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View Full Version : Ki-21 damage...modelling of toughness, or ammunition?



XyZspineZyX
01-14-2007, 12:12 PM
Did a little arcade action. I forgot how much fun that can be

I can take down 4 Ki-21 with a full ammo load in a P-40B. Fairly accurate given history actually

But I wonder- is the plane too tough, or is the weapon payload on the P-40B just too weak to do much (whether or not that is accurate is another thing)?

Some pics:

1) head on pass. Seems I know my convergance. nice spread of hits, multiples in each engine, not just each nacelle, multiples in each wing root as well. Results: one fuel leak

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/dam1.jpg

2) I settle in close and let the thing have it from about 100m. I riddle the wing that's leaking fuel in the center to outer panels- not even a leak, let alone fire. Odd thing, too- gunner was reported as headshot, but he was still tracking me with the gun

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/dam3.jpg

3) Gunner is finally reported as down, as was this time. Previous headshot report must have come from this gunner, as ALL other crew bailed out later. but the odd thing- strikes on the starboard side light a fuselage fire AND a port fuel tank fire. At first i thought this was the old "other wing shows the fire" bug come back, but then I considered that the strikes were not on the starboard wing or wing root, but rather the starboard fuselage. You can see the two seperate fires in the pic, easily

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/dam4.jpg

Another test, I was aiming for the crew. I missed this guy's head, but he's down for the count. Question- how big are the 'hit boxes' for a headshot?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/dam2.jpg


So, what do you think? Weak armament versus structural strength? Assymetrical fire bug is back? What about the hits going through the fuselage being required to start the fire? The pic with the "I'm RTBing!" blurb- is there just an engine fire not being graphically shown?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/clarkchampion.jpg
Flower of Scotland, will we see your like again?

XyZspineZyX
01-14-2007, 12:12 PM
Did a little arcade action. I forgot how much fun that can be

I can take down 4 Ki-21 with a full ammo load in a P-40B. Fairly accurate given history actually

But I wonder- is the plane too tough, or is the weapon payload on the P-40B just too weak to do much (whether or not that is accurate is another thing)?

Some pics:

1) head on pass. Seems I know my convergance. nice spread of hits, multiples in each engine, not just each nacelle, multiples in each wing root as well. Results: one fuel leak

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/dam1.jpg

2) I settle in close and let the thing have it from about 100m. I riddle the wing that's leaking fuel in the center to outer panels- not even a leak, let alone fire. Odd thing, too- gunner was reported as headshot, but he was still tracking me with the gun

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/dam3.jpg

3) Gunner is finally reported as down, as was this time. Previous headshot report must have come from this gunner, as ALL other crew bailed out later. but the odd thing- strikes on the starboard side light a fuselage fire AND a port fuel tank fire. At first i thought this was the old "other wing shows the fire" bug come back, but then I considered that the strikes were not on the starboard wing or wing root, but rather the starboard fuselage. You can see the two seperate fires in the pic, easily

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/dam4.jpg

Another test, I was aiming for the crew. I missed this guy's head, but he's down for the count. Question- how big are the 'hit boxes' for a headshot?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/dam2.jpg


So, what do you think? Weak armament versus structural strength? Assymetrical fire bug is back? What about the hits going through the fuselage being required to start the fire? The pic with the "I'm RTBing!" blurb- is there just an engine fire not being graphically shown?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/clarkchampion.jpg
Flower of Scotland, will we see your like again?

LEBillfish
01-14-2007, 01:28 PM
Chuck, last night I alone in a coop took down 4 in a Buffalo.....Are you perhaps wasting ammo on critically damaged planes?

In kind, though no idea if it is modeled the Ki-21-II should have self sealing tanks, exaust flame/spark supressors and a CO2 fuel tank fire extinguisher system.

21-I I'd bet had modestly protected fuel tanks as well.

Lastly they had a LOT of armor glass placed around and bullet proofing......They were by no means the "G3M" gas cans you might expect.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK">"Does this make my Hien look big?"
"I love my Ha-40's"
"She loves teh Swallow"
"Don't call me cho-cho san"
</span>

XyZspineZyX
01-14-2007, 01:42 PM
Maybe I wasn't being clear- I can take down four in a P-40B http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm asking some specific questions though, such as- is the graphic representation of fire missing in some cases? Is the assymetrical fire bug back?

