers or carrier ~vs~ limited island map campaign.

We will eagerly exchange FB European Map Detail for Pacific Map Size. Pacific really is barren compared to Europe. Only near the coast and beaches did any land battles and ground support take place, for the most part (99.9%) as well the airfields to be bombed were near the coasts. Beyond that, so much of Pacific air warfare was directed against ships on the open water. As one poster said here, the Pacific Ocean was the Roads and transport lanes of the Pacific theater.

Thanks~

|CoB|_Spectre
09-14-2005, 01:40 PM
Ianboys wrote:
"Secondly, many Amerians want the PTO, that's understandable. However if you look on the German and Russian forums you'll see more people want the Eastern Front. You guys aren't the only players, you know".

That's true but Americans weren't the only ones fighting for the Allies in the PTO. There are no exclusively British, Australian, Dutch or New Zealand forums to poll, but their roles in the PTO/CBI were no less important. I would have presumed, wrongly it seems, being from the UK, you would have had more interest in those theaters. Not a flame, just an observation.

That being said, your stated interest in the Eastern Front is what drives your labor of love. Your work as been of the highest quality and its contribution appreciated. It is our misfortune that you are not similarly motivated by the "other" part of the war. Luthier has made but one post on these forums that I recall on the occasion of Oleg's first auto accident and he did not leave a forwarding address. Your cryptic, "As for Luthier - I do actualy know what he's doing and if it works out I think it will be great" invokes many interpretations on the part of the beholder.

I've been along on this ride since the IL-2 demo release, spent my money on all the releases, and have my preferences, as do we all, but I no longer anxiously await any map, any aircraft, or any modification. We have what we have, with all its beauty, bumps and warts. If we get something extra, so much the better, but I can, and do, play with the game as it stands. BoB is so far away and so much can happen in the interim, that I hold no expectation of it other than to see how it's received by the players if and when it is released. Keep up the good work as you see fit do it. Just don't get frustrated when players prevail on you to do what we can't do for ourselves and 1C won't, for whatever reason.

Saunders1953
09-14-2005, 02:13 PM
Ianboys:

1st: Anyone (partly) named after my second son can't be all bad! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

2nd: Ostfront looks to be a real winner. I'm especially glad that we'll be able to taxi in from dispersal areas. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

3rd: Are you serious about producing a PTO map for the right price--SaQSon implied $3K or 5K? If so, I am more than willing to foot a decent share of that price-- aquarter or maybe more. I realize that it would need Oleg's approval, but again, if you are serious, I would do my best to raise the rest from those in this community that are interested--Lexx, how about it? I realize that operating in this way in may cause problems, because those that paid for the development would feel cheated if it then was released to the general population for free, but that personally wouldn't bother me. I'd consider it my contribution to this community.

So, is it in fact possible to commission a map in this way?

Kuna15
09-14-2005, 03:04 PM
ian, Germany map looks really nice. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

shinden1974
09-14-2005, 03:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ianboys:
Hi all,

Please realise that my first post was in answer to a post that has been deleted or edited. I did not answer like that to the posts you see.

CsT: the main issue is that Ubi won't permit a map pack to be sold. Nobody is asking them for investment, just permission. But Oleg doesn't want incompatibility between players, which is understandable. I'd prefer to be paid for maps, if only to shut the wife up but I've always made maps on the basis that I won't be paid for them.

I do live in hope that people will buy ostfront if only to support map-making.

As for Luthier - I do actualy know what he's doing and if it works out I think it will be great. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Roger and out. My misunderstanding. all of my posts dealing with you will be deleted promptly (where possible). Late apologies...and by the way...great job on those Kurland and Murmansk maps.