As you can see in the first pic, I have scored a nice compact series of strikes in one pass, on no fewr than four important areas: both engines, both wing roots.

An inconsequential fuel leak was the result http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That was one pass, not multiples http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif This is Ki-21, not Ki-21 II, 100% for sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Second pic- engine does not show fire or smoke, nore does wing, after a pretty nice pasting. Is this a bug in which simply fire is not shown? plane is RTBing...pilot is not hit, it is the rear gunner who took it on the chin, literally. Helluva mess I bet. but they are also bailing out...could be a controls shot out issue. But I've never seen an engine fire with this plane. This pic makes me wonder: is the fire visual just missing? Is the engine actually on fire, it's just not showing?

Third pic- wingroot fire! YESSS! But my rounds went through the fuselage to do it...in pic one, I get nice hits there too- no fires. Odd? Possible bug? I dunno. Odd enough for me to wonder what's happening

Fourth pic- hitbox for gunner is too big and/or in wrong place. You can see the arrow is about a yard in front of his face, not a hit

Trouble is not knocking down Ki-21s. Trouble is what I'm seeing. Where have I said "Ki-21 is flying gas tank?" Ki-21 should be as prone to fire as any other comparbly protected plane. I can light those on fire, too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So I wonder- is the problem just that no fire is graphically represented in the sim for some things on the Ki-21?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/clarkchampion.jpg
Flower of Scotland, will we see your like again?

DKoor
01-14-2007, 02:56 PM
Problem with FB is that planes rarely burn the way they are supposed to... fuel leak all right, but when you try to lit up that 'leak' that proves to be near impossible task many times. http://mission4today.com/images/smiles/102.gif

I've flew a mission Bf-109E vs. Yak-1 and Yak had 3 fuel leaks at the same time, when I count all that he had it would be perhaps around 5. But had he ignited? Nah... Specifically hit with 7,62 in the tanks but...
By any means not limited only to Yak.

Really weird.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<hr class="ev_code_hr" />http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5638/g14hartmannlh1.jpg (http://airwarfare.com/mediawiki-1.4.5/index.php?title=Main_Page)<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">@ STURMOVIK?: 1946 - coming November 2006 in ETO and Australia

XyZspineZyX
01-14-2007, 03:45 PM
Well, sometimes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif On bombers in particular, I find repreated hits on an engine or tank will give that nice burny feeling

I just made an interesting track about the Ki-21. The following pics are from it


I can hit the engines no trouble http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But they don't even stop working, let alone catch fire. I just wtached a Ki-21 hugging the ground, all the while the blurb is declaring "Im of fire! I'm fire!". No fire

I think that one one hand, no graphical representation of fire is displayed for engine damage, and on the other, the ki-21 engines are VERY resilient to damage. Accurate or not? I don't know. I do know I have a track from these pics, which show me hitting engines at will, pouring lead into them. They don;t light up, and they don't seize up, they just keep working. I got this kill from a PK- I finally hit his head, although I've transfixed his heart with no ill efects http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/grab0011.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/grab0012.jpg


if you notice- these pics are not two angles of the same group of strikes- they are two seperate groups on the same plane- note the angle of the arrows that pierce the engine in both pics- one is from above and behind, the other is from dead six

I wonder if somebody would like a look at these tracks, and if they could tell me about what they show. What I see is horrendous damage to the starboard engine- no engine failure or fire. I also bulls-eye the other engine nicely- no ill effect

On the other hand, I'm getting rear gunner kills from shots that don't come near the gunner

I'd like input on these so we can determine if it's a bug or not, so it can be reported if so

Oh- I also have a DB3F track that shows what i feel is the assymetrical fire bug- I hit the right engine- left one bursts into flame<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/clarkchampion.jpg
Flower of Scotland, will we see your like again?

VMF-214_HaVoK
01-14-2007, 04:02 PM
In all fairness I expect you to get the same effect on pretty much all aircraft reguardless of the ammo load. Im afraid the damage model we got it the best this engine can muster. Its not like Oleg and crew deliberatly cripple certain aircraft or make some uber tuff, but rather engine limitations. It is seven or so years old.

We may see some minor improvements here and there in patches but usually it just means something else is messed up. We will not see huge improvements to damage modeling until SoW: BoB and I bet Oleg would agree.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/vmfhavok/theBlackSheep.jpg

VMF-214 The Original Black Sheep Squadron of the IL-2 series are currently recruiting dedicated and mature pilots. Visit us at http://vmf214blacksheep.com/

XyZspineZyX
01-14-2007, 04:11 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

That is why I made one with the Ki-21, and one with an old plane like the DB3F http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Send me your e-mail, Havok, and I'll shoot you the tracks

Then tell me the DM for each plane is roughly similar http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I've shot LOTS of bullets into lots of planes in this sim. I'm like a cat- I can't read, but I can compare http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/clarkchampion.jpg
Flower of Scotland, will we see your like again?

VW-IceFire
01-14-2007, 05:46 PM
Chuck....I've found something similar with the B6N. You can pound away at them with a Hellcat and no fuel leaks or fires. The tails and wings come off after a decent amount of punishment.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/icefire-tempestv.jpg
Find my missions at Flying Legends (http://www.flying-legends.net/php/downloads/downloads.php?cat_id=19) and Mission4Today.com (http://www.mission4today.com).

Tater-SW-
01-14-2007, 08:25 PM
Make sure you send pics and tracks to 1C. Seems bogus. Perhaps the Sally got the Grumman engines, and the Grummans got the Sally's engines? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

msalama
01-14-2007, 11:40 PM
Eh... I'm not sure if this of assistance, but here's (http://koti.welho.com/msalama/P-39_vs_Ki-21.ntrk) me flying the Airacobra and flaming one w/ a shortish head-on burst nevertheless. Caught fire pretty easily IMHO...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hippies FTW!

JG53Frankyboy
01-15-2007, 03:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
.........
21-I I'd bet had modestly protected fuel tanks as well.

Lastly they had a LOT of armor glass placed around and bullet proofing......They were by no means the "G3M" gas cans you might expect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

according to Francillon the 21-Ia had no tank protection at all , the Ib some.
i think we have a I-a in game.

the "galshouse" on the back was made of armor glass ?? heavy, wouldnt it ??


about its DM. gunners, pilots can be easy killed, also RTB massage appears fast - just to set them on fire is not easy , espacially if you compare it to the SB-2 or even an IL-4/DB-3 !

XyZspineZyX
01-15-2007, 05:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
Eh... I'm not sure if this of assistance, but here's (http://koti.welho.com/msalama/P-39_vs_Ki-21.ntrk) me flying the Airacobra and flaming one w/ a shortish head-on burst nevertheless. Caught fire pretty easily IMHO... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif You realise there's a 37mm <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">CANNON</span> in the Airacobra, right?

Please re-read the thread http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You have missed the entire point

Taking one of the most devastating aerial weapons in the game, and using that as your example really doesn't fit the bill here

Make a new track- and use the P-40B this time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Then we can talk about what we see in both our tracks<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/clarkchampion.jpg
Flower of Scotland, will we see your like again?

msalama
01-15-2007, 07:35 AM
You realize that I of course never _used_ it, huh? Did you even watch the track?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hippies FTW!

XyZspineZyX
01-15-2007, 08:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
You realize that I of course never _used_ it, huh? Did you even watch the track? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are missing the point, and no, didn't watch, I am at work http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am not saying that I can't set the Ki-21 on fire. You, and probably others, are looking at this, and you think my message is:

"Ki-21 will not catch fire"

Well my pics SHOW it on fire, right? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I have seen in arcade mode blurbs that declare the Ki-21 is on fire when it *visually is not on fire* Does this mean that there is a bug that makes the fire graphic missing?

Your P-39 has a different weapons package, in a different area on the plane

You can see my multiple hits in my above pics, clearly, correct? I did not photoshop those pics, by the way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My question is NOT "Why won't Ki-21 burn for me?!?!?!"