jarink
09-14-2005, 03:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by csThor:
Oh it's this way now? Ian has to do what a few vocal folks on an web-based board want? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
Just because this thread appeared on the PF board does that mean everyone is equally interested in the PTO? That the Eastern Front is uninteresting for everyone? Don't even go there - assuming such things is usually well off the mark. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't say he had to, just that I feel it's in the best interests of the community as a whole for the few devs out there (and, by extension, 1C and UBI) to create products that the community (read:market) demand. It's the way a free market is supposed to work. If players (new and old) don't see the sim expanding in a direction that they are interested in, they will leave, possibly for good (meaning lower sales of future products).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In the past I did dare to critizise the 3rd Party modellers for choosing "odd" planes instead of useful ones (meaning: planes that are useful not only for online DF fetishists) and I got a lot of flames for that. If the plane modellers get this much freedom of choice why not Ian? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the simple reason (I can't believe I have to mention this AGAIN) that the map making tools are not availble to everyone. 3D models can be made with a variety of commercially available programs and submitted to 1C. Maps can't.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Still people are greatly underestimating the difficulty of the map making process. For Kurland we were three folks collecting information before the actual work on the map even started - and that still took months (and wasn't finished until the map was nearly ready). It's not a simple "Give me the tool and you'll have a map of XYZ within a week." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said it wasn't hard or a lengthy process. I just said if the tools were made available, one way or another, the community would produce the maps that the community wants, stimulating interest and longevity to the sim. Ianboys says he did it for free. Who's to say others wouldn't have done something similar if given the chance?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ianboys:
In the last 2 months I have stated some 20 times that the Pacific is Luthier's project, not mine. So there are some maps missing? Contact him. You can't? Well at least I'm here still discussing my work.

Secondly, many Amerians want the PTO, that's understandable. However if you look on the German and Russian forums you'll see more people want the Eastern Front. You guys aren't the only players, you know. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for a much better explanantion than what you had in your original post. If you had posted this information instead of an offhand remark that was very open to (mis)interpretation, I doubt this thread would have gone 3 pages. I suspected, but did not know, that the Kurland and Murmansk maps were something Oleg wanted. As you pointed out, since everything has to be approved and added to the game by 1C, doing maps Oleg had no interest in would be an exercise in frustration and wasted effort.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I do live in hope that people will buy ostfront if only to support map-making. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This isn't the fabled Russian expansion, is it? If/when it's available, I'll certainly buy it or put it on my Christmas list!


Sorry if I gave anyone offense here; now how about a big group hug? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

LEXX_Luthor
09-14-2005, 03:29 PM
I hear ya Saunders. We would all have to agree on what is in the map before we sign up. I would rather see a situation where we buy maps Online or something, but of course we mush prevent our own piracy.

For two years I have been suggesting that Oleg offer Map Addon CDs for sale, possibly Online or mail order, although UBI may not want to at this late date, although it will be 5 years before Oleg returns to Pacific, so some simplified large Offline campaign type Pacific maps could be useful.

We will have to find more than a few dozen to pay, or perhaps a few can join and purchase a liscence to the map making tool, instructions, and permission to use it for making simple maps to offer the community -- I have little interest in making complicated or "traditional" maps with all the European features simply because they are not needed for basic Pacific Theater gameplay, but would be interested in making simple maps (with my low skill levels of course!!). Also, even if UBI liked the idea, they have already reserved BoB and The Meds maps, although Pacific may be free. As somebody posted earlier, Oleg may let another 3rd Party in on adding stuff to FB/PF. I just hope this 3rd Party can communicate with the Offline community here.

shinden1974
09-14-2005, 03:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:

NO!!!! TK is busy doing World War 1 right now. Don't get in our way shinden. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Holy ****! Didn't pick up strike fighters (sorry TK) because I had little interest in modern flying anymore...so had no idea. WWI...gonna be good, I was elated to find out he was still around after the microprose collapse.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">WW1 is about 10-15 year cycle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no doubt, though back in the old days, it seemed as if there was a new WWI sim every other year. MTO...now there's neglect! even EAW passed it up.

LEXX_Luthor
09-14-2005, 03:31 PM
WW1 Inside Peek, by TK ~&gt; http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=10&sid=a...5e95855f3fee84ab8a44 (http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=10&amp;sid=a046e7001b965e95855f3fee84a b8a44)

StrikeFighters is not exactly modern flying, with the 3rd Party ancient crapp jet mods...F-94 and MiG-17PFU are sweet.

Chuck_Older
09-14-2005, 03:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by snipa1977:
Hi,

I read that the next patch might include new maps, and if so, i was wondering if anyone knew which these might be?

I am about to write a 49th FG campaign and was wondering if a Western New Guinea map is planned? Also a Rabaul map? I was currently planning to use the existing New Guinea map if not...

Would be grateful if saomeone could let me know!

Ta </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You read wrong, then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Next update will address some issues in-game

VFS-214_Hawk
09-14-2005, 03:42 PM
Ian

I made a post at simHQ about PTO maps and you. There you informed us that it was not you but luthier. That was that and it ended there. However, where ever I see a post about map making...I always add me wanting a Slot map. I have made some remarks about needing more PTO maps rather than ETO maps especially since BoB is right around the corner.