I am asking several questions, and that isn't one of them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


My questions:
1) Why do headshots get reported when there was no headshot? That gunner was never hit

2) is fire detected by the sim, and not shown graphically in the display?

3) is this aircraft-weapon dependant? IE: will your P-39 make enough firepower, while my P-40B not?

4) why does repeated heavy hits on an engine produce no engine failure?

5) Why do shots that go through the right fuselage make fire on the lft wing, but fire that plasters the left wing produce nothing, or just a fuel leak?

6) is the assymetrical fire bug back? My DB-3 track shows this, BTW

Some of my questions indicate that the Ki-21 is penalised!

But it is NOT about "why can't I set Ki-21s on fire", or even "why can't I shoot Ki-21s down"

That is not the point and that is not my basis for discussion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My point is:

Are these things bugs with the Ki-21? Do I have the evidence needed to make a good Bug Report? What am I really seeing?

It's not about getting kills http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif I am seeing WACKY things on the Ki-21<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/clarkchampion.jpg
Flower of Scotland, will we see your like again?

msalama
01-15-2007, 08:57 AM
OK Chuck, fair enough. S!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hippies FTW!

JG53Frankyboy
01-15-2007, 09:02 AM
anyway, the most Airacobras(except the two Qs), when not using the hubcanon, have the same firepower as a P-40B/C.............. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

msalama
01-15-2007, 11:13 AM
OK, here's (http://koti.welho.com/msalama/P-40B_vs_Ki-21-I.ntrk) a P-40B vs. Ki-21-I .ntrk for your perusal. Please note that I provide this for reference only - just as was the case w/ the hotly-debated http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Cobra track above, too, BTW - i.e. I _don't_ have an opinion one way or another about the alleged DM weirdness of the bird myself!

PS. Yep. Shoddy work. I'm the world's worst P-40 pilot y'see http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hippies FTW!

msalama
01-15-2007, 11:23 AM
PPS. The Cobra in the 1st track was an N-1.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hippies FTW!

XyZspineZyX
01-15-2007, 03:58 PM
I have tried 10 times to make a reply, and logged in 4 times now

short and sweet:

you don't test the results I see with a P-40 by using a p-39 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I do this stuff as a Pro- you want repeatability in testing, no exceptions

I have brought up many issues. One is being addressed

The only replies I have gotten are to suggest why I am wrong

I have made this thread to see if anyone can help me decide what's happening in what I am seeing. Nobody is interested in seeing MY track, which was the whole point of the thread- here's what I am seeing. But the focus is not on that

It is on proving Chris wrong

if you folks want me to shut up, get the guts to just say so

if you folks want to help see if these things might need to be brought to the attention of the developer, then start helping! I do not see one single iota of effort to help me examine the issue; what I do see is a whole lot of reasons I can't be seeing what I'm seeing, when nobody has bothered to even see for themselves

Any of this sound fair to any of you?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/clarkchampion.jpg
Flower of Scotland, will we see your like again?

DKoor
01-15-2007, 05:14 PM
Something is wrong with the sim damage model.
Anyone can easily check that for instance you can pump l0ads of Ki-43 12,7s in Beaufighters engine... without according damage. Best chances to shot it down are:
1-PK
2-just shoot at the wing (right or left - pick one) untill you run out of ammo, Beau will probably crash

You can forget about setting it on fire with Oscar... I've never set it on fire and I shot down more than 20 of them in Burma campaign.
Now funny thing is when I think about it, I should saw its wing clean off with the amount of lead I pumped in it. We are not dealing with solid granite here? Then again... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Constant 12,7 fire, lets say 10 rounds in the engine at close range (any angle) must inflict total damage to any engine in this sim.

Cid I think that although you have started this about Ki-21 it doesn't really have to do with 21 specifically, 'cos DM's are simply messed up and this is by no means limited to Ki-21 only.

ps. I wont spread my semi OT spam here any more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<hr class="ev_code_hr" />http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5638/g14hartmannlh1.jpg (http://airwarfare.com/mediawiki-1.4.5/index.php?title=Main_Page)<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">@ STURMOVIK?: 1946 - coming November 2006 in ETO and Australia

msalama
01-15-2007, 11:34 PM
Chris,

I at least am _not_ trying to prove you wrong (or otherwise). I supplied both tracks for reference only, and the 2nd one is conforming to the criteria you set (i.e. a P-40B against a Ki-21-I). The first one was just a test, and I chose the Cobra because I'm more experienced with it.

So again I hope these tracks are of use. If not, then please ignore them. That's all I've got to say about the matter.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hippies FTW!

msalama
01-16-2007, 12:00 AM
...and hey, please post your tracks to me @ msalama(at)netti.fi - I'd like to take a look at them just out of curiosity. Because yes, the bird is indeed a tough one to down...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hippies FTW!

msalama
01-16-2007, 08:42 AM
OK, one final track here (http://koti.welho.com/msalama/P-40B_vs_Ki-21-I_2.ntrk). A P-40B vs. a Ki-21-I again - shoddy work, but nevertheless succeeded in flaming his port wing tank this time...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hippies FTW!

msalama
01-16-2007, 10:16 AM
But yes, there's something wrong w/ the Ki-21-I at least. Dunno 'bout the Mk.II, though.

Took up a Sturmo this time just to see what happens when you put some heavy cannon violence on their butts (i.e. did a QMB Sturmo Series 3 vs. 4 Ki-21s). Well, what happened was that when you sawed off their right wing the _port_ engine instantly stopped, too!

Hmmm...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hippies FTW!

DustyBarrels77
01-16-2007, 04:35 PM
I think british and american mgs are weaker then ever in the history of the game making us go from 200-250 convergence to 100-110 convergence and still most times wont kill in one very close 2-3 burst bnz pass from engine to tail or wingtip to wingtip...

But when flying italian and japanese a 1 sec burst to cease a engine pk start a fire or snap cables, mgs only same for russian and german mgs firing only. To me the japanese cannons seem stronger then ever and british russian german 20mm all seem weakened, But still 1 burst killers 3-5 strikes.

i dont think the ki21 is taking more damage then the betty or he111 seems weapons changes then theres the flukey iron dms like the 190 he111 ju88 beaufighter la5 yaks, i thought its a weapon bug not dm, while usn ac wings and p38 tail snap off like zekes use to in 1 long range hit.

only oleg and the 1c dev team can say what they done the readme doesnt list it or maybe its just the new energy state global fm change is effecting online play differently.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:M98REgPM-RPbEM:http://www.me-air-company.de/crash_gross/005.jpg

XyZspineZyX
01-18-2007, 10:00 AM
Haven't had much time to get online the last few days

Will try to send track tonight, msalama<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/clarkchampion.jpg
Flower of Scotland, will we see your like again?

Tater-SW-
01-18-2007, 10:20 AM
Chris, you'll notice in the other thread about fire modelling that you are 100% correct. There is something really screwy going on with shots to 1 part of a plane starting a fire on the other side, etc.

msalama
01-18-2007, 10:35 AM
OK, thanks Chris. Will follow this case w/ interest. S!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hippies FTW!

mynameisroland
01-18-2007, 10:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DustyBarrels77:
I think british and american mgs are weaker then ever in the history of the game making us go from 200-250 convergence to 100-110 convergence and still most times wont kill in one very close 2-3 burst bnz pass from engine to tail or wingtip to wingtip...

But when flying italian and japanese a 1 sec burst to cease a engine pk start a fire or snap cables, mgs only same for russian and german mgs firing only. To me the japanese cannons seem stronger then ever and british russian german 20mm all seem weakened, But still 1 burst killers 3-5 strikes.

i dont think the ki21 is taking more damage then the betty or he111 seems weapons changes then theres the flukey iron dms like the 190 he111 ju88 beaufighter la5 yaks, i thought its a weapon bug not dm, while usn ac wings and p38 tail snap off like zekes use to in 1 long range hit.

only oleg and the 1c dev team can say what they done the readme doesnt list it or maybe its just the new energy state global fm change is effecting online play differently. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hayate have you ever tested German Italian or Japanese Mgs ?

They are all weaker than British US or Russian ones.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y294/mynameisroland/boemherTemp.jpg