***edited***

Now, with that said...I still have everybit respect for you and your skills as I ever had. We all get pissed from time to time for some reason or another and I am sure you probably are just tired of guys asking you about PTO maps. I know you guys work hard and can not do thing for free unless there is money somewhere. There are guys out there that may be able to do this as a hobby. I for one would not mind paying for a map add-on for more PTO maps. Areas on a large map can be ignored but a small map just doesnt leave any options.


Refering to the PTO, Pacific Fighters is a great game but it lacks options and I will not purchase any other games. Like you, if it does not hold my attention, I go elswhere which is where I will have to go if PF is not updated.

No disrespect at all to anyone.....just frustration that a great game lacks PTO interests.

Basicly all Oleg did with Pacific FIghters was tease the he11 out of us PTO fans.

&lt;S&gt; to Everyone http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Zeus-cat
09-14-2005, 03:47 PM
ianboys,

I like the screenshots of the map. Very nice sir.

Zeus-cat

shinden1974
09-14-2005, 03:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VFS-214_Hawk:
Ian

Now regarding this thread. In the beginning I see nothing that is rude to anyone untill you made your crude remark about:

"You paying? No? Thought not.

So I'll make the maps that interest me.

Thanks."

That was uncalled for at that time and nowhere in the posts above yours has anything been edited or it would say so. Neither did anyone say anything to deserve your reply.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It might have been deleted, my deleted posts are gone, and I see no evidence that they were ever there. It sure looked bad so I went to bat for you. but now I think the whole thing is a misunderstanding.

AH_BlueKestral
09-14-2005, 04:25 PM
~S~ all. This message is to Ian Boys. I am not able to come up with the money that is needed for a PTO map. I do what I can to help promote all ADD on designers. See my latest post on FB add ons in Oleg's ready room. I posted a link to your SimHQ interview there.Since we are on the subject of financial opportunities. How much will Ostfront be? If you have any input can you see that it is easy to purchase in The States. Thank you all for over 1.9GB of fun! Oh yeah, Is there a release date set?

Chuck_Older
09-14-2005, 04:55 PM
If you edit quickly enough, an "editted" message may, or may not, be shown

VFS-214_Hawk
09-14-2005, 08:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shinden1974:
It might have been deleted, my deleted posts are gone, and I see no evidence that they were ever there. It sure looked bad so I went to bat for you. but now I think the whole thing is a misunderstanding. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As well Chuck

Interesting, I will now edit my last post http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif !!!!

VFS-214_Hawk
09-14-2005, 08:35 PM
This is what we be talking about !!!!

I just wish Ian had a twin brother that liked PTO stuff. I really do like the aircraft spawn point idea. That is why I use the Midway map for my Barakoma airfield map.

http://forums.netwings.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1663

Fox_3
09-15-2005, 04:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jarink:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ianboys:
You paying? No? Thought not.

So I'll make the maps that interest me.

Thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lovely elitist attitude. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I have no doubt there are several people here in this community that could equal or better your work if given the opportunity.

I know much has been said about Oleg's apparent belief that the mapmaking tools are 'so difficult' that he doesn't want them released to 3rd party dev. Sorry, I don't believe a word of it. If a sharp someone had enough reason (love of the game or dare I say financial incentive) to figure it out, it would be figured out! You aren't interested in the Pacific, ianboys? Well, I don't think that's enough of a reason to deny the market something it's obviously demanding, at least if you're in the entertainment business. People will go elsewhere to get what they want.

Guess what? I think most people (you know, the customers have NO INTEREST in the Murmansk map (gee, tons of intense air battles happened there! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif ) and next to none in the Kurland map. They're both nicely done, no doubt, but how many missions or campaigns have been uploaded for either of them since the 4.01 release? I know of *one*, vpmedia's Kurland campaign. Release a decent "Slot" map and we'll see whose interested in what.

Reading this thread makes me wonder if any of those map naysayers have ever heard or understood the phrase "Lead, follow or get out of the way".

This may have sounded awfully rant-like, but I would like to close in saying that I have immense respect for the work done by the map authors. I am more concerned about the attitudes displayed here more than anything. They are not representative of the attitudes towards their customers for which 1C has become known and I find the change disturbing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I've just found five missions that use the Kurland Autumn map over at Netwings. There is also a couple using the Murmansk map on the same page.

Nimits
09-15-2005, 05:21 PM
Luthier has posted in the ready room that a Luzon map is planned . . .